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Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 11:35PM
A thread dedicated to any folklore you'd like to share and discuss. I figured since weird authors were generally well-read in legendry and folklore, then this thread could be of interest here. After all, CAS mentioned all kinds of obscure traditions from the real world, such as geases, Antillia, and an impressive list of mythical creatures from this Oct. 1933 letter to HPL:

Quote:
Clark Ashton Smith
If I were a practising wizard, like Namirrha or Malygris or Nathaire, I'd devise a behemothian Sending and dispatch it to his office. The Sending would include a brace of penanggalans, and about a dozen rokurokubis with jaws elastic as their necks, and a regiment of poltergeists equipped with sledge-hammers. Callicantzaris and vrykolakes and barguests and Himalayan Snow-Men and Eskimo tupileks and the more unpleasant Aztec gods would form the main body; and a mass formation of shoggoths would bring up the rearguard.

Given the number of active members here, I won't insist on any rules. Simply share and discuss what you will, if you think it would be interesting!

I was inspired to start this thread because of Dale Nelson's mention of Lafcadio Hearn, so I thought it might be interesting to share a website dedicated to Japanese legendary creatures. No need to make this thread all about them, just consider it a weird treat! Japan's folk beliefs are so wild, rich, and bizarre that I'm sure CAS would have enjoyed them, and agreed that Tsathoggua and Atlach-Nacha could find a comfortable home in the countryside (accompanied by those rokurokubis he mentioned in the above quote, also from Japanese lore!).

[yokai.com]

Here's the website. Have fun going through the list, or clicking the "random yokai" option. You can expect to find things like colossal skeletons made out of regular-sized skeletons, or poorly maintained Buddha statues that become impish little creatures.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 28 Aug 20 | 11:42PM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 09:49AM
This is great!

I'm going to pass the link to my wife and daughter. My daughter, especially, really likes this sort of stuff.

Thanks, Hespire!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 10:48AM
Thank you, Hespire. This thread should be an interesting place to visit for years to come.

Would anyone (other than me) like to tell about how you became interested in folktales, what you've read and the books you've collected and so on?

One of many things for which I am thankful is that I got on to folktales while I was still a youngster. This happened, especially, as I browsed the shelves of the children's section of the Coos Bay, Oregon, public library in the second half of the 1960s. I took particularly to Northern European tales. One of the great books of my life is the 1960 Viking Press book Norwegian Folk Tales "from the collection of Peter Christian Asbjornsen and Jorgen Moe," and illustrated with drawings by Erik Werenskiold and Theodor Kittelsen. The latter artist, by the way, is my all-time favorite artist of the macabre. His sequence of pictures of the Black Death as a crone is memorable. It's probably a good thing that his most macabre work is not found in the Viking Press book I am recommending, and which was such a beloved library book of my boyhood. Later, it was issued in paperback in the Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore Library.

That book gave me “Soria Moria Castle,” “The Three Princesses in the Mountain-in-the-Blue,” “The Golden Castle That Hung in the Air,” “The Twelve Wild Ducks,” “The Golden Bird” – wonder-tales much to my taste. There were also humorous stories that I appreciated more later on, such as “‘Good Day, fellow!’ ‘Axe-Handle!’” The pictures of trolls, as for “The Boys Who Met the Trolls in the Hedal Woods,” caught these creatures’ combination of large size, earthiness, formidable strength, stupidity, and malice. ....Where Tolkien wrote that, as a boy, he desired dragons with a fierce desire, I desired trolls.

Years later, as a high school teacher in Seaside, Oregon, a colleague and I drove up to Astoria and visited Parnassus Books -- December 1978. This was my first encounter, as far as I remember, with the University of Chicago's Folktales of the World series. I bought Folktales of Norway, edited by Reidar Christiansen. I loaned that copy and it wasn't returned, but replaced it long ago.

A third early folktale acquisition was Jacqueline Simpson's Icelandic Folktales and Legends, which I bought on 19 Jan. 1980 at Powell's wonderful bookstore in downtown Portland -- I'm glad to say that the rioters seem to be leaving it, at least, alone.

And, for the fourth book I will mention in this posting, on 26 July 1989 I bought Dr. Simpson's Scandinavian Folktales at Borene Books in Willmar, Minnesota.

I recommend all of these books. To underscore my love of them, I will confess that, if I had to cut my present library of some 4000 books down to 200, I expect that all four of these books would make the cut.

That's a reflection of my love. It's not to say that, if your passion is for CAS, these would be the folktales you would like more than any others. That's probably not true. The Norwegian tales are redolent of forest and mountain, of peasants and an appreciation of the mother wit that gets someone out of a scrape. My sense is that Smith's taste was more for the elegant, the bizarre, the perfumed, the bejewelled, and perhaps the folktales from Persia and the Arabian peninsula would supply them. I'm frankly not much acquainted with those, although I note that the Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore library includes a volume. But I'm not sure that those are the qualities one would actually find in the authentic Arab folktales. Does someone know more about them?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29 Aug 20 | 10:52AM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: charaina (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 11:24AM
Are there a lot of references to things like monsters, weird dreams, etc. and the like in Lovecraft’s letters with folks like CAS, Wandrei, etc.?

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 11:38AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Norwegian tales
> are redolent of forest and mountain, of peasants
> and an appreciation of the mother wit that gets
> someone out of a scrape. My sense is that Smith's
> taste was more for the elegant, the bizarre, the
> perfumed, the bejewelled, and perhaps the
> folktales from Persia and the Arabian peninsula
> would supply them.

Smith read widely. He was much influenced by H. C. Andersen's fairy tales.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 11:39AM
Gosh, Kittelsen is really *something*, isn't he?

I did "KIttelsen" in Google images and what a treat!

Thanks, Dale.

BTW, I live in PDX, I'm sure we discussed this before. It's not the same as it was only 4 years ago, and I hope it can come back, but it's more than merely COVID ("merely"!) that has affected its tenor and outlook. Everyone here *must* choose a side, there is only *one* right answer to any question, and to me, this is just plain ugly. I've never yet belonged to a "side" and I'm too old to change this now.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 11:44AM
Sawfish, you must be speaking for a lot of "invisible" people in Portland. I hope you all will be able to make some good changes for your city come about when it's time to evaluate the people in charge now.

But, yeah, isn't Kittelsen amazing? Whew. Macabre, but not nauseating.

His feeling for the macabre and the weird seem to me to come out of deep, deep roots in the Norwegian countryside and folk world. If you can, take a look at that edition of Norwegian Folk Tales.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 12:21PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish, you must be speaking for a lot of
> "invisible" people in Portland. I hope you all
> will be able to make some good changes for your
> city come about when it's time to evaluate the
> people in charge now.
>
> But, yeah, isn't Kittelsen amazing? Whew.
> Macabre, but not nauseating.
>

To me, the best of his stuff I've seen just now is strangely subtle... Like "Black Death"...

[www.alamy.com]

You look at it, and at first don't know what, exactly, to make of it.

Then you see the raven zooming in, and you know...

And then you think: "Wow. That could have actually happened many times, during the plague times...".

A lot of them are a bit over-drawn--too directly suggestive--for my taste, what with looming, glowing eyes, but then you see this one:

[www.artnet.com]

...and this one conveys a situation about as hopeless as it can get.

I also saw some of the others that must have been related to the Black Death theme, and they, too, are really haunting.


> His feeling for the macabre and the weird seem to
> me to come out of deep, deep roots in the
> Norwegian countryside and folk world. If you can,
> take a look at that edition of Norwegian Folk
> Tales.

So much stuff, too!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 12:59PM
In case anyone would like a little help with the question "What's out there?" -- here are a couple of folktale series.

(A) Folktales of the World, published by the University of Chicago Press

1.Germany
2.China
3.England
4.Ireland
5.Norway (Ian Myles Slater's review at Amazon says it was #5)
6.Hungary
7.Japan
8.Israel
9.Mexico
10.Greece

There certainly were releases in the Folktales of the World series for Chile (hardcover only?), Egypt (released in paperback, but perhaps not numbered), France (possibly only in hardcover), and India (this was released in paperback, but perhaps not numbered). That makes 14 volumes. There was also Folktales Told Around the World.

In Folktales Told Around the World, Richard Dorson mentioned Folktales of the West Indies as another projected volume. It seems volumes for Switzerland, Scotland, Southern Africa, Turkey, and the Philippines were projected but were not published. The Told Around volume thus presents quite a lot of material that ended up not being published in the series because (apparently) it ended after 15 volumes.

(B) The Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore Library contained the following 20 books and a very few more. Information is transcribed from a list that I photocopied from somewhere.

African Folktales (Abrahams)

Afro-American Folktales (Abrahams)

American Indian Myths and Legends (Erdoes and Ortiz)

Arab Folktales (Bushnaq)

Chinese Fairy Tales and Fantasies (Roberts)

Complete Grimm’s Fairy Tales

Eighty Fairy Tales (Hans Christian Andersen)

An Encyclopedia of Fairies (Briggs)

Favorite Folktales from Around the World (Yolen)

Folktales from India (Ramanujan)

French Folktales (Pourrat)

Gods and Heroes (Greek mythology, Schwab)

Irish Folktales (Glassie)

Norse Myths (Crossley-Holland)

Northern Tales (Eskimo, etc., Norman)

Norwegian Folk Tales (Asbjørnsen and Moe)

Russian Fairy Tales (Afanas’ev)

Victorian Fairy Tale Book (Hearn)

Yiddish Folktales (Weinreich)


Of course, there's no reason to limit oneself to books in a series, nor will most people want to "collect 'em all" in a series -- I sure haven't. But what I've seen of these books leads me to speak well of them as fare for grownups.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 01:05PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Norwegian Folk Tales "from the collection of Peter Christian
> Asbjornsen and Jorgen Moe," and illustrated with
> drawings by Erik Werenskiold and Theodor
> Kittelsen.
>
> ....Where Tolkien wrote
> that, as a boy, he desired dragons with a fierce
> desire, I desired trolls.
>


John Bauer was another children's book illustrator who liked trolls.

Brother Martin

If someone else cries ...

Troll lunch

Mother-love

Troll at the door

Humpe

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 01:05PM
Now, to come back to the focus on weird folktales -- what about getting down to cases?

I'll recommend a few particular ones.

"Mujina" by Lafcadio Hearn in Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things from Japan.

[www.trussel.com]

"Yallery Brown" by Joseph Jacobs from More English Fairy Tales (this is like something out of M. R. James)

[en.wikisource.org]

"Trunt, Trunt, and the Trolls in the Fells/Mountains" from Iceland (I have this in one of Dr. Simpson's books)

[52books.blogspot.com]

That last one reminds me rather a lot of Blackwood's "Wendigo" -- do you agree?

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 01:24PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ... isn't Kittelsen amazing? Whew.
> Macabre, but not nauseating.
>
> His feeling for the macabre and the weird seem to
> me to come out of deep, deep roots in the
> Norwegian countryside and folk world.


He is great. My guess is that he must have witnessed some gravely miserable situations in real life.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 01:36PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > ... isn't Kittelsen amazing? Whew.
> > Macabre, but not nauseating.
> >
> > His feeling for the macabre and the weird seem
> to
> > me to come out of deep, deep roots in the
> > Norwegian countryside and folk world.
>
>
> He is great. My guess is that he must have
> witnessed some gravely miserable situations in
> real life.

Hah! Yes!

Goya-like...

Good discussion; I am enjoying this a lot...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 02:07PM
Quote:
Sawfish
I'm going to pass the link to my wife and daughter. My daughter, especially, really likes this sort of stuff.
Thanks, Hespire!

I thought you and your family might find it interesting. Have fun! Using the "random yokai" option, I discovered several things even I never knew, like a shadowy black monk that crawls into your home to steal your breath in your sleep, and a large crustacean with an ape's face that only leaves the ocean at night, and the various histories of foxes that disguise themselves as humans!

Quote:
charaina
Are there a lot of references to things like monsters, weird dreams, etc. and the like in Lovecraft’s letters with folks like CAS, Wandrei, etc.?

Plenty. That "behemothian Sending" I quoted is perhaps the most impressive, with its mention of Indonesian, Inuit, and English monsters. Lovecraft and his friends had a lot of enthusiasm for myths and folk beliefs, and often referenced them casually in their letters. I recall HPL and CAS mentioning Persian mythical traditions (such as Rustam, Simorgh, the Shahnameh, etc.) in relation to their orientalist friend Hoffmann Price. And in one letter exchange HPL and Robert Barlow discussed the linguistic and cultural history of Satyrs. Robert E. Howard shared quite a few things with HPL out of Voodoo folklore and Texan ghost stories, some of which would later be integrated into his horror and adventure stories. And of course HPL and CAS got a kick out of referencing their own alien mythologies.

Quote:
Dale Nelson
Would anyone (other than me) like to tell about how you became interested in folktales, what you've read and the books you've collected and so on?

An excellent place to start, Dale, and a fascinating history you've shared! Like you, my enthusiasm began in my early childhood. I was too different from the other kids to make friends with them easily, so books took up some of my time, especially my school's books on Greek myths, which excited me as a fan of Ray Harryhausen's films Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans, but I also got to read the myths of Aztec, Inca, Hindu, and other traditions. My interest in these subjects never waned, though as I grew older and found history and anthropology more interesting, I started delving even deeper into the cultural development of myths, and found myself identifying with these lost times and distant countries more deeply. They gave me a feeling of belonging, mysticism, and nature's splendor in a highly urbanized area I didn't like.

Your passions and cultural preferences are fascinating, and it goes to show how unimaginably huge the world of folk beliefs really is. I like to learn all I can about different traditions (which admittedly does not make me an expert in any of them), but as I grow older I find myself becoming most interested in the traditions of northern cultures, such as the Inuit, Icelandic, and Finnish people (the Finns had their own myths! They did not worship Thor or Odin!). The quiet, snowy, wooded North suits my personality well. And I also find myself increasingly drawn to Japan, my mother's homeland. Japanese stories are so utterly strange, so unbelievably imaginative, compared to most traditions I've explored, but with a sense that all these surreal things are simply a normal part of life.

I'm a bit swamped at the moment, but I will give Kittelsen a try and comment on it later! I'm also interested in checking out the books and stories you listed.

Quote:
Dale Nelson
It's not to say that, if your passion is for CAS, these would be the folktales you would like more than any others. That's probably not true. The Norwegian tales are redolent of forest and mountain, of peasants and an appreciation of the mother wit that gets someone out of a scrape. My sense is that Smith's taste was more for the elegant, the bizarre, the perfumed, the bejewelled, and perhaps the folktales from Persia and the Arabian peninsula would supply them. I'm frankly not much acquainted with those, although I note that the Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore library includes a volume. But I'm not sure that those are the qualities one would actually find in the authentic Arab folktales. Does someone know more about them?

CAS is one of my favorite authors ever, but I appreciate myths and folk beliefs from all around the world, especially the North, which is quite different from most of what CAS wrote! Even his stories of Hyperborea, which take place in prehistoric Greenland, have more in common with the Arabian Nights and Medieval European adventures than with the Eskimos or Vikings. As a bit of a writer myself, I wish to express some of the vivid weirdness CAS impressed in me while embracing a more earthy, folksy feel. I think this is more than possible, and I think Japanese traditions come relatively close to that feeling. Ancient and Medieval Japan had such bizarre monsters, weird supernatural ideas, an appreciation for beauty and ephemerality, and a good sense of humor, all qualities of CAS' best stories, but with the simpler perspective of farmers, fishers, etc.

Regarding Arab folklore, my early days as an HPL fan drove me to read as much of the Arabian Nights as I could, and I can confirm that CAS' fiction has a lot in common with it. In the 1001 Nights you'll find stories of foolish or adventurous royals, horrific deaths, ancient riches, ruined cities of mystic grandeur (including one in which the dead are posed as they were in life, a very Zothique-y idea, yes?), and the hidden worlds of entities far older than humanity. The influence is definitely there, and CAS even mentions things like afrits, jinns, and the Roc and Simorgh in some of his work. That's not to say they're exactly the same, of course, and I know very little of Arab traditions beyond the 1001 Nights and some Islamic beliefs.

Lafcadio Hearn was an author CAS admired greatly, and while I'm not sure how much CAS knew about Japan, he certainly knew some things, and I can see a subtle influence from Hearn's books in his writing.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 29 Aug 20 | 02:49PM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 08:57PM
I've mentioned Jacqueline Simpson as editor of a couple of folktale collections. A third worth your attention might be -- if you can find it -- Legends of Icelandic Magicians.

She was president of the Folklore Society. She has also, delightfully, contributed to a fanzine for M. R. James fans, and a number of stories by her are collected in a book:

[www.lulu.com]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 30 August, 2020 02:44PM
We had a big tome when I was a kid - Fairy & Folk-tales of the Irish Peasantry - stories collected by the poet W.B. Yeats. Some were a lot better than others, but I guess what they lacked in variety they made up for in quantity. Aside from the little people - and you don't want to mess with THOSE guys - the devil regularly turned up (much as he does in other cultures) at card games etc, dressed all in black and sporting a limp. Even as a teenager I'd hear stories of how some girl had met a nice gentleman at dancehall the previous week-end, only to spot the cloven hoof beneath the table just in time (stories I suspect were promoted by some rival dancehall owner). One would think the Prince of Darkness had better things to do with his time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30 Aug 20 | 02:45PM by Cathbad.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 31 August, 2020 03:10PM
Here's a second Lafcadio Heern weird tale from Japan, "The Dream of Akinosuke."

[www.sacred-texts.com]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 31 August, 2020 08:06PM
Thanks for all the pointers and links, Dale! I've taken a look at Kittelsen's work, and it truly expresses that cold, dark world of the far northern lands, with a heavy sense of melancholy which moves me. His pictures related to the plague are my favorites, with their eerie suggestions and that isolated dark figure wandering in those lonely places. They're truly disturbing, but dignified in their mournful atmosphere. I also have a fondness for his troll figures, those very nightmarish, very enthusiastic characters. It's a far cry from CAS indeed, but I think CAS had a kindred sense of melancholy and morbidity, even if his mind was wandering through different lands. I recall CAS had only written one or two poems related to Norse mythology, but made countless references to Greek and Arabian lore, so it's clear where his preferences lie.

I've read one of Simpson's books on the Viking World, which was one of my introductions to the culture. I never thought to read more of her work (simply because I've been eager to stretch myself thin with my readings!), but everything you share of her is fascinating. Icelandic folklore has caught my mind lately, with its vast landscapes and eerie elemental beings, and that tradition of invisible people who somehow evoke both endless mystery and a weird sense of coziness. I almost wish I could move there at once, and take in all those malformed troll stones. M. R. James is my favorite ghost story author, so on top of her Icelandic studies, I'll gladly read her fiction asap!!!

Related subject continuing from another thread:

Quote:
Sawfish
BTW, our daughter came home unexpectedly from her job in CA for my wife's birthday (yesterday! 64! and she looks about 45!); she (my daughter) is fortunate in that she can work remotely.
Anway, I talked about the link to Japanese monsters that you sent, and told her:

"Can you image these coming off the ferry in Miayazaki's "Spirited Away", coming to Ubaba's bath house to "replenish themselves"?

She laughed and laughed...

It always warms me to know when a family is actually functioning and getting along. Can't say the same for my upbringing!

Haha! A Miyazaki fan, I see! Spirited Away is easily one of my favorite animated films of all time, along with his Princess Mononoke. And Ponyo and Kiki's Delivery Service make excellent films for kids and adults alike! I agree, all creatures from that website are begging for a blink-and-you'll-miss appearance in the bath house's throng of monsters! Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are in there, since the film has a strong folkloric vibe, though in the form of an original story.

Earlier I mentioned how CAS' creatures would suit Japanese folkloric aesthetics well. CAS is naturally obscure everywhere you go, but his creatures do have a small Japanese following, likely in relation to the Cthulhu Mythos. I'll ask my friend who lives in Japan for those pictures I mentioned, portraying such CAS monsters as Tsathoggua and Rlim-Shaikorth terrorizing the native landscape. If CAS were more well-known, I can easily imagine his work having a big following there, especially for his bizarre creatures and some of his kindred aesthetics. Tsathoggua could have been a patron at Yubaba's bath house! Though perhaps he'd need to be carried by several of his shapeless black servants.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 31 Aug 20 | 08:18PM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 31 August, 2020 08:28PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even as a teenager I'd hear stories of how
> some girl had met a nice gentleman at dancehall
> the previous week-end, only to spot the cloven
> hoof beneath the table just in time (stories I
> suspect were promoted by some rival dancehall
> owner). One would think the Prince of Darkness had
> better things to do with his time.


No kidding! You mean there are people who still imagine the classic Devil with horns and hooves causing mischief in the land? I always thought that idea disappeared since the middle ages, but it goes to show how little I know, ha.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31 Aug 20 | 08:29PM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 1 September, 2020 12:38AM
Hespire, among the grimmest pages I’ve ever read are those on the Skafta Fires in Iceland in Dominic Cooper’s little-known novel Men at Axlir. Powerful writing, that.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 1 September, 2020 08:39AM
Going to divert a bit, on the subject of Miyazaki, below:

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for all the pointers and links, Dale! I've
> taken a look at Kittelsen's work, and it truly
> expresses that cold, dark world of the far
> northern lands, with a heavy sense of melancholy
> which moves me. His pictures related to the plague
> are my favorites, with their eerie suggestions and
> that isolated dark figure wandering in those
> lonely places. They're truly disturbing, but
> dignified in their mournful atmosphere. I also
> have a fondness for his troll figures, those very
> nightmarish, very enthusiastic characters. It's a
> far cry from CAS indeed, but I think CAS had a
> kindred sense of melancholy and morbidity, even if
> his mind was wandering through different lands. I
> recall CAS had only written one or two poems
> related to Norse mythology, but made countless
> references to Greek and Arabian lore, so it's
> clear where his preferences lie.
>
> I've read one of Simpson's books on the Viking
> World, which was one of my introductions to the
> culture. I never thought to read more of her work
> (simply because I've been eager to stretch myself
> thin with my readings!), but everything you share
> of her is fascinating. Icelandic folklore has
> caught my mind lately, with its vast landscapes
> and eerie elemental beings, and that tradition of
> invisible people who somehow evoke both endless
> mystery and a weird sense of coziness. I almost
> wish I could move there at once, and take in all
> those malformed troll stones. M. R. James is my
> favorite ghost story author, so on top of her
> Icelandic studies, I'll gladly read her fiction
> asap!!!
>
> Related subject continuing from another thread:
>
> BTW, our daughter came home unexpectedly from her
> job in CA for my wife's birthday (yesterday! 64!
> and she looks about 45!); she (my daughter) is
> fortunate in that she can work remotely.
>
> Anway, I talked about the link to Japanese
> monsters that you sent, and told her:
>
> "Can you image these coming off the ferry in
> Miayazaki's "Spirited Away", coming to Ubaba's
> bath house to "replenish themselves"?
>
> She laughed and laughed...
>
> It always warms me to know when a family is
> actually functioning and getting along. Can't say
> the same for my upbringing!
>
> Haha! A Miyazaki fan, I see! Spirited Away is
> easily one of my favorite animated films of all
> time, along with his Princess Mononoke.

A really good comparison is that my wife's "type" of Japanese personality is very much like the peasant girls who work for Lady Eboshi.

Very earthy, ribald sense of humor...

> And Ponyo
> and Kiki's Delivery Service

I'm not kidding when I say that Kiki made the example of self-motivation and industry a VERY positive role model that my daughter was impressed with from the very first times she saw it.

> make excellent films
> for kids and adults alike! I agree, all creatures
> from that website are begging for a
> blink-and-you'll-miss appearance in the bath
> house's throng of monsters! Actually, I wouldn't
> be surprised if some of them are in there, since
> the film has a strong folkloric vibe, though in
> the form of an original story.

A great, great film which I asked for, for a birthday prenet years ago.

>
> Earlier I mentioned how CAS' creatures would suit
> Japanese folkloric aesthetics well. CAS is
> naturally obscure everywhere you go, but his
> creatures do have a small Japanese following,
> likely in relation to the Cthulhu Mythos. I'll ask
> my friend who lives in Japan for those pictures I
> mentioned, portraying such CAS monsters as
> Tsathoggua and Rlim-Shaikorth terrorizing the
> native landscape. If CAS were more well-known, I
> can easily imagine his work having a big following
> there, especially for his bizarre creatures and
> some of his kindred aesthetics. Tsathoggua could
> have been a patron at Yubaba's bath house! Though
> perhaps he'd need to be carried by several of his
> shapeless black servants.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 2 September, 2020 01:27PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire, among the grimmest pages I’ve ever read
> are those on the Skafta Fires in Iceland in
> Dominic Cooper’s little-known novel Men at
> Axlir. Powerful writing, that.


I've read about the Skafta Fires a few weeks ago, and it was one of the most depressing historical things I've read, downright apocalyptic, and I can hardly imagine what the social and emotional atmosphere of the country was like at the time. My interest in mythology and folk culture also made me interested in the real people that made them, so I would love to read this historical novel. A drama during that bleak and dismal period sounds gripping and unimaginably intense. I see some cheap copies online, so I'm gonna snatch one up immediately, along with Simpson's Icelandic studies. No doubt I'll get a real kick out of reading this in dark winter!

Do you know any good books that deal with Iceland's Huldufólk?

Quote:
Sawfish
Going to divert a bit, on the subject of Miyazaki, below:

No worries, I'd say Miyazaki is relevant to this thread in that his films tend to approach fantasy in a very folkish way, and it probably helps that he's an old man who didn't have much interest in popular fantasy trends. Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away especially have a lot to do with Japanese folk traditions, but the influence pervades throughout all his films. Japanese animism sees life in all things around you, and this is perfectly illustrated in his scenes portraying weird creatures or living phenomena rising from the environment. Hearn's books and Miyazaki's films would make good introductions for the average westerner.

Ha, Eboshi's women were such amazing stand-out characters. They play an ever-pervasive role in the background of the story, as the ones who keep the morally ambiguous town alive, despite having a minor role in prince Ashitaka's journey. And their irreverent spunk makes them endlessly memorable! Unlike most of the men in that film, I'd say you're lucky to be married to someone like that! No doubt you'd have an admirably independent daughter!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 2 September, 2020 09:21PM
Hespire, Simpson’s book will be a good place to start, I’m sure. She has a bibliography too.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 09:24AM
De Quincey said that a man whose daily thoughts are of cattle will cream of cattle. I dreamed I was in a bookstore trying to decide whether to buy for $8 a used copy of a volume -- I think in the Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore Library -- of tales from what was once called the Near East (that is, Palestine, Arabia, Persia, Afghanistan, India -- right?) as opposed to the Far East (China, Mongolia, Tibet, Korea, Japan....). I hadn't been reading such tales before lights out...

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 10:34AM
Hah! Good one, Dale!

BTW, have others here on ED found that small e-readers are the best thing since bottled beer? ;^)

To me, there's no substitute for a high-quality, hardbound volume, but the cost is more than I'm willing to routinely bear (although I'm not averse to asking for these kinds of books for Xmas presents), but for the *constant* reader of popular fiction, and also some public domain stuff, e-readers are really, really handy!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 11:08AM
Jacqueline Simpson wrote about the "Rules of Folklore" in M. R. James's tales --

[www.tandfonline.com]

Worth reading if you can get hold of a copy. I wish it had been included in her Where Are the Bones? collection.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 11:26AM
Ereaders are kind of pricey. There are two big advantages; you can get the book pretty much right away at the click of a button (and a lot of stuff that was out of print is now available online) and they're often easier to read (because you can adjust text size, they're back-lit etc, etc). I do have a soft spot for books though, and would hate to see them entirely supplanted by ebooks. To use a corollory; I rarely carry cash anymore. Very few people I know do. But I'd be sorry to see coins, notes etc, vanish.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 12:08PM
As to price, I bought a Barnes & Noble Nook for $20, used, on Mercari. I'd recommend a Kindle, though, simply for ease of use. There are a lot of these on the used market, and maybe $50 would get you a decent one. The screen on my daughter's broke when I borrowed it, she got a new one, and I repaired her old one for $25 and also have that one, now.

You can get them cheaply.

Also, I do, indeed, use the public library a lot, and during the lockdown it was sure nice to just get books with no need to deal with crowds, etc.

But I was going to the gym, etc., before lockdowns, and it was very easy just to carry the ereader and place it on a stationary bike! If I had to take the car in for an oil change, while waiting it was nice to have the pocket-sized ereader.

But yep, I still like hardbacks best of all.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 01:00PM
Can you stick a USB memory in an e-reader? And can it read PDF files?

Or how do you fill it with books? Can you connect it with your computer and fill it from there? Or can it only be filled commercially from Amazon and similar places?

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 02:04PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you stick a USB memory in an e-reader? And can
> it read PDF files?

Depends on the ereader.

Most ereaders are not RAM expandable, but also bear in mind that in native Kindle format (.mobi is the generic, source agnostic format you might get from Project Gutenberg, e.g.). 1GB = 1000 printed volumes, generally speaking. Epub format is more compact, bit-wise, and so you can probably double that for .epub format books.

So think of it: a 16GB Kindle can have ~16,000 volumes.

Some can read PDF, but my guess is that for PDF you no longer can change font types/families and font size, margins, line spacing, etc. These adjustments are available from Kindle and EPub formats. It is very nice to do this, for me. My eyes get tired or maybe "bored" and just flipping from serif to sans serif helps, some. At night, I increase font size, sometimes.

There are also tablets--lots and lots of them--that might appeal, but I did not mention them because the portability of a Nook or Kindle Paperwhite, e.g., is one of the biggest advantages. These would certainly do .mobi, .epub, (both by apps) and .pdf formats.

>
> Or how do you fill it with books? Can you connect
> it with your computer and fill it from there?

Yes, that's one way, and I do it that way, mostly.

Or
> can it only be filled commercially from Amazon and
> similar places?

That is the *simplest* way and I'm confident that original marketing indicated that most e-reader owners wants as simple wifi transfer that is as user-transparent as possible. This means in effect *buying* from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and a very few other vendors, but (BIG BUT)...

I have bought *only* one book in all the years I've owned a reader. I either check them out of the library, or get them online from places like Project Gutenberg. Thse I download from libraries or PG, and if you have an Amazon Prime account, the Kindle (.mobi) format books you check out from a library will be sent via wifi to your Kindle.

So it fills a niche, is NOT a replacement for regular book acquisitions. Quick and easy, that's basically what they're for. Library books and free books.

But I have one hell of a lot of free Machen, for example. All of Doyle's Sherlock Holmes, Dreiser, Stephen Crane, etc., and right now, I'm reading Caesar's commentaries on the Gallic War--all from Gutenberg.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 02:17PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Depends .......

Thanks a lot. I may get one. I just don't know which. I suppose there is an abundance of different models, and I just don't have the energy to do the research. Do you have one of those with non-glossy screen that perfectly imitates real paper print? That seems nice.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 02:54PM
My first e-reader was like that, Knygatin - ie, it wasn't backlit, so it was pretty much identical to paper. I really liked it, but Kindle don't do them anymore (and I can't remember what they were called). You could probably buy one second hand.

Kindle has its own discretionary software - ie, any document has to be in a mobi format, whereas most other ereaders are epub. You can get free apps (e.g. calibre) that you can download onto your computer and which let you convert a html document into either format. And yeah, you can drag a pdf file onto your kindle (or whatever) and open it, but keep in mind that as it's not a html document, the text will be absolutely tiny.

Like Sawfish says, I'm not sure it affected my buying habits much. Most of the stuff I read on my kindle I get for free. It does mean I read a good deal more than I used to, though.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 3 September, 2020 03:18PM
Yes, exactly.

I read more now; it's just easier in many, many ways to take *multiple* books with me in a very small and compact package.

Not a replacement strategy, but an *addition to* what you've been doing all your life.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 4 September, 2020 02:11AM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My first e-reader was like that, ...

Thanks, Cathbad. So far I read stories and books on my computer screen, and I like it quite a lot. But it only works for Word documents and PDFs (I like the direct representation of old books and magazines like Weird Tales.)

Next time I'll post similar comments in more appropriate thread.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 11:31AM
Those who'd like to sample folktales from Iceland without going to any expense may check this source:

[books.google.com]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 11:40AM
Alan Garner: "I am fascinated by Japanese legends. They have the real touch of fear in them. ...a very good sense of the macabre ... An example of that is Hoichi the Earless[i]."


[www.gutenberg.org]

The Garner excerpt is from an interview with Justin Wintle published in [i]The Pied Pipers
.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 6 Sep 20 | 11:43AM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 12:02PM
Sorry that I failed to replay earlier, Knygatin. To my idiosyncratic ideas of politeness, that's rude, and I don't want to be rude.

If you want used non-backlit, in Kindle format, this is a decent choice:

[www.mercari.com]

[www.mercari.com]

[www.mercari.com]

Having also used a Kindle Paperwhite (backlit, touch screen), they are nice, as well, and can be had used for about $60-$90.

If you want the .epub format (a good option but somewhat more work to use when checking books out of the library--although Cathbad knows lots more than I do about e-readers, and there may be easier ways), a non-backlit basic Nook (these are all touch screen) might be:

[www.mercari.com]

All of these have non-glare screens that appear to be something like matte glass. So far as I know, all Nooks and Kindles do.

There are nuances to e-readers, and if you ever decide to get one, I'd be happy to throw in my 2 cents, and I'll bet we could get Cathbad to add to it.

For example, Amazon made an e-reader that was the top-of-the-line for a while, but discontinued it in favor of a less costly-to-manufacture model. This was the Kindle Voyage. They were made of metal, flush glass screens, very high resolution (as compaed to the base models--which to my eye are certainly good enough), backlit.

Too, there is a Canadian company, I believe, that makes the Kobo reader, which is supposed to be good, but I've never handled them.

I'll finish with this personal observation/revelation...

As little as three years ago a friend asked me if I had ever used one. I smugly indicated that I had used one, once, but in no way did I see them as comparable to a good hardcopy.

...and this is *still* true, but two things make e-readers worth having: you can get many free books online, just spontaneously, and I'm a real tightwad--as I small kid, I thought Scrooge McDuck was cool, far cooler than Superman, Sgt. Rock, etc...

The other think is that during COVID I can get books from the library systems here in Portland without ever contacting anyone, nor touching any transmittable surface.

So they are just a nice alternative to add to the way I normally enjoy books.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Sep 20 | 12:04PM by Sawfish.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 01:01PM
I doubt if I could add anything, Sawfish. Except to say I actually got used to the back-lit kindle pretty quickly!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 01:10PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those who'd like to sample folktales from Iceland
> without going to any expense may check this
> source:
>
> [books.google.com]
> PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false


Thanks for the link. I'll gladly look at it later today. I've read several Icelandic folk tales, and learned about Icelandic folk beliefs, thanks to various websites such as archive.org, a treasure trove of folkloristic studies. It's how I also learned about the folk cultures of the Inuit, Finnish, and Norse peoples. It's fascinating how different their worldviews are, though they all live in the freezing north! The Icelandic people, who if I remember correctly brought their religion of Thor, Odin, etc., changed a heck of a lot from their mainland ancestors.

The Japanese story of Hoichi is one of my favorites, and can always make me cringe with pain! I also have a fondness for the story of the Samebito, that good-natured shark man and his magical tears.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 02:13PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I doubt if I could add anything, Sawfish. Except
> to say I actually got used to the back-lit kindle
> pretty quickly!


BTW, I downloaded calibre ad have been looking it over. This is EXCELLENT!

Thanks a million, Cathbad!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 02:53PM
In Icelandic Folktales and Legends edited by Jacqueline Simpson you can find "The Changeling Who Stretched" (I have looked, and the tale is cited from this edition here and there, but doesn't seem to be printed in full online). While I would wonder where he could have seen it, Arthur Machen might seem to have drawn on it for "The Black Seal" and the weird stretching done by Jervase Cradock. The story does mention changelings.

Machen did read some folklore at least late in life. For example:

I have been looking into a very odd book, and I am going to tell the story of the Asiki, or Little Beings, first observing that the singular is Isiki. Well, it is said that the Asiki were once ordinary, human children, but were caught, when young and defenceless, by wizards or witches, and were dragged into the black depths of the forest, where there was no help for them, where no one could hear their cries. The wizards cut off their tongues as a first measure; and so they never speak again, and cannot inform against the magicians. They are then carried away, and hidden in a secret place, where they are subjected to magical processes which change their whole nature, so that they are no longer mortal. They forget their homes, their fathers and mothers and all their kinsfolk. Even the hair of their heads changes. Instead of being crisp wool, it becomes long and straight and hangs down their backs. At the back of their heads they wear a curious comb-shaped ornament, made of some twisted fibre. This they value almost as part of their life, just as in another quarter of the world there are people who drive motorcars and cherish little images and idols and grotesque figures, which are believed to constitute a most powerful protection. These Asiki will sometimes be seen walking on dark nights, and are occasionally met on their walks. It is believed that if a person is either naturally fearless, or made fearless by charms and spells, and dares to seize an Isiki and snatch away the comb, the possession of this mascot will bring him great wealth. But he will not be allowed to remain in peaceful possession of it. The Isiki, in a state of misery and desolation, will be seen wandering about the place where the magic comb was taken from it, endeavouring to get it back. And as late as the year 1901 strange things were told of these Little People in Libreville, French Congo. A certain Frenchman, known to be a Freemason, returning from his restaurant dinner to his house one evening noticed a small figure keeping pace with him on the other side of the road. He called out, ‘Who are you?’ There was no reply; the figure kept on walking, advancing and retreating before him.

A few nights later, a negro clerk in some trading house met the Isiki near the place where the Frenchman had encountered it. And the Little Being began to chase the negro. He ran for his life, and told his master, the trader, what had happened. He got laughed at for his pains, and the next night the trader told the tale to a select company of white men and black women, the Freemason being present. And he said, ‘Your clerk did not lie; he told the truth. I have myself met that Little Being, but I did not try to catch it.’ Then the black women spoke of the odd comb-ornament, and of how the Asiki treasured it, and of the good fortune it would bring to anybody who could capture it. Whereupon the Frenchman – otherwise the Freemason – said, ‘As the Little Being is so small, the very next time I see it I will try to catch it and bring it here, so that you can see it and know that this story is actually true.’

Soon after, the Frenchman and the trader went out at night and tried to find the Isiki. No Little Being was to be found, but a few nights later the Frenchman met it near the place where it had been seen before. He ran forward and tried to catch it, but the Isiki eluded him. However, he succeeded in snatching the comb, and ran with it towards his house. The Little Being was displeased and ran after him to recover the charm. Having no tongue, it could not speak, but holding out one hand pleadingly and with the other motioning to the back of its head, it made pathetic sounds in its throat, thus pleading that its treasure should be given back to it. It followed the Frenchman till the lights of his house began to shine, and then it disappeared. The Frenchman showed the comb to his friends, both black and white, and all agreed that they had never seen anything like it before. From that night the Isiki was often seen by negroes, who were afraid to pass that way in the dark. It followed the Frenchman persistently, pleading with its hands in dumb show, and making a grunting noise in its throat. The Frenchman got tired of all this, and made up his mind that he would give the comb back. And so next night he took it with him; and also a pair of scissors. The Little Being appeared and followed him. He held out his hand, with the comb in it. The Isiki leapt forward and snatched at the talisman and secured it, and the Frenchman tried to catch the Isiki. The Little Being was too agile, however, and escaped; but the Frenchman snipped off a lock of the long straight hair with his scissors, and brought it home and showed it to his friends.

Such is the story told by Dr. Robert H. Nassau, an American missionary, who had worked for forty years in Africa. He seems to fear that his tale will be regarded as incredible. It seems to me, on the contrary, highly, probable. Naturally, one dismisses that part of it which relates to the process by which these Little Beings are made, and that part of it which ascribes to them immortality. The Little People were not made out of little woolly piccaninnies by the magic arts of the wizards; and probably, if one could be caught and examined, it would be found that it had a tongue in its mouth, like any other human being. The fact is that here, in all likelihood, we have a pretty exact parallel to the Little People of our own folk-lore: the Daione Sidhe of Ireland, the Tylwyth Teg of Wales. The substratum in both cases is the same: an aboriginal people of small stature overcome and sent into the dark by invaders. In Britain and Ireland the dark meant subterranean dwellings made under the hills in the wildest and most remote parts of the country; they will point you out the place of these dwellings in Antrim to this day, and tell you that they are Fairy Raths. And in nine cases out of ten you may accept the statement with entire confidence; so long as you define ‘fairies’ or ‘the People’ as small, dark aborigines who hid from the invading Celt somewhere about 1500–1000 B.C. And in Africa the dark meant the blackness of the forest; places hidden in the thickest tangle of trees and undergrowth, protected, perhaps, from all outsiders, black or white, by a maze of narrow paths winding in and out of a foul swamp. And as to the legend of the torn-out tongues, of the guttural noises made by the Asiki; is it not the case that the Little People of the genuine Celtic tradition are also silent? I will not be sure; but I incline to think that this is so. They beckon, they gesticulate, they are seen by Irish countrymen playing at hurly: but they say nothing – the reason being that they do not speak the language of their conquerors. I have seen a monoglot Englishman in Touraine behaving much as the Isiki behaved to the Frenchman at Libreville, even to the making of unearthly sounds and the indulging in antic gestures. But he only wanted milk with his tea. And there is this further parallel between the Little Beings of Africa and the Little People of Ireland. Both are on a curious borderland between the natural and the supernatural. Both are able to ‘propagate procerity’ – I use an elegant phrase of Dr. Johnson’s. This is formally asserted of the Asiki; and in Celtdom we have the legends of the changeling, the little, dark creature found in the cradle of the big, red-haired Celtic baby. And both are material and capable of dealing with material things and of making use of them. Miss Somerville has strange tales of them which are of our own day. Miss Somerville herself had seen the shoe that was found on the lonely hill. It was of the size that a child of about a year old might use, but it was heavily made, in the fashion of a workman’s brogue, and had seen hard wear. And, again, she tells the story of two servants sent on a sudden errand at night. They were driving a car, and at the entrance of a certain town, the harness broke. And there they found a little saddler’s shop, open in the dead of night, and two little men within – described with a shudder as ‘quare’ – to whom the servants told their trouble. They were terrified almost out of their senses; they would not stay in the shop: but the work was done, and done well.

We have here a state of mind which is very hard to understand. What can an Immortal want with a workman’s leather shoe? And how should Beings of another order from that of man, Beings to be beheld with awe and dread of the spirit, undertake saddlery repairs on demand? One would say that the belief that such things are so is impossible; but yet it exists in Ireland, probably to this day; and it is much like the negro belief as to the Asiki.

It is interesting to note, by the way, that Fairyland in Ireland seems strongly associated with leather. There is the matter of the fairy brogue, there is the adventure of the fairy saddlers; and then there is the Leprechaun, who is a fairy cobbler. He is, clearly, a distant cousin of the Asiki. And if, in spite of all his efforts to distract you, you continue to regard him with a fixed gaze, your reward will be a crock of gold.

Arthur Machen, ‘The Little People’ Dreads and Drolls (London 1926)

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 04:00PM
In Irish mythology, the fairies - the sidhe - are actually the same size as us, and only retreated underground after being defeated by the Milesians (I think). The idea of them being tiny seems to have been an 18th century notion, maybe English in origin - much like the leprechaun, who doesn't feature in Irish mythology at all as nobody (fairy or human alike) wore shoes in Ireland until relatively late in our history.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 10:47PM
I've always known that Machen had more than a little interest in folklore. His stories, especially "The White People", "The Great Return", and "The Hill of Dreams", make numerous references to his native folk history and alchemical occultism. I've never read this piece before, but it's fascinating how so many cultures can have somewhat similar accounts of hidden beings causing mischief. It seems the idea of the "little people" as a hidden aboriginal group used to be popular in his time, but seems to have dwindled from popular imagination today.

My knowledge of Irish mythology and folk culture is faint, but that story sounds like something Machen would have considered significant to his beliefs regarding the little people.

Dale, with your specialty in European lore, do you know if Machen's esoteric references in "The White People" were based on any real practices or folk beliefs? You know, the Chian language, the Mao games, the Dols, the Jeelo, the Alala, etc. I couldn't find anything about the Aklo letters so I assume those aren't real, but anything on the terms I listed?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 6 Sep 20 | 10:49PM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 05:15AM
I don't know so much about this, but I'd like to mention that Robert E. Howard also wrote a bit about the little people in connection to his favorite race, the Picts (foremost in the Bran Mak Morn tales). The little people in documented Western culture seem to belong most appropriately in the era from early Roman times, through the Dark Ages, up until the Renaissance when the Christian church finally had total dominance over Europe and the pagan remains had to go into hiding. But in Asian culture little people may have flourished longer.

Recent excavations on the Indonesian island Flores have actually unearthed skeletons of an upright standing midget humanoid race that were about 90 cm tall. Not deformed and squat, like the ones you see in Hollywood films, but having gracile anatomy; miniatures of men.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 07:34AM
Hespire, so far as I know all those items in Machen’s “White People “ that you mention were Machen’s inventions.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 09:34AM
Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've always known that Machen had more than a
> little interest in folklore. His stories,
> especially "The White People", "The Great Return",
> and "The Hill of Dreams", make numerous references
> to his native folk history and alchemical
> occultism. I've never read this piece before, but
> it's fascinating how so many cultures can have
> somewhat similar accounts of hidden beings causing
> mischief. It seems the idea of the "little people"
> as a hidden aboriginal group used to be popular in
> his time, but seems to have dwindled from popular
> imagination today.
>
> My knowledge of Irish mythology and folk culture
> is faint, but that story sounds like something
> Machen would have considered significant to his
> beliefs regarding the little people.
>
> Dale, with your specialty in European lore, do you
> know if Machen's esoteric references in "The White
> People" were based on any real practices or folk
> beliefs? You know, the Chian language, the Mao
> games, the Dols, the Jeelo, the Alala, etc. I
> couldn't find anything about the Aklo letters so I
> assume those aren't real, but anything on the
> terms I listed?


In Hawaiian lore, there's the idea of the minehune (I hope I spelled that correctly), a race of small people who inhabited the islands before the Polynesians arrived around 1500 AD or so. They are associated with furtiveness, etc.

Being irreverent, and yet also seriously speculative, I first played around with the idea that yep, there were earlier inhabitants, and as compared to the Polynesians, who are genetically very large folk, especially the Tahitian subset that colonized Hawaii, and Hawaiian being an imprecise language, over time any group who was noticeably *smaller*, in any sense, might eventually become thought of as elf-like in size. Especially if they were seldom, or never, seen.

Now, all this worldwide talk of there being actual minehune, fairies, little folk, etc., could be put to rest by finding human remains or material artifacts from these folk. There are plausible reasons why we might not, but really, we would expect to find some indications, somewhere, from the locales with the widespread tales of "little people", of their previous existence. But we don't actually see this in the context that indicates direct cohabitation/competition with the large modern humans. This is to say that as far as I know, we can see evidence of Denisovans that overlap in the dimension of time with modern humans, but not in specific locale. This differs from the Neanderthal/modern human overlap in Europe. Trolls and ogres, anyone?

So...

But I had my own theory...

The Hawaiians must have been very hungry after their long voyage. We see no evidence of any minehunes, but we *do* see lots of evidence of large, well-fed Polynesians...

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 12:52PM
Quote:
Knygatin
I don't know so much about this, but I'd like to mention that Robert E. Howard also wrote a bit about the little people in connection to his favorite race, the Picts

Indeed, he'd written several different stories about them, chief of which are "The Children of the Night" and "The Black Stone." It seems he was even more directly influenced by Machen's little people than Lovecraft was. HPL's "little people" were a super-advanced civilization of crustaceans!

Quote:
Knygatin
Recent excavations on the Indonesian island Flores have actually unearthed skeletons of an upright standing midget humanoid race that were about 90 cm tall. Not deformed and squat, like the ones you see in Hollywood films, but having gracile anatomy; miniatures of men.

I never heard of this before! I'm looking up these people and I can't believe what I'm reading! If ever there were elves in human history, this is the closest thing imaginable. It's such a shame they went extinct, but then again it's a shame when anything goes extinct, including the giant storks and miniature elephants they lived among. Speaking of which, I've just read that this race of literal little people might have been menaced by those colossal storks, scary to imagine...

Quote:
Sawfish
In Hawaiian lore, there's the idea of the minehune (I hope I spelled that correctly), a race of small people who inhabited the islands before the Polynesians arrived around 1500 AD or so. They are associated with furtiveness, etc.

Thanks for the fascinating story and insight, especially regarding that Polynesians' perspective. I had a feeling you'd contribute something related to Hawaiian lore! It seems no matter what continent or island you go to, there's going to be some stories about hidden people or diminutive people blessing and cursing human existence. It's interesting to wonder where all these similar ideas come from, whether it's psychological or historical.

Quote:
Sawfish
The Hawaiians must have been very hungry after their long voyage. We see no evidence of any minehunes, but we *do* see lots of evidence of large, well-fed Polynesians...

In an age when voyagers had no clue where their next food source will be, it isn't too far-fetched an idea. ;)

By the way, that mention I made of HPL's "little people" reminded me that the Mi-Go, or Himalayan Snow-Men, were not merely legendary ape-like animals, but actual fabulous legends, somewhat akin to elves or trolls. They had magical powers, good and bad relationships with humanity (mischievous tricksters, good-natured gift bringers, or man-eating devils), and even religious significance.

And just describing this is making me realize how strange it is that HPL decided the hairy bestial Snow-Men were in fact bat-winged crustaceans!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Sep 20 | 12:53PM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 01:53PM
A. Merritt quite wonderfully described the little people in his novel Dwellers in the Mirage. They ran about like "little deer".

When animals are lesser in size, the proportion of their mass weight to body size is also reduced, compared to bigger species. Which makes their movements lighter, more sprightly.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 01:56PM
"The Hobbit of Indonesia":

[en.wikipedia.org]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2020 05:28PM
Here's a fanzine with a real Machen folkloric-type rarity in it:

[www.fanac.org]

The "Little People" of the mount and the threatening club seen out of the corner of one's eye suggest something malevolent behind the cute modern picture of the leprechaun leaning on his shillelagh as a supposed walking stick.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 23 December, 2020 06:30PM
In case Dale is hovering around, I just finished reading the tragic, violent, larger than life saga of Grettir, with special interest in his encounter with the undead monster Glam! Those terrible eyes! That massive head! Ahhh! This particular episode seemed like something out of a good weird story, especially Conan.

As you are without doubt the biggest expert in this field among us, are there any stories, songs, sagas, or segments of these things which might interest a fan of CAS or weird fiction? I recall a discussion about the vast difference between CAS and the earthy, brutal farmer atmosphere of northern European tales, and am interested in any bridge, no matter how small, between the two.

That's not to say I need any such connection to continue. I've begun reading the Heimskringla now, thoroughly invested in Odin's travels!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 December, 2020 08:10PM
Hi, Hespire!

There is plenty to interest readers of weird fiction in the folklore and sagas of the North, but (so far as I have read the Northern material and CAS) little indeed that suggests his ornate style and the denizens of his stories.

The one book I would recommend, if I were to recommend only one, for the fan of weird fiction who is receptive to the spell of the North, is Jacqueline Simpson's Icelandic Folktales and Legends. If you can get it from a library, you might also try her Legends of Icelandic Magicians. Her Penguin collection of Scandinavian Folktales is very good.

In the sagas -- you started with the right one! Others you might like are the Saga of the Volsungs and the Laxdaela Saga, the latter of which is mostly realistic, but the Killer-Hrapp material there comes to mind.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 December, 2020 08:18PM
By the way, I have just read a new translation of the classic Norwegian folktales collection of Asbjornsen and Moe. Translator is Tiina Nunnally, publisher is the University of Minnesota Press. It has 60 tales. But my favorite presentation of Asbjornsen and Moe is the much less comprehensive collection Viking Press did in 1960 because of the abundant illustrations of Kittelsen and Werenskiold, so I'd take that one if I had to choose between them -- happily, I don't. But the weird element isn't the emphasis here.

This Viking Press hardcover was paperbacked into the Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore Library, but if you can, see the 1960 edition for the sake of the artwork.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 23 December, 2020 09:44PM
Thank you very much for these suggestions Dale. I've actually read some of Jacqueline's Folktales and Legends these last couple months, thanks to your high praise of her work. For such a small isolated place, there's no end to its strangely beautiful and shockingly violent tales of hidden folk, mountain trolls, and oceanic nightmares. The story of Hild, Queen of the Elves, with its night-time flight and subterranean descent, is especially wild and suspenseful!

I've jotted down all your suggestions. I might just read those two sagas after one or two segments of the Heimskringla, which is essentially a collection of sagas itself. Realism is no bother to me, in spite of my taste for the weird. I enjoy the frank depiction of brutal men and back-breaking farmers, troubled wives and mad warriors. The occasional troll or tomb-guarding ghoul is a bonus!

Regarding the ornate style of CAS, I think the closest you'll find to it in northern literary tradition might be the Finnish Kalevala. Not because they are especially similar in themselves, but because the Kalevala also delights in its rich and colorful descriptions of nature, magic, and strange characters or creatures, when it isn't delving into domestic life and brutal, melancholic drama. There are certainly more sorcerers and magical beings in that text, and a whole world of lust, than there are warriors. Worthy of a read I say!

I'll be glad to delve into this snowy northern world again this holiday. Christmas is not only a time for warmth, but supernatural horror as well, at least that's what Nordic countries have taught me!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 24 December, 2020 04:53AM
A random comment - and probably a redundant one, as I’m guessing everybody knows anyway - but the metre for Hiawatha was directly inspired by the Kalevala.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 25 December, 2020 09:45AM
I love Kalevala, Hespire! The complete version I've read is Keith Bosley's, but I mean very soon to take up Magoun's. The missus found a copy in good condition for me in a thrift store... for a penny!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2020 06:32PM
I've been reading Folktales of England by Katharine Briggs and Ruth Tongue. There's one funny story after another; but sense of wonder or weirdness? Not in the stories I read today. So I like the book, but it helps to show how if you are after "weird" folktales, not just any folktale collection will do.

Having said that, I'll mention (again?) that "Yallery Brown" from England is one of the outstanding weird folktales.

[smartkids123.com]

Brrrr!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2020 07:41PM
P.S. If anyone does have access to Folktales of England -- a volume in that nifty Folktales of the World series that the University of Chicago used to publish -- he or she might check ""The Fairy Follower," "The Green Mist," "The Hunted Soul," "Anne Luker's Ghost," "The Son Murdered by His Parents," and "The Foreign Hotel." These have at least a bit of creepiness. But it would be a shame, if you have the book in hand, not also to read some of the ones that are just good humorous entertainment, such as "The First Banana," "The Pious Lion," and "The Tortoises' Picnic."

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 4 January, 2021 10:00AM
I've been invested in folklore studies for years now, so I have nothing against other forms of folktale, folk song, etc. I love a good story about luckless lads, poor farmers, and dimwitted devils. And whenever the Kalevala is mentioned one must always remember there are many chapters about beer-making, boat-building, wedding ceremonies, and other domestic affairs! I don't remember why this thread was made, but judging by the title I must have singled out folklore that is "weird", in the genre sense (emphasizing the supernatural and its effect on people), simply because this is a CAS fansite, but anything goes if you ask me.

I rarely venture into England, so I thank you for that story of Yallery Brown. It amazes me how frightening these diminutive comical creatures can be, and not to mention inexplicable! Must have been eerie for a Christian to wonder the history of all those stones.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 04:02PM
I'm a bit late to this party, and I'm not sure how much I can usefully say. Do not most folk tales and fairy tales tend to contain fantastic elements almost by definition? Obviously a narrower meaning is in mind -- fairy and folk tales that contain certain of the same elements we associate with (for instance) the weird tales of CAS and REH and HPL. But how to define what is being looked for?

Dale came up with an excellent example of a weird folk tale with Joseph Jacobs' YALLERY BROWN. Maybe that is the best example from Jacobs. But would it be stretching too far to also mention THE KING O'THE CATS, THE LAMBTON WORM, THE PIED PIPER, THE GOBLIN PONY, or THE HEDLEY KOW? Those are just stories from Jacobs whose weirdness stuck in my head. I'm sure one could make arguments for others as well.

One might exclude KING O'THE CATS on the grounds that talking animals are common in children's stories, and a talking animal is the main fantastic element in this one. But in the WHITE PEOPLE, Machen has Ambrose remark on how horrified we would be if an common animal were to actually talk to us. KING O'THE CATS strikes me as a story that tries to capture some of this weirdness and horror. Or maybe it's just trying to be funny. Your mileage may vary.

Tolkien cited THE JUNIPER TREE, from the Brothers Grimm, as a story that made an impression on him because of its weird and grisly elements.

I could easily dig up many more examples of weird folk tales collected in the 19th century. But maybe we could discuss what we are looking for first.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jan 21 | 04:14PM by Platypus.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 07:08PM
Well, I had in mind the sense of the uncanny, the eerie, dreadful, etc. Allowances may need to be made, when one reads a folktale in stark print, for the story's having earlier been told aloud, perhaps in a dwelling less brilliantly-illuminated than our homes tend to be, at night, without distracting noises from appliances, etc. (When my children were little, I might brush up on a story, then go up to one of their rooms, have a candle as sole illumination, and tell the story with some improvisation, trying to conjure the sense of deep woods or whatever. I certainly didn't try to creep them out traumatically.)

Here's another folktale:

There once was a woman from Stausland in the county of Vest-Agder, who was to attend the sermon on Christmas morning. In the middle of the night she woke up, and saw a light coming from inside the church. Not a single churchgoer was in sight.
Believing that she had overslept, she rushed out of bed, threw on her best coat, and hurried down to the church.
Once inside, the church was full of people as she had anticipated, but she wondered why she did not know any of those who were there. When the priest had stepped up to the pulpit, she cast a glance at the old woman who was sitting beside her. Rather bewildered, she saw that it was a neighbor of hers, who had passed away some time ago. “Get on your coat,” said the old hag, “and get out before the priest has finished his sermon. For this is the Mass of the dead, and they will kill you if they catch you here!”
The woman did as her neighbor had said -- before she had stood up from her seat, they were after her. Just as she rushed out the door, they tore off her coat, and she ran home like crazy.
In the morning when people came to the church to attend the morning Mass, only bits of the coat were left behind on the church steps.

Abigel Stokkeland, (b. 1844), as told to Peter Lunde in 1919
[legendsofthenorth.blogspot.com]
Norsk Folkeminnesamling: ml4015. De dødes messe. Id: SIN228. År: 1919. Sted: Søgne, Vest-Agder. Informant: Abigel Stokkeland, f. 1844. Samler: Peter Lunde


Here's a link to one that reminds me rather a lot of Blackwood's "Wendigo":

[52books.blogspot.com]

One more:

[www.pitt.edu]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jan 21 | 07:14PM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 09:33PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I had in mind the sense of the uncanny, the
> eerie, dreadful, etc.

Well, I think the examples I gave in my last post would count to some extent.

There's also "The Fiend" (or less correctly, "The Vampire") which is one of the Russian stories collected by Alexander Afansayev in the 19th Century.

Speaking of Russian Stories, Baba Yaga is a pretty grisly character, if you don't think she's too cartoonish.

There is also "The Princess in the Chest", which is one of the fairy stories collected by Andrew Lang, from the Danish, in his PINK FAIRY BOOK. He did not tone it down too much. If you want to know what you are missing, I think you can probably find a more-faithful translation under the title "The Princess in the Coffin". I also recall a Polish version, under the title "The Pitch Princess".

Also, thanks for the links.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jan 21 | 09:35PM by Platypus.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 25 January, 2021 12:38AM
Russia is filled with grisly stories, some of which would have easily made a home in the pages of Weird Tales. Was "The Fiend" about a young woman courted by a dashing gentleman who did some hellish things at a church?

Baba Yaga, and her emaciated male counterpart Koshchei the Deathless, are some nightmarish characters. Baba Yaga's house alone sounds eerily anomalous, with its one or more legs, its hidden entrance, and its fence of glowing skulls. The tale of "Vasilisa the Beautiful" is a good example of this witch. I think the "cartoonish" quality of Baba Yaga, and quite a few Russian folk tales, makes the atmosphere all the more anxiety-evoking, detaching me further from the reality I know. But I understand this might not have the same effect on others.

The Russian tale of "Father Frost" always gave me chills, and that pun was not at all intended but very much appropriate. I can't think of any other story, folkloric or not, that so perfectly conveys the oppressiveness and even horror of an increasingly cold winter.

This subject made me realize that CAS visited eastern Europe in exactly one story: "The Tale of Sir John Maundeville." It takes place in a fictional province of Georgia, directly below Russia, and I think it has the most folkloric atmosphere of all his fiction:

[www.eldritchdark.com]

Other than this, CAS didn't seem to acknowledge eastern Europe.

Speaking of which, the Finnish Kalevala has a few grisly stories, between its tales of magical creation and domestic drama. There are several which take place in the Finnish underworld, Tuonela, home to a black river filled with strange creatures, and a dark land with creepy characters who are more than eager to keep the witless living among the ranks of the dead. Meanwhile, the story about Kullervo, a cursed young man who brings death and despair everywhere he goes, has some rather disturbing scenes that would probably suit a modern horror film. His story, by the way, reminds me a lot of Scandinavian sagas, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some connection there.

Regarding the matter of "weird" folklore, I admit I must have been a little reckless when I made that title. I'm fine with any example of folklore in this thread, from raunchy jokes to lullabies. It's interesting to consider what counts as "weird" or suitable to the tastes of HPL, REH, etc. but I'm not picky!

Edit:

I think this painting by Akseli Gallen-Kallela is a fitting expression of the haunting character of Kullervo:

[en.m.wikipedia.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 25 Jan 21 | 12:48AM by Hespire.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 25 January, 2021 11:53AM
I read "The Vampire" (as it's called in my Russian Fairy Tales Pantheon paperback. Whew! "Ghoul" would be more accurate than "vampire," I suppose, but I wonder what the actual Russian word is.

I wonder if this is worth looking up: Perkowski, Jan L., Vampires of the Slavs. Cambridge, Mass.: Slavica, 1976.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 25 Jan 21 | 12:14PM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 25 January, 2021 01:39PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read "The Vampire" (as it's called in my Russian
> Fairy Tales Pantheon paperback. Whew! "Ghoul"
> would be more accurate than "vampire," I suppose,
> but I wonder what the actual Russian word is.

Nechistol (literally, "The Unclean"):
[www.gutenberg.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25 Jan 21 | 01:45PM by Platypus.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 25 January, 2021 01:54PM
Thanks, Platypus, that's interesting. I see the editor of that edition commented, "Marusia’s demon lover will be recognized as akin to Arabian Ghouls, or the Rákshasas of Indian mythology."

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Avoosl Wuthoqquan (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 11:17AM
Lafcadio Hearn, Kittelsen, Miyazaki, e-readers... This thread is like a map of my brain!

One of my golden childhood books is Sagen en Legenden van de Lage Landen (1980), written by Eelke de Jong and beautifully illustrated by Piet Klaasse. Anyone who read this collection of folk tales from the Low Countries as a Dutch ten-year-old will never have forgotten it. Its great strength (other than how memorable many of the stories are) lies in de Jong's ability to present a written story convincingly as something you are being told over a camp fire, while at the same time being quite refined. Some of his sentences will haunt me to the grave. ("De heksen solden net zo lang met hem tot hij geen draad vlees meer aan zijn lijf had. Toen lieten ze hem los.") Klaasse's illustrations are witty and creepy in equal measure.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 12:02PM
A. W., can you tell us if there is a good collection, aimed at adults, of Dutch folk tales?

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 01:25PM
I'm going to play a game with myself, with your assistance, if so motivated.

Your forum name, Avoosl Wuthoqquan, is the money changer/jeweler guy in the Hyperborea series, right? The guy who was eaten at the end...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Avoosl Wuthoqquan (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 03:22PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A. W., can you tell us if there is a good
> collection, aimed at adults, of Dutch folk tales?

I'm afraid nothing comes to mind. I doubt that we have a very rich folk tradition. But I sent a message to a friend of mine who knows more about this than I do. Let's see if she comes up with something.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Avoosl Wuthoqquan (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 03:23PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your forum name, Avoosl Wuthoqquan, is the money
> changer/jeweler guy in the Hyperborea series,
> right? The guy who was eaten at the end...

That is correct, sir.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 03:44PM
Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
>"De heksen
> solden net zo lang met hem tot hij geen draad
> vlees meer aan zijn lijf had. Toen lieten ze hem
> los."

An American friend in the Netherlands translated this thus:

"The witches messed around with him just long enough that there was not a fiber of flesh left on his body. Then they let him go."

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 03:56PM
Thanks, AV!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Avoosl Wuthoqquan (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 04:12PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> > "De heksen
> > solden net zo lang met hem tot hij geen draad
> > vlees meer aan zijn lijf had. Toen lieten ze
> > hem los."
>
> An American friend in the Netherlands translated
> this thus:
>
> "The witches messed around with him just long
> enough that there was not a fiber of flesh left on
> his body. Then they let him go."

Your friend did a fine job. I like "messed around" for "solden" very much.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 16 April, 2021 04:20PM
Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> > > "De heksen
> > > solden net zo lang met hem tot hij geen draad
> > > vlees meer aan zijn lijf had. Toen lieten ze
> > > hem los."
> >
> > An American friend in the Netherlands
> translated
> > this thus:
> >
> > "The witches messed around with him just long
> > enough that there was not a fiber of flesh left
> on
> > his body. Then they let him go."
>
> Your friend did a fine job. I like "messed around"
> for "solden" very much.

Oh my God!...

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: AlHazred (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2021 05:41PM
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I thought I'd add one thing for lovers of fairy tales to check out. If you haven't seen it, in the early 20th century Bernard Sleigh, a lover of all things fairy tale, crafted An Ancient Mappe of Fairyland, Newly Discovered and Set Forth. You can see a large-size image file of this wonder in a few places:

An Ancient Mappe of Fairyland (Library of Congress)
An Ancient Mappe of Fairyland (David Rumsey Collection)

He accompanied it with A Guide to the Map of Fairyland, which you can see here:

A Guide to the Map of Fairyland (Cover)
A Guide to the Map of Fairyland (Interior)

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: AlHazred (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2021 05:45PM
As a fan of fairy tales, I will mention the other famous map of fairyland, which is The Land of Make-Believe by Jaro Hess.

The Land of Make-Believe

This one was apparently popular to paint on the walls of childrens' bedrooms in the 30s and 40s. I feel like it would be easier to paint this one on a wall than Bernard Sleigh's "mappe."

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2021 05:59PM
AlHazred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a fan of fairy tales, I will mention the other
> famous map of fairyland, which is The Land of
> Make-Believe by Jaro Hess.
>
> The Land of Make-Believe
>
> This one was apparently popular to paint on the
> walls of childrens' bedrooms in the 30s and 40s. I
> feel like it would be easier to paint this one on
> a wall than Bernard Sleigh's "mappe."


Thanks, AlHazred!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2023 11:56AM
Is there interest in reviving this thread?

Here's one possible way to move forward, if so: we could pick a book of folktales and read & discuss it. Ideally several people at least would be willing to participate.

Now, if EDfolk like the idea, which book should we pick?

A possibility would be to select one of the 15 volumes in the University of Chicago's Folktales of the World series, which ran for about 25 years. There were ten numbered volumes, as follows:

1.Germany
2.China
3.England
4.Ireland
5.Norway
6.Hungary
7.Japan
8.Israel
9.Mexico
10.Greece

A further five books were published: Folktales of Chile, Egypt, France, and India. These make 14 volumes. There was also Folktales Told Around the World.

The series was nice in that it followed a consistent format, with some accessible scholarly commentary that does not overwhelm the stories, which are the emphasis of the books. Each story comes with an explanation of how it was recorded. The Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore Library was attractive, but from what I have seen it was less consistent than the Chicago series: some of the Pantheon volumes have little or no information about where, when, and by whom a given tale was recorded.

If, then, we found we really enjoyed the exploration of folktales, we'd have enough, with the Chicago series, to occupy us for years. We'd read a lot of stories and we'd also learn about the great folklorists of various countries.

If we go with the Chicago series, the next question is: which one to start with? One could simply begin with the first numbered one, Folktales of Germany. Or maybe someone here has a particular interest in Hungary or Egypt or whatever. On the other hand, there's been quite a lot of discussion here already about Scandinavian tales and some about Japanese -- so we could start with Norway or Japan.


Or someone might have a different suggestion -- or maybe there isn't sufficient interest in folktales, period.

I'd be up for resuming activity here at Chrons if EDfolk would like to go ahead with this. I will put my cards on the table again: I'm indifferent about Clark Ashton Smith, myself, so if some of you were finding parallels with some of his stories in the folktales, I wouldn't likely be able to get into that discussion (and so what!?). If the feeling is that a thread not focusing on CAS (or HPL, or Derleth, &c.) doesn't really belong at ED, naturally a veto could be made. Also, I'm a Lutheran, and there were some occasions on other threads in which I wrote in such a way that my Christianity was detectible. A member of this forum basically disinvited me, and I left, but it appears that he or she has not been active here for a year or so. If anyone's opinion is that it would be preferable for me not to write here, just say so. But that's no reason the folktale thread couldn't be revived. I think I'd like to be on board if it is.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2023 02:29PM
I am currently reading:

A RELATION OF APPARITIONS OF SPIRITS IN THE PRINCIPALITY OF WALES (1780), by the Rev. Edmund Jones.

[books.google.com]

I was interested in Machen's little people stories, and one thing led to another, and I ended up reading Jones. I believe it is one of the earliest sources of Welsh folklore, though the Rev. Jones not so much a folklorist as he is a (decidedly credulous) believer. Still, he is more fun to read than the typical stuffy academic.

I've been tinkering with a list of stories, in English, about scary little people, which list includes much folklore.

I am interested in folktales, but not familiar with the series you mention.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2023 03:42PM
Platypus, my earlier message sent today should have been better related to earlier messages posted in this thread (and perhaps other threads), since the thread has been dormant. I'd just reviewed it today so much of it was fresh in my mind.

My sense from the previous discussion (apart from a digression about electronic devices, of all things!) was that there was a fair degree of interest, on the part of several EDfolk, in folktales, not necessarily only those with a pronounced flavor of the weird. There'd been some discussion of collections in the genre. Someone mentioned Lafcadio Hearn's writing, although he was more a reteller than a folklorist.

Academic writing before 1975 can be stuffy, but I generally find it more palatable than a lot of what I've seen since. In any event, the books mentioned in this thread would not, I think, be too off-putting on that score. In fact, I think the biggest adjustment we may have to make is to the brevity of many of the tales: a story may lack some of its potential impact (for us) because the teller has not spun it out in the way a 20th-century writer, composing a story for magazine publication, would have handled it. Part of the reason for this is that the teller is often relating something that is told about a place in the vicinity. He or she doesn't conjure a sense of deep fir woods, cloudy weather, stark crags, etc. in Norway; all the listener had to do might be to open his eyes or to close them and think of what lies just on the other side of the window whose curtain was pulled across. The teller might not be quite certain that the event narrated happened, but he may well assume that some of the people in the valley do, or that the people who handed down the story did. As I think I mentioned in the thread, when I used to tell some such tales to my children, I'd review the story -- which might be but a few paragraphs in a book -- and I'd spin it out with improvised descriptions of my own and so on, so that more atmosphere could develop in the darkened room where, a moment ago, electric light had blazed.

Too, the presence of a story collector in many cases may have affected the presentation of the story. A storyteller might have given a summary version of a story when prompted. ("Joseph -- tell him the one about the troll and the moss-gatherers." "Oh, aye, that one. Well, it seems there were these men going up into the hills after edible moss, you see, and...") The teller can see the collector writing down the story. The dynamics would be different, I suppose, when a little group of cronies were gathered around a fire near a sheepfold, passing the wee hours of the night.

I'm not apologizing for the texts of folktales, just acknowledging an adjustment that one may have to make. The stories are easy to read rapidly, but if one does read them thus, the way one would read a blog posting, it's not the fault of the story if it doesn't get under our skins. Some people might want to read the stories more like reading a poetic reverie -- aloud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 Feb 23 | 03:52PM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2023 05:29PM
PS Platypus, have you seen Andrew Lang's introduction to Kirk's Secret Commonwealth? It's a while since I looked at this, but at the time I wondered if Lang's remarks had influenced Machen, maybe even given him the idea for the Little People as "atavistic survivals."

[archive.org]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2023 10:01PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PS Platypus, have you seen Andrew Lang's
> introduction to Kirk's Secret Commonwealth? It's
> a while since I looked at this, but at the time I
> wondered if Lang's remarks had influenced Machen,
> maybe even given him the idea for the Little
> People as "atavistic survivals."
>
> [archive.org]
> ves/page/n1/mode/2up

I've been trying to trace the origin of this idea, and it goes back rather further than Lang. In NORTHERN ANTIQUITIES (1770), P. Mallet speculates that certain fairy and dwarf legends are inspired by a people related to laplanders, or shorter stature, but more skilled in metals.

Later, in his LETTERS ON DEMONOLOGY (1830), Walter Scott writes

“there seems reason to conclude that these duergar were originally nothing else than the diminutive natives of the Lappish, Lettish, and Finnish nations, who, flying before the conquering weapons of the Asæ, sought the most retired regions of the North, and there endeavoured to hide themselves from their Eastern invaders. They were a little, diminutive race, but possessed of some skill probably in mining or smelting minerals, with which the country abounds. Perhaps also they might, from their acquaintance with the changes of the clouds, or meteorological phenomena, be judges of weather, and so enjoy another title to supernatural skill. At any rate, it has been plausibly supposed that these poor people, who sought caverns and hiding-places from the persecution of the Asæ, were in some respects compensated for inferiority in strength and stature by the art and power with which the superstition of the enemy invested them.”


And of course we know from the 1691 text of THE SECRET COMMONWEALTH, that flint arrowheads are associated with fairies in Scottish folklore, though a scientist would instead associate them with the real prehistoric inhabitants of Britain, whoever they were.

Later in the 19th century, these prehistoric inhabitants came to be identified with the "Turanians". Originally this was a theory of language, but with time came to be thought of as a racial category as well, with the Finns, Laps and Sami people, being classified as types of "Turanians".

Machen references "Turanians" a number of times in his fiction, so he is obviously familiar with these ideas. I don't think Andrew Lang ever used the term "Turanians", so I would say that Machen did not get his ideas exclusively from Lang.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2023 12:34AM
Here is "The First Metallurgists" -- a rather elaborate, and I suspect, fanciful, development of the "Turanian" theory. I don't know if Machen ever read this specific article. It's from the WESTMINSTER REVIEW (1875) and starts at page 144. It associates Turanians with goldwork, copperwork, stone monoliths, and serpent worship.

[books.google.com]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2023 09:25AM
Do you contemplate an essay, Platypus? This is intriguing.

If you want to post even an interim report of your work, you might consider Christopher Tompkins's Darkly Bright site, which has posted some Machen criticism as well as a lot of reprints of work by him with comments from Christopher and from readers. Sometimes it's nice to let others know what one's working on even before the final presentation thereof, which can both attract help and let others know they may as well avoid duplication of effort if they are just thinking of starting on a topic. Your material as it is has told me more than I knew about the "Turanians," though I've been reading Machen for over 50 years.

From the index, it appears that there is a little bit about Lapps & Lappish tradition in the University of Chicago Folktales of Norway book, ed. by Reidar Christiansen. The table of contents of that book (No. 5 in the series), by the way, shows these divisions of tales:

1.Historical Legends
2.Legends about Magic and Witchcraft
3.Legends about Ghosts, the Human Soul, and Shapeshifting
4.Legends about Spirits of the Sea, Lakes, and Rivers
5.Legends about Spirits of the Air
6.Legends about Spirits of Forest and Mountain
7.Legends about Household Spirits
8.Fictional Folktales

I'm just starting a reading. I think the idea is that the first seven deal with accounts that the storyteller believed to be true or that he/she believed had been believed, while the last group (marchen) are entertainments, typically longer, that are understood to be fairy tales.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25 Feb 23 | 09:26AM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2023 06:36PM
Yes, I have taken a few notes, and should probably post something somewhere before I lose my notes. Thank you for the suggestion.

I think you have sold me on the Norwegian volume.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2023 07:28PM
Platypus, if you decide to post the notes somewhere other than here or at Darkly Bright, please be sure to announce that -- I wouldn't want to miss what you have to say. I really thought Lang's edition of "The Secret Commonwwealth" might be Machen's inspiration -- and I suppose that's still possible, but you've found interesting things, for sure. I wonder how "Turanians" became the name used (by scholars?) for the Central Asians who theoretically were the ancestors of the Sami/Lapps, etc.

I don't know of a better edition of Norwegian folktales in English (only language I read) than Christiansen's "Folktales of Norway" in the Folktales of the World series from the University of Chicago, if you want some folkloristic background and plenty of stories too -- there are 82 numbered narratives.

In case it would be of interest, here's a review I wrote for "Beyond Bree," the monthly Tolkienian newsletter, two or three years or so ago, of a new translation of tales. This book, though, has just 60 stories and lacks the information about the collecting of specific stories that you get with the Christiansen book from the University of Chicago. The 1960 Viking Press book that I mention below is a treasure from my childhood, copiously and evocatively illustrated. But anyway, I thought the review might offer further enticement for the exploration of Norwegian folktales. I cite Machen, by the way!

THE ASH LAD AND THE HOBBIT:
A NEW TRANSLATION OF NORWEGIAN TALES SHOULD APPEAL TO DWELLERS IN TOLKIENDOM

by Dale Nelson

Reviewed here: Peter Christen Asbjørnsen and Jørgen Moe, The Complete and Original Norwegian Folktales. Translated by Tiina Nunnally, with a foreword by Neil Gaiman. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 2019. ISBN 978-1-5179-0568-2. xxi + 320 pages. Hardcover. $34.95.

Humor and terror. Doesn’t that describe much of the appeal of The Hobbit? Three malevolent trolls are tired of mutton and thinking hobbit might be a pleasant change, when Gandalf sets them quarrelling and cuffing to our amusement. The Mirkwood spiders are persistent and nasty, and the dwarves are bound up tightly in their webs in an already suffocatingly dim forest, but Bilbo resourcefully concocts jeering, funny rhymes that infuriate the execrable creatures and lure them away from the hobbit’s companions. Comically flattering verbal resourcefulness marks burglar-Bilbo’s dialogue with the thoroughly wicked dragon in the depths of the Lonely Mountain.

Jørgen Moe (1813-1882) set himself to identify the characteristics of specifically Norwegian folktales and, according to Richard M. Dorson’s Foreword to Folktales of Norway (1964), “humor and terror” were the paired qualities that Moe settled on. “[Moe] spoke of the balance between humor and terror, arising from a self-assured people living on a harsh terrain.”

The Ash Lad – the unpromising youth who makes good, robbing the troll, swigging the magic drink that enables him to wield the sword with which to cut off the troll’s heads – “exemplified the confidence of the [peasant] in a mysterious power on high guiding his destiny.” Similarly, Bilbo learned to trust his luck as he journeyed through a wide world of deep forests and high mountains populated by dangerous inhabitants.

Thus, while one might not find abundant details in the Norwegian folktales that might otherwise have seemed to have been sources for Tolkien, the tales often convey, in their brief space, an atmosphere of humor and terror akin to that which pervades The Hobbit.

Peter Christen Asbjørnsen (1812-1885) and Moe were to Norway what the Grimms were to Germany, and indeed Asbjørnsen met the brothers. The Grimms’ Children’s and Household Tales first appeared in 1812, while the Norwegians’ first collection was published in the next generation, in 1841. The Grimms’ seventh edition dates to 1857, and the fourth Asbjørnsen and Moe edition came out ten years later. It is that edition that Tiina Nunnally, praised for her translations of Sigrid Undset’s great Kristin Lavransdatter trilogy, has rendered here, the only complete edition of the two collectors’ book in English.

The English version of Asbjørnsen and Moe that Tolkien knew was George Webbe Dasent’s translation, Popular Tales from the Norse (1859). Readers of Tolkien’s “On Fairy-Stories” will remember him quoting from its introduction. Nunnally found that Dasent’s versions of the tales showed an “uneven and inconsistent” style and an undue use of British terms, so that lefse becomes “bannock,” etc.

“Of greatest concern,” Nunnally found, was “the loss of the storytelling voice that Asbjørnsen and Moe were so careful to instill in the Norwegian, a “clear and deceptively simple narrative style that was meant to be read aloud….The stories are filled with humor, rhymes, and an abundance of detail.” Moe sought to convey “the pure epic narrative style whose sole purpose is the joy of observation.”

Here are “Katie Stave-Skirt” (“Katie Woodencloak” in Dasent), “Ragged Cap,” “The Maiden on the Glass Mountain,” “Ash Lad, Who Competed with the Troll,” “The Twelve Wild Ducks,” “East of the Sun and West of the Moon,” “The Mill That Keeps Grinding at the Bottom of the Sea,” “The Master Maiden,” and more to the total of 60 tales (a few of them jocular and even impious or very brief). In his draft letter to Mr. Rang (#297), Tolkien wondered if the place-name Moria might derive from another of the Norwegian narratives, “Soria Moria Castle.” The tale itself, Tolkien said, “had no interest for me.” To which I am tempted to respond: bosh.

There is an essay by Arthur Machen in his book Dog and Duck that might give insight into the question of why folktales such as these seem to convey a sense of antiquity that isn’t merely a function of their coming from a bygone agrarian culture. Machen suggests that people -- he is thinking of Western people – once were well-acquainted with a quality of light-heartedness or mirth or joy. “It was not a thing that depended upon external good fortune or ill; people had hard times….in plenty in the Middle Ages.” Back then, the “notion of a joke was primitive and practical.” But the sense was that “the times were on the whole in joint, and not out of joint.”

But by the time of Shakespeare, we find less of that quality. Humor we may have indeed in Shakespeare and in Dickens and Machen’s contemporary W. W. Jacobs. But this humor “has nothing much to do with a light heart; its savour is not far removed from sadness,” because by now the world is “seen to be all wrong,” though “even its tragedies may have something wildly funny about them.”

Perhaps Machen was on to something. Asbjørnsen and Moe collected their stories from rural folk who may have belonged, imaginatively, to the older world. These stories may extend to us and our children, when known and loved, the chance of experiencing, at least to a degree, that older consciousness.
The Complete and Original Norwegian Folktales includes the forewords to the second, third, and fourth Norwegian editions and part of the introduction to the second Norwegian edition, plus Notes on the Regional Collection Sites of the Tales.

This new book from the University of Minnesota is, then, a fine publication. However, I will also keep my copy of Norwegian Folk Tales as translated by Pat Shaw Iversen and Carl Norman (Viking Press, 1960). That book was generously illustrated by Erik Werenskiold and Theodor Kittelsen. Their late-19th-century pictures give us the definitive renderings of the tales’ trolls, forests, mountains, princesses, and the Ash Lad. Some stories not found in the Minnesota volume are included, though quite a few that are in the Minnesota volume are not included in the 1960 book. The Iversen-Norman selection was reprinted in paperback by Pantheon in 1982 and is still in print.

The Complete and Original Norwegian Folktales, as a manufactured item, is of more than acceptable quality. It’s bound in full cloth of a hunter green color, although I believe this type of fabric is apt to show signs of wear if the book receives a lot of library use. The pages are not sewn in signatures, but glued to the spine. The book looks good and feels good in the hand but isn’t pricey. The dustjacket and two interior pages provide a glimpse of Kittelsen’s art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25 Feb 23 | 07:30PM by Dale Nelson.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2023 12:46AM
You mention Dasent's translation, reminding me I have not yet read it.

Max Muller, a philologist, began popularizing the idea of a Turanian family of languages circa 1850. He derived it from the land of Turan, which is described in ancient zoroastrian texts as an enemy land northeast of Iran, occupied by nomadic tribes.

But how small the world is. Before I read Machen, I have no recollection of ever meeting this word. But now, as I glance at the intro to Dasent's 1859 volume, I find he mentions Max Muller, Turanians and Turan.

Muller never intended it as a racial classification, though nomadism was cited in the theory as a reason that Turanian language and religion became so widespread. This in turn led to a later association with vaguely Mongolian features. I think the Sami people of Scandinavia can also be vaguely linked by this unscientific association.

Down Syndrome children, whose features have been called "mongoloid", were I guess sometimes thought to be fairy changelings, as we know sometimes happened with "special" children in British folklore. But Wales also occasionally produces perfectly healthy people who seem to have a vaguely Asian or exotic appearance. Catherine Zeta Jones is an example.

And so in Machen's work, we have references to the almond eyes of Helen Vaughan and others. Evidence of Turanian and/or faun and/or goblin blood.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2023 09:04AM
There is an article at britishfairies.wordpress.com, on Machen and Turanians, entitled "Not All Nymphs Are Nice ... [etc.]". It has a few interesting quotes and references.

I don't necessarily agree with some of his interpretations. For instance, I don't think the Turanians in "The Turanians" are merely slightly exotic humans. I think the implication of the story, when viewed together with his other work, is that the grotesque children might not actually be children, and that the beautiful faunlike youth might also be more than he appears. I think Machen is hinting, however subtly, at the fantastic. I also think he removes some of the mystery and terror from "The Shining Pyramid" by assuming the troglodytes there encountered are merely troglodytes, with no other fantastic or supernatural powers. Human sacrifice implies sorcery.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2023 01:49PM
Machen imagined the "Little People" in varying ways depending on the story he wanted to tell. In a couple of stories they are troglodytes who are survivals of an evolutionary offshoot of the main branch represented by modern humans ("The Black Seal," "The Shining Pyramid"). In other stories he has gone on to a more elusive concept that links them to poltergeists (e.g. The Green Round; and see his obscure piece about Mt. Nephin), etc. This variant appeals to me more than the atavistic survival one even though I have loved the atmosphere built up, the evocation of the Welsh-English border, in "The Black Seal" for many years.

[fanac.org]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2023 04:51PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Machen imagined the "Little People" in varying
> ways depending on the story he wanted to tell. In
> a couple of stories they are troglodytes who are
> survivals of an evolutionary offshoot of the main
> branch represented by modern humans ("The Black
> Seal," "The Shining Pyramid"). In other stories
> he has gone on to a more elusive concept that
> links them to poltergeists (e.g. The Green Round;
> and see his obscure piece about Mt. Nephin), etc.
> This variant appeals to me more than the atavistic
> survival one even though I have loved the
> atmosphere built up, the evocation of the
> Welsh-English border, in "The Black Seal" for many
> years.
>
> [fanac.org]

The folktales are variable, so I don't see why the fiction should not be variable as well. I prefer to read the stories as consistent - different glimpses of a wider truth - like the six blind men groping about the elephant. I don't say that's the only way to read it, but I find Machen's tales more interesting that way.

In "The Great God Pan", we encounter both an invisible nature spirit or "fairy" (Pan himself) as well as a supernatural monster (Helen) who is also a descendant of humans, in this case of modern humans. Why should this be seen as a contradiction? They are two aspects of the same complicated picture. Why should not a similar confusion or ambiguity apply to descendants of the prehistoric peoples who preceded the Celts? Machen's little people may be atavistic survivals, but they are also devil worshipers, and maybe descendants of devils as well.

In "The Black Seal", the "special" boy has powers that can only be called supernatural. He is a descendant, perhaps, from ancient Turanians, and also perhaps from modern humans. Does that prevent him from having fairy and/or devil heritage as well?

Among the theories presented in "The Terror" are (1) fairies; (2) enemies working underground; and (3) nature turning against man. Do these theories actually contradict each other? Is there no connection drawn, in Machen's work, between fauns, subterranean little people, and nature spirits? The "nature turning against man" theory seems to have the last word, but then, a few years later, he is once again blaming a very similar phenomenon on the little people.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2023 05:29PM
Platypus, would you be comfortable with the approach you describe being characterized as "Machen's Little People Mythos"? Doing so would invite readers to consider the individual stories not only as they stand but as units in a corpus of texts. Whereas I would lean, as I said, towards seeing the stories in a non-Mythos way, with Machen working with whatever materials suited his purposes for that particular one.

Where I'd perhaps transgress my own principle is in looking to see if his stories could be reconciled with each other in terms of ideas that are prevalent in Machen's writing even outside his fiction, e.g. what one might be able to work out as being Machen's "theory" of evil.

But would it be a good idea to move further discussion on these things to a Machen thread?

Is anyone else here, other than Platypus and myself, interested in reading folktales? Stories in the genre of the macabre sometimes refer or allude to the study of folklore, and it seems it would be interesting to get a sense of what it's meant to be a folklorist in the past 200 years. We must be coming up on the bicentennial of classic collections such as the Grimms'.

I'm continuing a reading of Christiansen's Folktales of Norway and finding those elements of humor and terror....

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2023 09:08PM
Platypus wrote, "You mention Dasent's translation, reminding me I have not yet read it."

I've read the Norwegian tales in (a print-on-demand edition of) "Popular Tales from the Norse." I got that edition largely because of Tolkien's reference to it in "On Fairy-Stories."

What with Tolkien's interest, I suppose I should get the complete series of "Color" Fairy Books attributed to Andrew Lang. (My understanding is that his wife actually did much of the writing of the versions of the stories.) I have only two of them -- common Dover reprints.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 27 February, 2023 10:40AM
The Internet Archive permits online reading of "Folktales of Norway," although it is still under copyright. I think you have to "renew" the book every hour.

[archive.org]

I have just read one of the stories there, "The Tufte-Folk on Sandflesa." It was delectable -- eerie and exciting, a tale with both wonder and fear. The treacherous brother finds that it's not only the rich and merry tufte-folk who visit this elusive island....

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 27 February, 2023 05:36PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus wrote, "You mention Dasent's translation,
> reminding me I have not yet read it."
>
> I've read the Norwegian tales in (a
> print-on-demand edition of) "Popular Tales from
> the Norse." I got that edition largely because of
> Tolkien's reference to it in "On Fairy-Stories."
>
> What with Tolkien's interest, I suppose I should
> get the complete series of "Color" Fairy Books
> attributed to Andrew Lang. (My understanding is
> that his wife actually did much of the writing of
> the versions of the stories.) I have only two of
> them -- common Dover reprints.

I have all-but-one, I think. One problem with Lang's fairy books is that they are sometimes censored - not too seriously for the most part - to appease Victorian-era parents.

I was just now reading Dasent's version of "The Master-Maid", and at one point said to myself "Gosh, I don't remember that particular detail"; and then, upon checking with Lang's version in THE BLUE FAIRY BOOK, found that it had indeed been changed.

Also, within the past year, while looking into "little people" stories, I read Kennedy's 1866 version of "The Fairy Nurse"; and, upon comparing Lang's version, I found all references to breastfeeding removed. Which alters, or at least conceals, the entire motive of the fairies for kidnapping the farmer's wife; and also changes the meaning of the title ("nurse" = "breastfeeder")

I have long been aware of the alterations to "The Princess in the Chest", in which a final gruesome paragraph is removed, and replaced with half-joking speculations as to the benign fate of the missing sentries. Not that I really mind Lang's version, since even as a child I understood the final paragraph was a joke, and that in fact the sentries had been horribly done away with.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 27 February, 2023 06:35PM
You know the Lang books better than I; interesting comments. I wonder if the uneasiness you detected about breastfeeding was more a social thing (women of a lower class being hired to nurse the infants of more genteel folk) or was more about the exposure of an intimate part of a woman's body -- although I think some of the women in the drawings in the Lang fairy books are nude or only partially draped, right? Perhaps the matter was partly one, partly the other, and partly something else.

I've just read about the Oskorei in Christiansen's "Folktales of Norway." This is a troop of noisy rushing dreadful spirits (the "wild hunt" idea) -- and somehow I don't think it was till now that I thought to wonder if Tolkien's horse-riding Ringwraiths might owe something to the Oskorei.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 27 February, 2023 10:01PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
> I have just read one of the stories there, "The
> Tufte-Folk on Sandflesa." It was delectable --
> eerie and exciting, a tale with both wonder and
> fear. The treacherous brother finds that it's not
> only the rich and merry tufte-folk who visit this
> elusive island....


I just read and enjoyed it. Two different kinds of "little people". I guess the first kind are mountain fairies, even though they are currently seafaring. Thanks for the suggestion.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 28 February, 2023 12:35AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the uneasiness you detected
> about breastfeeding was more a social thing (women
> of a lower class being hired to nurse the infants
> of more genteel folk) or was more about the
> exposure of an intimate part of a woman's body --
> although I think some of the women in the drawings
> in the Lang fairy books are nude or only partially
> draped, right?

The illustrator started with the barest hint of a topless mermaid in the first volume, and got gradually more daring.

But it may be more a squeamishness about bodily functions, than an attempt to deny that women have breasts.

Or maybe just that the translater/adaptor, the editor, and the illustrator, were not entirely on the same page.

Or maybe just a calculated trade-off. If one wants to get away with a few naughty pictures, it might be best to make sure the text is clean.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 28 February, 2023 10:14AM
I wonder if there are any really great libraries for researchers into Victorian publishing, such that valid generalizations about the illustrations in books of fairy tales, etc., could be made. To start with, do we even have a good bibliography of what was published during the 1837-1901 period, in the genre of fairy tales and fantasy -- whether marketed as for children or children and adults or adults? We'd have to limit the inquiry by nationality, too, to keep it manageable, I suppose -- so one could aim at books published in London. I wonder! My guess is that some people (present company excluded) make assumptions on the basis of insufficient information.

That "Victorian period" too covers a long time in the history of publishing. What might be the case in the 1840s might not be so in the 1890s.

Likewise the style with which the stories were presented. I have the impression (!) that a fair bit of folktale material published in the period was "written up" in a more literary style than that of the original tellers. Conversely, some of it might be burdened by being written in a dialect style intended to suggest the original teller, but producing an effect of quaintness not really appropriate for serious use.

My understanding is that the Norwegian collectors of folktales had to make decisions about how to print the stories; there was the "landsmaal" or peasant Norwegian that was different from the Norwegian of the educated and urban Norwegians. I know next to nothing about this. It seems to me I might have read that Sigrid Undset, in writing her famous (and excellent!) Kristin Lavransdatter historical novels, drew upon the landsmaal. By the way, those three books are not "supernatural fiction," and yet early in the first one, Kristin sees one of the Hidden People. See pp. 16ff. here:

[archive.org]

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 2 March, 2023 10:52PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus, would you be comfortable with the
> approach you describe being characterized as
> "Machen's Little People Mythos"?

Well, my approach isn't confined to little people. I think I agree with it, but I'm a bit unsure what baggage others might attach to the word "Mythos". I would rather say than when I enjoy an author, I would rather suspend disbelief in all of his stories at once, rather than one at a time, unless there is a good reason not to.

At least in his London stories, Machen seems to encourage this approach by having semi-recurring characters. Dyson appears in "The Red Hand", "The Shining Pyramid", "The Inmost Light" and "The Three Impostors". Villiers appears in "A Wonderful Woman" and "The Great God Pan". Phillipps appears in "The Red Hand", "The Three Impostors" and "The Lost Club". Austin appears in "The Lost Club" and "The Great God Pan." Davies, one of the imposters from "The Three Impostors", gets a mention in "The Inmost Light", when Dyson is mistaken for Davies.

Ambrose from "The White People" seems to be the same person as the Recluse from "Hieroglyphics". Not sure what the connection is to Ambrose Meyrick from 2 other short pieces.

I've played with the idea that Helen from "The Three Impostors" is the same as Helen from "The Great God Pan". But I cannot find strong evidence for or against the idea. But of course, both are diabolically evil and involved with cult activities. What her connection is to Helen Lally and Helen Leicester (seeming innocents), from the stories she tells, is unclear.

I like looking for these cross references and connections, though I don't know if in the end they prove anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2 Mar 23 | 11:09PM by Platypus.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 3 March, 2023 09:04AM
I'd been aware of Machen's re-use of some names, but I don't remember seeing a compilation of data like yours before. I suppose Machen's reasons for the repeated use of the names could have been whimsy or, on the other hand, a serious building-up of a layer of meaning not obvious to casual readers, or something in between these extremes. Or just convenience -- why not reuse names he liked? Hmm!

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 3 March, 2023 05:28PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd been aware of Machen's re-use of some names,
> but I don't remember seeing a compilation of data
> like yours before. I suppose Machen's reasons for
> the repeated use of the names could have been
> whimsy or, on the other hand, a serious
> building-up of a layer of meaning not obvious to
> casual readers, or something in between these
> extremes. Or just convenience -- why not reuse
> names he liked? Hmm!

There might be something to what you say. I cannot discern a connection between Mr. Vaughan from "The Shining Pyramid" and Helen Vaughan from "The Great God Pan". Nor can I discern a relationship between Mr. Vaughan's ancestor Meyrick Vaughan on the one hand, and Helen Vaughan's artist victim Arthur Meyrick on the other hand. I can discern no connection between Arthur Meyrick on the one hand, and Ambrose Meyrick and his father Nicholas Meyrick, on the other hand. Dr. Phillips (from "The Great God Pan") is evidently a different person from Dyson's friend Mr. Phillipps (from "The Three Impostors", "The Red Hand" and, perhaps, "The Lost Club"); note the different spelling.

But I still think, for instance, that Ambrose Meyrick from "The Secret Glory" is the same person as "Ambrose the recluse" from "The White People"; and as "the Hermit" from "Hieroglyphics".

Flipping through "The Secret Glory", I notice that a number of fictional texts are listed, including "The Olive of Athene" by "Davies"; a third "Davies" reference, also linked to pagan interests ("a daring but most brilliant book which promised to upset the whole established theory of mythology").



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 3 Mar 23 | 06:26PM by Platypus.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 3 March, 2023 08:22PM
In any event, a tardy birthday acknowledgment to Machen, born on this day 160 years ago. Yet this evening I will hoist some Dragon's Milk stout to his memory (a drink I also open on Tolkien's birthday).

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 9 March, 2023 08:32PM
About halfway through "Folktales of Norway" ed. by Christiansen in the University of Chicago series, I've noted these as ones I particularly liked.

3.The plague as an old hag is ferried across a river
19.The Finn Messenger
21.The midnight Mass of the dead
22a.The human soul out wandering as a mouse
27.The tufte-folk on Sandflesa (mentioned here already)
34.The old troll and the handshake
37.The prospects of the huldre-folk for salvation
38.The origin of the huldre-folk: the huldre minister
40.The changeling betrays his age
47.Escape from the huldre-folk (rather, non-escape) – really intriguing
50.Married to a hulder
53a.The Christmas visitors and the tabby cat

After this book, which I'm not in a hurry to finish -- the next one may be "Folktales of Japan" ed. K. Seki.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 11 March, 2023 07:02PM
I'm not reading through it in order. I'm jumping around, as I usually do with folk tales.

I've read other stories (from Britain/Ireland) about changelings betraying their age. This may bias me to some extent, but I cannot help thinking that someone messed up this version slightly, by improper foreshadowing the age and nature of the changeling. Typically, the protagonist is the mother, who knows that her true child was born only a few years ago. Hence, when the changeling is tricked into admitting that it was is decades or centuries old, it also betrays the fact that it is not her true child, but, in fact, a changeling.

But in this version, it is already taken for granted that the changeling is so old that no-one knows it true origins. Its mother is apparently out of the picture. The problem has less to do with uncertainty that it is a changeling, than that locals are afraid to kill it, and don't know how. The wise woman's trick has as much to do with telling the townspeople how to kill it, as with tricking it to betray its age.

Admittedly, this version is less disturbing than other versions, as it is less closely connected to child abuse or child-murder of those suspected of being changelings, which is a disturbing implication of this kind of legend.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 12 March, 2023 05:37AM
"The Finn Messenger" is curious as, along with "Driving out the Snakes" it is an example of the association of Finns with sorcery. I recall, this was one of the points in favor of the "Turanian" theory which associated the sorcerous little people with memories of a prehistoric Finno-Ugric stock. For instance David MacRitchie comments on it in his TESTIMONY OF TRADITION (1890).

I also came across, in Robert Keightley's FAIRY MYTHOLOGY (1828), the Danish story "Kallundborg Church", which is very similar to 2a and 2b in this volume, except the hero is the Danish chieftain Esberne Snare, and the troll whose name is to be guessed is named "Fin". That version managed to get translated into English before these Norwegian versions were even collected in Norway, much less printed in Norway. Keightley claimed that Scandinavian trolls were diminutive, in contrast to Icelandic ones, but that generalization does not seem to apply to Norwegian trolls, judging by this volume. I'm not sure Fin was originally diminutive either, given his association with cyclopean feats of architecture. Still, Fin and his family do live inside a hill, which might imply small size given the constricting nature of tunnels.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 12 March, 2023 06:17PM
I'll mention a book I have seen and looked into, but not read:

Rockwell, Joan: Evald Tang Kristensen : a lifelong adventure in folklore, Aalborg University Press, Danish Folklore Society, 1982.

Re: Weird Folklore
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2023 07:50PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus wrote, "You mention Dasent's translation,
> reminding me I have not yet read it."
>
> I've read the Norwegian tales in (a
> print-on-demand edition of) "Popular Tales from
> the Norse." I got that edition largely because of
> Tolkien's reference to it in "On Fairy-Stories."
>
>
> What with Tolkien's interest, I suppose I should
> get the complete series of "Color" Fairy Books
> attributed to Andrew Lang. (My understanding is
> that his wife actually did much of the writing of
> the versions of the stories.) I have only two of
> them -- common Dover reprints.

I've read through most of the tales in this volume.

My focus was on finding tales of "scary/evil little people", since I've been writing a Machen-inspired list of such tales (my earliest find so far, in English, is "The Yellow Dwarf", which was translated into English in 1708, from a French 1790s original). I found there were few such "huldre folk" tales in this volume, either because the huldre folk were not little, or were not scary/evil, or both.

One of the traditional features of scary fairies is to make folks disappear. One thing I noticed in this volume is that we are often reassured that the kidnapped persons are perfectly happy living with the fairies. I guess this is reassuring to Norwegian parents who lost a child in the snowy winter. But it does undercut the horror element.

Some invite comparison with "Laura Silver Bell" by Sheridan Le Fanu, which is apparently based on a Northumbrian legend, and has a clear connection to other British fairy tales like "The Fairy Nurse". Le Fanu allows much of the horror of the fairy kidnapping to remain. In Le Fanu's tale, the grandeur of the fairy lord is illusion, and poor Laura is doomed to a life of squalor and degradation until the Day of Judgment. But Le Fanu's fairies are not little either. In fact, when they are not impersonating mortals, they are implied to be tall as the tree tops of the forests they haunt.

When the huldre-in this collection are allowed to be scary, we often find that they are not little. This seems to support one of the theories of the origin of little people tales, which they are ancient gods/demons grown small, and therefore, less scary. This competes with the theory that mainly inspired Machen -- that little-people tales are based on memories of a prehistoric priest class of shorter stature, that may have retreated into caves.



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