Re: Averoigne vrs. Zothique
Posted by:
Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 2 February, 2021 06:27PM
Kipling Wrote:
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> Oldjoe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is a really interesting discussion, but
> > reading the excerpt from "Lovecraft At Last"
> that
> > Kipling used to prompt the discussion, I don't
> > derive much that could be used to try and
> decide
> > which of the Averoigne or Zothique story cycles
> > could "be considered more consistently fine
> > literature."
> >
> > I'm not necessarily disagreeing with
> Lovecraft's
> > criteria in that statement, I just think
> perhaps
> > he doesn't capture the complete picture. For
> me
> > as a reader, if I'm going to spend time reading
> > something, I want to walk away from the
> experience
> > with some sort of insight into life, the
> universe,
> > and everything. That all sounds a little
> > pretentious, but it really just means I want to
> > hear from someone else what there is to be
> learned
> > from their real or imagined experiences. That
> > doesn't by any means exclude genre or pulp
> > literature, which can do the job as well as
> > anything.
> >
> > Speaking from that point-of-view, I rate the
> > Zothique stories as the more compelling
> > experience, simply because they form a loose
> > narrative of the end of the human experience on
> a
> > dying planet. Characters in the Zothique
> stories
> > don't necessarily achieve any great moral or
> > philosophical insights, but their adventures do
> > allow the reader to contemplate a wildly
> > imaginative end to the species. So after
> reading
> > the best of the stories from that cycle, I
> often
> > find myself pondering the possibilities: when
> the
> > human race does eventually reach the end of the
> > road, will we manage to do so with any sort of
> > grace?
> >
> > In contrast, the Averoigne stories are fun to
> > read, but I've never closed the book on one of
> > them and found myself prompted into much
> > reflection on what I just read. Good stories,
> but
> > not much to chew on afterwards.
>
>
> Interesting. So,the Zothique cycle has a
> thought-provoking resonance found only marginally
> in the Averoigne stories... I don't see a
> qualitative difference there because the Averoigne
> series, for me at least, reflects on cultural
> aspects within a self-contained fantasy world.
> Regarding the Lovecraft passage, a defense of my
> premise hinges on the phrase "plausible
> developments and motives". The excellent podcast
> wherein "The Charnel God" is read and discussed
> included a comment or two about the gullibility or
> lack of plausible motivation in the characters.
Lesssee...
That's the one about the young couple traveling. She's subject to something like narcolepsy to their great misfortune, she has an attack when they're staying i a city where Mordiggan, who claims all dead bodies--or rather, his priests do, "to do with as the wish...". GULP!
Sorta starts out like the Mary & Jospeh story, almost.
Now to my mind CSAS has at least three stories of lovers separate by circumstance, wh=ith the male trying to save his love, and this is the most successful rescue, as I recall. The others have the young man's love stolen by slavers while he's out hunting (or something), and the other has a magician steal the girl to make into a statue for his maze, I think.
Both of these end badly, although in one the couple gets to fish for pearls as zombies.
None of these were very strong stories, thematically--melodramatic for sure, but with that ole Game of Thrones curveball in that in two out of the three the heroes fail.
Not sure that I can recall specifically what was implausible, over and above the existence of dog-faced talking acolytes.
> It
> reminds me of a criticism of Ramsey Campbell-- the
> view that his protagonists are too passive. In
> contrast, the characterization in the Averoigne
> tales is fairly faultless. These are men and women
> motivated by their passions, fears, and creeds.
I thought the character development was very plausible for quasi-French people in the Dark Ages. No problems there for me.
> Smith loved Balzac's "Droll Stories", as well as
> Flaubert as a prose stylist, so I guess I am
> saying that by a close analysis of the dialogue,
> characterization, and plotting in the 2 series,
> one could support the argument that the Averoigne
> l tales fit more smoothly into HPL's criteria.
I'd say we're really starting to split hairs. I'll have to re-rad Averoigne, but I don't recall that the defining feature of this series was characterization so much as setting and mood.
>
> Incidentally, a story in the NY Post today about
> an astonishing discovery on a farm in Mexico
> parallels "The Disinterment of Venus," one of the
> best Averoigne fantasies. A statue of a female
> figure was uncovered by a farmer while clearing
> the land, and was eventually unearthed, intact, by
> 5 men. It is believed to derive from a Gulf coast
> culture that created many statues of strong women,
> but the farmer's initial research led him to the
> belief that it represented a "goddess of lust".
> Check it out for details and photos of the statue.
--Sawfish
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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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