Hi,
I discovered Klarkash-Ton a few years ago and have been a huge fan since. I'm in the process of re-reading Tales of Zothique, my new favorite. Recently, after discovering that Chaosium had created a supplement for WotC's Dungeons and Dragons D20 system based on the fantasy world of Michael Moorcock's Eric of Melnibone, I wrote to Chaosium and suggested that they do a similar supplement based on Smith's lost worlds; Poseidonis, Hyperborea, and Zothique. I received an email back from one of the game designers saying that he had been trying for years to do something similar for Call of Cthulu without success and that maybe the lost worlds of CAS would lend themselves better to D&D.
I hope the designers from Chaosium actually do something along these lines. I personally would enjoy role-playing in Zothique.


I would also like to add that this is a great site. I have been visiting regularly for a couple of years now. Personally, I miss the sunflower-yellow hue of the home page.

One thing more... I wonder if Dr. W. C. Farmer has a manuscript entitled 'The Madness of Chronomage'.

Thanks.

Do not have such a manuscript, and never heard of it. "Chronomage" is

a term that does not sound like Clark (time-wizard). His term would

have been more esoteric and less obvious.

Dr. Farmer

In the postscript of the book Tales of Zothique published by Necronomicon Press. It mentioned that Smith had intended to write a tale entitled "The Madness of Chronomage", but had probably abandoned the story after having written "Xeethra" because the two stories were 'thematically similar'.

When I first read that postscript I found the idea that a 'lost' tale entitled "the Madness of Chronomage" might be floating around out there intriguing. And then when I read your post and discovered that there actually are 'lost' tales out there floating around, I just had to ask.

Charles,
You are of course right in the Postscript note.
My copy of Zothique was given to me by Carol Smith
many, many years ago, and, as is the way of
much-thumbed paperbacks, has disintegrated.
The conclusion you reach regarding Xeethra is
probably very good. I stand by my comment on the
use of the word "Chronomage" - For Clark to use
terms of transparent etymology is atypical.
Carol, on the other hand was an inveterate seeker
after "hidden meaning" in names - a perfectly
valid literary device; and in the last years she
was urging Clark to begin writing again, and,
as she was a prime mover in the publication of
this collection, certainly had some input. She
was a dear lady to me, but prone to hyperbole.
Several of us were hoping he would write again;
stories are more saleable than poetry - I, however,
was promoting a mature revival of his poetry --
I think it could have been quite amazing. But
America had swung so far from the roots that
held CAS upright as to be an unrecognizable
species to him. A poet who called his work
"Howl", and general celebrations of slime,
depravity, and filth were a thousand miles and
180 degrees out of sync with the spirit of a
"Star-Treader"--keep writing - new stuff will be out
when I can arrange it.

Dr. Farmer,
I have a big thick book from an old college lit class that contains Ginsburg's "Howl". I had to go retrieve it and re-read the poem after you mentioned it in your last post. I like some of the stuff done by the 'beat' writers; although, a lot of it seems very self-serving. The writers, that I've read, portray themselves as decadent hipster anti-heroes wandering through a surreal American landscape (sometimes mythic as in Kerouac's descriptions of America, sometimes hellish as in Ginsburg's "Howl") created and inhabited by other decadent hipsters. Trying to compare Howl to Star-Treader is like trying to compare Hip-hop music to Classical. You are right, Doctor, they occupy separate universes. I would much rather lose myself in one of Smith's short stories than make yet another attempt to finish Kerouac's Visions of Cody, especially if it is a Smith story never before seen. I am looking forward to reading your unearthed CAS material, whenever that may be.

I love the beats, for completely different reasons than I have for loving CAS. I asked earlier about his attitude to them as they share a common heritage (Baudelaire and the decadents)

Its interesting to see how common influences can turn out radically different successors.

Perhaps we can think of CAS as being the refined descendant and the beats being the barbarous ones.

Boyd.

P.S you don't 'know' Howl till you have heard Ginsberg read it.

I created a thorough map of Zothique earlier this year. If anyone wants it for gaming purposes, email me at geocorona@yahoo.com. Or if Boyd wants it for the site, I can send it to him.

George Hager wrote:
>
> I created a thorough map of Zothique earlier this year. If
> anyone wants it for gaming purposes, email me at
> geocorona@yahoo.com. Or if Boyd wants it for the site, I can
> send it to him.

yes please.

The map is now on the site here:

http://www.eldritchdark.com/art/inspired/zothique_complete.gif

its 163k 2550*1650.

Boyd.

Excellent map!

I second Francis' assessment of the map.

Jim

Outstanding!
This will be great for gaming and I've always wanted to use Zothique as a setting for D&D. Now I can.
Awhile back I had begun a tentative list of D&D monsters and creatures that would populate Zothique. I think I'll have to go back to it and make a serious attempt at finishing it.

The Eldritch Dark accepts RPG related CAS submissions.

Boyd.

P.S and CAS related RPG submissions.

Hello Boyd:

When did you hear "Howl" read by the poet?
I heard (and met briefly) Kerouac and Ginsburg in Berkeley in the 60's.
I was in graduate school in Berkeley from 61 - 63, and from 65 - 68.
I am afraid that I did not participate in the ethos that moved many
students younger than I in those days - ie, the "beat" generation, the
"free speech" movement, the "SDS", the "SLA" etc. ad infin. Tastes of
course vary greatly and for many reasons. I loved Clark first because he
was my friend, secondarily as an author. I remember first the man,
and the question to what extent and author may be known by his works
is a curious one and very much open to debate. The very nature of
the creative process (and why the ancients spoke of a "muse") is that
in that process, the artist very often generates and evokes wisdom and
truth on levels of which he not conscious. I well remember a lecture
by a very senior Robert Frost who had lived long enough for grad students
to be doing doctoral dissertatiions on his works, expressing amazement at
what meanings had been uncovered in his poems that he didn't know he
had put into them. He was being a bit sarcastic, but he had spoken
a great truth. The products of true creative genius are always greater
than the artist himself. The play (and film) "Amadeus" hints at this;
Dr. Lewis makes mention of it in writing about George Macdonald, and
Milton refers to it both in his writing and private correspondence.
"Howl" is a work forever frozen to a point in time, an era in American
history; "The Star Treader" moves on unencumbered across the cosmos.

You make some interesting points, Doctor Farmer, that I'd like to respond to:

"The very nature of the creative process (and why the ancients spoke of a "muse") is that in that process, the artist very often generates and evokes wisdom and truth on levels of which he not conscious."

I couldn't agree with this more.

" 'Howl' is a work forever frozen to a point in time, an era in American history; 'The Star Treader' moves on unencumbered across the cosmos."

With all respect, I don't think this is entirely accurate. "Howl," while in a sense a relic of a particular American era, is also among the works that consistently appeal to the particular mood of a particular age group, the alienation and sense of rebellion that is characteristic of adolescence and early adulthood. Among these works are the works of the Beats, particularly "On the Road," "Catcher in the Rye," "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas," "The Electric Kook-Aid Acid Test," and the poetry of Eliot and Rimbaud. I read most of these between the ages of 15 and 25, and found that most of my peers with any imagination and interest in literature were doing so as well. If you go into internet chatrooms, you will find people who are obviously college students talking about the same books. So I think that works like "Howl" will find an audience because they touch on a universal aspect of the human experience.

I have an recording of howl being read in 1959 some ten plus years before I was born. But it still feels live to me so I cant agree that it stuck in a particular time, or even place, seems relevant to me here in New Zealand.

Poetry is the most timeless of the written arts its raw humanity is understood from Cro-Magnon man to modern man.

B.

Francis' point about the age of the person who finds "Howl" touches
him, and Boyd's mentioning his age at reading reinforce my point about
"frozen in time" - I do not refer only to the "60's" - who continues
to find "hickory, dickory dock" a meaningful intellectual exercise
once beyond the nursery? I have found that as time has passed, many
things which I found moving and profound as a younger person, no
longer have that power - this is not to demean their importance at
that point in one's life - There are other works which can be
revisited again and again, and as one matures intellectually and
spiritually, continue to be sources of wisdom and wonder, and are,
indeed, inexhaustible resources: The Organ fugues of Bach; Shakespeare;
Milton;Spenser; Jonson; Tolkien; Lewis -- to mention just a few.
Even the satirical songs of Tom Lehrer are (at least so far) still
a delight to the new college student as well as those of us who
heard him "live at the Hungry I". Somewhere along the line,
the person who is growing moves beyond the phase of perpetually
misunderstood adolescence and its self-obsession and develops a
a life in which the transcendent becomes ascendant - Dr. Arthur
Bestor once wrote that there are two kinds of persons who reach
60: those with 40 years of experience, and those who have had
one experience, 40 times. I do not deny the power of the experience
one may derive from any poem that moves them, I would only suggest that,
historically when looking across the entire history of poetry from,say
the Psalms, through Homer and Virgil and on to today, an analysis of
the contemporaries of those such as I just mentioned will reveal that in the majority of cases those
works in which the poet is the center of the poem did not
generally survive the cut.

I am a newcomer to this message board, although not to the works of Clark Ashton Smith.

I cannot speak for others, but I come to the work of Ashton Smith precisely because it represents an alternative to the "human aquarium". As a Nietzschean, my view is that "man is something to be overcome". As few others have done, Ashton Smith has created a literature beyond time, a cosmic, extra-human poetry for a "Superhumanity" to come. On the other hand, the measure of mediocrity of a poem is the number of times the words "I" or "you" appear in it; how many "I"s, relatively speaking, does one find in the poetry of Shelley or Ashton Smith? The work of the "Beats" may or may not be tethered to a particular era in American history, but it is certainly tethered to a naive anthropocentrism, and thus is, to me, at least, "all too human".

Thanks for the comments on the map. I just sent a minimum (~84K) version to Boyd, just in case he doesn't want to keep serving the larger one.

It's would be nice to see an interest in CAS in the gaming community. There's always spillover into the literary community when that happens, even though some of it is parody.

And I don't mean to downplay the quality of parodies out there. http://www.s-p-o-n-g-e.com, a Lovecraftian parody, is one of my favorite sites.

its avalable here:

http://www.eldritchdark.com/art/inspired/zothique_complete2.gif

1800*1165 83k

When You brought up using Zothique as a setting for roleplaying I remembered that I had been playing around with that idea some years ago. It turned out my notes whern't very extensive but I put them up on this site

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/zothique

Perhaps I'll even get to do some serious writing on this. I guess it would be usefull to have some info on locations, important people, culture, history, creatures, spells.

Quit off topic, but while talking of roleplaying games, this is something else i wrote a while ago.

http://www.mysticages.com/thousand/legacy/

btw, thanks for a truly excellent site Boyd!

The map of Zothique is really quite good, Thanks!
I noticed that you've placed "Yondo" off to the side, as a sort of peripherally connected region. This idea seems pretty logical as the story involved, "The Abominations of Yondo" is quite similar in theme to the Zothique series. When I drew up a map of Averoigne I placed "Malneant" just outside the boundaries of Averoigne for the same reasons, It being quite similar in style and theme yet not part of the series proper.
I'm not familiar with role-playing games, but it seems to me that someone has already used Averoigne for this purpose. Anyone able to shed some light on this?
-Ron

The EldritchDark's "Art Inspired" area has some Averoigne files from a commercial ED&D (Expert Dungeons and Dragons) campaign, which has probably been long out of print. I never played ED&D, and today "ED&D" is only found on lists of obsolete acronyms.

I included Yondo on the map because the story is completely compatible with the later Zothique series, except that the continent of Zothique was never mentioned in Abominations of Yondo. Both worlds have dry desolation, forgotten layers of antiquity, necromantic magic, and a cataclysmic "edge of the world" off to the west. Though I'm certain that Yondo was the inspiration for Zothique, I'm not sure why CAS didn't refer to it as a Zothique tale (the Black Book list). Perhaps the fact that the name "Zothique" hadn't been determined when Yondo was written was reason enough; or that later he decided to have the ocean flow into the western cataclysm, rather than have it reachable by land.

Ron,
There was Castle Amber (Chateau d' Amberville) (X2) D&D expert module (by Tom Moldvay) based loosely on Averoigne I remember playing it in the 80's (before i had herd of or read CAS) and still have our copy. Some of its illustrations are in the art section.


The bibliography in the module recommends the following:

The Enchantress of Sylaire
The Colossus of Ylourgne
The Disinterment of Venus
The Satyr
The Beast of Averoigne
The Holiness of Azedarc
The Mandrakes
The End of the Story
A Rendezvous in Averoigne
The Maker of Gargoyles
Mother of Toads

The complete module (sans cover) is now available here:

REMOVED FOR COPYRIGHT REASONS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31 Dec 05 | 03:46PM by Boyd.

I hope the maps needed to play the Castle Amber adventure are added at some point in the future.
I've never read any of the Averoigne stories. Is the bibliography above a good list to start with? Are there other Averoigne stories that should be on the list?

Have a look here:
http://www.eldritchdark.com/misc/cycle/index.html#Averoigne

contains the list of the stories that make up the cycle and some other info.

Is anyone here familiar with the Arduin gaming system? Arduin is a fantasy gaming system similar to D&D. I've read that the creator of Arduin, David Hargrove(?), was heavily influenced by Tales of Zothique. I believe for awhile it was out of print, but now some Arduin materials are being published by Emperor's Games(?). I as yet have not read any Arduin literature and was hoping that maybe someone here could tell me more. Is the fantasy world of Arduin similar to Zothique?

Almost forgot...
thanks, Boyd, for the Averoigne info.

Charles asked about the list of Averoigne tales: the list of 11 stories is complete. "A Night in Malneant" is similar in style and theme, but does not directly mention Averoigne. There is also the poem titled "Averoigne" as well as others with a similar super-romantic mediaval theme. The problem with this series is that tales are scattered here and there throughout CAS' many books. If you can assemble all the books, I suggest the following order which is based on the internal chronology of the tales (as far as this is possible)

A Night in Malneant (a sort of prologue to the series)
The Maker of Gargoyles
The Holiness of Azedarac
The Colossus of Ylourgne
The Enchantress of Sylaire
The Beast of Averoigne
Mother of Toads
A Rendezvous in Averoigne
The Mandrakes
The Satyr
The Disinterment of Venus
The End of the Story

-Ron

While I had never herd of the game system before today I looked at the http://www.arduin.com/ site.

I found no reference to or similarity with Zothique

I agree with Ron that "A Night in Malnéant" reads like an Averoigne tale and should be used as a prologue or pendant to the series. I would favor the latter, because it gives the impression of being set in the late 19th century, as if set amid the post-Poe Romanticisim of Charles Baudelaire or Paul Valéry.

Jim

Incidently, I would point out that Ron has more than earned his bones as an expert on the Averoigne series, having edited the long-delated THE AVEROIGNE CHRONICLES that Donald M. Grant has been listing as "forthcoming" since 1993, and which we may someday see. I've seen the proofs for this, with its introduction by Gahan Wilson and afterword by Donald Sidney-Fryer, and it contains all of the Averoigne stories plus "A Night in Malneant", along with the poem "Averoigne" and some additional poems that seemed related thematically. Now, if Bob Wiener at Grant would just step back from his goal of issuing a deluxe limited edition of Stephen King's next-door neighbor's physical therapist's grocery list, we might actually see this book appear. I think the plan is for it to be a companion to their edition of Lovecraft's AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS, which was one of the top contenders for the "Most Stupid Idea for a Book" contest in 1990, meaning it will probably retail at $100; however, perhaps he'll see the light and issue it as a $40 trade edition.
Best,
Scott

As Scott writes, Ron is the resident expert on Averoigne. I have written the publisher repeatedly and checked the web-site every month hoping for more news on this volume. After nine years, of reading, "Moving forward weekly", I am beginning to think that Scott might be right: we might have to wait till every cell on King's body has been analyzed before Grant sends this project to the printer. Ron must have the patience of a saint.

Jim

I would suggest that the Dying Earth RPG (from Pelgrane Press) might be a suitable system for Zothique gaming, modified to be less glib and more pessimistic.

Keith

Is that based on Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories? I loved those books when I read them almost 20 years ago. Like an idiot, I gave them away to a friend that I thought would enjoy them. I'm hoping they ended up in a used book store rather than in the garbage.

There is definitely enough similarity between the worlds to cross over, but I imagine any game mechanics that one is familiar and pleased with could be modified. The creator should read the entire Zothique cycle before attempting such a task, and it would be better to not taint the inspiration process with tales of Hyperboria or Averoigne.

The magics should all deal with necromancy, legerdemain, forgotten sciences, or demonic and extraterrestrial entities. Nature/elemental/Elvin-new-age-unicorns-and-crystal "magiks" should be be wiped and flushed down the toilet.

If anyone would like to contribute to an open-source Zothique roleplaying guide, I would be willing to assume the role as editor. My role as bad guy would be to edit the spelling and grammar, marry any almost-duplicate but slightly-conflicting contributions into something cohesive, and to alter or reject anything that conflicts with the CAS vision of Zothique.

Existing open-source d20 material can be pared down and used, as long as we follow the d20 licensing guidelines.

Some ideas for contributions:

Beastiary (The d20 monsters are not yet public domain, but a list of what is [or is not] found in the scenario would be kosher. Also, Zothique versions of creatures such as the lamia or salamander could be created.)

New Player Classes (or restrictions on common existing ones)

Campaigns

Spells (also not yet public domain in d20, but a list of d20 spell names would be acceptable, as would original spells)

Guides to the deities or empires of Zothique

Artwork

Almost anything that adds detail to Zothique without conflicting pre-existing material, without violating copyrights, and without straying into other genres (eg., I would have to reject material featuring superheroes, twenty-first century time travelers, or samurai gunslingers in space).

=======

There wouldn't be much personal gain from this project, except for extensive credit given. Hopefully, the side effects will be:

A new group of people introduced to CAS.

A new group of people introduced to this website when they come to download the guide.

Increased interest in reprints of work by CAS.

A common resource for both gamers and authors.

I received no submissions for the guide, so I wrote and illustrated it myself. Any editorial input would be helpful, since I'm not good at editing my own stuff, and don't really consider myself a writer. Spelling, grammar, sentence structure, content, interpretation and technical errors are all open targets. I will credit those that help. Thanks for hosting it, Boyd.


http://www.eldritchdark.com/misc/zothique-d20v1.pdf

So that I won't have to keep harrassing Boyd, I've moved the work-in-progress to http://members.aol.com/geocorona/zothique-d20-v1.pdf

The final version (1.1), when complete, will be hosted here at the address posted previously.

Hey cool. I suggested something like this on the EnWorld board a long time ago, since Zothique is all in the public domain. I started reading through the stories (the somewhat recent Arkham Press softcover compilation version) and taking notes to fill out the world details. I think I got about half way through. I'll send you what I've got since I think I've got some stuff that you haven't covered yet. The goal was to make a kind of encyclopedic reference to people, places, and deities of the world. I've also got some ideas about magic, and I'll send that along as well The basic idea is that magic follows hermetic traditions, and different orders, all of which have access to different types of spells -- as opposed to standard D&D where everyone can cast every type of spell. Thus sorcerers, priests of Mordiggan, necromancers, demon summoners, etc. are all much more distinct. It's a bit shaky in current incarnation but might inspire some interesting ideas or be workable with some alterations.

I'll email you tonight and see what you think. Perhaps I can continue with the "encyclopedia" entries. I'll just need to remember where I left off.

If you can rewrite the magic system for Zothique without breaking the D20 balance, then it might work for a future version of the guide. I think such a major reworking of mechanics would require playtesting before it could be released, though.

Spells and spell casting have always seemed more prevalent in fantasy gaming than in any of the fantasy literature that I have read.

I think it should be harder for characters to be sorcerers in Zothique. Perhaps increase the experience points needed to advance in levels and reduce the number of spells to choose from. Yet, if a character wanted to follow the 'dark path', becoming a necromancer would allow him or her to advance more quickly (similar to Defilers in the AD&D Dark Sun world)and give them more spells to choose from. Of course, there would be a price to pay for learning the black arts, perhaps some form of deformity or curse (similar to Ravenloft) or an advanced rate of aging or perhaps Thasaidon could make sinister demands upon the necromancer.
Similarly, I think magic items should also be limited and hard won. But I suppose such things could be left up to the DM's discretion.

Sorry. I forgot to mention how impressed I am with the work G. R. Hager has done so far. Excellent job. It is exactly the kind of supplement I had in mind.

Thanks. The guys over at http://www.necromancergames.com have been giving the rules a thorough thrashing, and I think I'm approaching the final 1.1 version.

The latest (today's) version is at http://members.aol.com/geocorona/zothique-d20-v1.pdf

DM's will have to be familiar enough with Thasaidon to know he doesn't give away power for free, and think of their own crafty way of receiving payback.

Perhaps an answer to the arcane vs. divine spell issue would be to have certain arcane spells ALWAYS granted by the grace of a certain god, with no regard for the alignment of the caster, but always with a cost. This would make all spellcasters at least somewhat clerics, and help fuzz the border between the two as CAS did.

I just sent Boyd the final version. Changes since the first version:

* More details about each god.
* Improved statistical adjustments for necromancers and cannibals.
* Monster list replaced with a detailed explanation of Zothique-style monster selection.
* 5 monsters: Cyntrom Dragon, Ghorii, Crawling Members, Lamia, Vampire Beast
* various rewrites for clarity.

Until it appears here under "miscellaneous", it will be at the link in the previous post.

Version 1.2 is online now. Thanks Boyd!

New stuff:

1) 5 new monsters (actually old D&D conversions) from Scott Greene.

2) New illustrations for each deity.

3) Yuckla, the minor god of laughter forgotten in the previous edition.

4) Minor tweaks to the old text.

5) Astrology chart

6) Extensive denials of any intellectual property claims on CAS material, in order to satisfy Arkham House's concern that I was encouraging others to steal their trademark and copyright property.

What a pity I did not read this thread (the original post, at least) when it was posted. When Dungeons & Dragons 3E was first published, I created a mini-campaign for it set in Averoigne to break myself and other players into the D20 system. I set Averoigne in the Pyrenees and found it fascinating to use as a campaign setting. I had run a campaign for 2E set on either side of the Pass of Roncesvalles, but placing Averoigne SE of there was definitely "eerie." The players were familiar enough with the actual towns of the region, so Averoigne drifted over the mental play-map like a ghost. ("A spectre is haunting the Pyrenees, the spectre of Averoigne.")

I consider Zothique to be a very interesting setting, but whether there is sufficient material to generate an entire "game world," I can't say. Considering how well Averoigne did, though, I would guess that Zothique would do well for a single campaign or two. Unfortunately, Zothique is so "exotic" that it is not as readily adaptable as Averoigne, which can effectively utilize any real world Medieval European setting as a framework.

--Christian Leopold Shea