This gets us into subjective territory. But I'm wondering if folk here can point to stories, or parts of stories, that really did give them a bit of a creepy feeling. (I realize it would be nice to be more specific about the kind of reaction relevant to this thread.)

It seems to me that, though I have read a lot of weird fiction, I've only rarely felt much of a creepy feeling. I've felt what Lovecraft called "adventurous expectancy" more often. The "shudders" that anthologists and writers of copy for paperback books are so found of referring to I have known hardly at all -- notably in Lovecraft's stories, though I have the impression that an early, perhaps first, reading of "The Rats in the Walls" affected me this way a little.

A. M. Burrage's "One Who Saw" was, for me, I suppose creepier than anything by Lovecraft.

It seems to me that I was creeped out a bit by a passage in Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House -- and, interestingly, it's not one of the specifically "supernatural" bits. It's the spot when we learn that poor Eleanor sleeps on a cot in some forlorn space in (I think) her married sister's house.

Let's make a distinction between being "creeped out" and thinking some weird incident is cool -- because I think that the latter is actually more applicable to a lot of weird fiction. The conclusion of "The Haunter of the Dark" with the "three-eyed burning lobe" coming to get Blake, or whatever it is -- I think a kid might well say that that was cool rather than scary. "Cool" is what a kid might say in admiration of some big moment when a creature is revealed, or some dreadful demise overtakes some character, etc. I think when we feel "creeped out" we don't exactly feel that this is "cool." It's a bit more disturbing than that -- ? But "disturbing" is a vague and overused word, I suppose.

OK, first "the three-eyed burning lobe". This is actually "the three-lobed burning eye", I think, and it's a GREAT example of an odd language thing that Lovecraft uses: creating a reference to an unimaginable--or at least extremely anomalous--physical characteristic.

And because he uses this in a normal context--as an attempt at an actual description of some concrete phenomenon--it throws a curve at us; it's an actual attempt to describe the indescribable. It creates a paradoxical situation, which can be described as being in the presence of the uncanny.

I mean, can you imagine a three-lobed burning eye? The notion of lobes in relation to an eye is completely foreign--eyes by their functional nature requiring a relatively regular symmetrical shape. So one of the defining characteristics of an eye is regularity, and here we have three lobes? The burning maybe I can imagine (seen too much of Sauron's eye in films, huh? :^) )--but 3 lobes?

Here's the only other example that I can readily think of. From Call of Cthulu, Cthulu emerges from a dark doorway and he grabs several crewmen "in his flabby claws".

Flabby claws? Chtulu has flabby claws? The very nature of claws is that they are rigid and firm, but not Cthulu's. He's different!

He's *weird*!

OK, to your main point, Dale--and I apologize for the divergence.

The old man in The Pictures in the House, his actions, weirded me out. The actions of those following Nyarlathotep after they've joined the robotic mob, conscious, yet unable to do anything except follow some external impetus, weirded me out.

The Statement of Randolph Carter, both his friend's fevered descriptions as he descends into the darkened crypt, and the subsequence voice at the end, creeped me out.

By this I mean I got a minor chill at the back of my neck, and felt the uncanny. It was not *cool* by any stretch.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish, I remember that that business of "three-lobed burning eye" and "three-eyed burning lobe" came up in some critical comment somewhere (not here at ED). Obviously I didn't check my text!

Such fascinating topics lately, and a shame that so few people are around!

I admit that weird stories, including the ones that are hailed as horror, rarely creep me out as well. But there are some good examples which can still haunt me when I think back to them on a quiet night. One of them is Lovecraft's "The Nameless City", which is the first story by Lovecraft that ever unnerved me and made me reluctant to turn off the lights at night. Just the thought of being alone and surrounded by the inhuman dead in a distant, dark vault sends me running straight to a warm blanket.

"The Whisperer in Darkness" gave me strong chills, but only on the second reading, when I could better appreciate what it must be like to be stalked by winged, faceless entities in the night.

"The Doom That Came to Sarnath" also disturbed me in an insidiously lingering way. Though perhaps "creepy" isn't the right term for it. More like the whole story took me out of my body, time, and place, with its setting of an unimaginably distant era, and its passage of centuries upon centuries of time, and its primordial beings of eerie and dream-like enchantment, and the sorrowful fall of not one but two civilizations.

Those are the only Lovecraft stories which got me in that way, but as it's been so many years I'll definitely give "The Pictures in the House" another try. "One Who Saw" sounds very promising.

Smith's best stories generally fall under the categories of beautiful and cool, but he came close to unnerving me with the descriptions of dark halls, inescapable palaces, and predatory hosts in "A Rendezvous in Averoigne" and "The Black Abbot of Puthuum."

M. R. James occasionally got me with his rather visceral descriptions of supernatural encounters, especially in "The Stalls of Barchester Cathedral" with its eerie whispers and phantom fur.

This might be the most unexpected answer, but I was always chilled by Dunsany's "The House of the Sphinx." The discrepancy between the mysteriously silent sphinx and the maddening laughter of the unseen entity outside the door really took me out of myself, especially with the brilliant build-up of anxiety and mystery by the nervous men and the ignorant narrator.

I've just begun reading Charles Williams' "The Place of the Lion", and while it's not at all a horror story, its accounts of the unreal-yet-too-real Archetypes, haunting the countryside like unpredictable miracles, are both beautiful and unsettling.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11 Dec 19 | 11:08PM by kojootti.

Thanks for your contribution, kojootti! I'm going to give the stories you named a try!

Thanks for adding to my reading list!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interleaved, below:


kojootti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Such fascinating topics lately, and a shame that
> so few people are around!
>
> I admit that weird stories, including the ones
> that are hailed as horror, rarely creep me out as
> well. But there are some good examples which can
> still haunt me when I think back to them on a
> quiet night. One of them is Lovecraft's "The
> Nameless City", which is the first story by
> Lovecraft that ever unnerved me and made me
> reluctant to turn off the lights at night. Just
> the thought of being alone and surrounded by the
> inhuman dead in a distant, dark vault sends me
> running straight to a warm blanket.
>
> "The Whisperer in Darkness" gave me strong chills,
> but only on the second reading, when I could
> better appreciate what it must be like to be
> stalked by winged, faceless entities in the
> night.
>
> "The Doom That Came to Sarnath" also disturbed me
> in an insidiously lingering way. Though perhaps
> "creepy" isn't the right term for it. More like
> the whole story took me out of my body, time, and
> place, with its setting of an unimaginably distant
> era, and its passage of centuries upon centuries
> of time, and its primordial beings of eerie and
> dream-like enchantment, and the sorrowful fall of
> not one but two civilizations.
>
> Those are the only Lovecraft stories which got me
> in that way, but as it's been so many years I'll
> definitely give "The Pictures in the House"
> another try. "One Who Saw" sounds very promising.
>
> Smith's best stories generally fall under the
> categories of beautiful and cool,

FWIW, I'm really enjoying this discussion.

Some of Dale's posts made me think about the role of characterization of the main character--whether they have heroic qualities, or even qualities that cause the reader to identify with the character. And we discussed this as it relates to creating tragedy.

ON thinking more about it, I'd say that Smith seldom creates a character with whom could--or would want to--identify with. This is not because they are inadequately developed (some may be, but usually the are not cardboard cut-outs or stereotypes), but more because they seem to function as a narrative POV.

For example, in The Double Shadow, the 1st person narrator is penning his final message to the rest of the world. He's somewhat typically the acolyte one encounter (think Disney's "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", but without the playfulness) and while he's fairly open with us, he tells us mostly about the source of his on-coming and inescapable doom.

And most importantly, it is the *concept* of what that doom is, and the nature of it's potency that makes the story worthwhile, and not any empathy for the narrator, or anyone else in the story, in my opinion.

Thinking briefly about this, I find that in Smith's best works it is the fantastic concept, combined with very strong tradition themes, that drive the stories somewhat independently of the min character, who serves the purpose of providing a narrative point of view--a sort of camera in the room--so that we can "see" the action.

In a sense, it's like taking "Sophie's Choice" and removing Sophie--just telling us about the awful predicament without trying to get us to "feel" for Sophie. In this sense, CAS's stuff is more removed, more objective--too much so to be a fertile field for the growing of tragedy potatoes.


> but he came
> close to unnerving me with the descriptions of
> dark halls, inescapable palaces, and predatory
> hosts in "A Rendezvous in Averoigne" and "The
> Black Abbot of Puthuum."

Hah! The "Black Abbott" was a sort of Grey Mouser and Fahfred story. The lust of the abbott was certainly memorable!

>
> M. R. James occasionally got me with his rather
> visceral descriptions of supernatural encounters,
> especially in "The Stalls of Barchester Cathedral"
> with its eerie whispers and phantom fur.
>
> This might be the most unexpected answer, but I
> was always chilled by Dunsany's "The House of the
> Sphinx." The discrepancy between the mysteriously
> silent sphinx and the maddening laughter of the
> unseen entity outside the door really took me out
> of myself, especially with the brilliant build-up
> of anxiety and mystery by the nervous men and the
> ignorant narrator.
>
> I've just begun reading Charles Williams' "The
> Place of the Lion", and while it's not at all a
> horror story, its accounts of the
> unreal-yet-too-real Archetypes, haunting the
> countryside like unpredictable miracles, are both
> beautiful and unsettling.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kojooti, I relished your comments about how various stories came across to you, and I will have to look up that Dunsany story -- I read a lot by the man back in the day, but I don't seem to remember that one!

Delighted to read that you're reading the Williams. There's a little horror element eventually, but mostly it's just as you say.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The old man in The Pictures in the House, his
> actions, weirded me out.

I don't suppose I felt this way when I first read the story, but nowadays that story seems funny in a sort of black humor way to me -- the crazy old coot leering and cackling -- especially when he says (I quote from memory) "'ef 'twas more the same'" -- !! It's like some over-the-top old radio play, to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12 Dec 19 | 09:36AM by Dale Nelson.

Sawfish wrote, "And most importantly, it is the *concept* of what that doom is, and the nature of it's potency that makes the story worthwhile, and not any empathy for the narrator, or anyone else in the story, in my opinion.

"Thinking briefly about this, I find that in Smith's best works it is the fantastic concept, combined with very strong tradition themes, that drive the stories somewhat independently of the min character, who serves the purpose of providing a narrative point of view--a sort of camera in the room--so that we can "see" the action."

This is like many works of science fiction, where the main thing is a concept, perhaps a "very cool" concept, and one could argue that working up a sense of depth in the character(s) might be beside the point.

Many of the world's favorite stories hardly depend on novelistic, three-dimensional characters for their interest. What comes to mind offhand is many folktales, e.g. the Norwegian one in which (something like this) a woman enters a church on New Year's Eve, and it is thronged with shadowy forms looking towards the chancel. She accidentally makes a sound and they turn around and get up, and she runs for her life! Well, we hardly require novelistic detail about her. Or take myths. Who would say that a telling of the myth of Orpheus requires a novelistic rendering of Orpheus or Eurydice?

So, while I would need to read (again) some of those Smith stories, I would approach them prepared to entertain the possibility that, if they lacked novelistic characterization, this was not necessarily a fault. It depends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12 Dec 19 | 09:37AM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The old man in The Pictures in the House, his
> > actions, weirded me out.
>
> I don't suppose I felt this way when I first read
> the story, but nowadays that story seems funny in
> a sort of black humor way to me -- the crazy old
> coot leering and cackling -- especially when he
> says (I quote from memory) "'ef 'twas more the
> same'" -- !! It's like some over-the-top old
> radio play, to me.

Hah! There was definitely some of that, too!

"Here now. Set down. What ails ye?"

The general filth and decrepitude, plus that implied fact that the old man was far to old to be alive, and yet had certain robust indications along with his advanced age, seemed creepy, uncanny. The old boy's attachment to the book with the picture was near pornographic obsession, it seemed to me.

Here's a time capsule for you:

We visited some relatives back before I was no older than 6 (my brother is 6 years younger, and this was before he was born, so,,,). The relatives had no TV, only an old console radio (this could not have been any later than mid-year 1953) and I listened to a radio-play of "The Graveyard Rats".

Scared me yet but good...

OK for Pictures in the House; it did not work for you as a creepy tale. How about in Nyarlathotep:

When we gazed around the horizon, we could not find the third tower by the river, and noticed that the silhouette of the second tower was ragged at the top. Then we split up into narrow columns, each of which seemed drawn in a different direction. One disappeared in a narrow alley to the left, leaving only the echo of a shocking moan.

Did the entire narrative kinda creep you out? It sure did (and does) me...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's always a pleasure having a calm but enthusiastic discussion. :) Most places aimed at people my age tend to be vapid and boring, and full of those who are obsessed with this or that interest without actually being passionate or thoughtful.

Regarding characterization, I think it's true that Smith largely focuses on wild, imaginative phenomena, but he also explores the emotional impact of such things, and makes his characters just engaging enough to -want- to follow into these feelings. "A Voyage to Sfanamoë" is one of my favorite Smith stories of all time, not only for its amazing visions but also for its rich and empathetic view of its characters. The two brothers aren't immensely fleshed out, being perhaps just above the category of fairy-tale protagonists, but their plight, their glory, and their varied emotions are clearly there for me to connect with, which is what adds an engaging layer to the phantasmic phenomena. I could say the same for such stories as "The Planet of the Dead" and "The Last Hieroglyph", among many others. Even "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros", while not exactly "caring" of its protagonists' safety, still makes them memorable and slightly funny characters (compared to generic thieves), whose fates are treated with a strange mixture of sardonic understanding.

To sum it all up, I think Smith, at his best (he's written less engaging things too), offers subtle opportunities to connect with his characters in one way or another, whether it's sharing in their wonder, sharing in their yearning, feeling moved in some way by their demise, or understanding their motivations and desires even when they are dark or foolish. I've read that Smith admired William Beckford, whose small body of fiction is comprised entirely of humans whose journeys and aspirations are soulfully grand, and whose tragedy is in their hubris, greed, and unrestrained passion, dragging them down bitterly, mournfully, sardonically, and ecstatically to the Palace of Subterranean Fire. I can see some of that same influence, as if granted by a similar yet darker Jinn (perhaps by Omoultakos?), in Smith's stories.

In regard to "Nyarlathotep", I can absolutely see how the story would unsettle people. And on top of that, it's not really usual for Lovecraft's fiction, feeling more like an anxiety-evoking dream rather than a narrative in a world we understand. Perhaps I'll have to re-read that along with "Pictures."

In regard to Dunsany, here's a link to that story for you!
The House of the Sphinx

And finally, in regard to Charles Williams, I've read "Et in Sempiternum Pereant" and am now a third of the way through "The Place of the Lion." So far I'm glad to have learned about this author, and I'm impressed by his vivid descriptions of otherworldly powers! I'm no Christian, but I still admire the mystical yearning and overwhelming forces of these tales. I was also glad that "The Place of the Lion" was all about Archetypes, because for many years I wondered about Smith's own Archetypes, from his Cavern of Archetypes, a subterranean world full of nebulous, semi-material plants and animals that are the primordial ancestors of all earthly life, which play only a small role in his "Seven Geases." I always wanted to write a story inspired by the spirits of archetypes, so it was nice to find the Williams story. Such a shame Smith never wrote a whole tale about his own Archetypes, though I suppose he explores them in another way in "The Last Hieroglyph."



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12 Dec 19 | 02:06PM by kojootti.

Interleaved:

(BTW, I agree with your expressed enjoyment and appreciation of a rational and courteous discussion.

I believe that this trait, along with a lack of fear of vacuum cleaners, is what separates us from the animals...

;^) (Credit to Jerry Seinfeld e the animals...) )


kojootti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's always a pleasure having a calm but
> enthusiastic discussion. :) Most places aimed at
> people my age tend to be vapid and boring, and
> full of those who are obsessed with this or that
> interest without actually being passionate or
> thoughtful.
>
> Regarding characterization, I think it's true that
> Smith largely focuses on wild, imaginative
> phenomena, but he also explores the emotional
> impact of such things, and makes his characters
> just engaging enough to -want- to follow into
> these feelings. "A Voyage to Sfanamoë" is one of
> my favorite Smith stories of all time, not only
> for its amazing visions but also for its rich and
> empathetic view of its characters. The two
> brothers aren't immensely fleshed out, being
> perhaps just above the category of fairy-tale
> protagonists, but their plight, their glory, and
> their varied emotions are clearly there for me to
> connect with, which is what adds an engaging layer
> to the phantasmic phenomena.

It's a great transcendent story with such an odd irony (they become plants, fer god's sake, and innocently, joyfully so!)


> I could say the same
> for such stories as "The Planet of the Dead" and
> "The Last Hieroglyph", among many others.

Can't recall P of the D, but the last hieroglyph, too, ends in a sort of warm satisfaction, if not in any traditional sense. The mediocre (at best) astrologer, and his dog and servant (!) become one with the running history of the cosmos. Sucked up onto the page, as calligraphy.


> Even
> "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros", while not exactly
> "caring" of its protagonists' safety, still makes
> them memorable and slightly funny characters
> (compared to generic thieves), whose fates are
> treated with a strange mixture of sardonic
> understanding.

This is the visit to Commoriom to loot it, and what happens in that big basin in the temple, right?

>
> To sum it all up, I think Smith, at his best (he's
> written less engaging things too), offers subtle
> opportunities to connect with his characters in
> one way or another, whether it's sharing in their
> wonder, sharing in their yearning, feeling moved
> in some way by their demise, or understanding
> their motivations and desires even when they are
> dark or foolish.

Smith and Leiber are the two most likely to season their works with a sort of wry humor, in my opinion.

> I've read that Smith admired
> William Beckford, whose small body of fiction is
> comprised entirely of humans whose journeys and
> aspirations are soulfully grand, and whose tragedy
> is in their hubris, greed, and unrestrained
> passion, dragging them down bitterly, mournfully,
> sardonically, and ecstatically to the Palace of
> Subterranean Fire. I can see some of that same
> influence, as if granted by a similar yet darker
> Jinn (perhaps by Omoultakos?),

Can't recall this reference... :^(

> in Smith's
> stories.
>
> In regard to "Nyarlathotep", I can absolutely see
> how the story would unsettle people. And on top of
> that, it's not really usual for Lovecraft's
> fiction, feeling more like an anxiety-evoking
> dream rather than a narrative in a world we
> understand. Perhaps I'll have to re-read that
> along with "Pictures."
>
> In regard to Dunsany, here's a link to that story
> for you!
> The House of the Sphinx

Thanks!!!

>
> And finally, in regard to Charles Williams, I've
> read "Et in Sempiternum Pereant" and am now a
> third of the way through "The Place of the Lion."
> So far I'm glad to have learned about this author,
> and I'm impressed by his vivid descriptions of
> otherworldly powers! I'm no Christian, but I still
> admire the mystical yearning and overwhelming
> forces of these tales. I was also glad that "The
> Place of the Lion" was all about Archetypes,
> because for many years I wondered about Smith's
> own Archetypes, from his Cavern of Archetypes, a
> subterranean world full of nebulous, semi-material
> plants and animals that are the primordial
> ancestors of all earthly life, which play only a
> small role in his "Seven Geases."

While the story is over-long and repetitive, I still *REALLY* liked it!

There was humor in it, as well, with the arrogant and macho lord, who was put under the geas originally, being viewed as basically worthless in the netherworld beneath the volcano.

> I always wanted
> to write a story inspired by the spirits of
> archetypes, so it was nice to find the Williams
> story. Such a shame Smith never wrote a whole tale
> about his own Archetypes, though I suppose he
> explores them in another way in "The Last
> Hieroglyph."

Great discussion! Thanks!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kojootti Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I've read that Smith admired
> > William Beckford, whose small body of fiction
> is
> > comprised entirely of humans whose journeys and
> > aspirations are soulfully grand, and whose
> tragedy
> > is in their hubris, greed, and unrestrained
> > passion, dragging them down bitterly,
> mournfully,
> > sardonically, and ecstatically to the Palace of
> > Subterranean Fire. I can see some of that same
> > influence, as if granted by a similar yet
> darker
> > Jinn (perhaps by Omoultakos?),
>
> Can't recall this reference... :^(

Oh it's not much to care about. Omoultakos is a mysterious jinn which William Beckford mentioned in his unfinished Third Episode of Vathek. CAS took the liberty of finishing the story himself, receiving the fun and honor of describing Omoultakos, one of Smith's strangest monsters ever.

I should add here for the sake of the topic that William Hope Hodgson successfully made me feel the paranoia, dread, and hopelessness his characters must have felt in "The Ghost Pirates" and "The House on the Borderland."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17 Dec 19 | 09:26PM by kojootti.

Well … I am not sure I would say I have been creeped out by a work of horror but certainly there is a lot of very impressive moments in weird fiction that have stuck in my mind somehow and that (almost) send a shiver down my spine sometimes when I think about them.

In “The Dark Chamber“ (1927) by Leonard Cline there is a prety creepy passage in which one of the characters dreams a strange dream about being amongst hideously monstrous snakes swimming in a tropic lagoon. Then he comes to a horrible conclusion it was no dream but an inherent reminiscence of one of his animal primordial reptilian ancestors.

Also the advent of the Recluse in “The Arena“ where he sees the old gods and other unspeakable horrors is great. (The House on The Borderland by W.H.Hodgson).

And I cannot but mention the moment when the two characters in “At The Mountains of Madness“ by H.P.Lovecraft see for the first time the long-abandoned alien city from their plane. Very nice.

Most people shouldn’t tackle Descent into Hell as their first novel him. But those who’d like to try an exception literary horror story should consider it. The gradual emergence of his erotic obsession (there is no pornography in this novel) and the corruption of the esteemable scholar Wentworth (!) are memorable.