The early Golden Age of Science Fiction started about the time when the Weird Tales tradition ended. John W. Campbell's and A. E. van Vogt's writings sounded very different from H. P. Lovecraft, C. A. Smith, and Robert E. Howard. Less literary? Less poetic? Less ... what? Less pessimistic? These two groups of writers appear very separate, never touched intellectually with each other, and seemed to be completely unaware of each other? A solid impregnable wall between them? Lovecraft and Smith evolved from a background E. A. Poe, et al., the others coming distinctly from Jules Verne, and H. G. Wells?

John W. Campbell wrote excellent visionary stories like "Twilight", "Night", and "Who Goes There?". A. E. van Vogt wrote "The Black Destroyer", "Discord in Scarlet" (both later included in the novel The Voyage of the Space Beagle), "The Monster", "Vault of the Beast", The Weapon Shops of Isher and others, notable for their dreamlike ecstatic sense of wonder.
Later, Arthur C. Clarke followed with Childhood's End, The City and the Stars, and Rendezvous with Rama.
They shared in common a certain optimistic view of Man's potential transformation in the vast cosmic perspective.

Lovecraft died too early, but C. A. Smith may have had occasion to read Campbell, Vogt, and even Clarke. Yet, I have not heard of that mentioned. Were they worlds apart, intellectually and emotionally? I am sure many of the latter writers's spanning ideas would have fascinated both Lovecraft and Smith.

I have been a fan of the movie The Thing (1981) since I saw it for the first time, so, naturally, I read "Who Goes There?" and was very dissapointed. For my money, even the movie The Thing (2011) is much better than the original Campbell´s story.

I prefer classic horror stories to those dealing with science fiction but I really liked a half-forgotten SF novel called "Out Of The Silence" (1919) by Erle Cox.
[www.goodreads.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16 Aug 16 | 02:25PM by Minicthulhu.

The Thing (1981) is a powerful movie. (I like John Carpenter's early films, especially The Fog.) The 1951 version, The Thing From Another World, is good too, although the monster isn't very impressive. I have not seen the 2011 remake.

I thought "Who Goes There?" was well written. Working differently from the movies. The ending is especially creepy, with its devastating implication of how the alien spreads in an unstoppable way. The story has a philosophical horror tension, not present in the films.

I tend to agree with you on this. While some of Campbell's works are almost the stereotypical science fiction of the era, others are powerful mood pieces (such as "Twilight"), and "Who Goes There?" lands neatly between the two poles, with many of the strengths of each.

Incidentally, the 2011 film was not a "remake", but rather a "prequel"... though it used so much of the material from the original, redone with modern effects and a new set of actors, that it could well be seen as a sort of remake. It also lacked nearly all the tension and creativity of the Carpenter film. Ah, well....

jdworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While some of
> Campbell's works are almost the stereotypical
> science fiction of the era, others are powerful
> mood pieces (such as "Twilight"), and "Who Goes
> There?" lands neatly between the two poles, with
> many of the strengths of each.

I would agree. I have The Best of John W. Campbell (1976), and found most of the stories rather dry reading, mildly enjoyable. Still, even those contain some feverish visions, and I am glad to have read them.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Thing (1981) is a powerful movie. (I like John
> Carpenter's early films, especially The Fog.) The
> 1951 version, The Thing From Another World, is
> good too, although the monster isn't very
> impressive. I have not seen the 2011 remake.

It is not a remake of the 1981 film. At one point in the 1981 movie, Kurt Russell and his cronies fly by helicopter to the Norwegian polar station where they find nothing but devastation, dead men, a flying monstrous object of unknown origin, an ice block something had escaped from etc. The 2011 Thing describes what happened at the Norwegian Antarctic station before Russell and the others came.

The Fog is a great movie. Speaking of John Carpenter, he is my favourite director; I really enjoyed In the Mouth of Madness, Prince of Darkness and They Live. What a shame he has not been active too much lately.

There actually is some overlap in the two groups. Henry Kuttner, C. L. Moore and Fritz Leiber were members of both camps (admittedly, Leiber is more of a "second-generation" Weird Tales writer. But he did actually corresponded with HPL, as did other SF writers like James Blish and P. Schuyler Miller).

Who Goes There? may well have been influenced by At The Mountains of Madness. And Campbell's story in turn influenced Van Vogt's The Vault of The Beast, which bears some uncanny similarities to The Call of Cthulhu. The Circle of Influence rotates eternally...

It's a shame that Lovecraft died before getting the chance to correspond with John W. Campbell. Both were great letterhacks who liked nothing better than to debate a topic through the medium of the USPS!

Ken K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> as did
> other SF writers like James Blish and P. Schuyler
> Miller).

I don't think HPL and Miller corresponded. He describes himself as a fan in "Let's All Jump on H.P.L.", but doesn't mention any correspondence.

Ken K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a shame that Lovecraft died before getting
> the chance to correspond with John W. Campbell.
> Both were great letterhacks who liked nothing
> better than to debate a topic through the medium
> of the USPS!


That is how it is, there must finally be a break, a stop for each individual, when the soul's operation through the given body is done. It is all set, and destined. However, through the intellectual tensions and points of mutual enrichment in their separate writings, there is still a "dislocated" dialog, potentially continued, that will either lie dormant for an indefinite period, or can be picked up, developed, and come to fruit, through the minds of others.

My mistake--Miller corresponded with Robert E. Howard, not HPL. Thanks for catching my error!

Some of the greatest and most genuine weird, supernatural moments I have ever experienced in literature, is the way van Vogt, Campbell, and also Clarke, describe future machines, self-repairing, self-reproducing machines. It truly is haunting, and gives a sense of awe and wonder of actually looking into the future. Seemingly a spiritual experience. Quite unique.

Well, I'll go on with my small monologues here on the dark eldritch site. It's rather enjoyable. Like drifting alone in the abyss of space, with a quiet, loyal audience of some hundred or so ever present spirits, who rarely utter a word.

Anyway, the foremost stories I know of, telling of those haunting future machines, would be The Voyage of the Space Beagle, The City and the Stars, "Twilight", and "Night". ("Night" I finished half an hour ago. I don't think it was quite up to the same high quality as the small masterpiece "Twilight", but even so, very interesting.)

What the hell is this?! "Bismuth". It was mentioned in Campbell's story "Night".
[www.bismuthcrystal.com]

Good night, and good luck to you with the USA elections.

I find the novels by Van Vogt that I have read lately, to be badly written. Painfully so. I had to force my way through the last one. These books are:

The Weapon Shops of Isher
The Weapon Makers
The World of Null-A
The Pawns of Null-A

There are stimulating ideas in the books, but these are not presented in well described or colorful ways. And the books are inflated with social and political intrigue, which I find deadly boring; events are just stacked onto each other, without any seeming planned structure, and there is much repetitive back and forth going between locations. Uugh! Sometimes he sparkles with some inspired idea or exciting weird situation, but then just cuts it off in the next chapter and continues the boring intrigue instead, without form, color, or detailed locations (I am used to the fine painterly writing of CAS and Jack Vance!), leaving the visuals quite flat and empty. Vogt has said that the reader should fill it in himself, but I can hardly accept that as an excuse. It is frustrating, because he is able to make detailed description on some occasions, when in the mood for it. The Pawns ... was probably the most boring and badly written book I have ever read.

His short stories have been much more essential and enjoyable.

I am still on a quest to find the Van Vogt novels that are pure concentrated weirdness and loony joy, that he is so famous for. Without dull ambitions for excess drama filler.

The Voyage of the Space Beagle is the best book I have read so far. It was concentrated with interesting things. Slan was alright too, albeit with some filler.

However, I must give some important credit to the Null-A books, which seem very ambitious in their intention. They focus their interest on psychology and the future development of the human mind. I have actually been much helped by this non-Aristotelian way of thinking, that gives importance to intuitive subconscious thinking, evaluating reality with all senses, and NOT acting in a situation just on rushed emotions or from rational clumsy deduction. Thanks to these books I have developed and widened my perspective, and have managed to avoid some bad decisions, and made better ones, by tuning in more sensitively before acting.

I think Mission to the Stars is, so far, my favorite Vogt novel next after ...Space Beagle. It has some mind-boggling giant machines of future mankind.
I think Lovecraft was very right in saying, that the only thing that makes life worth living, is the ability to escape from it, into imagination and artificially constructed harmonies of color, form, and philosophical thought.

I have just read the first chapter of Vogt's The War Against the Rull, and, in a dialogue between alien and human, an intelligent and devastating argument is presented against the pathetic posturing of humanity. If it is not counter-balanced in the following chapters, I may as well kill myself.
I believe Lovecraft would have found the ideas very interesting (But not the prose itself, which is mediocre at best.).

Link: GOLDEN AGE SCI-FI: 1934–1963
This page has a long list of novels from the period. It says, " ... Science fiction’s “Golden Age” dates to John W. Campbell’s 1937 assumption of the editorship of the pulp magazine Astounding. By my reckoning, however, Campbell and his cohort first began to develop their literate, analytical, socially conscious science fiction in reaction against the 1934 advent of the campy Flash Gordon comic strip, not to mention Hollywood’s innumerable mid-1930s Bug-Eyed Monster-heavy “sci-fi” blockbusters that sought to ape the success of 1933’s King Kong."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26 Feb 21 | 12:45AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin, what further stories by van Vogt would you recommend beyond the contents of Science Fiction Monsters (Paperback Library 1965; I have a 1970 printing):

6 • The Monster Man, Sire of Slan • (1965) • essay by Forrest J. Ackerman
11 • Not Only Dead Men • (1942) • short story by A. E. van Vogt
29 • Final Command • (1949) • short story by A. E. van Vogt
48 • War of Nerves • [Space Beagle] • (1950) • novelette by A. E. van Vogt
67 • Enchanted Village • (1950) • short story by A. E. van Vogt
80 • Concealment • [Mixed Men] • (1943) • short story by A. E. van Vogt
93 • The Sea Thing • (1940) • novelette by A. E. van Vogt
119 • Resurrection • (1949) • short story by A. E. van Vogt (variant of The Monster 1948)
134 • Vault of the Beast • (1940) • novelette by A. E. van Vogt

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, what further stories by van Vogt would
> you recommend beyond the contents of Science
> Fiction Monsters (Paperback Library 1965; I have a
> 1970 printing):
>

I have not read a whole lot really. I mentioned some good books earlier in this thread. Foremost I would recommend The Voyage of the Space Beagle. It contains the greats "Discord in Scarlet" and "M33 in Andromeda"! The Silkie is another very interesting book. Next I plan to read The Battle of Forever, which is supposedly very bizarre. (Many of his novels are otherwise assembled and adapted from original short stories.) Destination: Universe! is a fine collection, with stories like "Far Centaurus", "Dormant", and of course "The Monster"!

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, what further stories by van Vogt would
> you recommend beyond the contents of Science
> Fiction Monsters (Paperback Library 1965; I have a
> 1970 printing):
>
> 6 • The Monster Man, Sire of Slan • (1965) •
> essay by Forrest J. Ackerman
> 11 • Not Only Dead Men • (1942) • short
> story by A. E. van Vogt
> 29 • Final Command • (1949) • short story by
> A. E. van Vogt
> 48 • War of Nerves • • (1950) • novelette
> by A. E. van Vogt
> 67 • Enchanted Village • (1950) • short
> story by A. E. van Vogt
> 80 • Concealment • • (1943) • short story
> by A. E. van Vogt
> 93 • The Sea Thing • (1940) • novelette by
> A. E. van Vogt
> 119 • Resurrection • (1949) • short story by
> A. E. van Vogt (variant of The Monster 1948)
> 134 • Vault of the Beast • (1940) •
> novelette by A. E. van Vogt

A funny thing...

I was more impressed with van Vogt's writing ability after reading The Monster, and less impressed with Asimov's after reading (trying to read) Belief.

Yet Nightfall blew me away, and maybe it still does--I'll have to find it and re-read.

This is (to me) an interesting divergence. I find that some SF stories are horribly written--truly awful, impressively so, as Vonnegut frequently tells us in his early writings--while others are really quite good. But often, even for the bad one, the speculative premise--the ideas, as Knygatin mentioned before--carry the story.

E.g., Christopher Anvil has really great command of comic expression--handles this really well in "Pandora's Planet" (just finished it last night, the short story).

Bradbury's Martian Chronicles had a certain feel to them--scope of time, place--that worked very well for me. Often in other stuff I find him a bit too sentimental (if this is the right word), or maybe he tends to raise a representative character to too great a height--makes them too important.

The POV meets a man with a load of bizarre tattoos; this maladjusted transient tells him oddball stories. So, who cares?

Then there is J. G. Ballard's Vermillion Sands. This is loaded with a sense of decadent ennui--characters are doing unimportant, narcissistic things with great earnestness. They are being observed by a cynical POV character who tends to feed--parasite-like--off of them, much akin to the way the merchants along Rodeo Dr exist.

So for both the Bradbury and Ballard stuff I like, it's all about mood established, as it often is for CAS' stuff, for me.

The other Ballard stuff, The Wind From Nowhere, The Drowned World--these are not all that great.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks, Knygatin. I have The Voyage of the Space Beagle in an old Science Fiction Book Club omnibus of van Vogt called Triad. I know I've read at least most of The Voyage, but that would've been years ago, so I'll likely pick it up again.

The first story in The Voyage of the Space Beagle, called "Black Destroyer", I think has the most magical and dreamy science fiction scene I have ever read. There is something just so very fundamental about that moment when space men leave their ship and step out onto a new planet. And here, further augmented, they are clad in translucent metal suits (their vulnerable bodies visible underneath), that sparkle and glitter iridescent in the sunlight. I don't know how to intellectually argue for it, but it is a scene so rich and delicious, it went straight to my tummy and then bumped right up against my heart.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The first story in The Voyage of the Space Beagle,
> called "Black Destroyer", I think has the most
> magical and dreamy science fiction scene I have
> ever read. There is something just so very
> fundamental about that moment when space men leave
> their ship and step out onto a new planet. And
> here, further augmented, they are clad in
> translucent metal suits (their vulnerable bodies
> visible underneath), that sparkle and glitter
> iridescent in the sunlight. I don't know how to
> intellectually argue for it, but it is a scene so
> rich and delicious, it went straight to my tummy
> and then bumped right up against my heart.

I don't know about this one, Knygatin. We agree in a lot of aesthetic areas, for sure, but the practicality of having a transparent (or translucent) is a bridge too far, for me.

I get hung up on the idea that they'd have to dress decently before stepping out of the spacecraft. I had kinda cherished the notion that future space explorers could be wearing any old thing under their suits--perhaps even wearing only week-old boxers and a t-shirt.

But this wrecks everything...

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe the idea was that they would land on a planet, & the inhabitants would take one look and run in terror for the hills.

Either of you heard of, or read, "Tales from the White Hart"?

It's a kind of stylish bar-room fantasy sub-genre where the "usual patrons" tell bizarre experiences, and every now and then a newcomer comes in and adds to the fun.

Arthur C. Clark

[en.wikipedia.org]

As a kid, I thought that this was the very pinnacle of sophistication.

How sad... :^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was given a vintage paperback of the White Hart stories not too long ago, but haven't read it.

I didn't mean that they were all naked underneath, they of course wear some kind of dress for comfort against the metal suit. But there is a dynamic sensate contrast here, between the impression of vulnerability being exposed to cold empty space and alien elements, and yet the relief of being snuggly protected after all. And further, the beauty of the suits glittering in iridescent colors as the low sun hits them. I am sorry I was unable to pass on to you this, for me, overwhelming aesthetic sensation. ... Perhaps if you reread the beginning of the tale, you will appreciate it, ... who knows.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Either of you heard of, or read, "Tales from the
> White Hart"?
>
>

It was developed in inspiration from Dunsany's Jorkens tales. They knew each other (only through correspondence?). I have not read either of these series, and don't intend to. I have too much else to read.

How could metal be translucent? Someone once explained that to me, but I still don't get it. It is magic.

The Jorkens stories are great, great entertainment!

Read them all, twice. Try finding them for sale, however. Wow!

I found my old copy: a Ballentine Books 75 cent edition touting Clarke as "the creator of 2001: A Space Odyssey".

It's disappointingly tough going. Thinking about this collection, by Clarke, in close proximity with the Jorkens stories, by Dunsany, underlines the gulf in narrative talent between them.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm, over 150 Jorkens stories collected in 6 volumes. Sounds like quite an undertaking. ... "Our Distant Cousins" and "The Slugly Beast" perhaps? I have access to those two.

I have enjoyed and cherished Dunsany's earlier collections.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmm, over 150 Jorkens stories collected in 6
> volumes. Sounds like quite an undertaking. ...
> "Our Distant Cousins" and "The Slugly Beast"
> perhaps? I have access to those two.
>
> I have enjoyed and cherished Dunsany's earlier
> collections.


They are currently available in 3 volumes.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Here's how I did it:

[multcolib.bibliocommons.com]

Then just checked them out, one after another. There's seldom a waiting list.

Later, after I retired, I did it again. They read very quickly.

It's a pleasant way to spend a week or so.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It was developed in inspiration from Dunsany's
> Jorkens tales. They knew each other (only through
> correspondence?).

They met once, at Dunsany's Kent residence Dunstall Priory. Clarke has described how Dunsany hand-corrected his copy of The Charwoman's Shadow in his presence.

I'm working thru the White Hart stories. They are oddly distasteful without much in the way of aesthetic or humorous compensation when compared to the Jorkens stories.

Jorkens belongs to a private club in the UK. He is somewhat disreputable--a sort of a better educated, more sophisticate, less shopworn W. C. Fields. He is always trying to cadge drinks, and he tells a story when he gets one.

He has one other member who wants to trip him up, and there's a kind of constant push-pull competition, with Jorkens--because he plays dirty, essentially--coming out on top mostly.

The club itself seems almost laughable, with privileged but essentially undistinguished, but harmless, members relying mainly on ideas of class and status for any sense of worth. Dunsany is inviting us to laugh at them in the same way the Marx Bros invite their audience to laugh at the wealthy in their films.

However, with White hart, these are academics in a chosen bar. They are mean-spirited and supercilious and petty, and are looking for ways to prey on new visitors to the bar by simply making them look like fools. There's no real invitation to laugh at the "regulars", so the general feeling I get is "What a sorry bunch of jerks!".

Interestingly, one of the stories, "Silence, Please", seems to me to anticipate the conceptual design of the Bose noise cancelling earphones.

[www.bose.com]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Like I have asked before, about A. Merritt being the greatest fantasist ever, I must now also ask if John W. Campbell was the greatest science fictionist ever. Even greater than Arthur C. Clarke and A. E. van Vogt?! (Oops, sitting here relaxed on this pleasant Sunday afternoon, enjoying a glass of Madeira, I first wrote Vincent van Gogh! Well, no harm done. By the way, he was perhaps the greatest of all colorists?) I have been looking again at "Twilight" and "Night", and they raise such ecstatic passion inside me, that I am unable to harbor it rationally; and so I had no choice, but to write down this post, to save my sanity.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vincent van Gogh! ... By the way, he was
> perhaps the greatest of all colorists?)
>

No, he certainly wasn't. For instance, he couldn't hold a light to Richard Corben.
But greatest impressionist?! Yes, possibly, ... very likely. (Far superior to Gauguin.) And he was damned fine at drawing, too!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like I have asked before, about A. Merritt being
> the greatest fantasist ever, I must now also ask
> if John W. Campbell was the greatest science
> fictionist ever. Even greater than Arthur C.
> Clarke and A. E. van Vogt?!

H. G. Wells would get my vote, apologist for the Commies though he was.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Like I have asked before, about A. Merritt
> being
> > the greatest fantasist ever, I must now also
> ask
> > if John W. Campbell was the greatest science
> > fictionist ever. Even greater than Arthur C.
> > Clarke and A. E. van Vogt?!
>
> H. G. Wells would get my vote, apologist for the
> Commies though he was.

I thoroughly enjoyed The First Men in the Moon.

As a kid I read War of the Worlds in the Classics Illustrated, and have not felt motivated to pick up the original book after that. The story is so well known that it is almost integrated within the collective consciousness. I have a pdf Amazing Stories pulp with The Island of Dr. Moreau waiting in my reading pile. I read "The Flowering of the Strange Orchid", but found it rather bland, not as rich as C. A. Smith's tree and flower stories.

The Time Machine is available in George Pal's excellent movie, so why should I also read the book?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Time Machine is available in George Pal's
> excellent movie, so why should I also read the
> book?


You [i]are[i] kidding -- right? : )

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Time Machine is available in George Pal's
> > excellent movie, so why should I also read the
> > book?
>
>
> You are kidding -- right? : )


When I saw that cannabis was being widely legalized, this was the very outcome that I feared.

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Time Machine is available in George Pal's
> > excellent movie, so why should I also read the
> > book?
>
>
> You are kidding -- right? : )

Half and half. I'm a bit tired, that's all. There are so many books to choose from, ... and I really only have time to read a select few. I want those ones to be the very most worthwhile for me personally. I realize, of course, that only a small part of a well written book can go into a film, so my comment above was half-hearted.

But yeah, I do like George Pal. My favorite of his is The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

I mean, Knygatin, what would you think of HPL if all you know of his work was what you'd seen in a movie? Gahhh!

Wells's main sf books* are all pretty short, too.

Time Machine
Moreau
First Men in the Moon
War of the Worlds

maybe Invisible Man -- but I see that more as an ironic and clever fantasy; tho' with a nominal sf explanation for the invisibility factor.

Of the stories, well, quite a few, I'm sure, but without looking I'd say at least

The Crystal Egg
The Sea-Raiders
The Star -- I think that's title
The Country of the Blind

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I mean, Knygatin, what would you think of HPL if
> all you know of his work was what you'd seen in a
> movie? Gahhh!
>

Gahhh!!! I cringe and fold myself double!

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wells's
>
> Of the stories, well, quite a few, I'm sure, but
> without looking I'd say at least
>
> The Crystal Egg
> The Sea-Raiders
> The Star -- I think that's title
> The Country of the Blind

I have now assembled those four. Thank you, Dale. "The Country of the Blind", is that a genuine SF tale, or an instructive morality lesson?

Knygatin Wrote:

> > "The Country of the Blind", is that a genuine SF
> tale, or an instructive morality lesson?


I'd say it was a genuine "lost race" type of story. Wells's "Empire of the Ants" is another short one to read. As I recall "The Plattner Story" is a good story with a dull title.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
>
> > > "The Country of the Blind", is that a genuine
> SF
> > tale, or an instructive morality lesson?
>
>
> I'd say it was a genuine "lost race" type of
> story. Wells's "Empire of the Ants" is another
> short one to read. As I recall "The Plattner
> Story" is a good story with a dull title.

I'd bet Wells still has a lesson for us, something along the lines of "They may be blind, but they still can see better than us, because they are clever and not wasteful, using what they got, their fingers's touch and so forth."

Thanks, I will check on "Ants" and "Plattner" too.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The Time Machine is available in George Pal's
> > > excellent movie, so why should I also read
> the
> > > book?
> >
> >
> > You are kidding -- right? : )
>
> Half and half. I'm a bit tired, that's all. There
> are so many books to choose from, ... and I really
> only have time to read a select few. I want those
> ones to be the very most worthwhile for me
> personally. I realize, of course, that only a
> small part of a well written book can go into a
> film, so my comment above was half-hearted.
>

Another reason for my restraint toward Wells, is that I have always felt a dislike for sharing the same emotional impressions and ideas as the masses. I don't like to follow and be part of the herd (and the political correctness that comes with it). I am also suspicious of popular mass appeal, because the masses are generally simple minded and easily gullible. I prefer to seek out more obscure items, that I find intellectually superior, both in literature and film. There are exceptions, like Tolkien, E. R. Burroughs, some of Stephen King.

And no, Sawfish, I don't use that stuff.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dale Nelson Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Knygatin Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The Time Machine is available in George
> Pal's
> > > > excellent movie, so why should I also read
> > the
> > > > book?
> > >
> > >
> > > You are kidding -- right? : )
> >
> > Half and half. I'm a bit tired, that's all.
> There
> > are so many books to choose from, ... and I
> really
> > only have time to read a select few. I want
> those
> > ones to be the very most worthwhile for me
> > personally. I realize, of course, that only a
> > small part of a well written book can go into a
> > film, so my comment above was half-hearted.
> >
>
> Another reason for my restraint toward Wells, is
> that I have always felt a dislike for sharing the
> same emotional impressions and ideas as the
> masses. I don't like to follow and be part of the
> herd (and the political correctness that comes
> with it). I am also suspicious of popular mass
> appeal, because the masses are generally simple
> minded and easily gullible. I prefer to seek out
> more obscure items, that I find intellectually
> superior, both in literature and film. There are
> exceptions, like Tolkien, E. R. Burroughs, some of
> Stephen King.
>
> And no, Sawfish, I don't use that stuff.

You know, what you just wrote could have been me, writing a self-description.

Here are a couple of nuances...

Rationally, I've come to realize that any of the various flavors of "crowd phenomena" tend to amplify the most emotional and visceral of human responses. Such response are often blindingly immediate and dizzyingly gratifying in the moment.

And I find that all people I know of are susceptible, myself, as well. This means that I, too, under the "right" conditions, could be a rabid supporter of any of a number of emotionally appealing ideas, as relayed by emotionally appealing, charismatic leaders.

So what I've developed to "save myself", I suppose, is that very rejection of herd sensibilities that you describe. By reflexively doing this I buy an interval of time, and in that interval, my rational self can usually unwind the reflexive appeal, if any, to distance myself from the subjectively extreme moment.

Me, I think that this is a *good* thing. It's probably the primary difference be tween myself and my brother, who simply takes emotional satisfaction wherever he can find it, and the hell with the predictable consequences.

Now I hasten to add that it could be easy to think that perhaps I am by nature attracted to social groups, crowds, large-scale social interactions, but the contrary seems to be true: I grew up 'way the hell in the country--rural California in the 50s--and without either playmates or a sibling until I was 6. By then, books (or firearms--talk about irony!!!) were my regular companions, which explains why I still consistently walk around with a book (or now an e-reader) at all times.

It explains why I post here, and not on Facebook, Twitter, etc.

Now this leads me to the uncomfortable possibility that if I ran out of books, maybe I'd start walking around with a holstered 1911...

Hmmmm... ;^)

So I mention this in support of my strong belief that all (virtually) fairly normally adjusted and functional adults are indeed moved by crowd phenomena and other widely recognized social phenomena like charisma, human beauty, etc.--and I've developed a mechanism for that, too. The individual differences in response are simply whether the individual simply goes with the immediate flow, or resists it--and to what degree they resist it.

To my mind, those who fail to resist such social phenomena at least a little are, well, déclassé.

In fact, at this stage of my life, so certain of how this works that I'd by default think that anyone quick to deny this is basically lying, either to him/herself, or simply to me.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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That was an interesting post, Sawfish. Thank you for sharing. You seem to me a person of contradictions, and I find that a good thing. I appreciate a person who struggles to expand beyond his boundaries. You do surprise me sometimes; one moment you come across as politically correct (ultra-) liberal, and then suddenly astonish me with very conservative values rebellious against present society decadence. But when it comes to literature, you clearly have a sophisticated, refined taste, and intellectual understanding in your perspective; you obviously don't waste time consuming mass appeal garbage.

Sawfish, your comment reminded me of this old ditty:

CHAIN LIGHTNING by Steely Dan

Some turnout, a hundred grand
Get with it we'll shake his hand
Don't bother to understand
Don't question the little man
Be part of the brotherhood
Yes it's chain lightning
It feels so good

Hush brother, we cross the square
Act nat'ral like you don't care
Turn slowly and comb your hair
Don't trouble the midnight air
We're standing just where he stood
It was chain lightning
It feels so good

[www.bing.com]

Good one, Dale!

I liked a lot of Steely Dan stuff--it was often witty and sardonic. Having lived in LA for a while when I was in my 30s, I think they are the closest to capturing the Lotus Land effect that living at the beach or in areas around the Santa Monica mountains engenders. It's damned near intoxicating, or was for me, at least.

I mean, if you're making reasonably good money and you get off work on Friday, you can drive home and actually think that anything might be possible that evening. Any positive thing you can think of. Me, I'm kinda conventional, but it was very easy to convince myself, yep. And often you'd get reasonably close, with like-minded people with the same things on their mind.

Not the ideal place to raise kids, in my judgement. Tough on marriages, too... ;^)

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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