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Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 12:29PM
I love dogs. By all means, I like cats too, although I don't have much experience with them.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 12:36PM
Good Grief! I would never throw stones at barking dogs. What kind of barbaric behavior is that?! That sounds more like something you'd see in the Middle East.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 01:55PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love dogs. By all means, I like cats too,
> although I don't have much experience with them.


As regards cats, my daughter when about 3 years old summed it up nicely:

"Cats don't care. They just don't care."

If you understand them in that context they are a lot of fun.

I wouldn't expect a lot more from them in that respect, however.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 02:11PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good Grief! I would never throw stones at barking
> dogs. What kind of barbaric behavior is that?!
> That sounds more like something you'd see in the
> Middle East.


I must be getting senile...

You're not the same Knygatin who speaks avidly of martial cane twirling, are you?

:^)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 03:56PM
I might have given the impression that I have more troubles with dogs than I do. Dogs give me almost no trouble. Curs, now, they're a different matter.

No, really.

No bears around here, alas!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 05:22PM
I’ve never thrown a stone at a dog, and hope I never have to! That said, an aggressive dog will generally turn tail and run if you stoop down. I guess that means somebody must throw stones at them occasionally?

Re cats. I remember doing a first aid course years ago. The instructor also drove an ambulance. Occasionally some elderly person would die of natural causes at home and they’d be first on the scene. If the body had been there a while and the deceased was a dog owner, the body was untouched. If the deceased was a cat-owner? Specifically a person who owned a large number of cats? Well, let’s just say there was rarely enough left over to fill a bodybag.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 06:51PM
They don't care, they just don't care... :^)

I've always had dogs and/or cats. Mostly cats for a while because I have lived in cities for quite a while, and I like larger dogs, so...

They are quite different, as you suggest, and if you like them, it's for separate reasons.

Dogs are a lot like Rousseau's noble savage; many are unbelievably loyal. Very many will commit and go to the wall with you, as need be.

The actual central attraction of cats--the one that makes them the most popular small mammal pet--is that they are *seductive* in a sensuous, vicarious way. Not sexual--so no jokes now!--but here is a truly beautiful small, finely featured animal, physically phenomenally graceful. You never tire of just looking at them--and if you've had a girlfriend or wife like that, you'll understand what I mean. From every angle they are a treat to behold--eye candy, for sure. And it never stops, never gets old.

They seem to show affection (I'm talking about the cats again, let's make it clear), but it's very shallow in almost all cases. They can be quite indifferent, but contrast this to dogs--an indifferent dog is almost a oxymoron, in my opinion.

Many of them--in my limited experience, most--seem to prefer to be around women. Make of it what you will.

I'd like to have both dogs and cats again. For the last few years, it's been cats.

Maybe the best comic--but accurate!--sense of the human-animal relationship comes from the following witticism:

Dog/human, as seen by dog: "He feeds me. He must be God."

Cat/human, as seen by cat: "He feeds me. I must be God."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 07:56PM
I’ve always had both. I’ve never had a small dog, but I think some of them do have big personalities? Like Jack Russells? Currently I have a lurcher and three cats. Like you say, every so often you have this epiphany; here’s this creature that can survive just as well in wild (although this might not be as true in the US) as it can outdoors, but which is also quite happy to clamber up onto your lap, if only to benefit from your body heat. Also the only real difference between a tiger and a cat is size. Cats move in the same economic way. Like a lot of predators they’re patient and they’re slow until they have to be fast. The downside is the bird kill, most of which ends up under my bed.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 08:16PM
Yeah, and here's a revelation: I had always thought that cats (we have three male siblings) were used to rid human habitation of rats.

However, it appears that the reverse is equally true. The cats bring live rats (*rats*, not mice--they bring those, too, but...) into our formerly rodent-free house, unless you are very careful. There was one instance where a rat that one of them brought in escaped, and nimby evaded capture for 4 days, hiding under heavy furniture (piano, bookshelves, etc) until one morning I awoke to find his dismembered remains on the dining room floor.

Jack the Ripper would be a good name for a cat, I think.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 08:37PM
Nice! We moved up into the hills and our cat (who wasn't mad about the move anyway) died of old age. Within a week there were mice everywhere. Plus rats squabbling up in the attic. So we needed cats, for sure. That said, I do think they bring plenty of vermin in with them and often don't bother killing it or - like you say - the rat/mouse gets away and ends up hiding in your shoe or a pair of discarded trousers, which can be pretty unpleasant when you get up in the morning.....

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2021 08:48PM
Good observation!

I think the cats kill some and scare the bejeezus out of the rest so that they stay well away from where the cats live, unless brought back in as hostages.

When lived on the central coast of CA I used to have large mixed breed dogs, whom I liked a lot, too. They liked riding in my pickup, etc.

But not eye candy, that's for sure!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 30 January, 2021 12:24PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Good Grief! I would never throw stones at
> barking
> > dogs. What kind of barbaric behavior is that?!
> > That sounds more like something you'd see in
> the
> > Middle East.
>
>
> I must be getting senile...
>
> You're not the same Knygatin who speaks avidly of
> martial cane twirling, are you?
>
> :^)

I guess we could say that bipeds are the only ones I mistrust. The other species are more predictable and innocent. Bipeds, of bad conditioning and background, tend to be calculating, false, hypocritical, neurotic, confused, mean and dangerous; the only species that has actively, calculated through the large brain, turned away from God and Nature, and entered darkness. To lesser or greater degree. A misfit, quite tiresome to deal with. Basically misled from early age through culturally enforced conventions and bad genetic heritage. Many have an ongoing existential struggle to get back to Truth, meanwhile being socially unpredictable. Not all. Not the few enlightened. Simply put, I don't feel safe walking around in big cities and decadent societies.

If I were to meet a dangerous dog (a barking dog is not the same as dangerous) attacking me, I would of course defend myself. But it would be highly unpleasant. A biped criminal threatening me, on the other hand, I would gladly give a good bashing.



Thank you Cathbad and Sawfish for your interesting observations of cats and dogs. I really enjoyed that. I am sure you know of Lovecraft's interesting essay "Cats and Dogs" (which can be found online). He favored cats, and I am sure he experienced their sensous seductive beauty in the way Sawfish describes above, but used other words, seeing cats as very high standing, dignified, and aristocratic. Fritz Leiber was also obsessed with cats, and they frequently appear in his writings.

I am afraid I cannot add much to these observations, I have related to animals subconsciously and intuitively, without thinking much about it. I simply enjoy the company of dogs. The only thing I am aware of, is that you must be perceptive in the present and true to yourself and the dog. Like with humans. Giving and receiving.
Dogs are goofy, and I like that. They make us laugh. They teach us to be joyful. They never hold a gripe, always trying to please and cheer things up. Always generous. They guard our home, and help us in the hunt. They are at the same time completely dependent upon us. That is why I find it heartbreaking if people are cruel to them, like being cruel to children. Same with all other pets.
Now, dogs which are indifferent, are so because they have been seriously mistreated when raised. Dogs are social beings, they are not meant to be chained and isolated outside in a yard.

Being a pleaser, co-dependent, a dog-person, I have sometimes been attracted to anti-dependent cat-women (we tend to look for qualities we miss in ourselves), and cat-men in terms of friendship, and have learned my painful lessons (and true completion can only come from within). Anyhow, from an aesthetic perspective, I prefer cute dog-girls to beautiful cat-girls. Although it is not always quite that simple. People can be a little bit of both.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 30 January, 2021 01:16PM
Excellent post, K.

Interleaved, below:

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Good Grief! I would never throw stones at
> > barking
> > > dogs. What kind of barbaric behavior is
> that?!
> > > That sounds more like something you'd see in
> > the
> > > Middle East.
> >
> >
> > I must be getting senile...
> >
> > You're not the same Knygatin who speaks avidly
> of
> > martial cane twirling, are you?
> >
> > :^)
>
> I guess we could say that bipeds are the only ones
> I mistrust. The other species are more predictable
> and innocent. Bipeds, of bad conditioning and
> background, tend to be calculating, false,
> hypocritical, neurotic, confused, mean and
> dangerous; the only species that has actively,
> calculated through the large brain, turned away
> from God and Nature, and entered darkness. To
> lesser or greater degree. A misfit, quite tiresome
> to deal with. Basically misled from early age
> through culturally enforced conventions and bad
> genetic heritage. Many have an ongoing existential
> struggle to get back to Truth, meanwhile being
> socially unpredictable. Not all. Not the few
> enlightened. Simply put, I don't feel safe walking
> around in big cities and decadent societies.

Yes, same here.

For what it's worth (probably nothing), I think a lot of what you observe--correctly, in my opinion--about humans also applies to primates in general. I think it's just a nasty, highly opportunistic branch of the animal kingdom, and maybe I've shared this with you, but...

About 40 years ago, watching a Jane Goodall documentary on chimps for the nth time, it stuck me like a thunderbolt: all I will ever need to know about humans I can learn from a Goodall documentary, and extrapolate for intellectual sophistication.

So humans share all the same negative traits as the hyper-social ape species--chimps, baboons, etc.--but are simply better at it than the apes.

I'll go on record with that one, too.


>
> If I were to meet a dangerous dog (a barking dog
> is not the same as dangerous) attacking me, I
> would of course defend myself. But it would be
> highly unpleasant. A biped criminal threatening
> me, on the other hand, I would gladly give a good
> bashing.

Yes, me too.

>
>
>
> Thank you Cathbad and Sawfish for your interesting
> observations of cats and dogs. I really enjoyed
> that. I am sure you know of Lovecraft's
> interesting essay "Cats and Dogs" (which can be
> found online). He favored cats, and I am sure he
> experienced their sensous seductive beauty in the
> way Sawfish describes above, but used other words,
> seeing cats as very high standing, dignified, and
> aristocratic. Fritz Leiber was also obsessed with
> cats, and they frequently appear in his writings.
>
> I am afraid I cannot add much to these
> observations, I have related to animals
> subconsciously and intuitively, without thinking
> much about it. I simply enjoy the company of dogs.
> The only thing I am aware of, is that you must be
> perceptive in the present and true to yourself and
> the dog. Like with humans. Giving and receiving.
> Dogs are goofy, and I like that. They make us
> laugh. They teach us to be joyful. They never hold
> a gripe, always trying to please and cheer things
> up. Always generous. They guard our home, and help
> us in the hunt. They are at the same time
> completely dependent upon us. That is why I find
> it heartbreaking if people are cruel to them, like
> being cruel to children. Same with all other pets.

Yes, there's no excuse for this that I'd accept. What are offered as exculpatory "reasons" sound to me like excuses.

When I retired, and afterward when I got bored, I thought about some kind of "public service"-oriented volunteerism, and you know what? The ***ONLY*** thing that had any appeal, at all, was to volunteer at an animal shelter of some kind.

As my mobility decreased rapidly, this never came to pass, but oh, well!

>
> Now, dogs which are indifferent, are so because
> they have been seriously mistreated when raised.
> Dogs are social beings, they are not meant to be
> chained and isolated outside in a yard.

Nah. This is why I go with cats at present. I can't stand to see dogs in quarters that are too close for them. They don't actually complain, but when I take them out and I see what they do, I know, for sure, that they need sufficient space.

The cats I always let roam freely. They are sort of the OG bad-asses of the domesticated animal world. Kill-or-be-killed types, at the core. E.g., when they first step outside, they sorta look around, casing the situation, like George Raft in the old gangster movies.

And in an odd sense, it is spiritually liberating to consider that right now, your cat, who is indoors to provide you with opportunities for worship (as they see it), could, if they wanted, be outside roving. They are here because at this moment they *want* to be.

Now, it's likely because of a comfortable sofa, and not the pleasure of your company, but still...

>
> Being a pleaser, co-dependent, a dog-person, I
> have sometimes been attracted to anti-dependent
> cat-women (we tend to look for qualities we miss
> in ourselves), and cat-men in terms of friendship,
> and have learned my painful lessons (and true
> completion can only come from within). Anyhow,
> from an aesthetic perspective, I prefer cute
> dog-girls to beautiful cat-girls. Although it is
> not always quite that simple. People can be a
> little bit of both.

Hah! Interesting observation about women. I can *see* it, too....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 30 January, 2021 02:53PM
I wonder if there'd be interest in a discussion of our spending on books. You might know Orwell's essay "Books vs. Cigarettes."

[www.orwellfoundation.com]

I began to record cost of each book I bought in May 1986. Oddly, it seems it never occurred to me to do anything much with those data till this month.

Today I calculated that, for the most recent 26 years of my fulltime employment -- I am retired now -- I spent 2.5% of my average annual salary (before deductions for taxes, contributions, etc.) on books.

Even though many of those books ended up being ones I would give away (sometimes unread, sometimes having read them), they have been a remarkably economical expenditure given their importance for my spiritual, intellectual, imaginative, professional, familial, social, and recreational life and activities. I'm thankful for them.

For one perspective, even at my most lavish, I never came within several hundred dollars of what a pack-a-day smoker spends on cigarettes if I figure $5.36 per pack (North Dakota 2020 average price) or $1,956 a year.

If you've never read that Orwell essay, you might take a look at it -- it's fun to take that angle on book-buying.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 30 January, 2021 05:21PM
I'm a super tightwad and for years bought only the cheapest used versions of books I could find, or used the public library, and later Project Gutenberg.

I usually asked for books for Xmas or my birthday.

So no real record for me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish

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