Hello.

Can anybody recommend a good cosmic horror story which was not written by the mainstream authors like Lovecraft, Smith or Howard?

Something horrible saturated with humor, "Meet Miss Universe" by Jack Vance. I think CAS might have enjoyed this one, and I would have loved to see his reaction; I may be totally wrong of course.

Edit: On second thought, if you are dedicated smoker you will probably not find this story funny. CAS was a smoker. I was also a smoker, but struggled to stop, so I appreciated the humor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30 Apr 20 | 03:53PM by Knygatin.

Do you know Robert H. Barlow? He isn't exactly mainstream, since even Lovecraft fans aren't usually aware of his work.

His stories tend to fall into one of two categories: weird fabulous fantasies inspired by Smith and Dunsany, or atmospheric pieces about people in a moody, post-apocalyptic world. But he wrote at least three stories which can be considered cosmic horror, though I think his emphasis is more on the cosmic side of things rather than horror, with the exception of one story. I'd say his three cosmic masterpieces are "The Night Ocean", "A Dim-Remembered Story", and "Origin Undetermined."

Most people don't realize that Lovecraft's contribution to "The Night Ocean" was very minimal, he merely edited a few parts of it to smooth out the words.

"Fat Face" and "Polyphemus" by Michael Shea.

Dark Gods and The Ceremonies by T. E. D. Klein.

Cold Print by Ramsey Campbell.

"Nethescurial" and "The Mystics of Muelenburg", etc., by Thomas Ligotti.

The Metal Monster by A. Merritt. The unexpurgated version found serialized in Argosy All-Story Weekly, and in full by Hippocampus Press.

And, by the gods, don't forget Lovecraft's collaborations "The Mound", "Out of the Aeons", and "The Diary of Alonzo Typer".

I don't know if I've ever come across a definition of the term "Cosmic Horror", but judging from the stories above (the ones I'm familiar with, at least)--a "Cosmic Horror" story is one in which some vastly powerful and inimical force in this universe comes in contact with humanity (or some portion of it). This force is largely beyond our comprehension, and there is no possibility of defeating or destroying it. The most we can hope for is a stay of execution. If my definition is correct, then I would nominate William Hope Hodgson's The House on the Borderland as being an early example. Does anyone know of any earlier ones?

I was thinking about Ligotti, his writing has been described as a natural step further in development from Lovecraft's cosmic horror. I wonder if Ligotti's stories may better be described as "existential horror"?

Someone on a different forum once contended that Bram Stoker's Dracula is cosmic horror. ???

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if
> Ligotti's stories may better be described as
> "existential horror"?

Over at the Ligotti forum several individuals seem to take his stories literally (somewhat like Lovecraft readers believing the Necronomicon to be a real book), nurturing a very pessimistic and self-effacing outlook.

kojootti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd say his three cosmic masterpieces are
> "The Night Ocean", "A Dim-Remembered Story", and
> "Origin Undetermined."
>

I read "The Night Ocean" when younger, thought it alright and rather well written, but not very distinct and it left only a vague impression. I don't remember it today. Was there some connection to Lovecraft's sea gods? What are its particular literary qualities?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read "The Night Ocean" when younger, thought it
> alright and rather well written, but not very
> distinct and it left only a vague impression. I
> don't remember it today. Was there some connection
> to Lovecraft's sea gods? What are its particular
> literary qualities?


It's been at least five years since my last reading, so I can't think of so many specifics myself. What I can say is it was less of a story and more of a man's imaginative musings about the cosmos as he lives in isolation on a secluded shore where he sees strange fish-like entities emerging from the sea. It would be easy to forget, even for an admirer like me, but I recall it sharing some beautiful and immersive impressions.

I personally prefer Barlow's "A Dim-Remembered Story", which might appeal more to most people because it involves wandering through a few places in time and space to the end of the world and beyond. Nothing hugely dramatic, mind you, just subtly eerie and growing throughout.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2 May 20 | 09:46AM by kojootti.

Thank you kojootti. Sounds good. I will reread "The Night Ocean" when my book-pile allow me to get around to finally read/reread some of the other stories in The Horror in the Museum and other Revisions.

Ken K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know if I've ever come across a definition
> of the term "Cosmic Horror", but judging from the
> stories above (the ones I'm familiar with, at
> least)--a "Cosmic Horror" story is one in which
> some vastly powerful and inimical force in this
> universe comes in contact with humanity (or some
> portion of it). This force is largely beyond our
> comprehension, and there is no possibility of
> defeating or destroying it. The most we can hope
> for is a stay of execution.

I would put it more simply. Cosmic horror is merely a horror tale in which vastnesses of space and/or time are used within the context of the story to enhance a sense of (horrific) awe. I see no need to overload the term with too much pessimistic philosophy.

> If my definition is
> correct, then I would nominate William Hope
> Hodgson's The House on the Borderland as being an
> early example.

And perhaps THE NIGHT LAND as well, but I'm not sure either would fit your definition. In THE HOUSE ON THE BORDERLAND, the Recluse perhaps could have saved himself by leaving the House, as he was warned to do by the ghost of his lost love. Also, the visions of the Recluse are suggestive of the possibility of salvation, as well as of damnation.

But I think both would fit the definition I proposed.

> Does anyone know of any earlier
> ones?

THE TIME MACHINE, by H.G. Wells. PARADISE LOST, by John Milton.

"The Red Brain", by Donald Wandrei.

Yes, I think that I prefer your definition to mine--it's more inclusive (and more succinct, to boot!)

You raise good points about the relative optimism/pessimism of Hodgson's novels. The theme of ultimate entropy seems to pervade both works (and certainly The Time Machine, as well) This may be one reason these novels are still being read over a century later--modern readers continue to find this scientific concept frightening. I know I do!

I would be curious to read "The Tower of Moab" by C. L. Lewis, or even his whole Tales of the Grotesque collection. Is this one essential for horror and supernatural connoisseurs?

Knygatin Wrote:
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> C. L. Lewis ...

I meant L. A. Lewis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 May 20 | 04:20AM by Knygatin.

L. A. Lewis reminds me of John Metcalf in that he is virtually forgotten and his stories are very bizzare, true weird tales. The best of them is probably "Animate in Death", a story about a partly decomposed, living corpse, suspended in some strange green fluid medium in another dimension and eaten alive by hideous water snakes. The tales bring nothing new to the table, so to speak, one can find popular motives that appeared in various fiction magazines of the era like "Weird Tales" or "Amazing Tales" (a horrible hybrid offspring; an aeroplane that can think and take revenge; a strange model of a castle which is connected with the real edifice standing god knows where; an object that convicts the culprit of murder in a mysterious way etc.) but, all in all, they are entertaining, I enjoyed most of them. "The Tower of Moab" is about a gentleman who sees or thinks he sees a monstrous tower rearing in London that grows up, night after night, to the heaven and that no else seems to see. He begins to investigate the phenomenon and the consequences are not pleasant for him. It is not a bad story but it gradually loses the quality of the opening parts which are very promising.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 May 20 | 09:52AM by Minicthulhu.

Thanks Minicthulhu, L. A. Lewis sounds fairly interesting. I read a few introductory lines from "Animate in Death", and thought they were quite powerful. Such as, "The emaciated sodden legs beat a ceaseless march on the unresisting veil, like those of a gallows victim marking time in air.".

How about "The Seeds of Death" by David H. Keller?

I have read some stories by Keller, but not this one. So one of these days I am going to read it because the title itself sounds inviting. :-)

Perhaps the lengthy list in this thread have some items you have not encountered before. Obscure Weirdness Hunt

Thank you. The list is very interesting. A lot of stuff I have never read so far.

Here is a list of all the 170 authors, and their stories in the Fontana Book of Great Ghost Stories series: Fontana's Great Ghost Stories. Robert Aickman, who had a very good sense for quality, edited the first eight volumes. Not all are typical ghost stories, some are more of supernatural weird tales.

I read "The Red Brain" today and I cannot but feel about it like I did when I read it for the first time years abo. The story reminds me of "The Masque of The Red Death." by Mr. Poe in some way.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read "The Red Brain" today and I cannot but feel
> about it like I did when I read it for the first
> time years abo. The story reminds me of "The
> Masque of The Red Death." by Mr. Poe in some way.

How about "Colossus" and The Web of Easter Island?

I have only read some of Donald Wandrei's letters, in Mysteries of Time and Spirit, but couldn't quite hold up my interest. I thought he was not up to the intellectual level and impressive authority of Lovecraft, and a third of the way into the book I started skipping/skimming most of his part in the correspondence.

I have not read "The Web of Easter Island" and judging by the reviews I can find about the book, I am not sure I ever will.

As for his short stories, I have read cca. fifteen of them (not in “Colossus” but in “Don't Dream: The Collected Horror and Fantasy Fiction of Donald Wandrei” which also includes his poems, essays and illustrations) and I must say I was not impressed too much. You can find scores of similar stories which were written in the prime of pulp magazines (Weird Tales, Amazing Stories, etc.) by half-forgotten authors like Thorp McCluskey, David H. Keller, Frank Belknap Long and others. The best ones are “The Red Brain” (by the way, he wrote it when he was only sixteen years of age) and “A Fragment of a Dream” which reminds me of “Abominations of Yondo” in that it virtually has no plot and it is more or less a description of horrors and monsters inhabiting an abnormal and alien landscape the hero plunges through. “Spawn of the Sea” is about finding a shipwreck with an unknown life form that has developed inside the old hull, a story very similar to “The Derelict” by W.H. Hodgson. “A Scientist Divides” is about a guy who has found a chemical coumpound by means of which he is capable of dividing himself into two similar entities, one of the several stories in the collection which have a promising opening parts but gradually degenerate to something naive or ridiculous. Most of the tales are of such a quality I am not able to remember what they are about even I am reading their passages right now but what I have found really great about them is the fact they are very, very short so it is an ideal stuff to read before going to sleep – you are quite sure you can finish this story ot that because it is just three or four pages long.

“Don't Dream: The Collected Horror and Fantasy Fiction of Donald Wandrei”)
[www.goodreads.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17 May 20 | 09:10AM by Minicthulhu.

Thanks Minicthulhu, that was interesting. I don't think I will be reading much of Wandrei's work, aside from "The Red Brain" and "Colossus", and possibly The Web of Easter Island or at least parts of it if I can find it online. "The Tree-Men of M'Bwa" has an appealing fantastic title, I will probably take a closer look at it.

I once started reading "The Red Brain", but stopped because I thought the first sentences were not dynamic enough prose. The story may still have interesting conceptual ideas of course, which is what it is famous for.

Maybe Arthur Machen, specifically The White People? Plus I did read a collection of short stories - Last Stop Wellsbourne - recently by a UK author, which I guess had overtones of cosmic horror.

Somebody mentioned Michael Shea - Nift the Lean is a classic of its kind (it won the World Fantasy Award in 1982). I'm not sure if it counts as 'cosmic horror' but Nift's visits to a demonic underworld are pretty hair-raising.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nift the Lean is
> a classic of its kind (it won the World Fantasy
> Award in 1982). I'm not sure if it counts as
> 'cosmic horror' but Nift's visits to a demonic
> underworld are pretty hair-raising.


That book has several memorable weird scenes. Great imagination. Terrific in details. But not so very well developed and integrated as stories. The last episode I found pretty incomprehensible.

Michael Shea was really brilliant. I love "Fat Face" and "Polyphemus".

Absolutely - ie, I'd remember the Nift sequence mainly for its visual flair.

It's been a while since I last read the original quartet but I did read 'The A'rak' around ten years ago and was struck by the corollaries between the world Nift inhabits and the insect world; Shea seems to have used insect behaviour, life-cycles etc, as the basis for some of the stories.

I'm not sure what that last story was about either (aren't they assembling some sort of giant skeleton?) - it's as atmospheric as it is incomprehensible.

I don't have The A'rak, but I am eagerly waiting for In Yana, the Touch of Undying to surface in my towering to-read book pile.

A. E. van Vogt - The Voyage of the Space Beagle. Which includes four connected stories. "Black Destroyer" (has my favorite science fiction moment ever, in both book or film, when they step out on the planet in translucent space suits. A feverishly inspired vision.) and "Discord in Scarlet" are both good classic s-f horrors. "M33 I Andromeda" is very cosmic, and carries relation to John W. Campbell's "The Last Evolution", "Twilight", "Night", and to Arthur C. Clarke's The City and the Stars. It gives an effective glint of Man's future machines which become perfected self-repairing and self-generative geological automatons that start growing and multiplying, and change the nature of the galaxy. A very interesting concept and take on cosmic creation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19 May 20 | 06:06AM by Knygatin.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Nifft the Lean
>
> I'm not sure what that last story was about either
> (aren't they assembling some sort of giant
> skeleton?) - it's as atmospheric as it is
> incomprehensible.


Yes, building or reinforcing some sort of giant structure. That at the same time is eaten away by other forces? And they find aid beneath the sea, from some element that help them in the building? I can't remember. Strange and evasive as dream.

Dracula is one of the most horrifying books I have read! I am reading it slowly, one chapter at a time every now and then, in-between other books. It is a book that can be read that way, because it is very rational and clear, easy to understand and remember. It is extremely well written! I would call its approach basic and logical, but Bram Stoker does it masterfully, sees the underbelly, and nails every creepy situation just right! A true joy, and I feel no rush at all to get it done, no sense of labor to this reading, not a trace of padding.

Can Dracula be called cosmic horror?

George R.R. Martin is not a lesser-known author, but he did write a lesser-known sci-fi piece called THE DYING OF THE LIGHT (1977), which was his first novel. I don't know if I would classify it as cosmic horror, but perhaps it could be classed as cosmic melancholia. Certainly, Martin used the vastness of space as a prop to enhance the mood of nihilistic despair that was apparently engulfing him when he wrote it, one that, in the novel at least, is in some way obscurely related to mourning a lost love.

I don't think it is a good book, and I don't agree with its nihilistic message, which, in a nutshell, is despair and the pointlessness of human existence. But it has its points, and it is interesting as an illustration of the use of the vastness of space as a mood enhancer.

The opening chapter is where most of the cosmic elements are found, and I once had fun writing a mocking summary of this opening chapter and its over-the-top nihilism. I also read the book all the way through, which I do not necessarily recommend, though there is an impressive passage here or there. Also, a piece of trivia for those who are familiar with DUNGEONS AND DRAGON sourcebooks … this is the work where the "githyanki" are first mentioned, the name having been borrowed from Martin without permission by the folks at TSR.

A. E. van Vogt's "Repetition" (aka "The Gryb"). Emissary struggles for survival on one of Jupiter's moons under hellish conditions, hunted by invulnerable and persistent monster. Simulates the sensation of a nightmare, when not being able to escape.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "M33 I
> Andromeda" is very cosmic ... it gives an effective glint of
> Man's future machines which become perfected
> self-repairing and self-generative geological
> automatons that start growing and multiplying, and
> change the nature of the galaxy. A very
> interesting concept and take on cosmic creation.

If you don't appreciate the evocative vastness of this, then you are really missing out. It is utterly fantastic, while at the same time harboring a likely future, which makes it all the more compelling for the soul and senses. It is science fiction completely in touch with Time and Space and the Cosmos. Science fiction genius at its very best.

For example, I don't think Jack Vance ever reached this high level, comparatively his stories are "space opera", contemporary human interaction set against a space back-screen. As to CAS, well, I don't know, ... I would call his "science fiction" tales fantastic fantasy, and I appreciate them for what they are; bizarre, rich imagination, and their truths are more on the spiritual level, than scientific. And a well developed artistic sense. Similar for Vance.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you don't appreciate the evocative vastness of
> this, then you are really missing out. It is
> utterly fantastic, while at the same time
> harboring a likely future, which makes it all the
> more compelling for the soul and senses. It is
> science fiction completely in touch with Time and
> Space and the Cosmos. Science fiction genius at
> its very best.
>
> For example, I don't think Jack Vance ever reached
> this high level, comparatively his stories are
> "space opera", contemporary human interaction set
> against a space back-screen. As to CAS, well, I
> don't know, ... I would call his "science fiction"
> tales fantastic fantasy, and I appreciate them for
> what they are; bizarre, rich imagination, and
> their truths are more on the spiritual level, than
> scientific. And a well developed artistic sense.
> Similar for Vance.

As I recall, CAS was not very fond of writing science-fiction, stating he preferred the imaginative, unbound freedom of writing fantasy stories, so I can see why most of CAS's sci-fi feels half-hearted and forgettable, while his best ones usually verge on fantasy to some extent. I've only begun reading Vance, so I can't say much about him, except that he is at least a creative and highly competent writer.

I am very interested in "M33 in Andromeda" and will read it very soon. Strangely, it's uncommon for science-fiction authors to write anything that expresses and appreciates the vast scope of existence, so I look forward to something that can follow a humanistic and futuristic perspective without losing that very primal, glorious, above-human element.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 23 May 20 | 02:51PM by kojootti.

'I would call his "science fiction" tales fantastic fantasy'.'

Very much so. The first CAS story I ever read was The Maze of Maal Dweb. Apart from the extraordinary prose, what struck me was that - as a story - it was unclassifiable. In my head, 'fantasy' meant some sort of quasi-medieval culture and 'science fiction' meant spaceships. The Maze of Maal Dweb is neither, or rather it is primarily fantasy, but with SF trappings (Dweb's giant metal servitors, for example) although I appreciate it was being written at a time when the divisions between the two genres wasn't as clear as they later became.

'Strangely, it's uncommon for science-fiction authors to write anything that expresses and appreciates the vast scope of existence.'

It is strange! I find the notion of space - its vastness, its coldness, its general emptiness, those huge areas of darkness - far more unsettling than some tentacled being from the deep, but SF rarely conveys or acknowledges this, perhaps because (a) in most SF books, space is just a place between destinations & (b) a tendency of the genre to stress the positive: that man has mastered space and (by extension) somehow contained it.

For notions of the vastness of space and time, we may also have Olaf Stapledon who wrote Last and First Men and Star Maker, but I cannot assess his quality, because I have not read him yet. He was an inspiration for Arthur C. Clarke.

Not sure though if Stapledon touched on the unsettling aspects of space. Most authors make of space an intellectual gymnastics, but rarely explore the horror of it.

I think CAS referred to space as the Abyss, so he had an artistic poetic notion that somewhat perceived the horror.
Lovecraft reminded us of the madness that would consume us, if our minds were confronted by and opened to this vastness.

"The Terror on Tobit" (1933) by Charles Birkin. A fine little weird tale, taking place on the summer Isles of Scilly. I also recommend his stylish and harrowing conte cruel "The Smell of Evil" (1964). And "Ballet Nègre" (1964), about voodoo magic visiting England in the form of a theatrical group.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dracula is one of the most horrifying books I have
> read! I am reading it slowly, one chapter at a
> time every now and then, in-between other books.
> It is a book that can be read that way, because it
> is very rational and clear, easy to understand and
> remember. It is extremely well written! I would
> call its approach basic and logical, but Bram
> Stoker does it masterfully, sees the underbelly,
> and nails every creepy situation just right! A
> true joy, and I feel no rush at all to get it
> done, no sense of labor to this reading, not a
> trace of padding.
>
> Can Dracula be called cosmic horror?


Good Lord, I haven't read a single page of Dracula in probably a month! The spectacularly enjoyable beginning of the book lasted a few chapters, but then came to a grinding halt. I have been struggling almost halfway through, but it is slow and resisting my progress. I have just drifted away from it, and forget to read. But I still hope I will be able to complete it. People complain over Hodgson's Night Land, but this is slower.

I know that feeling. This is probably the worst thing that might happen to a book. You are reading without paying attention to what the plot is about ... It happened to me the other day, when I was reading a book so boring and dull that I had not the slightest idea what the several pages I had "read" were about because I was thinking about something else all the time ... It was useless to try to read on or to pretend to read on so I put it aside, promising to myself I would get round to it sometimes in the future but I wonder if I ever will ...

Exactly. I have had too many reads in the past where I fought to reach the end of the book, so I could begin another "better" instead. It doesn't happen so often anymore, because I have become much more careful in selection. I don't just pick up any book with exciting cover art, and start to read. I do my research first.

But it is bound to happen. When one has done a lot of reading, fantasy "action adventure" formulas repeat themselves in book after book. The chase through underground complexes, and exploring one room after another, probably being the most recurring example of chewed formula. Ugh! And the limited human perspective of mediocre authors handle the same basic issues over and over. Finally it becomes very boring. Then one demands to read only exceptional authors that bring something new or look deeper. But those become increasingly rare. The very best authors of superior intelligence are worth re-reading over and over.

By the way, the book I referred to is "Zanoni," a fact which may take a connoisseur of the genre by surprise because Mr. Lovecraft praised the book so much, but I really was unable to finish it ... I am sorry Mr. Bulwer-Lytton ... But, still, as far as boredom goes, "Zanoni" is no match on "La Révolte Des Anges" (1914) by France Anatome; this is probably the worst book I have ever read, in the teeth of the high ratings it gets.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A. E. van Vogt - The Voyage of the Space Beagle.
> Which includes four connected stories. "Black
> Destroyer" (has my favorite science fiction moment
> ever, in both book or film, when they step out on
> the planet in translucent space suits. A
> feverishly inspired vision.) and "Discord in
> Scarlet" are both good classic s-f horrors. "M33 I
> Andromeda" is very cosmic, and carries relation to
> John W. Campbell's "The Last Evolution",
> "Twilight", "Night", and to Arthur C. Clarke's The
> City and the Stars. It gives an effective glint of
> Man's future machines which become perfected
> self-repairing and self-generative geological
> automatons that start growing and multiplying, and
> change the nature of the galaxy. A very
> interesting concept and take on cosmic creation.


Van Voght was one of the first SF writers I can recall being interested in. I got my Mom to sign me up (this was a big mistake on her part) for the Doubleday SF Book Club and Slan and Voyage of the Space Beagle were two of the first monthly selections. Maybe War Against the Rull, too.

I'm going to veer off here a bit, if you don't mind, because you seem to have read a lot of stuff that I read, as well.

I may have asked this, but have you read J. G. Ballard, in particular Vermilion Sands? If you have, what are your impressions? I most recently re-read this about 6-12 months ago. I'm finding that it stands up, for me, surprisingly well.

In those early S Book Club days, I can recall Nightfall (Asimov?) quite vividly as a mental exercise: what, exactly, would it mean to a world that has never seen complete night to witness a complete absence of sun for a period of time?

There's also a very intriguing story that I have not been able to run down. I sorta thought it was called "Mars Shops, Ltd", but I must have this wrong. The upshot is that a shop with miraculous, unexplainable merchandise--a lot like a Sharper Image if the products came from a higher-order civilization--gets opened on 5th Ave in NYC. There are two significant plot twists beyond this, but I won't tell, just in case you ever get to read the story.

There was the Clark story, Sentinel, that again had a very intriguing POV for a 12-year old to read. I never had any religious upbringing, so I took it probably differently than someone with a more traditionally religious background may have.

All of these are short stories, except the Van Voght stuff. Vermilion Sands is a thematically related collection. like Zothique.

Do you recall reading any of these, Knygatin? If so, I'd be interested in hearing your impressions?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have not read any of those unfortunately, except "The Sentinel" which I don't recall in detail (I remember the telescope, because I have one exactly like it). I read Arthur C. Clarke's short story collection The Nine Billion Names of God and enjoyed it very much, especially "Rescue Party" which was humorous. I like how Clarke has an enormous cosmic weird sensibility, and yet, in contrast to Lovecraft being very optimistic in his outlook.

I really haven't read a whole lot of books. I try to read the classics and the, reputedly, very best, in the fields and styles that interest and appeal to me.

Well, it's all for fun, isn't it?

Literature for enjoyment...very good!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hah! Found it!

The story about the store with Martian goods...

[www.writing.upenn.edu]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, it's all for fun, isn't it?
>
>

A bit. But not primarily for me. Maybe in sunny California? ( I have a 20 Golden Greats of Beach Boys record which is wonderful, with songs like Fun, Fun, Fun.)

I would say I primarily seek ecstasy. And it entails at least a verisimilitude of realism (which was also Lovecraft's recipe. Or else it falls flat.), mixed with heightened aesthetic levels of weird beauty.

P. G. Wodehouse is a fun author. I started laughing out loud on the first page of Uncle Dynamite.

I' read about a philosophy wherein the seeking of ecstasy is the greatest good. That my well be. But I'm thinking that everyone's emotional/spiritual range and capacity differs greatly, and at age 72, I sit here and am unsure I've ever experienced what I have heard ecstasy to be, if we use a common definition:

an overwhelming feeling of great happiness or joyful excitement.

I can feel contentment and satisfaction, possibly in lieu of ecstasy.

I can recall having a discussion with a friend over the topic of "happiness". His definition was a lot closer to the above definition of ecstasy, so I had to admit to him that I'd never been happy.

...but I felt content in saying that... ;^)

I had a pain prescription for a common opioid for about 3 years to combat pain from a hip that I could not have replaced immediately, and that took me places, mentally, that were *different*; the best description is the Kipling story something like "Gate of 100 Sorrows".

This made me aware of *why* many people seem to like opioids/opiates.

But on the whole, not a good trade-off, in my opinion.

So I guess what I'm looking for a some mental stimulation followed by a feeling of contentment--more like what I get out of a lot of music. However, some also gets to some pretty weird places--maybe ecstasy?...

Interesting discussion.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cosmic horror — get the novella “Rogue Moon” by Algis Budrys (SF Hall of Fame: Novellas, Vol. 2).

Howard Fast wrote a LOT of short stories (re the Martian story) - I have a hardback of one such collection: 'A Touch of Infinity'. It well worth checking out.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I would say I primarily seek ecstasy. And it
> entails at least a verisimilitude of realism
> (or else it falls flat), mixed with heightened aesthetic
> levels of weird beauty.
>

I need to modulate that statement. I would say I seek truth. And genuine aesthetic beauty is an expression of truth (in contrast to bad art, confusion, and falsity). It is present in Nature and in great art. That gives me ecstasy. Too much chaotic confusion in early life has led me to a great need for seeking truth, in everything I do, not just in literature and art. Often plucking apart and trying to get to the roots of matters, both on the immediate, worldly, and cosmic level.

I am aware of the lures of opioids (have received it before surgery) and other drugs, like alcohol and simple cigarettes. It numbs and tricks the ego to let go of worries, and gives sensations of "ecstasy". But it is destructive, and not a path toward truth. I think CAS's "The City of the Singing Flame" and its sequel allegorically describe the effects of opioid/heroin.

I will not say more about that here.


Back on topic, perhaps I might again recommend C. L. Moore's (with Henry Kuttner) "Vintage Season". Not sure about horror (maybe in the eye of the beholder), but some fine weird cosmic suspense.
I just read Kuttner's "The Graveyard Rats" (1936). It copies Lovecraft, but without the atmosphere and unique artistic vision. Only trying to be gruesome, which it succeeds at fairly well. Could make a very good EC Horror Creepshow film episode.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22 Aug 20 | 06:27AM by Knygatin.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Howard Fast wrote a LOT of short stories (re the
> Martian story) - I have a hardback of one such
> collection: 'A Touch of Infinity'. It well worth
> checking out.


Thanks! I will.

Re-readibg the story yesterday, probably for the first time since maybe 1960 or so, I was struck with two thing: it's aimed at a fairly credulous and immature audience--possibly the same audience that went big-time for Heinlein; and it was very *cleverly* put together.

I see where the guy was a veritable writing machine, and if practice makes perfect...well, he had plenty of practice.

Also, I could see where this might appeal to the 12-year old me, and I enjoyed the concept and the descriptions a lot yesterday, even.

The denouement was clumsy as hell, though...

BTW, checking some of the titles I mentioned as influential in my youth, I mentioned "The Sentinel". Wrong. It was "The Star".

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cosmic horror — get the novella “Rogue Moon”
> by Algis Budrys (SF Hall of Fame: Novellas, Vol.
> 2).


Dale, meant to ask you a while back...

I had an English department class that was titled something like "Modern Science Fiction". This was at Cal Poly, SLO, in the early 70's. I still can recall the prof; he was very engaging in class, and a very tough grader. This was a great combination and motivated me to really become absorbed in the material.

Sadly, the brain cells have fallen away since then...

One writer that drew a lot of class discussion at that time was Barry Maltzberg. At that time he was using 2nd person present tense as a narrative device, with an unreliable narrator.

Have you ever encountered his works? I haven't seen anything of his since that class, and for sure, that particular style can wear thin.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish, do you remember other authors or works from that course?

But, no, as far as I remember I’ve never read Malzberg.

At Fancyclopedia 3 online you can check the entry on Brian Bond, who taught various courses on fantasy and sf in the early and mid-1970s. He was a great guy.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish, do you remember other authors or works
> from that course?

No.

I was trying to, but all that happened was that smoke came out of my ears... :^(

>
> But, no, as far as I remember I’ve never read
> Malzberg.

I looked at Wikipedia just after I posted and he seems to have been a really varied commercial writer--a sort of Kilgore Trout.

[en.wikipedia.org]

>
> At Fancyclopedia 3 online you can check the entry
> on Brian Bond, who taught various courses on
> fantasy and sf in the early and mid-1970s. He was
> a great guy.

I am also trying to recall the prof's name. He was Jewish and from the east coast. He was not a whole lot older than I was when I took the class--I'd guess he was in his early thirties; maybe I was about 28 or so.

I'll try to recall more works; sometimes that helps, just to make mental links...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> L. A. Lewis ... his stories are very
> bizzare, true weird tales. "Animate in Death",
> "The Tower of Moab"

Can these be found online somewhere?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minicthulhu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > L. A. Lewis ... his stories are very
> > bizzare, true weird tales. "Animate in Death",
> > "The Tower of Moab"
>
> Can these be found online somewhere?


I do not think so but the stories are definitely worth reading. The best one is "Animate in Death", it takes place at The Broads and tells a tale about a man living in his houseboat who has a strange, recurring and horrible dream about a female corpse, that is suspended in a state which is not life nor death in some kind of a water medium.

"I remembered the exact conditions of falling asleep, precisely how I had been lying and how the furniture had looked in the light of the lamp which I had left burning; but, try as I would, I could not think myself back into reality. All that I saw was real: the green, cloudy water, the corpse, and the sluggish fishes. My ordinary life was cut off from me by an invisible, impalpable barrier, suggesting that Death itself had overtaken me. It was not until the body's rotting lips opened as though to speak and an eel swam out that I awoke out of that horrible sleep. I fainted then for the first time in my life—or, if you like, dreamed that I fainted—and came to lying just where your chair is on the cabin floor."

"Bury Him Darkly" (1969) by John Blackburn.
[www.goodreads.com]

I have finally read a story by L. A. Lewis, "The Child". His prose is perhaps not as artistically refined as that of better known supernatural writers, a bit more crude; but it is clear enough, and he has a good sensible grasp of horror.

I have read a few other ghost stories concerning dead children, and have not been very enthusiastic about them, because they are mostly tragic more than anything else to my senses. This includes "The Child", although it has also a horrifying conclusion of a distanced primal perspective, that makes it quite interesting to reflect on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 21 Nov 20 | 02:08AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have finally read a story by L. A. Lewis, "The
> Child".
>
> I have read a few other ghost stories concerning
> dead children, and have not been very enthusiastic
> about them, because they are mostly tragic more
> than anything else to my senses. This includes
> "The Child", although it has also a horrifying
> conclusion of a distanced primal perspective.

Perhaps Ramsey Campbell's The Doll Who Ate His Mother is related in perspective? Has anyone here read that book, and can recommend it?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have finally read a story by L. A. Lewis,
> > "The Child".
> > I have read a few other ghost stories concerning
> > dead children, and have not been very enthusiastic
> > about them, because they are mostly tragic more
> > than anything else to my senses. This includes
> > "The Child", although it has also a horrifying
> > conclusion of a distanced primal perspective.

> Perhaps Ramsey Campbell's The Doll Who Ate His
> Mother is related in perspective? Has anyone here
> read that book, and can recommend it?


I have read The Doll Who Ate His Mother and thought it very good, even for a first novel. As far as being related to the subject at hand, however, it is not a dead child/ghost story, or even a horror story per se, except in the broadest sense. It is more of a suspense-plus-psychological portrait of a serial killer. I liked it at any rate, for whatever that's worth.

GreenFedora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have read The Doll Who Ate His Mother and
> thought it very good, even for a first novel. As
> far as being related to the subject at hand,
> however, it is not a dead child/ghost story, or
> even a horror story per se, except in the broadest
> sense. It is more of a suspense-plus-psychological
> portrait of a serial killer. I liked it at any
> rate, for whatever that's worth.


Thank you. Interesting, and unexpected. I was hoping for a work that have some more of the marvelously straightforward visually graphic and supernatural psychedelic prose of his early short-stories.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good Lord, I haven't read a single page of Dracula
> in probably a month! The spectacularly enjoyable
> beginning of the book lasted a few chapters, but
> then came to a grinding halt. I have been
> struggling almost halfway through, but it is slow
> and resisting my progress. I have just drifted
> away from it, and forget to read. But I still hope
> I will be able to complete it. People complain
> over Hodgson's Night Land, but this is slower.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that feeling. This is probably the worst
> thing that might happen to a book. ...


I was finally able to complete Dracula a while back. It is very well written, ... especially the moments of supernatural horror are masterful. But it is too long, it drags, and could easily have been shortened by at least a third. The narrative documents every step the characters take, even the mundane in between. I have a very short attention span for bridging passages, and in my opinion every moment in a book, even the quieter ones, should be charged with deeper meaning and atmosphere.

Although several fine vampire and Dracula films have been made, none of them have quite captured the quality of Stoker's impressive imagination of horror in Dracula.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13 Mar 21 | 04:23AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a very short attention
> span for bridging passages, and in my opinion
> every moment in a book, even the quieter ones,
> should be charged with deeper meaning and
> atmosphere.
>

Or at least some interesting details. I appreciated the travelogue descriptions in Dracula of fine Hungarian & Rumanian food and wine, and made some notes of that for my travels.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have read a few other ghost stories concerning
> dead children, and have not been very enthusiastic
> about them, because they are mostly tragic more
> than anything else to my senses.

Some of the most effective and creepy elements of Stephen King's SALEM'S LOT were the scenes involving child vampires. These scenes were also effectively captured, and maybe even enhanced, in the 70s TV movie adaptation. King returned to the theme with his short story "One for the Road", but it was not as effective IMHO. At the moment, I can't think of better examples.

I too liked the "travelogue details" in Dracula, as I recall. I can enjoy it when an author lays such details on thick. I suppose my favorite parts of "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" and "The Whisperer in Darkness" are those evoking their locales; for example, I love the bus ride stuff in "Innsmouth." The old weird America....

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Good Lord, I haven't read a single page of
> Dracula
> > in probably a month! The spectacularly
> enjoyable
> > beginning of the book lasted a few chapters,
> but
> > then came to a grinding halt. I have been
> > struggling almost halfway through, but it is
> slow
> > and resisting my progress. I have just drifted
> > away from it, and forget to read. But I still
> hope
> > I will be able to complete it. People complain
> > over Hodgson's Night Land, but this is slower.
>
> Minicthulhu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know that feeling. This is probably the worst
> > thing that might happen to a book. ...
>
>
> I was finally able to complete Dracula a while
> back. It is very well written, ... especially the
> moments of supernatural horror are masterful. But
> it is too long, it drags, and could easily have
> been shortened by at least a third. The narrative
> documents every step the characters take, even the
> mundane in between. I have a very short attention
> span for bridging passages, and in my opinion
> every moment in a book, even the quieter ones,
> should be charged with deeper meaning and
> atmosphere.

This is a good opinions to share in that it causes readers of ED to review their own criteria for evaluating a narrative.

Thinking on it, I mostly agree with your observation, with a caveat: sometimes these otherwise mundane bridging sections tend to establish,or support, verisimilitude and/or credibility, making the central action, or characters, more believable.

Now, that said, there's only alimited place for this in a novel like Dracula.

>
> Although several fine vampire and Dracula films
> have been made, none of them have quite captured
> the quality of Stoker's impressive imagination of
> horror in Dracula.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sometimes these
> otherwise mundane bridging sections tend to
> establish,or support, verisimilitude and/or
> credibility, making the central action, or
> characters, more believable.
>

Yes, I suppose. That is true, but still, even the mundane bridging sections can be made into art, by a carefully observant writer. There always exist details, even in the most dull scene, that can be tapped into for some deeper interesting essence.

Lovecraft also argued that mundane scenes were necessary to establish verisimilitude. But I don't think he wrote a single paragraph in his stories that lacked interesting observations. He always had something to say.

The idea of otherwise helpless or innocent individuals being possessed of evil intent ad posing a threat is particularly potent.

There is an old 60s horror anthology film, Spirits of the Dead, in which there is an episode (Toby Dammit) by Fellini where the Devil is a little girl with a red balloon.

Kinda creepy.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some of the most effective and creepy elements of
> Stephen King's SALEM'S LOT were the scenes
> involving child vampires. These scenes were also
> effectively captured, and maybe even enhanced, in
> the 70s TV movie adaptation.


That one, Tobe Hooper's Salem's Lot, may be my all-time favorite movie. I also saw it at just the right age, in my most impressionable teen years. It is creepy as hell! It has phenomenal atmosphere, and adventurous expectancy. The mission the man and boy team take upon themselves, is of Biblical proportions, and very engaging. All the actors are perfect in their roles, James Mason being my favorite, in his exquisite arrogance; not to mention the vampire, it looks like the real thing, not acting!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > sometimes these
> > otherwise mundane bridging sections tend to
> > establish,or support, verisimilitude and/or
> > credibility, making the central action, or
> > characters, more believable.
> >
>
> Yes, I suppose. That is true, but still, even the
> mundane bridging sections can be made into art, by
> a carefully observant writer. There always exist
> details, even in the most dull scene, that can be
> tapped into for some deeper interesting essence.

So basically you're not arguing against the use of bridges so much as against the practice of mediocre writing?


>
> Lovecraft also argued that mundane scenes were
> necessary to establish verisimilitude. But I don't
> think he wrote a single paragraph in his stories
> that lacked interesting observations. He always
> had something to say.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So basically you're not arguing against the use of
> bridges so much as against the practice of
> mediocre writing?
>

I want the bridges to be interesting in themselves. One might then question if they are still bridges.

The greatest writers don't use bridges, because Existence is a continual flow of life, without interruption.

The greatest painters don't use bridges, they fill the whole canvas with life, high-key, low-key, high-energy, low-energy, extended, contracted, every section vibrates in one form or another.

Butting into this discussion about "bridges" --

I'd say that I agree with Knygatin if his point is that "bridges" are not automatically given a free pass as qualifying as art -- which I think no one was saying.

But I wouldn't agree if the implication was that all literature must be written with the unrelenting intensity that Poe prescribes for a short story or a short poem.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Butting into this discussion about "bridges" --
>
> I'd say that I agree with Knygatin if his point is
> that "bridges" are not automatically given a free
> pass as qualifying as art -- which I think no one
> was saying.
>
> But I wouldn't agree if the implication was that
> all literature must be written with the
> unrelenting intensity that Poe prescribes for a
> short story or a short poem.

From the context of the discussion I think K. means narrative transitions--getting from one significant dramatic incident or situation to a subsequent one. Often the transition contains enough expository material to make the next "scene" meaningful. I mean, it serves the same function as stage directions but needs to be more than simply "Somewhere on a blasted heath...".

The expository can contain artistically, stylistically superior prose, and if so, so much the better--although there's also the danger that the author might get carried away with his own creativity, and write what amounts to undergrad prose like one would find in a creative writing class.

I, myself, have produced such bloated and postured verbiage. Getting just a bit *too* cute... :^(

At this stage in my life I'll tolerate quite a bit of relatively bare, functional transitional prose, so long as it gets me to the proper context to understand and believe the next scene.

There is such a thing as pacing--unrelenting display of artistry in a longer narrative gives no "contour" to the evoked response in the reader. It can serve the same function as comic relief--which is in a sense a short break to catch one's emotional breath.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish, I've taught "creative writing" (it was assigned to me). With the permission of the department chairman, after about three rounds thereof i was relieved of the responsibility by the expedient of the course being removed from the department offerings. It wasn't a bad experience overall, but I wasn't qualified to teach anything but fiction writing (if that) -- so no poetry, and (more to the point) no stand-up comedy-type stuff. There was kind of a classroom mutiny over my stance about that -- ! I'm grinning as I type this; please don't assume it was a terrible experience for anyone.

Dostoevsky tends to write largely in terms of long dramatic scenes with bridges between them. As he is one of my favorite authors, it would take quite a bit of persuasion to bring me to see his work as flawed for this reason. But then he's writing long novels, not ten-page short stories.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'd say that I agree with Knygatin if his point is
> that "bridges" are not automatically given a free
> pass as qualifying as art -- which I think no one
> was saying.
>


Then we would have a novel, or a story, with pages that interchange between fine literature and bad writing, between art and crap. No, I can't accept that. I don't want any such books on my shelves.

Other words for "bridge" are "transport", "passage", "transit", or could be "filler", "padding". I understand that build-up is valuable, and also that between two intense scenes there needs to be a quieter moment or a different pace connecting them. But even quieter moments can be fine literature, written with subtle touch, it doesn't necessarily need to be intense.

I just can't stand it when I feel that a writer relaxes his artistic efforts over a "bridge", and doesn't make it the best he possibly can. Reading mediocre literature bores me to death, it makes me cringe, makes me angry, and restless, wanting to tear the book apart.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I'd say that I agree with Knygatin if his point
> is
> > that "bridges" are not automatically given a
> free
> > pass as qualifying as art -- which I think no
> one
> > was saying.
> >
>
>
> Then we would have a novel, or a story, with pages
> that interchange between fine literature and bad
> writing, between art and crap. No, I can't accept
> that. I don't want any such books on my shelves.
>
> Other words for "bridge" are "transport",
> "passage", "transit", or could be "filler",
> "padding". I understand that build-up is valuable,
> and also that between two intense scenes there
> needs to be a quieter moment or a different pace
> connecting them. But even quieter moments can be
> fine literature, written with subtle touch, it
> doesn't necessarily need to be intense.
>
> I just can't stand it when I feel that a writer
> relaxes his artistic efforts over a "bridge", and
> doesn't make it the best he possibly can. Reading
> mediocre literature bores me to death, it makes me
> cringe, makes me angry, and restless, wanting to
> tear the book apart.

In support of your point about an artistic transition from one scene dramatic action to another, there's this remarkable bridging passage in Raymond Chandler's "The Little Sister". He's driving from on place of action to another, at night...

Quote:

The Little Sister:
I stepped out into the night air that nobody had yet found out how to option. But a lot of people were probably trying. They’d get around to it.
I drove on to the Oxnard cut-off and turned back along the ocean. The big eight-wheelers and sixteen-wheelers were streaming north, all hung over with orange lights. On the right the great fat solid Pacific trudging into shore like a scrubwoman going home. No moon, no fuss, hardly a sound of the surf. No smell. None of the harsh wild smell of the sea. A California ocean. California, the department-store state. The most of everything and the best of nothing. Here we go again. You’re not human tonight, Marlowe.

All right. Why should I be?…Who am I cutting my throat for this time? …All I know is that something isn’t what it seems and the old tired but always reliable hunch tells me that if the hand is played the way it is dealt the wrong person is going to lose the pot. Is that my business? Well, what is my business? Do I know? Did I ever know? Let’s not go into that. You’re not human tonight, Marlowe. Maybe I never was or ever will be…Maybe we all get like this in the cold half-lit world where always the wrong thing happens and never the right.

Now, wait a minute…You’ve got the wrong attitude, Marlowe. You’re not human tonight.

So then you end up at the next scene of dramatic action.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The greatest writers don't use bridges, because
> Existence is a continual flow of life, without
> interruption.
>
> The greatest painters don't use bridges, they fill
> the whole canvas with life, high-key, low-key,
> high-energy, low-energy, extended, contracted,
> every section vibrates in one form or another.

Seems to me that we mere mortals will always fall short of our Creator who is the Greatest Writer and Greatest Painter. Our art, hence, must always have need of shortcuts, in one form or another. Anyhow a narrative and a still painting are very different forms of art with very different limitations. In a narrative, one can walk up to a tree, look behind it, and see what is there, whereas in a still painting, one is stuck with a single scene.

I'm not sure who, among us mere mortals, you consider a "greatest writer". Nor am I sure what you define as a "bridge". But at present, I'm having difficulty seeing how you could defend this proposition without running afoul of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Knygatin, your objection seems after all just to be to bad transitions/bridges, not to the species as such, which is fine. You're perhaps more senstive to defective art in the writing of transitions than I am, but we haven't got down to cases to discuss particulars.

Wanna know what gets me, folks? Anachronistic dialogue in historical fiction. Some author goes and researches "background" but has some character exclaim an exultant "Yesssss!"

Yechh!

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In support of your point about an artistic
> transition from one scene dramatic action to
> another, there's this remarkable bridging passage
> in Raymond Chandler's "The Little Sister". He's
> driving from on place of action to another, at
> night...
>

Although I am unfamiliar with Raymond Chandler's writing, and don't quite get his reference perspective here, I can appreciate his effort of reflectiveness over living in this bridging passage.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Seems to me that we mere mortals will always fall
> short of our Creator who is the Greatest Writer
> and Greatest Painter. Our art, hence, must always
> have need of shortcuts, in one form or another.


Agreed.


> Anyhow a narrative and a still painting are very
> different forms of art with very different
> limitations. In a narrative, one can walk up to a
> tree, look behind it, and see what is there,
> whereas in a still painting, one is stuck with a
> single scene.
>

Unless it be a surrealist painting.

I admit that my proposition is not well presented with thorough examples. I merely mentioned what I don't like, not intending a further debate.

Some artists/writers are more talented than others. But I think, even more importantly, it comes down to artistic honesty. I appreciate true effort, but don't appreciate laziness and easy paths. I just recognize it intuitively.

I made a comment about "bridges", and it developed into a discussion. With respect to the original thread starter, I will stop here. I may comment the subject further in a more appropriate thread.

Quote:

K:
Although I am unfamiliar with Raymond Chandler's writing, and don't quite get his reference perspective here, I can appreciate his effort of reflectiveness over living in this bridging passage.

Not to belabor it too much, bit it seemed to me to be a fine example of an artful bridge.

He is at Point A, at the conclusion of scene 1, and now, for believablity, he must somehow get to Point B to start scene 2.

Here we get a mix of hard fact (left onto PCH near Topanga Canyon Blvd, seems like, south-eastish toward Santa Monica), along with impressions of the drive, with the trucks, etc. all the while ruminating on life i 1940s SCal, and his place in it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I made a comment about "bridges", and it developed
> into a discussion. With respect to the original
> thread starter, I will stop here. I may comment
> the subject further in a more appropriate thread.

FWIW, my preference is to continue a thread/thought until dropped by mutual or collective agreement, barring overt and déclassé abuse of a deeply personal nature.

Demonstrates moxie and commitment.

In the case of the final clause, pretty much anything goes at that point. Poison gas, tactical nukes, what-have-you.

Of course, this is what creates the wasteland formerly known as Usenet.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Transferring the "bridges" discussion to the "Super Thread," as Knygatin did, seems like a good idea.