The first time I introduced CAS to another person, it was The Double Shadow.
He came back and handed me the book, with eyes wide open, repeating like in a trance "and the space is no wider than the thickness of a wizard's pen."

Unfortuntely he had no energy to continue reading since his English wasn't very good.

Why don't you take on the task of translating Smith into your language, one of the Norse isn't it? Swedish I think? - It's a job that needs to be done.

I am no emperor of dreams.

One has to make choices in life.



If you follow every dream
You might get lost
If you follow every dream
You might
Get
Lost.

-Neil Young



And I have no desire being a parrot. I'd rather create my own worlds.

Furthermore, the Swedish language can't possibly do Smith's work justice. Different languages are adapted to their cultures' daily needs and thought patterns. We don't have the words to express his more subtle ideas.
There are a few translations, but I prefer reading him in English.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 05 | 02:11AM by Ludde.

Ludde wrote:

> If you follow every dream
> You might get lost
> If you follow every dream
> You might
> Get
> Lost.

Yes. Or you might tear in half.

> -Neil Young
>
> And I have no desire being a parrot.

Then why quote deeply uninspired rock lyrics? Sorry, but it's bad enough seeing English take over the world even when the English is good.

On Swedish and other more purely Germanic languages: I'd guess The Hobbit could work even better in translation there than it does in English. But not CAS.

"deeply uninspired rock lyrics?"

I don't agree.

But you're right about me being a parrot! Darned!

"I'd guess The Hobbit could work even better in translation there than it does in English."

I don't think so. It's a typical Anglo-Saxon work, is it not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 05 | 06:28AM by Ludde.

"deeply uninspired rock lyrics"

Freestanding those lines are of course very unsophisticated, and has no poetic value whatsoever. They are a part of the music so they really have to be considered in that context. It's an emotional thing and the music contributes to the vibrate value of the words, adding meaning. I find that those few words captures something important, right on the point.

I used those words simply because they remind me of a major problem in our Information Age: there are so many possibilities that it is very easy to get lost and mess up your life. Through the internet there is no end to the different roads and sources you can choose from. You have to forcefully limit choices. If you are able.

For example, may I ask how many of you spend as much time with your loved old books (like the Smith Arkham volumes!) as you did before the internet came on 15 or so years ago? Aren't the books just on the shelves collecting dust? Have you not been flooded by other things? I know I have. I have a love hate relationship to the internet. It sure steals a lot of time.

There are two purposes to translation -- Example:
Shakespeare is inimitable in English - you cannot match iambic pentameter comfortably in other tongues -
HOWEVER!!! The story outline can be retold, using appropriate domestic idioms.
Giuseppe Verdi created two of his best operas from Shakespearean plays - Macbeth, and Othello -- His only understanding of the plays was the story outline, the text does not survive, but the characterization does -
Similarly, the translations from the Greek of the novels of Nikos Kazantzakis, are every bit as good (though a different work in reality) as the originals - It is not uncommonly true that translating into English is better than out of it - I have been translating stuff for many, many years. Clark could be told in German, I am sure; I may undertake it myself to see how it goes. But I think the lilt of Swedish could be nearly hypnotic, say in something little like "The Garden of Adompha" for starters-- the principal purpose would be to make the tale itself accessible (we have done this for years with the great Myths, which no one has satisfactorily ever put into English - why? because they suggest things which are beyond language - read all you can about Baldur the Beautiful for example, and ask has any of it touched what we think and feel about him.
I find they do not. In fine, if people read the story in whatever tongue, they may be encouraged to try him in the original. Language can surprise you. Who would have thought that the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam would come out as well(and memorably) as it did? Old Persian to English - now there's a stretch --

Is Poe available in Swedish? if so, see what they did with it and tell me if was successful or not. Mark Twain's colloquial short stories have commonly translated well though I am not knowledgable about their value in the Nordic languages - I would like to have your opinion. Verbatim translations almost never work of course -
I use an example to explain this to students (of long ago):
"Puella pulchra illa gluteum maximum magnum bonum habet." literally, girl pretty that
bottom muscles large good has -- may be translated - That cute chick has really great buns!
It's lots of fun - give it a whirl - could open a whole new world, who knows?

Calonlan, I will read your text later. I have to go to bed now.

I just want to say something. I understand that a thing can be deeply inspired. But how can something be "deeply uninspired"? Talk about bad English.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 05 | 03:29PM by Ludde.

I am not sure what is meant by the phrase, but I'll Ghoti will enlighten us as to his thinking. I have found him to a sensitive and thoughtful writer (he has sent me many of his poems), and probably has something from his experience that caused him to juxtapose the terms.
In my day, the formal discipline of logic was taught (and used), and some sequences of words which seem on first glance incongruos, may, in a sense unconsidered, turn out to be insightful. Similarly, terms which seem insightful (I think, therefore I am - descartes' 'cogito ergo sum' for example), turn out not to hold up under detailed scrutiny. One hears a lot of sophomoric talk on College campuses from both students and professors, where sarcastic wit attacking (always) politicians, religion, or whatever is the current 'cause celebre' is mistaken for congent argument (largely because everyone in the room nods in agreement rather than because anyone has actually examined the content).

Years ago I translated a couple of short-stories from English, simply for my own pleasure; to get deeper into the texts and understand something about how they were built. (I had a short period when I dreamt of writing stories, but I just couldn't get it together.)

But I am really not the right person to answer your questions about translations into Swedish. I am mainly a visual person, enjoying pictorial art and sculpture, and that is one reason I read Smith's work, because of all the colourful images he presents. I have no literal ambitions, although I may have acquired more knowledge of English through my reading than most of my friends. And I can't tell good poetry from bad, I don't know how poetry is constructed; with Smith I simply enjoy those poems that include some unique imagery.

Poe is such a famous writer that all his work is available in Swedish. I may have read The Gold Bug in Swedish many years ago, but the other stories I read in English.
My father read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer aloud to me in Swedish when I was a little kid.
Much of Lovecraft is translated. I tried it but didn't like it. A translator inevitably adds his own perspective, and it had better be a very insightful person if the translation is to be good. Very few translations are good. Most are made by persons without specific life experiences in common with the writer, and include preposterous misunderstandings or violations of the writer's detailed intent or perspective. And no one understands Lovecraft's rich and personal visions better than Lovecraft!
A writer is truest in the original. Translations are for those who absolutely cannot understand the language.
But I agree that some translations made by persons of great ability and integrity (not just doing a translation job) may be major works in their own right. I read a Swedish translation of Homer's Odysseus which was powerful, and also famous for being so.

In comparison to Swedish the English language has many more adjectives. Warmer climates bring more time and room for artistic musings. In cold climates people have to spend more of their time simply surviving hardships, and also their bodies tense up and are less sensitive to their surroundings; the language adapts to this. In our modern technical age of comfortable living the differences in lifestyle between warm and cold countries have become less, but the cultural evolution is deeply rooted.

You are quite right about the geography affecting the language - Tolkien was particulary sensitive to this factor.
Clark's language indeed has the flavor of the sultry climes - which, concommitantly have a far greater reputation for decadence and depravity, than the virtuous, and morally strong North - In America, we have somehow managed to blend the whole business and distribute it uniformly - There are now, for example, New Orleans style voodoo shops in Helena, Montana. It's getting really interesting to watch here, sometimes feels like that declining days of Rome sometimes. Ah Well -
I'll bet the Tom Sawyer in Swedish was fun.

Ludde wrote:

> Calonlan, I will read your text later. I have to
> go to bed now.
>
> I just want to say something. I understand that a
> thing can be deeply inspired. But how can
> something be "deeply uninspired"? Talk about bad
> English.

It was an oxymoron.

>> "deeply uninspired rock lyrics?"
>
> I don't agree.
>
> But you're right about me being a parrot! Darned!

Then you can't disagree with me: you're only a parrot if you repeat something without appreciating its meaning and value. In case, I don't think you appreciated the value of the lyrics, which was low. The content was trite ("You can't do everything you want to and shouldn't try") and the form feeble. With the music they might work, but without it they didn't.

> > I'd guess The Hobbit could work even better in
> > translation there than it does in English."
>
> I don't think so. It's a typical Anglo-Saxon
> work, is it not?

I wouldn't say so. It's English in parts (pipe-smoking, the Shire, etc), but dwarves and dragons are Germanic rather than Anglo-Saxon and because Swedish and other languages are more purely Germanic than English is nowadays, I thought it might work better in translation in some ways.

One thing about reading in a language other than your own is that you concentrate more, and the work can become more powerful because of that.

Calonlan wrote:

> I am not sure what is meant by the phrase, but
> I'll Ghoti will enlighten us as to his thinking.
> I have found him to a sensitive and thoughtful
> writer (he has sent me many of his poems),

You must be confusing me with someone else. I've only ever sent you a limerick.

That's OK, I confuse easily in my dotage --
besides, we got to hear from you -- always a pleasure
drf

time for a new topic?

Ghoti23,
Both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are very very popular in their translations here in Sweden. I read them in English though (as usual). I have leafed through the Swedish translations, and many names of people and places and have literal translations which make them sound ridiculous (translation is somewhat of an art, and you can't just translate right off, but have to transform and adapt the text into the new language and its unique perspective). But as a whole you may be right that The Hobbit works linguistically well in Swedish.



One of the nice things of having more than one language is that you really take part of different dimensions and states of being.

For me English gives nuances, subtlety, musings, ecstatic visions, portentous deeps and heights.

Swedish gives me more of physical feeling (maybe because it's my native language), concrete power, stirring in the stomach, vibrations going through the neck up to the head in a sort of preparation for vigilance, sounds straightening the spine, for the body to leave words behind and act. More square and rugged, practical, less subtle.

Yes, Tom Sawyer in Swedish was a pleasure. I get this vision now of a picture I saw of Mickey Rooney; full of happy energy, carrying a fishing rod, whistling, and walking with high-lifted and steadfast strides.

Swedish is also a great language to swear in! FAN I HELVETES JÄVLAR!!!



By the way, was CAS always poised and balanced emotionally outwards? Did he ever loose temper over something or someone, and swear or scream right out? Or express tempered hatred or aggression?
I find The Dark Eidolon to be the most aggressive story I have ever read. But that wears off with age probably. Also maybe he canalised all his aggression through his art. Still, it would only be human if he also expressed it through his frame.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Dec 05 | 01:38PM by Ludde.

I never saw Clark in a rage, though he occasionally got a little testy with Carol's vivacious ramblings, and her atrocious driving in which the afterlife entered with great pain loomed before one the entire trip.

That he had had real anger in his younger days, was commonly with publishers, and the academic neanderthals. I do not think he was ever in a fight once he left grade school (where he had been picked on unmercifully -- the mischief he spoke of getting into in school was along the lines of peeking into the girl's outhouse). He was much beloved by the denizens of "old town" as their personal character, and woe to any who might cause him trouble. And, as I mention in my memoir, he presented a formidable public aspect.

You would enjoy John Ciardi's Browser's Dictionary book one (there are three), the introduction, relative to your comments on language. Also his excellent text, "How does a poem mean?" - for my taste the very best book on the whole rationale for writing poetry in the first place.
Clark valued this book highly, and I was delighted to share with him that I had discussed his work with John around the breakfast table in Syracuse (late 50's).