Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I rather like it. It is colorful and attractive.
> The back cover is also painted in a similar
> impressionistic style, but it is real
> impressionism, and not some piece of meaningless
> modern art.


Agreed. It looks stunning alongside the old Ballantines in this picture! Deeper and richer contrasts than the advertisement I saw before. CAS Ballantines, old and "one new".

Ancient History, have you looked closer at the texts and typography arrangement? Do they look ok? Old versions or unexpurgated?

It does not include The Satyr and A Night in Malnéant, like the other collection.

stevereplogle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just now noticed that "The Averoigne
> Archives" is only an e-book, and not a paperback!

Trade paperback version: The Averoigne Archives

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It does not include The Satyr and A Night in
> Malnéant, like the other collection.

IIRC, the second of these is not an Averoigne story. I guess it was included because of the French-derived name in the title.

Platypus, I’m afraid you're mistaken about the status of at least some CAS's copyrights, and are giving the Eldritch Dark community bad information that could potentially get someone in trouble if they believed you and tried to publish CAS's material without first obtaining the proper reprint licenses.

CAS's material that was copyrighted with him as the claimant lasted for 28 years after publication. When he died in 1961, his wife Carol inherited his copyrights. Before they expired, however, she renewed the copyrights for an additional 28 years for at least three of his collections: "Nero and Other Poems", "Out of Space and Time", and "Lost Worlds". The U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 retroactively extended that copyright renewal period to 47 years, and the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 extended it for yet another 20 years, for a total of 67 years. When Carol died, her son William Dorman inherited them, and the copyrights are still in effect until the 2030s:

• "Nero and Other Poems": published 1937, renewed 1964, expires in 2031
• "Out of Space and Time": published in 1942, renewed in 1970, expires in 2037
• "Lost Worlds": published in 1944, renewed in 1972, expires in 2039

While I can't say for sure about CAS's other material, the following stories and poems are absolutely, positively, 100% still legally under copyright, held by William Dorman:

STORIES
A Night in Malnéant
A Rendezvous in Averoigne
A Voyage to Sfanomoë
Necromancy in Naat
The Beast of Averoigne
The Chain of Aforgomon
The City of the Singing Flame
The Coming of the White Worm
The Dark Eidolon
The Death of Ilalotha
The Death of Malygris
The Demon of the Flower
The Door to Saturn
The Double Shadow
The Empire of the Necromancers
The End of the Story
The Flower-Women
The Gorgon
The Holiness of Azedarac
The Hunters from Beyond
The Isle of the Torturers
The Last Hieroglyph
The Last Incantation
The Letter from Mohaun Los / Flight into Super-Time
The Light from Beyond
The Maze of Maal Dweb
The Monster of the Prophecy
The Planet of the Dead
The Plutonian Drug
The Return of the Sorcerer
The Second Interment
The Seven Geases
The Tale of Satampra Zeiros
The Testament of Athammaus
The Uncharted Isle
The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis
The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan
Ubbo-Sathla
Xeethra

POETRY
A Dream of Beauty
A Song of Dreams
Chant to Sirius
From the Crypts of Memory
Medusa
Nero
Outlanders
Retrospect and Forecast
Sadastor
The Eldritch Dark
The Shadows
The Song of a Comet
The Winds
To the Darkness

This includes at least four of the ten Averoigne stories. If Inpatient Press didn't obtain the permission of CAS's heirs (which, to the best of my knowledge, they have not), then they are in violation of the copyright.

Finally, Platypus, you've stated repeatedly (and rather forcefully so) that all of CAS's work is in the public domain, but you haven't offered us any proof. Why do you think that? Do you have any evidence or documentation to back up your claim? If so, please post it here. Thanks!

SirNolen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus, I’m afraid you're mistaken about the
> status of at least some CAS's copyrights, and are
> giving the Eldritch Dark community bad information
> that could potentially get someone in trouble if
> they believed you and tried to publish CAS's
> material without first obtaining the proper
> reprint licenses.

I said nothing about publishing books; only about purchasing them. All I am saying is that nobody owes it to Mr. Dorman to only purchase books that come with his approval. He has proven nothing to us readers, and we readers owe him nothing.

But yeah. Before you publish your own AVEROIGNE collection, hire a good copyright lawyer, and/or do good copyright research, rather than relying on what an anonymous person says on the internet. It might even be a good idea to get "permission" from Mr. Dorman, for the pragmatic reasons I already explained.

> CAS's material that was copyrighted with him as
> the claimant lasted for 28 years after
> publication.

Most would have expired, then, if not renewed.

> When he died in 1961, his wife Carol
> inherited his copyrights.

Only those that passed to her.

> Before they expired,
> however, she renewed the copyrights for an
> additional 28 years for at least three of his
> collections: "Nero and Other Poems", "Out of Space
> and Time", and "Lost Worlds".

None of which contained original material. So, in essence, the "collections" were renewed, as collections, but the stories and poems within them expired. Only the overall title and arrangement was copyrighted and renewed.

> The U.S. Copyright
> Act of 1976 retroactively extended that copyright
> renewal period to 47 years, ...

This had no effect on material that was not renewed. That which WAS renewed lasted long enough to be extended again by Sonny Bono in 1992.

> ... and the Sonny Bono
> Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 extended it
> for yet another 20 years, for a total of 67 years.

These copyright acts did not "retroactively" extend copyrights on material that had already entered public domain. Hence, the first Sonny Bono act of 1992 only reached back 28 years, to 1978. Material published before 1978, and not renewed, was not extended.

> • "Nero and Other Poems": published 1937,
> renewed 1964, expires in 2031

This is a selection of material from The Star-Treader and Other Poems, which was published in 1912 and never renewed. All public domain.

> • "Out of Space and Time": published in 1942,
> renewed in 1970, expires in 2037

All of the stories in this collection were previously published, years earlier. In 1970, it was already too late to renew them. Their 28-year copyright term had already expired. They were already public domain.

> • "Lost Worlds": published in 1944, renewed in
> 1972, expires in 2039

Ditto. No original material was in this collection. By the time 1972 rolled around each story was already over 28 years old, and had already entered public domain.

> While I can't say for sure about CAS's other
> material, the following stories and poems are
> absolutely, positively, 100% still legally under
> copyright, held by William Dorman:

LOL! Even if they were under copyright (which apparently they are not) that would not prove that Mr. Dorman holds the copyright. Who are you anyway? Someone shilling for Mr. Dorman?

> STORIES
> A Night in Malnéant
> A Rendezvous in Averoigne
> A Voyage to Sfanomoë
> Necromancy in Naat
> The Beast of Averoigne
> The Chain of Aforgomon
> The City of the Singing Flame
> The Coming of the White Worm
> The Dark Eidolon
> The Death of Ilalotha
> The Death of Malygris
> The Demon of the Flower
> The Door to Saturn
> The Double Shadow
> The Empire of the Necromancers
> The End of the Story
> The Flower-Women
> The Gorgon
> The Holiness of Azedarac
> The Hunters from Beyond
> The Isle of the Torturers
> The Last Hieroglyph
> The Last Incantation
> The Letter from Mohaun Los / Flight into
> Super-Time
> The Light from Beyond
> The Maze of Maal Dweb
> The Monster of the Prophecy
> The Planet of the Dead
> The Plutonian Drug
> The Return of the Sorcerer
> The Second Interment
> The Seven Geases
> The Tale of Satampra Zeiros
> The Testament of Athammaus
> The Uncharted Isle
> The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis
> The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan
> Ubbo-Sathla
> Xeethra
>
> POETRY
> A Dream of Beauty
> A Song of Dreams
> Chant to Sirius
> From the Crypts of Memory
> Medusa
> Nero
> Outlanders
> Retrospect and Forecast
> Sadastor
> The Eldritch Dark
> The Shadows
> The Song of a Comet
> The Winds
> To the Darkness

It seems to me that all you have done here is list the contents of the 3 volumes mentioned. But none of this material is protected by copyright for the reasons already explained.

> This includes at least four of the ten Averoigne
> stories. If Inpatient Press didn't obtain the
> permission of CAS's heirs (which, to the best of
> my knowledge, they have not), then they are in
> violation of the copyright.

Then CAS's heirs (whoever they are) should go sue them. In the meantime, just to help Inpatient Press stand up to frivolous lawsuits from lying bullies, I suggest we all buy our CAS material from Inpatient Press.

> Finally, Platypus, you've stated repeatedly (and
> rather forcefully so) that all of CAS's work is in
> the public domain, but you haven't offered us any
> proof.

Firstly, I said no such thing (and why the blatant lie?). Secondly, why should I have to prove anything? Let Mr. Dorman show us his copyright renewals, and other proofs. If all he has is what you've listed above, then he's got nothing.

> Why do you think that? Do you have any
> evidence or documentation to back up your claim?

I offer, as Exhibit A, a blatantly dishonest argument here being made by some shill for CASiana (you). From now on, I will not buy anything approved by CASiana, as a matter of principle. You've managed to annoy me by trying to pull the wool over my eyes on their behalf. Good work!



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 26 Aug 19 | 02:44PM by Platypus.

I followed the links you provided, but they did not lead to a paperback version actually on sale for purchase. Amazon had one "proof copy" that was no longer available. I'll just keep checking back, I suppose. I'm especially interested in the second volume, collecting Averoigne stories by other authors. I don;t have any e-readers, so it has to be a real book for me!

Very provocative thread here; thought I'd add my opinion:

A RENDEZVOUS IN AVEROIGNE Arkham House 1988 Copyright by CASiana Literary Enterprises.
ZOTHIQUE,HYPERBOREA,XICCARPH,POSEIDONIS, Ballantine Books by permission of Mrs Clark Ashton Smith.
RED WORLD OF POLARIS, COLLECTED FANTASIES OF CLARK ASHTON SMITH VOLUMES 1-5, MISCELLANEOUS WRITINGS, Nightshade Press Copyright by the estate of Clark Ashton Smith.
THE DARK EIDOLON AND OTHER FANTASIES, Penguin Classics 2014 Copyright by CASiana Literary Enterprises.
TALES OF ZOTHIQUE, THE BOOK OF HYPERBOREA, THE UNEXPURGATED SERIES, Necronomicon Press by permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.
THE CITY OF THE SINGING FLAME, THE LAST INCANTATION, THE MONSTER OF THE PROPHECY, Timescape books, with permission of the Estate of Clark Ashton Smith.
THE AVEROIGNE CHRONICLES, IN THE REALMS OF MYSTERY AND WONDER, Centipede Press by permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.
THE AVEROINGE ARCHIVES, Pickman's Press, with the permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.

I could go on, but it's getting rather tedious; suffice to say that virtually every book by CAS published since his death is copyrighted by or has the permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises. Why Mr Platypus feels he knows better than all these publishers, their agents and lawyers (not to mention such notable scholars and editors as Donald Sidney-Fryer and S.T. Joshi) is beyond me, but of course he is welcome to his own opinion. And that's all his rhetoric amounts to, his opinion. I agree with Sir Nolen and that's why I wrote the intro for THE AVEROIGNE ARCHIVES, because he went through the proper channels and received the permission of Smith's estate.

Regarding Inpatient Press: Yes, they are pirates. They simply stole the online texts (and didn't even know enough to include all the Averoigne tales) and printed up a book in order to make money off someone else's property. If you check out their web page you will see they apparently specialize in pornography of a particularly raunchy kind . . . not the sort of publisher that deserves our support! I was actually the "shill" who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this book and he immediately hit them with a cease and desist order. I agree with those who love the idea of an Averoigne edition that matches up with the Ballantine Adult Fantasy books, and I also like their cover illustration, but this is irrelevant.

If Mr Platypus is sincere about not buying any books approved by CASiana then perhaps he should also get rid of all his books approved by CASiana as well and see what he has left . . . pulp magazines and Arkham editions containing heavily edited and typo-filled texts. Perhaps (if he is serious and not simply a hypocrite) he should also cease to use this Eldritch Dark site as it also exists by the permission of CASiana.

casofile Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could go on, but it's getting rather tedious;

Damned tedious. Collections are always copyrighted, even if they contain no original material. Every time a publisher publishes a new collection of 19th-century and other public domain material, it says "Copyright 2019 by Ash Tree Press", or whatever. This is a desperate non-argument.

> suffice to say that virtually every book by CAS
> published since his death is copyrighted by or has
> the permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.

Obviously, everyone does not do it, or we would not be having this discussion about whether those who don't do it are "pirates", guilty of "stealing" Mr. Dorman's intellectual property.

But yes, publishers do tend to do this, for the reasons I explained. It does not necessarily mean that anything is actually protected by a valid copyright.

> Why Mr Platypus feels he knows better ...

I've never cited myself as an authority for anything. Nor have I advised anyone to publish without permission of Mr. Dorman. I have not even so much as advised anyone to make an authorized photocopy in a library.

My position is that Mr. Dorman has proven nothing to us readers, and we readers owe him nothing. That's not how copyright works anyway. If you have valid copyright claim, you should get the courts involved and go after the publisher, and not go around harassing members of the public for buying the wrong book.

> ... than all
> these publishers, their agents and lawyers (not to
> mention such notable scholars and editors as
> Donald Sidney-Fryer and S.T. Joshi) is beyond me,
> but of course he is welcome to his own opinion.

And which of these people (besides you) have publicly accused Inpatient Press of copyright piracy?

And since when does a vested interest in bad-mouthing the competition and hyping one's own product give a person extra credibility? Mr. Joshi is not even a lawyer, last time I checked.

> And that's all his rhetoric amounts to, his
> opinion. I agree with Sir Nolen and that's why I
> wrote the intro for THE AVEROIGNE ARCHIVES,
> because he went through the proper channels and
> received the permission of Smith's estate.

And this makes you an expert on copyright law, somehow?

> Regarding Inpatient Press: Yes, they are pirates.
> They simply stole the online texts (and didn't
> even know enough to include all the Averoigne
> tales) and printed up a book in order to make
> money off someone else's property.

Well then. If this is really the case, then I humbly suggest that Mr. Dorman and his buddies cease this slimy smear campaign against his competition, and GO SUE THEM!!!!!

If Mr. Dorman could win in a court of law (which apparently he can't) you would have no need to conduct this slimy public smear campaign.

> If you check out their web page you will see they apparently specialize in
> pornography of a particularly raunchy kind . . .

Is this how you back up your charge of copyright piracy? By changing the subject and hurling more mud? Slimy, slimy, slimy.

> I was actually the "shill"
> who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this
> book and he immediately hit them with a cease and
> desist order.

I suspect you mean a "cease and desist letter"? What's he going to do when Inpatient Press calls his bluff? Never mind. It is not my problem. If Mr. Dorman has a case, then the law is his remedy. He can get an injunction, or seize any profits, or both. This is not something that I as a humble member of the public need worry about. He's got nothing on me. I did not copy anything.

Again, Mr. Dorman has proven nothing to me, and I owe him nothing.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 9 Sep 19 | 04:02PM by Platypus.

casofile Wrote:
> Perhaps (if he is
> serious and not simply a hypocrite) he should also
> cease to use this Eldritch Dark site as it also
> exists by the permission of CASiana.

This is a very strange charge of "hypocrisy". Why would I have any grief with The Eldritch Dark? So far, they have not even censored my posts, which I am sure you would like them to do.

I don't know what the relationship is between CASiana and The Eldritch Dark. However, obviously, the Eldritch Dark has no power whatsoever to prevent CASiana from giving it all the permissions it pleases. It seems, however, that if CASiana has enough clout to force The Eldritch Dark to SAY it is using the texts only with CASiana's permission, it has so far failed to exercise that clout. Either that, or the disclaimer is hidden somewhere I cannot easily find.

If Mr. Dorman likes, then CASiana can also give permission to Inpatient Press. I'm sure they can't stop him either.

I clicked around and did find this websites "Notes on Copyright". It is on the bottom of the page entitled "About the ED" created in 1998 and last updated 2013. It is rather uncommittal as to who owns the various copyrights. It does, however, acknowledge "permission" for non-profit use from CASiana and Arkham House (but without, for obvious reasons, expressing an opinion as which of these two entities owns which copyrights for which specific works, or versions of works).

There, this website encourages readers of the site to buy every "in print" copy of Clark Ashton Smith's work they can find.

Which is, IMHO, a fairly good strategy for ensuring that profits ultimately go to whoever (if anyone) actually owns the copyright. After all, it does not make sense to expect members of the general public to have an opinion as to who owns which copyright. If any piracy is done, the pirates can be sued and their profits seized, by anyone who is actually able to prove their claims in a court of law.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10 Sep 19 | 09:04AM by Platypus.

casofile Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was actually the "shill"
> who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this
> book and he immediately hit them with a cease and
> desist order.

It is also perhaps worth mentioning, that the most likely result of this "cease and desist" letter, is the parties will end up negotiating permissions, which will duly appear on future printings. This makes sense to do, no matter how frivolous the copyright claim, for reasons already explained.

I can't speak for the first two books but the third one, "The Averoigne Legacy" is due out (ebook) by Halloween and the paperback will shortly follow. "The Averoigne Legacy" is a collection of poems and stories by contemporary authors revolving around Averoigne.

Thank you for this information about "The Averoigne Legacy." I look forward to it! And now. Halloween is right around the3 corner...

casofile Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regarding Inpatient Press: Yes, they are pirates.
> They simply stole the online texts (and didn't
> even know enough to include all the Averoigne
> tales) and printed up a book in order to make
> money off someone else's property. If you check
> out their web page you will see they apparently
> specialize in pornography of a particularly
> raunchy kind . . . not the sort of publisher that
> deserves our support! I was actually the "shill"
> who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this
> book and he immediately hit them with a cease and
> desist order. I agree with those who love the idea
> of an Averoigne edition that matches up with the
> Ballantine Adult Fantasy books, and I also like
> their cover illustration, but this is irrelevant.
>
>

I find this deeply regrettable. I strongly urge Inpatient Press to amend the texts, and add "The Satyr". Then I will buy the paperback, no matter what, for it is very nice in appearance, pirate or not. I don't think CAS would turn around in his grave if I bought it. Who hasn't pirated records in their collections? But if Inpatient Press did amend, I see no reason why the book should not be given permission by CASiana. And, of course, Will Murray, Steve Behrends, Scott Connors, and Ron Hilger, fairly should be given credit for their unexpurgating of the texts.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... I will buy the paperback, no matter
> what, ... pirate or
> not. .... Who hasn't pirated records
> in their collections? ...


If you really stretch it, even buying second hand and antique books is piracy. Because the original publisher and writer receives nothing from it. And the former owner gets back the money he paid, and in the end has read the book for free.

Living in the human shell is one long outdrawn immoral act of theft and atrocity. We buffet our way around, and even kidnap and eat other living beings. It is not a pretty sight when we think of it.

It can also be viewed in a different way: that none of it matters. It is ultimately not important. We all pull in in different directions. The artist/editor/publisher struggles to get a profit back from his efforts, which is perfectly fine. I the reader, on the other hand, want a nice book, but don't care a whole lot where it comes from, as long as it is a beauty. If I have a personal relationship to the artist/editor/publisher, then naturally I care more.