"It is a hopelessly confused--and confusing--part of the world."

I remember the Balkan conflict. There seemed to be about twenty different ethnic groups (e.g. Serbo-croats, Muslims, etc) in one big free for-all. I could never keep track of who was who, let alone who was fighting who.

Cathbad Wrote:
> ROFL. Well I don’t think they’d be selling
> scourges at the foot of Croagh Patrick!

My thoughts exactly.

> You’d
> have to go to a shop specialising in
> Ecclesiastical supplies -

I can't rule it out completely. But I am tempted to guess that you never actually visited an Irish Ecclesiastical supply shop in the 1970s and saw such a specialized item being sold. Feel free to tell me otherwise, and I'll happily take your word for it. The world, after all, is a big and varied place. But this does not sound like a normal or routine part of Irish religious culture.

> I’m guessing they were
> mostly used by priests, but an ordinary Catholic
> could buy one, if he or she was so inclined.

Sounds to me like "guessing" is the key word here.

> Nor
> am I saying it was common practice, but I remember
> seeing news clips of the devout ascending Croagh
> Patrick as a kid (an annual event) and there was
> always a few eejits busily flogging themselves. So
> we’re maybe talking the early seventies?

There are several videos on youtube of pilgrims climbing Croagh Patrick going back to the 70s, 60s, 50s and 40s. There's even a silent reel from 1921. In none of the videos, that I could find, is anyone seen self-flagellating. Most wore shoes. One video from the 60s shows two jovial burly Irishmen who decided to do it shirtless in the cold rain. So I guess they got flagellated by the raindrops???

They all seemed too busy watching their footing on the rocky climb to worry about irrelevant distractions.

One video from 1970 had a hostile tone and was throwing around the word "masochism" as it discussed the Croagh Patrick traditions. But no reports of self-flagellation; just accidental injuries due to the perils of the climb.

There's a recent video of a person who attempted the climb barefoot. He wasn't religious, just a guy doing it for a youtube video. It did not work out for him, as his feet were not conditioned for walking barefoot (as was, I suppose, once true for many of the poorer Irish whose parents could not afford new shoes every 6 months while they were growing). Afterwards, the skin peeled off the soles of his feet, he could not walk for some time, had to see a doctor, and he still had not fully recovered when he published the video 6 weeks later.

> The heyday of the Catholic Church in Ireland was
> relatively short-lived (although it’s still a
> force to be reckoned with) as its rise is very
> closely linked to Irish independence. I’d say
> from the Eucharistic Congress in ’32 up to
> Vatican II?

And by coming closely associated with the State, Catholicism also gets blamed for the inevitable corruption that always seems to infest State institutions, and always seem to require periodic reforms. But this does not seem to have much to do with folk religious traditions like the Croagh Patrick climb.

> Their handling of sexual abuse
> allegations was a major setback in terms of
> credibility.

Well, at least, from now on, when our children get abused, we can console ourselves that our children have not been abused by hypocrites.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 8 Mar 21 | 10:35AM by Platypus.

I do remember seeing people whipping themselves as they climbed Croagh Patrick on the news. It stuck in my mind because I was a kid and it seemed pretty weird. My memory is that the people were mostly elderly or maybe people with religious manias - ie, not representative of the Catholic faith per se. How accurate that memory might be is a moot point, but just because it isn’t on the internet doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

To put the scourges etc in context. I went to a secondary school where beatings and canings were pretty routine (corporal punishment wasn’t banned by the EU until 1979). You bought your copybooks, erasers etc at the school shop on the second floor, and up on the wall was a rack of canes of various shapes and sizes - bamboo, rattan etc - whatever the stern disclipinarian needed to put manners on an unruly class. I had a class member hospitalised due to the beating he received from a member of a religious order.

So the idea of a shop selling ecclesiastical supplies also stocking scourges isn’t really that unlikely. Or at least, it isn’t to me. Cruelty - more specifically fear - was a key component of Irish Catholic culture (if not - sadly - its defining feature); fear of exposure and disgrace for some sort of misdemeanour, fear of hell, fear of a beating etc. I have no particular beef with the Catholic church (people were complicit) but I have no illusions about it either.

Re ‘Folk Religious Traditions’ and ‘Religious traditions’ - there’s a difference? Just curious.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do remember seeing people whipping themselves as
> they climbed Croagh Patrick on the news. It stuck
> in my mind because I was a kid and it seemed
> pretty weird. My memory is that the people were
> mostly elderly or maybe people with religious
> manias - ie, not representative of the Catholic
> faith per se. How accurate that memory might be is
> a moot point, but just because it isn’t on the
> internet doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
>
> To put the scourges etc in context. I went to a
> secondary school where beatings and canings were
> pretty routine (corporal punishment wasn’t
> banned by the EU until 1979). You bought your
> copybooks, erasers etc at the school shop on the
> second floor, and up on the wall was a rack of
> canes of various shapes and sizes - bamboo, rattan
> etc - whatever the stern disclipinarian needed to
> put manners on an unruly class. I had a class
> member hospitalised due to the beating he received
> from a member of a religious order.
>
> So the idea of a shop selling ecclesiastical
> supplies also stocking scourges isn’t really
> that unlikely. Or at least, it isn’t to me.
> Cruelty - more specifically fear - was a key
> component of Irish Catholic culture (if not -
> sadly - its defining feature); fear of exposure
> and disgrace for some sort of misdemeanour, fear
> of hell, fear of a beating etc. I have no
> particular beef with the Catholic church (people
> were complicit) but I have no illusions about it
> either.

This would drive some to drink... ;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I still reckon it was in decline by then, Sawfish - it's telling that far more violence was perpetrated by the staff on the students than the students ever inflicted on one another! We just thought they were unhinged.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do remember seeing people whipping themselves as
> they climbed Croagh Patrick on the news. It stuck
> in my mind because I was a kid and it seemed
> pretty weird. My memory is that the people were
> mostly elderly or maybe people with religious
> manias - ie, not representative of the Catholic
> faith per se. How accurate that memory might be is
> a moot point, but just because it isn’t on the
> internet doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I suspect your memory is playing tricks on you. 50 years is a long time. Maybe what you saw was that dourly-intoned 1970s clip where the hostile Irish announcer calls it "masochistic" among other things. Then, as the decades passed, your imagination filled in the blanks of your fading memory. Such things happen.

But even if it did occur, it can hardly have been as routine as you suggested ("... there were always a few eejits ..."). Given the sheer number of video clips that exist of the Croagh Patrick tradition, there ought to be some video or documentary evidence of these ever-present eejits.

> To put the scourges etc in context. I went to a
> secondary school where beatings and canings were
> pretty routine (corporal punishment wasn’t
> banned by the EU until 1979).

I attended some primary school in Ireland in the early 70s, first in a modest town, and then in a more rural area. The only corporal punishment I recall, from the rural school, was the old trusty ruler on the palm. I think I was a victim of this, but I cannot for the life of me recall what I was being punished for. I don't think I ever knew. Oddly enough, I have a far more vivid memory of being given a time-out style punishment in the town school, and there, I actually remember what I was being punished for, because it was explained to me. I don't know if that illustrates the ineffectiveness of corporal punishment, or merely the importance of telling kids what they are being punished for.

> So the idea of a shop selling ecclesiastical
> supplies also stocking scourges isn’t really
> that unlikely. Or at least, it isn’t to me.

Sorry, but this sounds to me like guesswork, inspired by hostility.

In the early 70s, I had a number of vacations to a Cistercian Monastery, where my mother's brother was a monk and priest. Me and my brother got to stay in the monastery, while my mom and sisters had to stay in the guest house. Me and my brother loved it. The monastery was a beautiful place then, though it is now a shadow of what it was. There was a guest shop where a large variety of souvenirs and trinkets and religious items were sold. Many of these items were made by the monks themselves. I cannot remember any scourges.

Now, I can anticipate you saying "ROTFL, they would not sell it in the GUEST SHOP". But that only begs the question where they would sell it. 1970 is not so long ago, so no doubt if I am wrong, someone will shortly be able to produce some evidence of such items being sold in religious shops.

Seems to me, that if you were desperate to abuse yourself and wanted such an item, you would buy a dog whip or a horse lash from an animal handler, not in an Ecclesiastical Supply Store.

> Cruelty - more specifically fear - was a key
> component of Irish Catholic culture (if not -
> sadly - its defining feature); fear of exposure
> and disgrace for some sort of misdemeanour, fear
> of hell, fear of a beating etc. I have no
> particular beef with the Catholic church (people
> were complicit) but I have no illusions about it
> either.

Well ... if there was a false memory it is easy to see what inspired it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 Mar 21 | 06:49PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cathbad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do remember seeing people whipping themselves
> as
> > they climbed Croagh Patrick on the news. It
> stuck
> > in my mind because I was a kid and it seemed
> > pretty weird. My memory is that the people were
> > mostly elderly or maybe people with religious
> > manias - ie, not representative of the Catholic
> > faith per se. How accurate that memory might be
> is
> > a moot point, but just because it isn’t on
> the
> > internet doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
>
> I suspect your memory is playing tricks on you.
> 50 years is a long time. Maybe what you saw was
> that dourly-intoned 1970s clip where the hostile
> Irish announcer calls it "masochistic" among other
> things. Then, as the decades passed, your
> imagination filled in the blanks of your fading
> memory. Such things happen.
>
> But even if it did occur, it can hardly have been
> as routine as you suggested ("... there were
> always a few eejits ..."). Given the sheer number
> of video clips that exist of the Croagh Patrick
> tradition, there ought to be some video or
> documentary evidence of these ever-present
> eejits.
>
> > To put the scourges etc in context. I went to a
> > secondary school where beatings and canings
> were
> > pretty routine (corporal punishment wasn’t
> > banned by the EU until 1979).
>
> I attended some primary school in Ireland in the
> early 70s, first in a modest town, and then in a
> more rural area. The only corporal punishment I
> recall, from the rural school, was the old trusty
> ruler on the palm. I think I was a victim of
> this, but I cannot for the life of me recall what
> I was being punished for. I don't think I ever
> knew. Oddly enough, I have a far more vivid
> memory of being given a time-out style punishment
> in the town school, and there, I actually remember
> what I was being punished for, because it was
> explained to me. I don't know if that illustrates
> the ineffectiveness of corporal punishment, or
> merely the importance of telling kids what they
> are being punished for.
>
> > So the idea of a shop selling ecclesiastical
> > supplies also stocking scourges isn’t really
> > that unlikely. Or at least, it isn’t to me.
>
> Sorry, but this sounds to me like guesswork,
> inspired by hostility.
>
> In the early 70s, I had a number of vacations to a
> Cistercian Monastery, where my mother's brother
> was a monk and priest. Me and my brother got to
> stay in the monastery, while my mom and sisters
> had to stay in the guest house. Me and my brother
> loved it. The monastery was a beautiful place
> then, though it is now a shadow of what it was.

All Hallows?

Great story!!!

I've liked the experience of the narrative and the style with which it is related so well that I've read it maybe 5-10 times.

Memorable stuff...

> There was a guest shop where a large variety of
> souvenirs and trinkets and religious items were
> sold. Many of these items were made by the monks
> themselves. I cannot remember any scourges.
>
> Now, I can anticipate you saying "ROTFL, they
> would not sell it in the GUEST SHOP". But that
> only begs the question where they would sell it.
> 1970 is not so long ago, so no doubt if I am
> wrong, someone will shortly be able to produce
> some evidence of such items being sold in
> religious shops.
>
> Seems to me, that if you were desperate to abuse
> yourself and wanted such an item, you would buy a
> dog whip or a horse lash from an animal handler,
> not in an Ecclesiastical Supply Store.
>
> > Cruelty - more specifically fear - was a key
> > component of Irish Catholic culture (if not -
> > sadly - its defining feature); fear of exposure
> > and disgrace for some sort of misdemeanour,
> fear
> > of hell, fear of a beating etc. I have no
> > particular beef with the Catholic church
> (people
> > were complicit) but I have no illusions about
> it
> > either.
>
> Well ... if there was a false memory it is easy to
> see what inspired it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re ‘Folk Religious Traditions’ and
> ‘Religious traditions’ - there’s a
> difference? Just curious.

Well, some aspects of religion are more top-down, and other aspects of religion are more grass-roots. State sponsored religious schools are more top-down. But I would think that the Croagh Patrick pilgrimage is more of a grass-roots tradition - maybe not absolutely so, but relatively speaking. You seem to have a marked hostility to religion, which I suspect would predispose you to seeing it as all top-down, as well as being oppressive. I'm not looking for an argument, just explaining that I don't necessarily see it all that way, hence my choice of words.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cathbad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Re ‘Folk Religious Traditions’ and
> > ‘Religious traditions’ - there’s a
> > difference? Just curious.
>
> Well, some aspects of religion are more top-down,
> and other aspects of religion are more
> grass-roots. State sponsored religious schools
> are more top-down. But I would think that the
> Croagh Patrick pilgrimage is more of a grass-roots
> tradition - maybe not absolutely so, but
> relatively speaking. You seem to have a marked
> hostility to religion, which I suspect would
> predispose you to seeing it as all top-down, as
> well as being oppressive. I'm not looking for an
> argument, just explaining that I don't necessarily
> see it all that way, hence my choice of words.

Diverging a bit, how do you see my attitude on religion?

Thinking on it now, I believe that I am indifferent one way or the other. It's probably obvious that I view it as being related to any of a number of social phenomena, like the age of colonial expansion, the Enlightenment, pot-modernism, etc. Much longer lasting, but is seems like a social evolutionary artifact.

But I'll be the first to acknowledge that I really don't know, taking comfort in the fact that so far as I can see, no one else does, either.

I do feel that for the right sort of person, organized religion is a positive influence, and that informal individual spiritualism probably exists in most people, too.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

‘In the early 70s, I had a number of vacations to a Cistercian Monastery, where my mother's brother was a monk and priest. Me and my brother got to stay in the monastery, while my mom and sisters had to stay in the guest house. Me and my brother loved it. The monastery was a beautiful place then, though it is now a shadow of what it was. There was a guest shop where a large variety of souvenirs and trinkets and religious items were sold.’

My guess is that your memories of that period have - over time (and it was fifty years ago!) become bathed in a nostalgic glow that makes it hard for you to be objective. Don’t beat yourself up about this. It could happen to anybody. And I can just imagine the monastery: rolling, grassy green lawns, stately oaks, kindly men in cassocks etc. Maybe a peacock?

'I attended some primary school in Ireland in the early 70s, first in a modest town, and then in a more rural area. The only corporal punishment I recall, from the rural school, was the old trusty ruler on the palm. I think I was a victim of this, but I cannot for the life of me recall what I was being punished for. I don't think I ever knew. Oddly enough, I have a far more vivid memory of being given a time-out style punishment in the town school, and there, I actually remember what I was being punished for, because it was explained to me. I don't know if that illustrates the ineffectiveness of corporal punishment, or merely the importance of telling kids what they are being punished for.'

I think - more importantly - it again indicates the ineffectiveness of memory (something you yourself have commented on several times). Again, my suspicion is that time and perhaps distance have burnished away the more unpleasant aspects of growing up in Ireland in the Seventies, leaving a rose-tinted Neverland of gentle showers, the soft lowing of cattle at milking time, the odd slap on the wrist etc, etc. There does seem to some evidence online that the reality was rather different. Or at least, that some people had a rather different experience of the era.

This isn’t to discount your observations: life experiences (and one’s memory of them) will always be subjective. No doubt some priests were indeed good and devout men, only trying to do their best.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My guess is that your memories of that period have
> - over time (and it was fifty years ago!) become
> bathed in a nostalgic glow that makes it hard for
> you to be objective. Don’t beat yourself up
> about this. It could happen to anybody. And I can
> just imagine the monastery: rolling, grassy green
> lawns, stately oaks, kindly men in cassocks etc.
> Maybe a peacock?

I'm getting a vibe of bitterness and sarcasm. But no. No peacock.

> I think - more importantly - it again indicates
> the ineffectiveness of memory (something you
> yourself have commented on several times).

Sure. The thought even crossed my mind that my memory of being slapped with a ruler at the rural school was a false memory, occasioned by some empathy for some other student. The memory really is that vague. But I really do think I was slapped, and had no idea why. We did not stay long in that rural school, because my mother pulled us out, to teach us at home. She was not impressed with them, for whatever reason.

> Again,
> my suspicion is that time and perhaps distance
> have burnished away the more unpleasant aspects of
> growing up in Ireland in the Seventies, leaving a
> rose-tinted Neverland of gentle showers, the soft
> lowing of cattle at milking time, the odd slap on
> the wrist etc, etc. There does seem to some
> evidence online that the reality was rather
> different.

Umm. I'm actually pretty confident about the gentle showers and the lowing of cattle, among many other things. Though I never mentioned them. Nor did I make any claim about a rose-tinted neverland. I think you've gone rather off point, as if you feel offended that I had any pleasant memories at all.

> Or at least, that some people had a
> rather different experience of the era.

We all had different childhoods. I'm sorry if yours was unhappy. Is that what this is about?

> This isn’t to discount your observations: life
> experiences (and one’s memory of them) will
> always be subjective. No doubt some priests were
> indeed good and devout men, only trying to do
> their best.

You know, it might be more to the point if you point me to some video or documentary evidence of the scourges then being sold at Irish religious shops; or of the eejits scourging themselves at Croagh Patrick. Because at this point, it does not seem like either of us has been to Croagh Patrick; or that either of us ever saw a scourge being sold in a religious shop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 9 Mar 21 | 09:47AM by Platypus.

‘I'm getting a vibe of bitterness and sarcasm. But no. No peacock.’

I’m simply adopting your rules of engagement, Platypus. Bitterness and sarcasm, eh? The rage of Caliban at seeing his reflection in the mirror perhaps?

‘Nor did I make any claim about a rose-tinted neverland. I think you've gone rather off point, as if you feel offended that I had any pleasant memories at all.’

Why on earth would I be offended by your memories, good or bad? The past is what we choose to make of it - you as much as I.

'We all had different childhoods. I'm sorry if yours was unhappy. Is that what this is about?'

My childhood was far from unhappy. I never even got beaten up by a priest (although I saw plenty of people who were). In fact, I grew up in a liberal, atheistic household and only became aware of the role religion played in Irish life comparatively late (ie, in secondary school). I wasn’t traumatised by the experience - it was a bit like stepping out of a Tardis and into some parallel universe. I’m not sure if I took anything away from it at all, tbh. When I say the church ruled through fear, this is largely speculation - I meant in its heyday (maybe the Fifties). Nobody I knew took it very seriously, although there was a consensus that the religious order which ran the school was profoundly dysfunctional. Make of that what you will.

‘You know, it might be more to the point if you point me to some video or documentary evidence of the scourges then being sold at Irish religious shops; or of the eejits scourging themselves at Croagh Patrick. Because at this point, it does not seem like either of us has been to Croagh Patrick; or that either of us ever saw a scourge being sold in a religious shop.’

So you’d like me to source and provide you with evidence establishing the whereabouts of a shop selling ecclesiastical supplies in Dublin in the early Seventies. Crucially, you’d like an inventory of its contents. And maybe live footage (or perhaps a photograph) of somebody flagellating themselves on Croagh Patrick during the same period. Do these seem like realistic expectations to you?

On second thoughts, don’t bother answering that question. You have - how shall I say it? - a somewhat overly optimistic idea of the internet’s capabilities (marvellous and all as it is).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 9 Mar 21 | 10:23AM by Cathbad.

I’m sure you’re drafting a considered response, Platypus. I haven’t got all day. Anyhoo, I’m already bored (my interest in the Catholic Church is pretty limited, believe it or not).

The subtext here is that you’ve a zero tolerance attitude towards any discussions on this forum that are disrespectful of religion. First you go for laboured sarcasm. Then you get personal. Maybe you just need to lighten up a bit? Or at very least, ignore posts that you might otherwise find offensive? Either way, I’m done.

Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m simply adopting your rules of engagement,
> Platypus.

So you're mad at me for being uncertain that your 50-year old childhood memory of a clip you saw an the telly is an accurate reflection of what actually went on at Croagh Patrick? And you decided to get revenge on my by doubting my childhood memories?

I'm sorry, but that does not make much sense to me.

Please take a step back and understand that I'm really not trying to attack you. Rather I am genuinely interested in what took place on Croagh Patrick.

I was going to give you a link to the 1970s video I found, and ask you if this could possibly be the basis of your memory.
Despite the absence of flagellating eejits, it seemed to me that its dire language and dire music and dire tone could easily have inspired your memory. The pilgrims are not flagellating themselves but the narrator sure talks as if they were. Had you said this might have been the clip you remember, then the problem would be solved, and I would not have to keep looking for this clip you remember.

But it seems you're too angry to consider the question objectively, so maybe I'll hold off.

> And maybe live footage (or perhaps a photograph)
> of somebody flagellating themselves on Croagh
> Patrick during the same period. Do these seem
> like realistic expectations to you?

Well, there is quite a bit of footage out there of the pilgrims. And, if the eejits were really caught on film and broadcast all over Ireland, then chances are you are not the only person who remembers them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 9 Mar 21 | 01:30PM by Platypus.