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Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 9 August, 2017 05:11PM
Knygatin's remarks about the Golden Age of Science Fiction inspire me to start a new discussion thread.

I'm going to contend that the Golden Age of (Modern) Fantasy was the 25-year period 1887-1912. "Fantasy" here is used broadly to include what we now call science fiction, as well as fantasy and what's often called "dark fantasy." "Fantasy" has come to suggest the kind of thing Ballantine emphasized in its Adult Fantasy Series (1969-1974), while "dark fantasy" seems to me more descriptive than "horror," since when people write about liking "horror" they generally seem to mean fantasy with pronounced horror elements. (If it were just "horror" that one wanted, I, at least, would think that plausible, realistic fiction or indeed nonfiction would be more likely to be truly horrifying. But I don't think many people read about the Armenian genocide, for example, for entertainment.)

The 1887-1912 period is bounded by Haggard's SHE at the beginning and Doyle's LOST WORLD at the end.

In between, you have outstanding work in fantasy of such as William Morris (The Well at the World's End, etc.), George MacDonald (Lilith), Dunsany (short fiction -- the Pegana-type stories), etc. You have the fantastic art of the late Pre-Raphaelites such as Edward Burne-Jones and J. W. Waterhouse, which remain influential today on how people imagine fantasy scenes, and Arthur Rackham. In music you have much of Sibelius's work with fantastic associations.

In the 1887-1912 period, science fiction is represented by the masterpieces of H. G. Wells (War of the Worlds, Time Machine, etc.) and W. H. Hodgson (House on the Borderland), etc. There's Stevenson's endlessly-recycled (by other auithors) Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. One can squeak in Edgar Rice Burroughs's Under the Moons of Mars, as I recall -- the magazine version of A Princess of Mars.

And in this period you've got, for dark fantasy, the first volumes of M. R. James's ghost stories, Blackwood masterpieces like "The Wendigo," Stoker's Dracula, Arthur Machen's "White People" and other famous stories, etc. Henry James's superlative novella The Turn of the Screw belongs to this period.

It might be argued that quite a lot of what later authors in these genres did was mostly a matter of combining elements already deployed during the Golden Age. Lovecraft saw himself as working in a James-Machen-Blackwood vein: add some Wells and, especially, Hodgson, and you've got almost everything HPL worked with, not to say he's nothing but a pasticheur or something. But weird tales of cosmic horror are not his unique invention.

This is also the period in which Rudyard Kipling, who is, I think, often overlooked by genre fans, wrote outstanding stories of the uncanny and even, I believe, of science fiction -- I would have to look up his futuristic tales. Walter de la Mare wrote eerie verse in the period.

One could create quite a list of stories from this period that can be and are read for enjoyment still, not just by historians and obsessives of the genres.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 04:37AM
That era of writing followed after the Transcendentalism movement, and had an honest and serious (perhaps naive?) spiritual quality to it. It was like a cosmic window stood wide open during those years. Algernon Blackwood, for example, believed in what he wrote. No one today writes supernatural fiction like that; today the approach is more self-conscious, tongue-in-cheek, and shallow, written merely for artificial shocking effect, or deliberately constructed as psychological symbolism. We are now all slaves under a materialistic age.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 09:49AM
Your comment, Knygatin, will receive, I hope, patient and reflective responses. I'll try to advance the discussion a little. Here are some thoughts.

1.The idea you imply, that a writer will write better supernatural stories if he (=the male or female author) believes in the supernatural, seems, at first sight at least, likely to be true. I don't know if it could really be proven. First, we would need to establish what are the (qualitatively) best stories in the genre. There'd probably be agreement about some favorites -- I suppose almost everybody who reads a lot of supernatural horror and has read, say, "The White People," likes it (but some might find it lacking in the graphic visceral quality they like...) -- BUT there might be a lot of disagreement about which stories are good apart from a small canon of classics. Then we would have to try to find out what the authors of those stories believed. But a second problem is that we don't know what the authors really believed, at least in some cases. What I mean is that there are probably a few authors who are on record about what they believed -and- are writing accurately, with sufficient self-knowledge, about the matter. I expect that when Blackwood went on record as saying he believed in, and practiced, certain disciplines that (he believed) enabled him to achieve a greater state of awareness, which revealed the "supernatural," he was sincere. But I don't -really- know that, and perhaps Blackwood himself, "deep down," believed something different. I know no reason to doubt that he did know what he really believed and that he was telling the truth about the matter, but I don't know. But to hold that the writer of the best supernatural stories must believe in the supernatural would require me to know that sort of thing, wouldn't it? Perhaps I'm making too much of these things, but I do feel like there are a couple of ambiguous matters here.

2.Nevertheless, I think you have a good point -- up to a point. Machen seems to have grown up as an orthodox Christian who soon rebelled against "puritanism" (to use the term loosely). He became convinced of the reality of the paranormal at least. He was some kind of Christian most of his life. (See the discussion of the academic paper "Man Is Made a Mystery" on machen's thought: [www.sffchronicles.com]) Haggard seems to have believed in an eclectic set of beliefs including elements of Christianity and also reincarnation, etc. Blackwood did believe in the supernatural or the preternatural. M. R. James was, so far as I know, an orthodox Christian, and he also believed (which not all orthodox Christians do) in the possibility of "ghosts." I don't know a lot about de la Mare, but I think he did regard reality as something elusive, not just material, and not susceptible of being pinned down by empiricism. Hodgson (if my impression is correct) held to some kind of non-Christian spirituality. Wells may have believed in some kind of godlike potential for mankind if evolution wasn't defeated by us destroying ourselves, but I don't think he believed in the supernatural. Doyle, as everyone knows, became a public defender of occultism, the reality of fairies, etc. I don't know what Morris's beliefs were. As a socialist, he presumably thought largely in terms of the material conditions of life affecting or even determining society and the beliefs of individuals. George MacDonald was an ardent, but unorthodox, Christian. I have the impression that Dunsany didn't believe in the supernatural. So I think, Knygatin, that you could support your point about the Golden Age authors with quite a bit of biographical information.

3.It seems to me that the contemporary authors, whom I mostly don't read, don't have the sense of a transcendent or spiritual dimension. This helps to propel them towards more physical horror. Back in the 1980s I read several of Stephen King's novels, and was struck by how often the horror involved severe injury, gruesome death, etc. I suppose that this is what we find in the books of many other authors and in movies. The question may then be asked, as to whether being mutilated and bleeding out thanks to a bomb planted by a Mohammedan terrorist on a subway platform or being clawed to death by a zombie are all that different.

4.This brings me to Clark Ashton Smith. I'm curious about his beliefs, if it is possible to say much about them, but don't know a lot about his life. My sense is that he was probably close to the materialist Lovecraft, though more attracted to "decadence" than HPL. But I would guess that CAS didn't believe in the supernatural. His stories are replete with gruesome physical outrages, and very unlike the stories of Blackwood or Machen, say.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Martinus (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 10:37AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It might be argued that quite a lot of what later
> authors in these genres did was mostly a matter of
> combining elements already deployed during the
> Golden Age. Lovecraft saw himself as working in a
> James-Machen-Blackwood vein: add some Wells and,
> especially, Hodgson, and you've got almost
> everything HPL worked with, not to say he's
> nothing but a pasticheur or something.

Are you implying a Hodgson influence on Lovecraft?

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 11:19AM
Yes, I believe that Lovecraft was influenced by Hodgson. Certainly Lovecraft had read Hodgson (vide "Supernatural Horror in Literature"). Lovecraft is quoted on the Ace paperback reprint of The House on the Borderland and the Ballantine Adult Fantasy reprints of The Boats of the "Glen Carrig' and The Night Land. For details of HPL's interest in WHH I'd want to consult some biography of Lovecraft. But offhand I think there's every reason to believe that Lovecraft read Hodgson in plenty of time for the earlier writer's "cosmic" horror to influence Lovecraft. Whether Lovecraft ever -said- that he was influenced by Hodgson, I don't know.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 03:10PM
As I see it, the golden age of traditional fantasy (swords & sorcery, dragons, etc.) came later, with R. E. Howard, (Lovecraft and especially C. A. Smith touching upon it), Fritz Leiber, J. R. R. Tolkien, Jack Vance. That's when this kind of imagination really flowered. I have read a few of the precursors: Dunsany, MacDonald, Morris, but don't consider them golden age of fantasy. MacDonald I found too "Christian", and Morris I couldn't get into at all.

The golden age of science fiction, I think would be from the 1940s to the 1970s.

Anyway, those are my personal opinions. There are a lot of early authors I have not read, so I am open to altering my view.

The "1887-1912" period I consider mainly to be the golden age of supernatural fiction (Blackwood, Machen) and of fantastic visionary fiction (Hodgson's The Night Land, E. R. Burroughs's Mars and his iconic Tarzan). There was a spiritual, or mentally hightened quality, during these years, that exalted the fiction, and lifted it into other levels of reality.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 03:37PM
And of course, the golden age of weird fantasy, were the years with A. Merritt, H. P. Lovecraft, and C. A. Smith. Golden years, indeed!

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Martinus (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 04:27PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I believe that Lovecraft was influenced by
> Hodgson. Certainly Lovecraft had read Hodgson
> (vide "Supernatural Horror in Literature").
> Lovecraft is quoted on the Ace paperback reprint
> of The House on the Borderland and the Ballantine
> Adult Fantasy reprints of The Boats of the "Glen
> Carrig' and The Night Land. For details of HPL's
> interest in WHH I'd want to consult some biography
> of Lovecraft. But offhand I think there's every
> reason to believe that Lovecraft read Hodgson in
> plenty of time for the earlier writer's "cosmic"
> horror to influence Lovecraft. Whether Lovecraft
> ever -said- that he was influenced by Hodgson, I
> don't know.

Lovecraft read Hodgson for the first time in 1934 -- the Hodgson passage in "Supernatural Horror in Literature" was inserted after the article appeared in The Recluse. Hence, only "The Shadow out of Time" and "The Haunter of the Dark" could show any Hodgson influence. So no, Hodgson's influence on Lovecraft was minimal.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 10 August, 2017 05:18PM
Very interesting, Martinus -- thank you. It's remarkable, since Hodgson's House on the Borderland anticipates so much that stands as characteristic of Lovecraft: the remote real-world setting (west of Ireland rather than backwoods New England), manuscript in old house, manuscript that terminates with something ghastly about to -get- the narrator, strange house, supernatural-scientific phenomena, prowling creatures, cosmic vistas, "littleness of humanity," and so on. But if he wasn't influenced, he wasn't influenced.

DN

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 11 August, 2017 04:11AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And of course, the golden age of weird fantasy,
> were the years with A. Merritt, H. P. Lovecraft,
> and C. A. Smith. Golden years, indeed!


A. Merritt was a romantic and represented the essence of fantasy, but composed fiction only as a sideline from his regular work. The Metal Monster, The Moon Pool, The Conquest of the Moon Pool, original magazine versions of The Face in the Abyss and The Snake Mother. The pink spider-men in a hidden valley of South America, ... MY GOD!!! What a tremendous IMAGINATION!!!

Lovecraft and Smith came along, and did it better from a literary standpoint. Lovecraft's nephew Edward told him that The Metal Monster was dull (the damn'd fool!, to cite Lovecraft), so Lovecraft only read this novel very late finally. Otherwise it might have influenced his work.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Martinus (IP Logged)
Date: 11 August, 2017 06:51AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very interesting, Martinus -- thank you. It's
> remarkable, since Hodgson's House on the
> Borderland anticipates so much that stands as
> characteristic of Lovecraft: the remote real-world
> setting (west of Ireland rather than backwoods New
> England), manuscript in old house, manuscript that
> terminates with something ghastly about to -get-
> the narrator, strange house,
> supernatural-scientific phenomena, prowling
> creatures, cosmic vistas, "littleness of
> humanity," and so on. But if he wasn't
> influenced, he wasn't influenced.

The similarity could also explain why Lovecraft was so enthusiastic when he did discover Hodgson -- there were other writers that he mentioned (at one time or another) that he wanted to include in an update of SHiL (such as A. Merritt), but in the case of Hodgson he actually did it.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 12 August, 2017 01:52AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin,
>
> 1.The idea you imply, that a writer will write
> better supernatural stories if he (=the male or
> female author) believes in the supernatural,

There was a force behind that belief, and with the best authors's talent and intelligence of that era, the stories became very convincing. But it wasn't necessarily better fiction on the whole, aside from that specific point. Later writers became better at fleshing out stories with imaginitive details, color, form, and sophisticated idea structures.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 February, 2021 01:34AM
I was a bit disappointed with Fritz Leiber's "Stardock" in the collection Swords Against Wizardry. A synopsis had told it would contain a white furry dragon worm, but I thought it was much too small and passed too quickly from the narrative. I had expected a sort of Corbenesque monster, big and fleshy, a cross between reptile and mammal, with lots of askew personality, in extended interaction with the adventurers. But it was not so, alas.

Fritz Leiber was, by the way, an admirer of Richard Corben's work.

Otherwise the tale was competently written. That's how I would describe Leiber, a vastly competent, skilled, imaginative writer of classic style fantasy. His parents were Shakespearian stage and film actors, and he got much from them. Visual and concrete in presentation, with excellent props within his reach. And with a great sense of magic. His Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser tales could have translated well to the screen.

But I don't think his imagination was quite as original as, say Clark Ashton Smith and Jack Vance, two "literary painters" I hold in higher aesthetic esteem.

But Fritz Leiber was still an amazing personality, and definitely belonged of the Golden Age of Modern Fantasy. It stuns me how a person could carve out a niche of an alternate reality like that, in a society that is completely different. Like he had stepped out of faery.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 8 February, 2021 05:16AM
I guess Leiber’s chief selling point as a fantasy author was a certain dry wit? Plus he’s very good on the whole psychology of Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, who emerge as more complex characters than one might initially think.* But I’d agree with you about the visual aspect, which certainly isn’t a defining feature of his work, and which is an important component in any fantasy.

That said, I remember a story about a magic shop that sets up business in Lankhmar. I think Grey Mouser goes in first and sees these gorgeous young woman hanging in cages from the ceiling, clacking their castanets and throwing him enticing looks. Fafhrd enters later (to rescue Gray Mouser) having acquired some sort of talisman which renders him immune to the shop’s blandishments, and sees something quite different - ie, not women but giant spiders. The sound is their mandibles.

Well that image has always stuck with me! Plus Leiber puts his own humorous spin on it. Fafhrd expects most of the shop’s contents to be valueless objects disguised by some sort of glamour, so he’s puzzled by the spiders - which he reckons must be worth a bob or two.

* this, in a genre not known for characterisation.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 February, 2021 06:06AM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... I remember a story about a magic shop
> that sets up business in Lankhmar. I think Grey
> Mouser goes in first and sees these gorgeous young
> woman hanging in cages from the ceiling, clacking
> their castanets and throwing him enticing looks.
> Fafhrd enters later (to rescue Gray Mouser) having
> acquired some sort of talisman which renders him
> immune to the shop’s blandishments, and sees
> something quite different - ie, not women but
> giant spiders. The sound is their mandibles.
>
> Well that image has always stuck with me! Plus
> Leiber puts his own humorous spin on it. Fafhrd
> expects most of the shop’s contents to be
> valueless objects disguised by some sort of
> glamour, so he’s puzzled by the spiders - which
> he reckons must be worth a bob or two.
>

"Bazaar of the Bizarre". Yes, he was certainly excellent. (Some visual moments in his tales are favorites of mine, and they could be quite poetic too.) And witty. A character in his science fiction story "The Enchanted Forest" strongly reminded me of Jack Vance. The psychological insight is very prominent in this work. A rational, organized writer. I think, perhaps, it is more of a mystically enshrouded, deeper, unresolved existential quality I somehow miss in his work.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 8 February, 2021 09:54AM
I'd have thought of Leiber as being a favorite author 40-odd years ago, but to tell the truth his work hasn't worn well with me and I believe I sold my Fafhrd and Mouser paperbacks many years ago. But I retain great esteem for his sf story "A Pail of Air."

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 February, 2021 10:52AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leiber ... I retain great esteem for his sf story "A Pail
> of Air."

It is a good one, but really stretches the plausible. He was inventive with the use of tools and props in his stories, in entertaining ways.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 9 February, 2021 05:36AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leiber was inventive with the use of tools
> and props in his stories, in entertaining ways.

There is a fascinating climbing staff in "Stardock". I have never seen a tool like that in real life, but I am sure it could be constructed. The staff contains a big screw inside, and by turning either end it will increase or decrease in length. It can be propped firmly between two spots, such as at a rock overhang, to aid in climbing past it.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 9 February, 2021 08:07AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Leiber was inventive with the use of tools
> > and props in his stories, in entertaining ways.
>
> There is a fascinating climbing staff in
> "Stardock". I have never seen a tool like that in
> real life, but I am sure it could be constructed.
> The staff contains a big screw inside, and by
> turning either end it will increase or decrease in
> length. It can be propped firmly between two
> spots, such as at a rock overhang, to aid in
> climbing past it.

Too late.

It was developed and marketed by shrewd speculators into a pull-up bar that fits into doorways.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 9 February, 2021 09:14AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Leiber was inventive with the use of tools
> > > and props in his stories, in entertaining
> ways.
> >
> > There is a fascinating climbing staff in
> > "Stardock". I have never seen a tool like that
> in
> > real life, but I am sure it could be
> constructed.
> > The staff contains a big screw inside, and by
> > turning either end it will increase or decrease
> in
> > length. It can be propped firmly between two
> > spots, such as at a rock overhang, to aid in
> > climbing past it.
>
> Too late.
>
> It was developed and marketed by shrewd
> speculators into a pull-up bar that fits into
> doorways.


I used to have one of those! The staff in the story is however slimmer and much longer, and at either end two wings can be folded out to help screw it tight in place, and then unscrew it when you have reached the other end.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 9 February, 2021 09:57AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Knygatin Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Leiber was inventive with the use of tools
> > > > and props in his stories, in entertaining
> > ways.
> > >
> > > There is a fascinating climbing staff in
> > > "Stardock". I have never seen a tool like
> that
> > in
> > > real life, but I am sure it could be
> > constructed.
> > > The staff contains a big screw inside, and by
> > > turning either end it will increase or
> decrease
> > in
> > > length. It can be propped firmly between two
> > > spots, such as at a rock overhang, to aid in
> > > climbing past it.
> >
> > Too late.
> >
> > It was developed and marketed by shrewd
> > speculators into a pull-up bar that fits into
> > doorways.
>
>
> I used to have one of those! The staff in the
> story is however slimmer and much longer, and at
> either end two wings can be folded out to help
> screw it tight in place, and then unscrew it when
> you have reached the other end.

Oh, no, mine was exactly like that.

I bought it from the Grey Mouser.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 9 February, 2021 10:10AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Oh, no, mine was exactly like that.
>
> I bought it from the Grey Mouser.


I see. Well, good luck with that.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 9 February, 2021 10:31AM
HAH! ;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 March, 2021 07:19AM
The other day I finished reading Swords Against Wizardry. Leiber is great on psychology, understands magic very well. And an expert with visuals ... his stories run like films ... excellent makeup, wardrobes, and settings. The last story, "The Lords of Quarmall", had some really bizarre deformed freaks in it, and shocking rot & disintegration of human bodies. (Not sure how much of this was Harry Otto Fischer's contribution, who cooperated with Leiber on this story. Lovecraft has mentioned in a letter that he thought Fischer probably had a greater imagination than Leiber.)

But, did I hear in it the tinkle of elfin bells? No.

I have begun reading Merritt's The Ship of Ishtar, and immediately hear the tinkle of invisible elfin bells. Therefore I think Merritt is ultimately a greater fantasist.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 March, 2021 07:27AM
Do I hear the elfin bells in the work of Smith? Not sure about that. Perhaps there is something else, even greater, that lifts its fantastic components above Leiber and others.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 7 March, 2021 10:18AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do I hear the elfin bells in the work of Smith?
> Not sure about that. Perhaps there is something
> else, even greater, that lifts its fantastic
> components above Leiber and others.


OK, this is a very nifty and interesting departure, K.

I *believe* I intuitively understood what you meant, and it was a very skillful metaphor, in my opinion.

I believe that I hear "elfin bells" in much (all that I've read, anyhow) of Dunsany, in the early Dunsany-esque HLP (Cats of Istar), in Eddison's Worm Ourborous, but not in CAS that I can recall, *at all*.

Am I on the right track here? If so, there is a lot of interesting stuff to explore.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 March, 2021 11:28AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I believe that I hear "elfin bells" in much (all
> that I've read, anyhow) of Dunsany, in the early
> Dunsany-esque HLP (Cats of Istar), in Eddison's
> Worm Ourborous, but not in CAS that I can recall,
> *at all*.
>
> Am I on the right track here? If so, there is a
> lot of interesting stuff to explore.


Yes, you definitely are (I have not read The Worm Ouroboros though). It is a quite evasive subject, I think. One can point toward it. But it is difficult to intellectually capture and cage in.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 7 March, 2021 12:38PM
It's really interesting.

So to expand the list, Tolkien has it, right?, and I've not read that much in this sub-genre (Hah! "elfin bells sub-genre"! You need to copyright this, Knygatin!), so I can't easily name any more. Maybe you can expand this list a bit?

But the Cthulu Mythos, or any such works that are derivative, or expand it, have pretty much zero elfin bells, I'd guess.

I think you might enjoy The Worm Ourboros. It is the only one of Eddison's works I like, and it is formulaic, in a sense, but has excellent sense of place and an arcane and archaic vocabulary that I really liked.

"Ensorcelled," indeed!

Just the names of the main characters are worth reading.

It also has a strong sense of underlying dynastic ambitions, as in Game of Thrones, or Dune--or even The Godfather.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 March, 2021 01:20PM
I'd like to read The Worm Ouroboros. We'll see when I find time for it.

The tinkle of elfin bells is not my invention, it is an old expression. I borrowed it.

Not sure if it can be attached onto a sub-genre. I think it is too subtle, and really an individual matter of very special ability and sensitivity.

Tolkien? He should have it. But does he? I hope so, ... at least in some of his work, that is not outright "meat and potatoes".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Mar 21 | 01:23PM by Knygatin.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 11:05AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's really interesting.
>
> So to expand the list, Tolkien has it, right?, and
> I've not read that much in this sub-genre (Hah!
> "elfin bells sub-genre"!!).
> Maybe you can expand this list a bit?
>

Depending on what we mean by it, ... but if we say, a genuine presence of faery, I would list David Lindsay's The Haunted Woman. The scene where they look out through a magic window into the past, and see a "troll" with back turned sitting on the grassy slope below, playing the violin. It totally creeped me out. (Would Pan relate to this, or is that a different kind of energy?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 Mar 21 | 11:19AM by Knygatin.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 11:29AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's really interesting.
> >
> > So to expand the list, Tolkien has it, right?,
> and
> > I've not read that much in this sub-genre (Hah!
> > "elfin bells sub-genre"!!).
> > Maybe you can expand this list a bit?
> >
>
> Depending on what we mean by it, ... but if we
> say, a genuine presence of faery, I would list
> David Lindsay's The Haunted Woman. The scene where
> they look out through a magic window into the
> past, and see a "troll" with back turned sitting
> on the grassy slope below, playing the violin. It
> totally creeped me out. (Would Pan relate to this,
> or is that a different kind of energy?)

One wonders just how *well* a troll would play...

Or maybe it's like with the old joke about the dog who could recite Lincoln's Gettysburg address; one shouldn't quibble about the fact that he mispronounces so of the words. This is a *dog* who's doing it, after all...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 12:23PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> One wonders just how *well* a troll would play...
>
> Or maybe it's like with the old joke about the dog
> who could recite Lincoln's Gettysburg address; one
> shouldn't quibble about the fact that he
> mispronounces so of the words. This is a *dog*
> who's doing it, after all...

"Troll" in this novel has a deeper and more serious implication than the popular silly notion entertainment caricature we see pictured in films and children's books. Here it is enchantment and sorcery taken to an adult level, and much of it flows through the expression of the violin. This is some tremendous stuff, simply beyond all common mediocre reproach and mockery.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 8 Mar 21 | 12:45PM by Knygatin.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 01:39PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > One wonders just how *well* a troll would
> play...
> >
> > Or maybe it's like with the old joke about the
> dog
> > who could recite Lincoln's Gettysburg address;
> one
> > shouldn't quibble about the fact that he
> > mispronounces so of the words. This is a *dog*
> > who's doing it, after all...
>
> "Troll" in this novel has a deeper and more
> serious implication than the popular silly notion
> entertainment caricature we see pictured in films
> and children's books. Here it is enchantment and
> sorcery taken to an adult level, and much of it
> flows through the expression of the violin. This
> is some tremendous stuff, simply beyond all common
> mediocre reproach and mockery.

This sounds nuanced and interesting. I'll try it out..

There's that shriek that Oscar, in The Tin Drum does, that has much added significance and power. His drumming, too...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 01:46PM
Knygatin, is The Haunted Woman a novel or a SS?

Having trouble finding it at the library. If it is in a collection, if you know the name of the collection, I will try that.

Thanks!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 03:23PM
I'm an admirer of Lindsay's novel The Haunted Woman too. I like it more than Voyage to Arcturus.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 March, 2021 06:00PM
Ho!

I got a free copy of The Haunted Woman from Project Gutenberg, Australia!

I'll try it out as soon as I finish what I'm reading now.

Thanks for the multiple recommendations!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 9 March, 2021 03:57PM
Perhaps you can post your thoughts on The Haunted Woman in due course.

I've discussed Lindsay a very little with Douglas Anderson, a great admirer of this author. His view seems to be that one should not look to Lindsay's various books and try to precipitate out from them some one, consistent philosophy, but that Lindsay tried different veins of thought in his various books. I have read only this one and Voyage -- oh, and the Academy Chicago version of The Violet Apple, I think, but my impression is that that is an incomplete text (?). I started Devil's Tor & didn't get too far with it.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 9 March, 2021 10:07PM
I have not started reading Devil's Tor yet, aside from the first few paragraphs, but expect great things from it.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 12 March, 2021 08:34PM
Ok, Dale. An early impression.

I can't be more than about 10-12 pages in, and already it seems to me that the author establishes a tremendous amount of indirectly stated sexual tension. Not between the three main characters introduced so far, but a lot of potential sexual energy.

It's like a tremendous charge looking for ground.

I guess I see where this goes, soon enough.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 13 March, 2021 08:59AM
Sawfish, your comment is with regard to The Haunted Woman, I take it. I should say that it's a while since I last read it, so I might not be able to engage much in a discussion.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 13 March, 2021 10:41AM
Dale, yes, sorry. It's about The Haunted Woman.

Still not far enough in to see what's going on, but Lindsay's character descriptions, individually, and in the collective interactions of the story, are far, far above average, in my opinion.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2021 05:10AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > Sawfish Wrote:
> > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > I'll add that I finished Lindsay's "The Haunted
> > > Woman" and was very, very impressed with the
> > > pacing, character development of the principal
> > > character, Isbel (a woman I'd make it a point to
> > > stay well away from), and of the supporting cast.
> > >
> > > The story, itself, seemed to delve into the ideas
> > > of socially repressed sexual desire, "liberated"
> > > in the ultra-dimensional rooms/passages of
> > > Runhill. In this sense, many passages were
> > > electric...
> > >
> > > Good recommendation, K!
> >
> >
> > Did you find the fiddle player seen from the window creepy?
> > I think there was some very good reason we were not
> > allowed to see his face, but only his back. His
> > long hair gave me the jitters. Not quite fully
> > human.
>
> Yes, it was creepy. A tall, broadly built
> *something* that had yellow hair and an
> inexplicable costume...and the instrument he
> played was similarly ambiguous.
>
> I expected that we *would* see his face, and it
> seems like Judge saw it, and died, and earlier
> there was another person who saw it (Mrs. B.?) and
> died also.
>
> Very, very effective book.


Perhaps it should be stacked and locked up alongside the forbidden tomes Necronomicon, The Book of Eibon, and Unaussprechlichen Kulten! Lest the seas will one day run red.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2021 03:25PM
I'm going to set for myself a list of half a dozen fantasy classics to try to read, or reread, by (let's say) the end of summer 2023. These include:

Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros (a 3rd reading; last completed reading 1974)
Dunsany's The Charwoman's Shadow (a 3rd reading; last read 1976)
Hodgson's The Night Land (I read only half of it)
Mirrlees's Lud-in-the-Mist (never read)
Morris's The Sundering Flood (never read)

Knygatin, please suggest a Merritt novel other than The Ship of Ishtar, which I read in 2011. My inclination is to read Dwellers in the Mirage, which I have read, but so long ago that it predates my reading log begun Jan. 1974.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2021 04:42PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Knygatin, please suggest a Merritt novel other
> than The Ship of Ishtar, which I read in 2011. My
> inclination is to read Dwellers in the Mirage,
> which I have read, but so long ago that it
> predates my reading log begun Jan. 1974.

Very difficult, since I am not sure at all our literary tastes and preferences are close. I like the grotesque and bizarre and weird and colorful, while I assume you are more interested in something that supports and builds up human character in the reader. (I like that too, but it is secondary to me when reading fantastic literature.)

I have read The Dwellers in the Mirage once, and found it slow going, with a few touches of excellent fantasy. I mean to reread it some day, but then the uncut magazine version.

I could suggest reading the original short-story version of "The Moon Pool" which is quite fine, and after that continue with the magazine version of The Conquest of the Moon Pool, http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?265331. (It is more pulpy, but has some excellent imagery, like the dragon worm and underground auroras in sparkling colors.) That is what I intend to do next.

I am most impressed with The Metal Monster, again in the longer magazine version and Hippocampus Press edition. And by The Face in the Abyss / The Snake Mother, yet again the two novella magazine versions, far superior to the truncated and melded book version.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2021 05:31PM
Knygatin, thank you -- I will likely give those Moon Pool texts a try.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2021 06:48PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Knygatin, please suggest a Merritt novel other
> > than The Ship of Ishtar, which I read in 2011.
> My
> > inclination is to read Dwellers in the Mirage,
> > which I have read, but so long ago that it
> > predates my reading log begun Jan. 1974.
>
> Very difficult, since I am not sure at all our
> literary tastes and preferences are close. I like
> the grotesque and bizarre and weird and colorful,
> while I assume you are more interested in
> something that supports and builds up human
> character in the reader. (I like that too, but it
> is secondary to me when reading fantastic
> literature.)
>
> I have read The Dwellers in the Mirage once, and
> found it slow going, with a few touches of
> excellent fantasy. I mean to reread it some day,
> but then the uncut magazine version.
>
> I could suggest reading the original short-story
> version of "The Moon Pool" which is quite fine,
> and after that continue with the magazine version
> of The Conquest of the Moon Pool,
> [www.isfdb.org]. (It is
> more pulpy, but has some excellent imagery, like
> the dragon worm and underground auroras in
> sparkling colors.) That is what I intend to do
> next.
>
> I am most impressed with The Metal Monster, again
> in the longer magazine version and Hippocampus
> Press edition. And by The Face in the Abyss / The
> Snake Mother, yet again the two novella magazine
> versions, far superior to the truncated and melded
> book version.


Should this be a good version of "The Moon Pool"?

[archive.org]

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 19 March, 2021 11:56PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Should this be a good version of "The Moon Pool"?
>
> [archive.org]
> ries_september_1939/page/n3/mode/2up

Yes, that is the original 1918 version. Great find!

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2021 12:27AM
Thanks! I appreciate the verification.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2021 12:42AM
If you have not read A. Merritt's short stories in general, I would strongly recommend doing that. The Fox Woman and Other Stories is the most famous collection of these. [www.isfdb.org]

I printed and bound my own version of that book, which also included "The Moon Pool" (1918), "The Pool of the Stone God" (1923), and Merritt's section in the round-robin story "The Challenge From Beyond" (1935) [www.isfdb.org].

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 20 March, 2021 01:33AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am most impressed with The Face in the Abyss / The
> Snake Mother, ... the two novella magazine
> versions, far superior to the truncated and melded
> book version.

The Face in the Abyss [www.isfdb.org] [archive.org] (high resolution version [drive.google.com]) and The Snake Mother [www.isfdb.org] [documentcloud.adobe.com]

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 March, 2021 11:13AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going to set for myself a list of half a dozen
> fantasy classics to try to read, or reread, by
> (let's say) the end of summer 2023. These
> include:
>
> Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros (a 3rd reading; last
> completed reading 1974)
> Dunsany's The Charwoman's Shadow (a 3rd reading;
> last read 1976)
> Hodgson's The Night Land (I read only half of it)
> Mirrlees's Lud-in-the-Mist (never read)
> Morris's The Sundering Flood (never read)
>
> The Moon Pool, Conquest of the Moon Pool

However, I've been stirred to plan to take up Mrs. Radcliffe's The Mysteries of Udolpho again, which may throw off the plan just mentioned. But I mean to read at least some of those within the months to come, including "The Moon Pool."

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 26 March, 2021 03:52AM
ED member Ken K. is very enthusiast about Henry Kuttner's Valley of the Flame. Is there anyone else here who has enjoyed it?

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 6 April, 2021 10:48PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm going to set for myself a list of half a
> dozen
> > fantasy classics to try to read, or reread, by
> > (let's say) the end of summer 2023. These
> > include:
> >
> > Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros (a 3rd reading;
> last
> > completed reading 1974)
> > Dunsany's The Charwoman's Shadow (a 3rd
> reading;
> > last read 1976)
> > Hodgson's The Night Land (I read only half of
> it)
> > Mirrlees's Lud-in-the-Mist (never read)
> > Morris's The Sundering Flood (never read)
> >
> > The Moon Pool, Conquest of the Moon Pool
>
> However, I've been stirred to plan to take up Mrs.
> Radcliffe's The Mysteries of Udolpho again, which
> may throw off the plan just mentioned. But I mean
> to read at least some of those within the months
> to come, including "The Moon Pool."


You might also enjoy Henry S. Whitehead, an Anglican minister, who wrote fantastic tales set in the West Indies.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 7 April, 2021 09:15AM
Knygatin, I read some of Whitehead many years ago -- around 1985. My memory is that I probably regarded his writing as "okay." I might have missed some work that would have impressed me more.

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 9 April, 2021 10:37AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, I read some of Whitehead many years ago
> -- around 1985. My memory is that I probably
> regarded his writing as "okay." I might have
> missed some work that would have impressed me
> more.

Lovecraft praised particularly "Passing of a God", "The Black Beast", "The Great Circle", and "Hill Drums".

Re: Golden Age of Modern Fantasy
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 9 April, 2021 02:19PM
Knygatin, thanks -- I believe I read at least one or two of those back in the early 1980s. I had interlibrary loan access to (among other libraries) the University of Illinois's Carbondale campus, where, it appeared, someone had donated an Arkham House collection. I believe I got hold of both of the AH collections of Whitehead as well as other AH books. My impression is that I came to suspect that quite a bit of AH material was not of great interest to me, but it was fun to have these books in my hands and read around a bit. Quite a bit ended up being read aloud to my wife; we'd been married a couple of years or so and one of the matters we had in common was having been immersed in Lovecraft's fiction, etc.

Anyway, I might give Whitehead another look since you have mentioned him.



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