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Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 11 February, 2020 10:05AM
“Perhaps the ideal reader is an adolescent: restless, vulnerable, passionate, hungry to learn, skeptical and naïve by turns, believing in the power of the imagination to change, if not life itself, one’s comprehension of life. The degree to which we remain adolescents is the degree to which we remain ideal readers, for whom the act of opening a book can be a sacred one, fraught with psychic risk.” Joyce Carol Oates, “The One Unforgivable Sin,” New York Review of Books 25 July 1993, p. 3.

I found that quotation jotted down in one of my old notebooks. It reminded me of the old quip about the Golden Age of Science Fiction being 12 (or 13 or 14?).

Would people here like to discuss it? Here are just some questions that might be suggested. But I hope everyone will read and ponder the quotation.

Is J. C. Oates right?
Does that jibe with your personal experience?
Are any/some/most/all of your favorite authors ones whom you first read as an adolescent? If so, do you think your estimate of their achievement is biased by your memories of what they once meant to you?
Have you lost that adolescent passion, or have you grown as a reader while retaining those "adolescent" qualities as a reader?
Does that jibe with your knowledge of authors of interest to you?
Have you had any teachers or other people in your life who seemed to show that quality?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 Feb 20 | 10:07AM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 07:50PM
Hi, Dale.

I will respond *very* briefly, point-by-point, and will hope for more responses. I will still revisit this in detail because it's a very interesting topic.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “Perhaps the ideal reader is an adolescent:
> restless, vulnerable, passionate, hungry to learn,
> skeptical and naïve by turns, believing in the
> power of the imagination to change, if not life
> itself, one’s comprehension of life. The degree
> to which we remain adolescents is the degree to
> which we remain ideal readers, for whom the act of
> opening a book can be a sacred one, fraught with
> psychic risk.” Joyce Carol Oates, “The One
> Unforgivable Sin,” New York Review of Books 25
> July 1993, p. 3.
>
> I found that quotation jotted down in one of my
> old notebooks. It reminded me of the old quip
> about the Golden Age of Science Fiction being 12
> (or 13 or 14?).
>
> Would people here like to discuss it? Here are
> just some questions that might be suggested. But
> I hope everyone will read and ponder the
> quotation.
>
> Is J. C. Oates right?

With significant qualifications she might be.

Her verbiage makes it far too spiritual and mystical, in my opinion. I would emphasize that simply put, it is a transition from fairy tales to adolescent, or eventually, adult fantasies.

For me, fantasy is merely a place to go where I don't have to work too hard, and am constantly (hopefully) surprised--but strictly within its own frame of refereence. In short, it must makes sense by its own rules.

E.g. I am reading Merritt's The Metal Monster. It's a mixed bag, isn't it? Something like Burroughs (Edgar Rice, not William...;^) ), but in some minute quality I find some of it quite compelling, while closely juxaposed with stuff that's just plain silly.

So far far worth the effort. But be sure to understand that as a retired person, I'm a lot more forgiving.

Quickly OT, I tried to read Descent into Hell, but could not engage. I ***believe*** that the concept might well have been very interesting, but the combination of the characters, setting, and pace was too much to wade through.

But bear in mind I've always had troubles with Henry James...

> Does that jibe with your personal experience?

Yes.

> Are any/some/most/all of your favorite authors
> ones whom you first read as an adolescent?

No.

> If so,
> do you think your estimate of their achievement is
> biased by your memories of what they once meant to
> you?

n/a

> Have you lost that adolescent passion, or have you
> grown as a reader while retaining those
> "adolescent" qualities as a reader?

Yes, I think the latter.

> Does that jibe with your knowledge of authors of
> interest to you?

Not entirely sure about what this means/implies.

> Have you had any teachers or other people in your
> life who seemed to show that quality?

Not really.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 08:11PM
Nelson asked: > Does that jibe with your knowledge of authors of
> interest to you?

Sawfish replied: Not entirely sure about what this means/implies.

Nelson comments: I'm not either. I apologize for so badly worded a question that I can't figure it out, one day after I posted it.

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 08:29PM
Sawfish, would you say more about this statement?

"....fantasy is merely a place to go where I ... am constantly (hopefully) surprised--but strictly within its own frame of reference."

I wondered about the being-surprised.

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 08:33PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nelson asked: > Does that jibe with your knowledge
> of authors of
> > interest to you?
>
> Sawfish replied: Not entirely sure about what this
> means/implies.
>
> Nelson comments: I'm not either. I apologize for
> so badly worded a question that I can't figure it
> out, one day after I posted it.


Hah! Too funny, Dale!

No problems!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 08:39PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish, would you say more about this statement?
>
> "....fantasy is merely a place to go where I ...
> am constantly (hopefully) surprised--but strictly
> within its own frame of reference."
>
> I wondered about the being-surprised.


I was too vague.

I hope for new experiences, be shown new "things" in new settings. They need to be plausible/believable within their own contexts.

I'm much less a fan of the "new concepts" that may be introduced in science fiction. To me, Heinlein was always trying to pass off some new age sort of concept or practice, and these are not to my liking.

But then I'm pretty much a traditionalist by nature, so maybe that's it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 08:56PM
Okay, thanks, Sawfish, then naturally my next question is -- what are some examples you could cite?

"I hope for new experiences, be shown new 'things' in new settings. They need to be plausible/believable within their own contexts."

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 09:12PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay, thanks, Sawfish, then naturally my next
> question is -- what are some examples you could
> cite?

I was afraid of that...

I *liked* the universe of The Worm Ourboros.

I like the concept of Zothique and Hyperborea.

Middle Earth is not bad.

Lovecraft's conception of much oder cycles of life on earth (and elsewhere) are new (to me) and intriguing.

The model that Malygris (sp?) had of the solar system he controlled was memorable.

Things like that.

How about you?


>
> "I hope for new experiences, be shown new 'things'
> in new settings. They need to be
> plausible/believable within their own contexts."

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 08:19AM
Sawfish, I too have been intrigued by Lovecraft's evocation of a strange, unsuspected past of this earth; and the irruption of the past into the present is a theme of several works that impress me. In Lovecraft, it's a key element of those late works At the Mountains of Madness and, especially, "The Shadow Out of Time." It's there in Tolkien's fascinating Notion Club Papers, where, if anywhere, there could, conceivably, be a Lovecraftian influence on Tolkien. Though I doubt that "influence" occurred, it is not preposterous to imagine C. S. Lewis -- who was, I believe, a reader of Astounding around the time those two Lovecraft stories were published there -- telling his friend Tolkien that the magazine contained some work much better than the run of the mill and passing those issues on to Tolkien, and then Tolkien being influenced. The irruption-into-the-present theme returns in various forms in Alan Garner's novels, with The Owl Service being my favorite example.

I got around to reading William Morris's The Water of the Wondrous Isles for the first time a few years ago, and then reread it more recently. That one comes to mind in connection with your comments on fantasy worlds. I'm overdue for a rereading of The Well at the World's End. Where Dunsany was a favorite of my adolescence, I now find his characteristic dream-world fantasies get little traction in my mind, Morris seems to appeal to me more than then. To my regret, I haven't got on with Kenneth Morris's Book of the Three Dragons in a couple of relatively recent attempts at rereading, as compared with my first reading over 40 years ago.

The weird world of the Seven Dimensions in MacDonald's Lilith is outstanding. That book has had seven readings so far (the final version). I relish the way it begins as a haunted house story and becomes something very strange indeed.

The world of death in Charles Williams's All Hallows' Eve is eerie, at first kind of like something from a first-rate Twilight Zone teleplay.

Must mention Prospero's island in The Tempest -- "'full of voices'"! Sir Thomas Malory's Logres. I enjoyed wandering on the Arthurian world of The High History of the Holy Graal some months ago. We read in passing of Perceval seeing a burning castle: that is where King Pelles’ son Joseus killed his own mother, and it is one of two burning castles that will kindle the fire that will burn up the world at last. ...But Malory is much better. The Arthurian world of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in Brian Stone's translation. Gulliver's landfalls. The weird world of "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" and Coleridge's "Christabel." The dark wood of Milton's Comus masque. I've spent many good hours with Spenser's Faerie-land.

The Earthsea of Le Guin's first three books.

The Green Kingdom of Rachel Maddux's too-little-known novel.

Certain places in late works by Arthur Machen, such as "N."

The dismal ruined world of Charn in C. S. Lewis's The Magician's Nephew, the realm between the worlds, and Narnia. Ayesha's Kor in Haggard's novel -- which seems to have been in Lewis's mind when he wrote the Narnian chronicle just named! Glome and its environs in Lewis's Till We Have Faces are well-realized.

Tolkien's Middle-earth.

I won't roll out a bunch of remarks on real-world places that appeal to my imagination other than to mention Murray's Copsford, which you can read about here:

[wormwoodiana.blogspot.com]

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 01:48PM
This is great stuff, Dale!

It'll serve as a list for me to work thru.

I just completed The Owl Service about 6 months ago. When I started it (got it from Project Gutenberg) I worked against the unfortunate, but persistent and comic, mental image that it might be about a military force composed of owls.

Of course this probably lessened the impact...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 04:23PM
Sawfish, did the version of Garner's novel that you read have the design of the "owl service" -- the plates? It's remarkable. The design does work as flowers or as owls.

Re: Ideal Reader an Adolescent (Joyce Carol Oates quotation)
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 05:37PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish, did the version of Garner's novel that
> you read have the design of the "owl service" --
> the plates? It's remarkable. The design does
> work as flowers or as owls.


Yes, it does. It's certainly interesting-looking, and I'm glad the file has it because so much of the story depends on its appearance.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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