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Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 09:04AM
I have noticed advertisements for two new Averoigne paperbacks, with a third perhaps to follow. I wonder if members here can comment upon them?

The first is "Averoigne," edited by by M. E. Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt and with a foreword by Kit Schlüter. It is advertised as being "printed in the style of the erstwhile Ballantine Books Adult Fantasy Series" by Inpatient Phantaisies.

The second is "The Averoigne Archives: The Complete Averoigne Tales by CAS" by Pickman's Press, edited by Edward Stasheff, with an introduction by Ron Hilger and a map by Tim Kirk.

In the back of this book (as seen in the Amazon preview pages) there is an ad for "The Averoigne Legacy" with two dozen poems and stories by various authors.

Is the first book legitimate? I know that sometimes there are unauthorized, pirated editions of Smith's work. Is the second book, as I suspect, the "authorized" version? Since Ron has written the introduction, it seems that way. Perhaps it is a paperback version of the recent hardcover by Centipede Press?

I apologize if I have missed information about these books before. I searched the forum here, but did not find mention of them.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 01:36PM
Clark Ashton Smith has been dead for many decades. He is in no position to authorize any new editions of anything. Some new editions may be better or worse than others. But "authorized" has nothing to do with that.

I would suspect that a major chunk of Smith's work is public domain. When such is the case, the distinction between "pirated" and "legitimate" is meaningless. But certain items may still be protected by copyright. In such cases, getting the appropriate legal permissions from the copyright holder (whoever that is - I would guess someone with no meaningful connection to Clark Ashton Smith) would be a legal matter.

That said, I'm afraid I have no opinion on the editions you mention.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 02:12PM
For whatever it is worth, The Averoigne Archives includes front matter claiming it is published with the permission of "CASiana Enterprises, the literary estate of Clark Ashton Smith".

That sort of thing is standard verbiage, though. It does not necessarily follow that it contains a single story or poem that is not public domain. AFAIK, it does not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Aug 19 | 02:25PM by Platypus.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 04:14PM
Yes, Platypus, I know know that Smith could not personally authorize these books. I used the word "authorized" because I understood in the past there was an estate involved with Smith's legacy - as you note in your second post. I don't know any more than that, however.

As to some new editions being better or worse than others... that's a good question, and part of why I posted about this originally. Do you (or any other Forum members) have either of these books? If the legalities are unclear, what about the objects themselves? Are they printed well, are there obvious errors? How is the binding? Is the paper good quality?

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 06:53PM
stevereplogle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Platypus, I know know that Smith could not
> personally authorize these books. I used the word
> "authorized" because I understood in the past
> there was an estate involved with Smith's legacy -
> as you note in your second post. I don't know any
> more than that, however.

Yes, a corporation apparently exists. It styles itself the "literary estate" of CAS. It may have acquired, probably for a pittance, the copyrights to that small handful of CAS works that are still protected by copyright law, which are probably not the works that anyone wants to read.

The practice in the industry seems to be that when someone wants to publish public domain material, he reaches out to such a corporation for "permission". This permission may be granted for a tiny sum or entirely free of charge, especially if one calls any bluff the corporation might try to make, and displays knowledge that the corporation has no real rights. The reason why it might make sense to do this, even though the would-be publisher knows this corporation has no rights whatsoever, is that the illusion of someone performing such a gate-keeping function helps limit competition for the material one is about to publish.

All I am saying, is that the opinion, permission, or authorization, of such a corporation means nothing to you or I. At least, if there is any reason why this corporation's opinion might matter, I don't know what it is. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that all CAS's Averoigne stories, including everything in the table of contents of The Averoigne Archives, are public domain.

> As to some new editions being better or worse than
> others... that's a good question, and part of why
> I posted about this originally. Do you (or any
> other Forum members) have either of these books?
> If the legalities are unclear, what about the
> objects themselves? Are they printed well, are
> there obvious errors? How is the binding? Is the
> paper good quality?

Sorry. All I have been able to do is view sample pages on Amazon.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Ancient History (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 10:01PM
I bought a copy of M. E. Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt's book for kicks. Basic print-on-demand stuff, nothing spectacular.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Chipougne (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 03:16AM
Platypus Wrote:
> Yes, a corporation apparently exists. It styles
> itself the "literary estate" of CAS. It may have
> acquired, probably for a pittance, the copyrights
> to that small handful of CAS works that are still
> protected by copyright law, which are probably not
> the works that anyone wants to read.


Not exactly. Smith's literary estate has been represented for about 40 years by his stepson, William A. Dorman, professor of Government Emeritus at California State University, Sacramento (son of Carol Jones Dorman whom Smith married in 1954), director of CASiana Literary Enterprises. Due to the intricacies of US copyright laws, many Smith stories are now in the public domain, but not all of them, far from it. Not to mention his artwork. And that doesn’t apply to foreign publications. In most of the world, the default length of copyright is the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years and in numerous countries Smith’s work is not PD at all and is still being published under the supervision of W. Dorman.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 11:00AM
I find it odd that Necronomicon Press, which is still active, have not followed up on their excellent Zothique and Hyperborea volumes, after all these years, with an Averoigne volume. Let Jason C. Eckhardt do the cover artwork. It will be a winner.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 04:02PM
Chipougne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus Wrote:
> > Yes, a corporation apparently exists. It
> styles
> > itself the "literary estate" of CAS. It may
> have
> > acquired, probably for a pittance, the
> copyrights
> > to that small handful of CAS works that are
> still
> > protected by copyright law, which are probably
> not
> > the works that anyone wants to read.
>
>
> Not exactly. Smith's literary estate has been
> represented for about 40 years by his stepson,
> William A. Dorman, professor of Government
> Emeritus at California State University,
> Sacramento (son of Carol Jones Dorman whom Smith
> married in 1954), director of CASiana Literary
> Enterprises.

Thanks for the information, for whatever it is worth. But if you start your response with "not exactly", you should probably get around, eventually, to saying something that contradicts what I wrote. You never did.

Obviously, the copyrights were not originally held by Casiana Literary Entirprises. So either it acquired them (maybe Dorman transferred them to it), or it has nothing to do with any copyrights, and is not in any meaningful sense a "literary estate".

Dorman's status as "director" may be little more than a name on a 40-year old certificate of incorporation. Meanwhile, California lists the corporation as inactive and no longer authorized to do business, probably for failure to update it's filings for the last 40 years. But why would it update it's filings, if it has no plans to sue anybody? And why would it have plans to sue anyone, if it owns no valuable copyrights?

The true party in interest is whoever owns the corporation. This may be Dorman; or it might not be. Even if Dorman once owned the corporation (unclear), he may have sold it at some point in the last 40 years (again, probably for a pittance). If he sold it, he would remain the "director" on incorporation documents, as long as nobody took the trouble to change it. And whoever he sold it to, may have bargained for the right to throw Dorman's name around for a little moral authority (such as it is).

Meanwhile, I don't know Dorman. Even if he remains the true party of interest, it is unclear why this should mean anything to me one way or another.

But I guess it is nice that he once knew CAS.

> Due to the intricacies of US
> copyright laws, many Smith stories are now in the
> public domain, but not all of them, far from it.

Well, you don't mention any. The context of the discussion is the Averoigne stories, such as (for instance) those published in the two books referred to by the OP.

> And that doesn’t
> apply to foreign publications. In most of the
> world, the default length of copyright is the life
> of the author plus either 50 or 70 years and in
> numerous countries Smith’s work is not PD at all
> and is still being published under the supervision
> of W. Dorman.

The copyright in the United States is life of the author plus 70 years. The reason this does not extend to most of CAS's work is because most of his work had already entered public domain, by the time the current copyright laws went into effect.

The reason it works this way, is because it would be messy and stupid to try to reclaim material that had already entered public domain. That's not going to change just because you hop international boundaries.

Various international treaties extend US copyright to foreign jurisdictions to a greater or lesser extent. But no treaty would enforce copyright in a foreign country that was already public domain in the country of origin. That would make no sense.

So US Copyright Law does not help, and international treaties won't help.

But you seem to hint at the hope that there may be some foreign jurisdiction which, will, on the strength of their own laws, enforce rights to an author's work, no matter where published, merely because the author died less than 70 years ago, even if that work is public domain in its nation of origin. But you don't identify any such foreign jurisdiction that does this. And I'm guessing most of us don't live there.

But yes of course. Publishers, foreign and local, will, as a matter of general policy, tend to be happy to seek the "permission" or "supervision" of "Casiana Literary Enterprises". But this is for the reasons I stated. And also, perhaps, because it is cheaper and easier than researching the intricacies of US copyright law. All else is (probably) mere puffery.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 07:40PM
Or perhaps we could convince Ballantine books to make a small resurrection of their Adult Fantasy series, and hire Gervasio Gallardo. Gallardo has had a long career, and is still around.
But I think I would personally prefer Necronomicon Press, and their honorable predisposition for unexpurgated texts.

Anyway, ... I never proposed to be a realist. I am a dreamer.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 01:09AM
I appreciate this discussion - like Knygatin, I would love a Ballantine-like edition. In fact, that is one of the enticements the possibly-pirated edition holds. It is said to be modeled after the Ballantine CAS books. At any rate, I just now noticed that "The Averoigne Archives" is only an e-book, and not a paperback!

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Chipougne (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 04:08AM
In most countries outside the US, and especially here in Europe where Author's rights — as opposed to Copyright — prevail, Smith’s work won’t be in the public domain until January 1st 2032.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors%27_rights

As the beneficiary of the work of Smith, M. Dorman is entitled to grant or deny permission to use the said work under these jurisdictions. Which is why, for instance, the legal notes of the 2017 French edition of the work of Smith read as follow: «Published in agreement with William A. Dorman c/o Executor, c/o CASiana Entreprises, Literary Estate of Clark Ashton Smith 4543 North Ave. Sacramento, CA 95821 USA.»
https://www.mnemos.com/auteurs/clark-ashton-smith/

Whether or not M. Dorman would be willing to prosecute, say, a French publisher who would use Smith’s work without his approval before a French court is open to debate. I doubt it would be worth it financially, but he could.

United States only became a signatory to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works in 1989, and incorporated a version of moral rights under its copyright law under Title 17 of the U.S. Code. Moral rights were first recognized in France, even before they were included in the Berne Convention in 1928, which makes us perhaps more sensitive to these matters.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 8 Aug 19 | 04:20AM by Chipougne.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 11:40AM
stevereplogle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Averoigne," edited by by M. E.
> Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt and with a foreword by
> Kit Schlüter. It is advertised as being "printed
> in the style of the erstwhile Ballantine Books
> Adult Fantasy Series"


I like it (the cover). Although a tad sketchy. Looks like a promising study for a more detailed illustration. The wolf is barely discernible.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 01:06PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stevereplogle Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Averoigne," edited by by M. E.
> > Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt and with a foreword
> by
> > Kit Schlüter. It is advertised as being
> "printed
> > in the style of the erstwhile Ballantine Books
> > Adult Fantasy Series"
>
>
> I like it (the cover). Although a tad sketchy.
> Looks like a promising study for a more detailed
> illustration. The wolf is barely discernible.

I rather like it. It is colorful and attractive. The back cover is also painted in a similar impressionistic style, but it is real impressionism, and not some piece of meaningless modern art.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 02:33PM
Chipougne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In most countries outside the US, and especially
> here in Europe where Author's rights — as
> opposed to Copyright — prevail, Smith’s work
> won’t be in the public domain until January 1st
> 2032.
> [en.wikipedia.org]

It has not been established that any so-called "author's rights" were ever transferred to Mr. Dorman. He is the child, by a prior marriage, of a woman CAS was married to at the time of his death. This in no way establishes that he currently holds any "author's rights".

BTW, "author's rights" is merely a type of "copyright" used in foreign jurisdictions. The distinction between "author's rights" and "copyright" is not particularly relevant to this discussion.

In any event, nothing in the article you link to claims that material that has fallen out of copyright in a country of origin will be protected in most foreign jurisdictions. Certainly, the Berne Convention (at least) would grant no such protection.

> As the beneficiary of the work of Smith, M. Dorman
> is entitled to grant or deny permission to use the
> said work under these jurisdictions.

Sure. I could also grant you permission. I could also refuse to grant you permission. Since I have no rights, you are under no obligation to care. But, if you failed to call my bluff, I might end up as a "beneficiary" of the author's work.

> Which is why,
> for instance, the legal notes of the 2017 French
> edition of the work of Smith read as follow:
> «Published in agreement with William A. Dorman
> c/o Executor, c/o CASiana Entreprises, Literary
> Estate of Clark Ashton Smith 4543 North Ave.
> Sacramento, CA 95821 USA.»
> [www.mnemos.com]

Nothing in this statement claims that Mr. Dorman is the current holder of any "copyright" or so-called "author's rights". It does not even use the term "permission", which is a common form of puffery used by entities who do not necessarily have any legal rights.

Even worse, you are talking about a TRANSLATION. "Casiana Literary Enterprises" may indeed have been part of an agreement with those who seek to publish the newly copyrighted translation. Might as well get him involved, for reasons already described. That, however, means nothing to anyone on this forum. We can all read English, and have no interest in reading CAS's works in a newly-copyrighted French translation, regardless of any involvement that "Casiana Literary Enterprises" may have had.

> Whether or not M. Dorman would be willing to
> prosecute, say, a French publisher who would use
> Smith’s work without his approval before a
> French court is open to debate. I doubt it would
> be worth it financially, but he could.

Anyone can file a frivolous lawsuit.

But hey, I am no expert on the crazy laws of some foreign jurisdictions. It may well be that if Mr. Anzuoni made the mistake of taking a vacation in France, he could be arrested by the French police as soon as he stepped off the airplane. I doubt it, but if it should happen to be true, it only proves we should all stay away from France.

> United States only became a signatory to the Berne
> Convention for the Protection of Literary and
> Artistic Works in 1989, and incorporated a version
> of moral rights under its copyright law under
> Title 17 of the U.S. Code.

Most of CAS's works are public domain in the U.S.

Hence, they are also unprotected under the Berne Convention, which does not protect material that is not protected (by copyright or "author's rights") in the country of origin.

The concept of "moral rights" (a sub-category of "author's rights") has no particular relevance to what we are discussing. Both are "terms of art", with no necessary connection to morality or the "rights" of dead authors.

> Moral rights were first
> recognized in France, even before they were
> included in the Berne Convention in 1928, which
> makes us perhaps more sensitive to these matters.

Why are you talking about "moral rights"?



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 8 Aug 19 | 02:59PM by Platypus.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 06:56PM
Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I rather like it. It is colorful and attractive.
> The back cover is also painted in a similar
> impressionistic style, but it is real
> impressionism, and not some piece of meaningless
> modern art.


Agreed. It looks stunning alongside the old Ballantines in this picture! Deeper and richer contrasts than the advertisement I saw before. CAS Ballantines, old and "one new".

Ancient History, have you looked closer at the texts and typography arrangement? Do they look ok? Old versions or unexpurgated?

It does not include The Satyr and A Night in Malnéant, like the other collection.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 06:59PM
stevereplogle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just now noticed that "The Averoigne
> Archives" is only an e-book, and not a paperback!

Trade paperback version: The Averoigne Archives

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 9 August, 2019 12:15PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It does not include The Satyr and A Night in
> Malnéant, like the other collection.

IIRC, the second of these is not an Averoigne story. I guess it was included because of the French-derived name in the title.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: SirNolen (IP Logged)
Date: 26 August, 2019 01:13PM
Platypus, I’m afraid you're mistaken about the status of at least some CAS's copyrights, and are giving the Eldritch Dark community bad information that could potentially get someone in trouble if they believed you and tried to publish CAS's material without first obtaining the proper reprint licenses.

CAS's material that was copyrighted with him as the claimant lasted for 28 years after publication. When he died in 1961, his wife Carol inherited his copyrights. Before they expired, however, she renewed the copyrights for an additional 28 years for at least three of his collections: "Nero and Other Poems", "Out of Space and Time", and "Lost Worlds". The U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 retroactively extended that copyright renewal period to 47 years, and the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 extended it for yet another 20 years, for a total of 67 years. When Carol died, her son William Dorman inherited them, and the copyrights are still in effect until the 2030s:

• "Nero and Other Poems": published 1937, renewed 1964, expires in 2031
• "Out of Space and Time": published in 1942, renewed in 1970, expires in 2037
• "Lost Worlds": published in 1944, renewed in 1972, expires in 2039

While I can't say for sure about CAS's other material, the following stories and poems are absolutely, positively, 100% still legally under copyright, held by William Dorman:

STORIES
A Night in Malnéant
A Rendezvous in Averoigne
A Voyage to Sfanomoë
Necromancy in Naat
The Beast of Averoigne
The Chain of Aforgomon
The City of the Singing Flame
The Coming of the White Worm
The Dark Eidolon
The Death of Ilalotha
The Death of Malygris
The Demon of the Flower
The Door to Saturn
The Double Shadow
The Empire of the Necromancers
The End of the Story
The Flower-Women
The Gorgon
The Holiness of Azedarac
The Hunters from Beyond
The Isle of the Torturers
The Last Hieroglyph
The Last Incantation
The Letter from Mohaun Los / Flight into Super-Time
The Light from Beyond
The Maze of Maal Dweb
The Monster of the Prophecy
The Planet of the Dead
The Plutonian Drug
The Return of the Sorcerer
The Second Interment
The Seven Geases
The Tale of Satampra Zeiros
The Testament of Athammaus
The Uncharted Isle
The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis
The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan
Ubbo-Sathla
Xeethra

POETRY
A Dream of Beauty
A Song of Dreams
Chant to Sirius
From the Crypts of Memory
Medusa
Nero
Outlanders
Retrospect and Forecast
Sadastor
The Eldritch Dark
The Shadows
The Song of a Comet
The Winds
To the Darkness

This includes at least four of the ten Averoigne stories. If Inpatient Press didn't obtain the permission of CAS's heirs (which, to the best of my knowledge, they have not), then they are in violation of the copyright.

Finally, Platypus, you've stated repeatedly (and rather forcefully so) that all of CAS's work is in the public domain, but you haven't offered us any proof. Why do you think that? Do you have any evidence or documentation to back up your claim? If so, please post it here. Thanks!

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 26 August, 2019 02:54PM
SirNolen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus, I’m afraid you're mistaken about the
> status of at least some CAS's copyrights, and are
> giving the Eldritch Dark community bad information
> that could potentially get someone in trouble if
> they believed you and tried to publish CAS's
> material without first obtaining the proper
> reprint licenses.

I said nothing about publishing books; only about purchasing them. All I am saying is that nobody owes it to Mr. Dorman to only purchase books that come with his approval. He has proven nothing to us readers, and we readers owe him nothing.

But yeah. Before you publish your own AVEROIGNE collection, hire a good copyright lawyer, and/or do good copyright research, rather than relying on what an anonymous person says on the internet. It might even be a good idea to get "permission" from Mr. Dorman, for the pragmatic reasons I already explained.

> CAS's material that was copyrighted with him as
> the claimant lasted for 28 years after
> publication.

Most would have expired, then, if not renewed.

> When he died in 1961, his wife Carol
> inherited his copyrights.

Only those that passed to her.

> Before they expired,
> however, she renewed the copyrights for an
> additional 28 years for at least three of his
> collections: "Nero and Other Poems", "Out of Space
> and Time", and "Lost Worlds".

None of which contained original material. So, in essence, the "collections" were renewed, as collections, but the stories and poems within them expired. Only the overall title and arrangement was copyrighted and renewed.

> The U.S. Copyright
> Act of 1976 retroactively extended that copyright
> renewal period to 47 years, ...

This had no effect on material that was not renewed. That which WAS renewed lasted long enough to be extended again by Sonny Bono in 1992.

> ... and the Sonny Bono
> Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 extended it
> for yet another 20 years, for a total of 67 years.

These copyright acts did not "retroactively" extend copyrights on material that had already entered public domain. Hence, the first Sonny Bono act of 1992 only reached back 28 years, to 1978. Material published before 1978, and not renewed, was not extended.

> • "Nero and Other Poems": published 1937,
> renewed 1964, expires in 2031

This is a selection of material from The Star-Treader and Other Poems, which was published in 1912 and never renewed. All public domain.

> • "Out of Space and Time": published in 1942,
> renewed in 1970, expires in 2037

All of the stories in this collection were previously published, years earlier. In 1970, it was already too late to renew them. Their 28-year copyright term had already expired. They were already public domain.

> • "Lost Worlds": published in 1944, renewed in
> 1972, expires in 2039

Ditto. No original material was in this collection. By the time 1972 rolled around each story was already over 28 years old, and had already entered public domain.

> While I can't say for sure about CAS's other
> material, the following stories and poems are
> absolutely, positively, 100% still legally under
> copyright, held by William Dorman:

LOL! Even if they were under copyright (which apparently they are not) that would not prove that Mr. Dorman holds the copyright. Who are you anyway? Someone shilling for Mr. Dorman?

> STORIES
> A Night in Malnéant
> A Rendezvous in Averoigne
> A Voyage to Sfanomoë
> Necromancy in Naat
> The Beast of Averoigne
> The Chain of Aforgomon
> The City of the Singing Flame
> The Coming of the White Worm
> The Dark Eidolon
> The Death of Ilalotha
> The Death of Malygris
> The Demon of the Flower
> The Door to Saturn
> The Double Shadow
> The Empire of the Necromancers
> The End of the Story
> The Flower-Women
> The Gorgon
> The Holiness of Azedarac
> The Hunters from Beyond
> The Isle of the Torturers
> The Last Hieroglyph
> The Last Incantation
> The Letter from Mohaun Los / Flight into
> Super-Time
> The Light from Beyond
> The Maze of Maal Dweb
> The Monster of the Prophecy
> The Planet of the Dead
> The Plutonian Drug
> The Return of the Sorcerer
> The Second Interment
> The Seven Geases
> The Tale of Satampra Zeiros
> The Testament of Athammaus
> The Uncharted Isle
> The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis
> The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan
> Ubbo-Sathla
> Xeethra
>
> POETRY
> A Dream of Beauty
> A Song of Dreams
> Chant to Sirius
> From the Crypts of Memory
> Medusa
> Nero
> Outlanders
> Retrospect and Forecast
> Sadastor
> The Eldritch Dark
> The Shadows
> The Song of a Comet
> The Winds
> To the Darkness

It seems to me that all you have done here is list the contents of the 3 volumes mentioned. But none of this material is protected by copyright for the reasons already explained.

> This includes at least four of the ten Averoigne
> stories. If Inpatient Press didn't obtain the
> permission of CAS's heirs (which, to the best of
> my knowledge, they have not), then they are in
> violation of the copyright.

Then CAS's heirs (whoever they are) should go sue them. In the meantime, just to help Inpatient Press stand up to frivolous lawsuits from lying bullies, I suggest we all buy our CAS material from Inpatient Press.

> Finally, Platypus, you've stated repeatedly (and
> rather forcefully so) that all of CAS's work is in
> the public domain, but you haven't offered us any
> proof.

Firstly, I said no such thing (and why the blatant lie?). Secondly, why should I have to prove anything? Let Mr. Dorman show us his copyright renewals, and other proofs. If all he has is what you've listed above, then he's got nothing.

> Why do you think that? Do you have any
> evidence or documentation to back up your claim?

I offer, as Exhibit A, a blatantly dishonest argument here being made by some shill for CASiana (you). From now on, I will not buy anything approved by CASiana, as a matter of principle. You've managed to annoy me by trying to pull the wool over my eyes on their behalf. Good work!



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 26 Aug 19 | 03:44PM by Platypus.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2019 11:28PM
I followed the links you provided, but they did not lead to a paperback version actually on sale for purchase. Amazon had one "proof copy" that was no longer available. I'll just keep checking back, I suppose. I'm especially interested in the second volume, collecting Averoigne stories by other authors. I don;t have any e-readers, so it has to be a real book for me!

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: casofile (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2019 12:44PM
Very provocative thread here; thought I'd add my opinion:

A RENDEZVOUS IN AVEROIGNE Arkham House 1988 Copyright by CASiana Literary Enterprises.
ZOTHIQUE,HYPERBOREA,XICCARPH,POSEIDONIS, Ballantine Books by permission of Mrs Clark Ashton Smith.
RED WORLD OF POLARIS, COLLECTED FANTASIES OF CLARK ASHTON SMITH VOLUMES 1-5, MISCELLANEOUS WRITINGS, Nightshade Press Copyright by the estate of Clark Ashton Smith.
THE DARK EIDOLON AND OTHER FANTASIES, Penguin Classics 2014 Copyright by CASiana Literary Enterprises.
TALES OF ZOTHIQUE, THE BOOK OF HYPERBOREA, THE UNEXPURGATED SERIES, Necronomicon Press by permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.
THE CITY OF THE SINGING FLAME, THE LAST INCANTATION, THE MONSTER OF THE PROPHECY, Timescape books, with permission of the Estate of Clark Ashton Smith.
THE AVEROIGNE CHRONICLES, IN THE REALMS OF MYSTERY AND WONDER, Centipede Press by permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.
THE AVEROINGE ARCHIVES, Pickman's Press, with the permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.

I could go on, but it's getting rather tedious; suffice to say that virtually every book by CAS published since his death is copyrighted by or has the permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises. Why Mr Platypus feels he knows better than all these publishers, their agents and lawyers (not to mention such notable scholars and editors as Donald Sidney-Fryer and S.T. Joshi) is beyond me, but of course he is welcome to his own opinion. And that's all his rhetoric amounts to, his opinion. I agree with Sir Nolen and that's why I wrote the intro for THE AVEROIGNE ARCHIVES, because he went through the proper channels and received the permission of Smith's estate.

Regarding Inpatient Press: Yes, they are pirates. They simply stole the online texts (and didn't even know enough to include all the Averoigne tales) and printed up a book in order to make money off someone else's property. If you check out their web page you will see they apparently specialize in pornography of a particularly raunchy kind . . . not the sort of publisher that deserves our support! I was actually the "shill" who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this book and he immediately hit them with a cease and desist order. I agree with those who love the idea of an Averoigne edition that matches up with the Ballantine Adult Fantasy books, and I also like their cover illustration, but this is irrelevant.

If Mr Platypus is sincere about not buying any books approved by CASiana then perhaps he should also get rid of all his books approved by CASiana as well and see what he has left . . . pulp magazines and Arkham editions containing heavily edited and typo-filled texts. Perhaps (if he is serious and not simply a hypocrite) he should also cease to use this Eldritch Dark site as it also exists by the permission of CASiana.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 9 September, 2019 04:08PM
casofile Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could go on, but it's getting rather tedious;

Damned tedious. Collections are always copyrighted, even if they contain no original material. Every time a publisher publishes a new collection of 19th-century and other public domain material, it says "Copyright 2019 by Ash Tree Press", or whatever. This is a desperate non-argument.

> suffice to say that virtually every book by CAS
> published since his death is copyrighted by or has
> the permission of CASiana Literary Enterprises.

Obviously, everyone does not do it, or we would not be having this discussion about whether those who don't do it are "pirates", guilty of "stealing" Mr. Dorman's intellectual property.

But yes, publishers do tend to do this, for the reasons I explained. It does not necessarily mean that anything is actually protected by a valid copyright.

> Why Mr Platypus feels he knows better ...

I've never cited myself as an authority for anything. Nor have I advised anyone to publish without permission of Mr. Dorman. I have not even so much as advised anyone to make an authorized photocopy in a library.

My position is that Mr. Dorman has proven nothing to us readers, and we readers owe him nothing. That's not how copyright works anyway. If you have valid copyright claim, you should get the courts involved and go after the publisher, and not go around harassing members of the public for buying the wrong book.

> ... than all
> these publishers, their agents and lawyers (not to
> mention such notable scholars and editors as
> Donald Sidney-Fryer and S.T. Joshi) is beyond me,
> but of course he is welcome to his own opinion.

And which of these people (besides you) have publicly accused Inpatient Press of copyright piracy?

And since when does a vested interest in bad-mouthing the competition and hyping one's own product give a person extra credibility? Mr. Joshi is not even a lawyer, last time I checked.

> And that's all his rhetoric amounts to, his
> opinion. I agree with Sir Nolen and that's why I
> wrote the intro for THE AVEROIGNE ARCHIVES,
> because he went through the proper channels and
> received the permission of Smith's estate.

And this makes you an expert on copyright law, somehow?

> Regarding Inpatient Press: Yes, they are pirates.
> They simply stole the online texts (and didn't
> even know enough to include all the Averoigne
> tales) and printed up a book in order to make
> money off someone else's property.

Well then. If this is really the case, then I humbly suggest that Mr. Dorman and his buddies cease this slimy smear campaign against his competition, and GO SUE THEM!!!!!

If Mr. Dorman could win in a court of law (which apparently he can't) you would have no need to conduct this slimy public smear campaign.

> If you check out their web page you will see they apparently specialize in
> pornography of a particularly raunchy kind . . .

Is this how you back up your charge of copyright piracy? By changing the subject and hurling more mud? Slimy, slimy, slimy.

> I was actually the "shill"
> who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this
> book and he immediately hit them with a cease and
> desist order.

I suspect you mean a "cease and desist letter"? What's he going to do when Inpatient Press calls his bluff? Never mind. It is not my problem. If Mr. Dorman has a case, then the law is his remedy. He can get an injunction, or seize any profits, or both. This is not something that I as a humble member of the public need worry about. He's got nothing on me. I did not copy anything.

Again, Mr. Dorman has proven nothing to me, and I owe him nothing.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 9 Sep 19 | 05:02PM by Platypus.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 9 September, 2019 07:51PM
casofile Wrote:
> Perhaps (if he is
> serious and not simply a hypocrite) he should also
> cease to use this Eldritch Dark site as it also
> exists by the permission of CASiana.

This is a very strange charge of "hypocrisy". Why would I have any grief with The Eldritch Dark? So far, they have not even censored my posts, which I am sure you would like them to do.

I don't know what the relationship is between CASiana and The Eldritch Dark. However, obviously, the Eldritch Dark has no power whatsoever to prevent CASiana from giving it all the permissions it pleases. It seems, however, that if CASiana has enough clout to force The Eldritch Dark to SAY it is using the texts only with CASiana's permission, it has so far failed to exercise that clout. Either that, or the disclaimer is hidden somewhere I cannot easily find.

If Mr. Dorman likes, then CASiana can also give permission to Inpatient Press. I'm sure they can't stop him either.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2019 09:38AM
I clicked around and did find this websites "Notes on Copyright". It is on the bottom of the page entitled "About the ED" created in 1998 and last updated 2013. It is rather uncommittal as to who owns the various copyrights. It does, however, acknowledge "permission" for non-profit use from CASiana and Arkham House (but without, for obvious reasons, expressing an opinion as which of these two entities owns which copyrights for which specific works, or versions of works).

There, this website encourages readers of the site to buy every "in print" copy of Clark Ashton Smith's work they can find.

Which is, IMHO, a fairly good strategy for ensuring that profits ultimately go to whoever (if anyone) actually owns the copyright. After all, it does not make sense to expect members of the general public to have an opinion as to who owns which copyright. If any piracy is done, the pirates can be sued and their profits seized, by anyone who is actually able to prove their claims in a court of law.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10 Sep 19 | 10:04AM by Platypus.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2019 06:24PM
casofile Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was actually the "shill"
> who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this
> book and he immediately hit them with a cease and
> desist order.

It is also perhaps worth mentioning, that the most likely result of this "cease and desist" letter, is the parties will end up negotiating permissions, which will duly appear on future printings. This makes sense to do, no matter how frivolous the copyright claim, for reasons already explained.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Fiendlover (IP Logged)
Date: 19 October, 2019 12:35AM
I can't speak for the first two books but the third one, "The Averoigne Legacy" is due out (ebook) by Halloween and the paperback will shortly follow. "The Averoigne Legacy" is a collection of poems and stories by contemporary authors revolving around Averoigne.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 21 October, 2019 11:16PM
Thank you for this information about "The Averoigne Legacy." I look forward to it! And now. Halloween is right around the3 corner...

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 22 October, 2019 11:28AM
casofile Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regarding Inpatient Press: Yes, they are pirates.
> They simply stole the online texts (and didn't
> even know enough to include all the Averoigne
> tales) and printed up a book in order to make
> money off someone else's property. If you check
> out their web page you will see they apparently
> specialize in pornography of a particularly
> raunchy kind . . . not the sort of publisher that
> deserves our support! I was actually the "shill"
> who alerted Mr. Dorman of the existence of this
> book and he immediately hit them with a cease and
> desist order. I agree with those who love the idea
> of an Averoigne edition that matches up with the
> Ballantine Adult Fantasy books, and I also like
> their cover illustration, but this is irrelevant.
>
>

I find this deeply regrettable. I strongly urge Inpatient Press to amend the texts, and add "The Satyr". Then I will buy the paperback, no matter what, for it is very nice in appearance, pirate or not. I don't think CAS would turn around in his grave if I bought it. Who hasn't pirated records in their collections? But if Inpatient Press did amend, I see no reason why the book should not be given permission by CASiana. And, of course, Will Murray, Steve Behrends, Scott Connors, and Ron Hilger, fairly should be given credit for their unexpurgating of the texts.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 22 October, 2019 07:25PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... I will buy the paperback, no matter
> what, ... pirate or
> not. .... Who hasn't pirated records
> in their collections? ...


If you really stretch it, even buying second hand and antique books is piracy. Because the original publisher and writer receives nothing from it. And the former owner gets back the money he paid, and in the end has read the book for free.

Living in the human shell is one long outdrawn immoral act of theft and atrocity. We buffet our way around, and even kidnap and eat other living beings. It is not a pretty sight when we think of it.

It can also be viewed in a different way: that none of it matters. It is ultimately not important. We all pull in in different directions. The artist/editor/publisher struggles to get a profit back from his efforts, which is perfectly fine. I the reader, on the other hand, want a nice book, but don't care a whole lot where it comes from, as long as it is a beauty. If I have a personal relationship to the artist/editor/publisher, then naturally I care more.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Dibarcas_Maior (IP Logged)
Date: 6 November, 2019 04:34PM
pretty good book imho



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 6 Nov 19 | 04:51PM by Dibarcas_Maior.



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