Cathbad Wrote:
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> My bad! I guess selling mementos of an event
> before it actually happened would have shown a lot
> of foresight on J.C.’s part? But then he is the
> Son of God.


Maybe you're right! Another miracle!

If there's one thing I can recall on my trips to Tijuana back in the 60s, when I was in college, is that there sure were a lot of street vendors trying to sell crucifixes, even to my Jewish room-mate, who often accompanied me.

That, and multicolored bullwhips.

So anyway, these crucifixes (and bullwhips) had to come from somewhere, right?

A sort of cottage industry...

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Mar 21 | 04:14PM by Sawfish.

Like Platypus says, carving a cross out of wood is pretty straightforward. Carving the figure nailed to it is a bit trickier. My dad was always struck by how Christianity - a religion promoting brotherly love - relied on such a gruesome image as its calling card.

Whatever about a crucifix, why did the street vendors think anybody might be interested in buying a bullwhip?

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like Platypus says, carving a cross out of wood is
> pretty straightforward. Carving the figure nailed
> to it is a bit trickier. My dad was always struck
> by how Christianity - a religion promoting
> brotherly love - relied on such a gruesome image
> as its calling card.
>
> Whatever about a crucifix, why did the street
> vendors think anybody might be interested in
> buying a bullwhip?


Not sure, my best guess is that Mexicans primarily (or mostly) of native indigenous descent ("los indios", according to those of european descent) may be confused about the significance of the crucifixion--they may actually think that the religion is centered on the *acts* of scourging and crucifixion, rather than on the specific person being scourged and crucified, and so these are sort of fetish items.

You know, like the little souvenir bats you can buy at Dodger Stadium.

Or, it could be simply that they are cheap and easy to make.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Hardcore catholicism was already dying out in Ireland when I was a kid, but you still had the annual pilgrimage up Croagh Patrick - a large, stone-covered mountain in the west of Ireland. The more devout did it barefoot while flagellating themselves.

A lot of that sort of religious paraphinalia (ie, scourges etc) could be bought from the church itself and were either made by orphans working in the church’s ‘industrial schools’ or perhaps further afield - ie, countries like the Philippines, where the church had a presence. Nice!

"...A lot of that sort of religious paraphinalia (ie, scourges etc) could be bought from the church itself and were either made by orphans working in the church’s ‘industrial schools’ "

Gosh, this sounds a lot like the SS selling non-functional gas masks, made by the inmates of a forced labor camp, to those entering the gas chambers.

Except that the SS never did that--maybe they weren't comfortable going that far...

;^)

Time for me to reign it in, huh? :^)

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Not at all. Knock yourself out.

Sawfish Wrote:
> Not sure, my best guess is that Mexicans primarily
> (or mostly) of native indigenous descent ("los
> indios", according to those of european descent)
> may be confused about the significance of the
> crucifixion--they may actually think that the
> religion is centered on the *acts* of scourging
> and crucifixion, rather than on the specific
> person being scourged and crucified, and so these
> are sort of fetish items.

You have to be a modern city person to think of a bullwhip as a fetish item. To the extent that bullwhips, multicolored or otherwise, are a traditional part of rural indigenous culture, they are practical tools. And, as the term implies, they are for use on large thick-skinned animals who would laugh at you if you used ordinary whips. Also, the whip cracking sound - a sonic boom - can be used to drive cattle without even touching them (the usual method, as one does not want to hurt animals unnecessarily). They are not for use on people.

The religious idea behind self-flagellation and other forms of penance is, of course, self-mortification and self-denial and the training of the will. So, in theory at least, such scourges would not be "fetish items". And, again, you would not use a bullwhip. If you flagellate yourself because it happens to be sexy fun for you, you are cheating, and probably ought to try another form of penance. But of course, I'm not suggesting that Christians never cheated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Mar 21 | 08:48PM by Platypus.

This kind of fetish, Platypus:

[en.wikipedia.org]

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This kind of fetish, Platypus:
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]


Oh, sorry. But, in my defense, I must say that, under that definition, the sentence you wrote still does not make sense to me. Nor can I follow the train of logic that concludes that, if a person sells cattle whips to tourists, he does not understand Christianity.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This kind of fetish, Platypus:
> >
> > [en.wikipedia.org]
>
>
> Oh, sorry. But, in my defense, I must say that,
> under that definition, the sentence you wrote
> still does not make sense to me. Nor can I follow
> the train of logic that concludes that, if a
> person sells cattle whips to tourists, he does not
> understand Christianity.

I can see that I'll need to use a lot more smilies, Platypus.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hardcore catholicism was already dying out in
> Ireland when I was a kid, but you still had the
> annual pilgrimage up Croagh Patrick - a large,
> stone-covered mountain in the west of Ireland. The
> more devout did it barefoot while flagellating
> themselves.

When exactly was this? There was a tradition of selling sticks to pilgrims, but AFAIK they were walking sticks to help keep one's footing while climbing the hill. They were not for beating oneself with. Gluttons for punishment would take off their shoes and attempt the climb (usually, only part of it) barefoot. From the looks of the hill, I think you'd need tough feet to do the entire climb. This seems like challenge enough. If more was needed, some tried it shirtless in the rain. Some fasted beforehand for a longer or shorter period, and made the climb on an empty stomach. I can find no reference to self-flagellation ever being part of the tradition. But maybe I'm missing something.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 7 Mar 21 | 10:59PM by Platypus.

Sawfish Wrote:
> I can see that I'll need to use a lot more
> smilies, Platypus.


Well. I did see the smileys in your gas chamber remarks.

As for your bullwhip fetish joke, I admit it went WAY over my head. Where it remains. But I know it ruins a joke when you explain it, so never mind.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 7 Mar 21 | 11:16PM by Platypus.

'When exactly was this? There was a tradition of selling sticks to pilgrims, but AFAIK they were walking sticks to help keep one's footing while climbing the hill. They were not for beating oneself with. Gluttons for punishment would take off their shoes and attempt the climb (usually, only part of it) barefoot. From the looks of the hill, I think you'd need tough feet to do the entire climb. This seems like challenge enough. If more was needed, some tried it shirtless in the rain. Some fasted beforehand for a longer or shorter period, and made the climb on an empty stomach. I can find no reference to self-flagellation ever being part of the tradition. But maybe I'm missing something.'

ROFL. Well I don’t think they’d be selling scourges at the foot of Croagh Patrick! You’d have to go to a shop specialising in Ecclesiastical supplies - I’m guessing they were mostly used by priests, but an ordinary Catholic could buy one, if he or she was so inclined. Nor am I saying it was common practice, but I remember seeing news clips of the devout ascending Croagh Patrick as a kid (an annual event) and there was always a few eejits busily flogging themselves. So we’re maybe talking the early seventies?

The heyday of the Catholic Church in Ireland was relatively short-lived (although it’s still a force to be reckoned with) as its rise is very closely linked to Irish independence. I’d say from the Eucharistic Congress in ’32 up to Vatican II? Their handling of sexual abuse allegations was a major setback in terms of credibility.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 Mar 21 | 06:13AM by Cathbad.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> > I can see that I'll need to use a lot more
> > smilies, Platypus.
>
>
> Well. I did see the smileys in your gas chamber
> remarks.
>
> As for your bullwhip fetish joke, I admit it went
> WAY over my head. Where it remains. But I know
> it ruins a joke when you explain it, so never
> mind.

Fair enough, Platypus.

I'm nowhere near as funny as I sometimes think I am...

Stay well!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Very interesting Irish perspective, Cathbad! Thanks!

My own background would nominally be from the Eastern Orthodox perspective. Among many of "old people", right straight off the boat in the early 1900s, my current perspective is that they were largely areligious, but from that part of the world you had to declare a religion in the same sense as wear a national uniform of sorts. Identification/mutual protection.

And I had a lot of confusion early on, because they used nationality and ethnicity (it slid around a lot) and religious affiliation interchangeably, so a person of precisely the same genetic background, and similar underlying cultural practices/values, but of a different religious affiliation, would be referred to by ethnicity/nationality, but not religion.

So that Muslims would be referred to as "Turks", even though they may not have had one drop of Turkish blood.

It is a hopelessly confused--and confusing--part of the world.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~