Reply to Ludde from 'human aquarium' thread - specific query:

To answer you fully takes far more time and space than may fairly be yielded at this moment. However, I may be able to suggest some signposts for dealing with Clark's thought across his lifetime. If you examine the history of the US at the time of writing of any specific piece, and Clark's personal history as well as it is known, you will gain some insight into where he was intellectually, spiritually (call it what you will) -- events and circumstances often color the poems one writes. It is rare that a poem works itself out over years in CAS' case. More commonly it is an eruption following some substantive event - or emerging conversely from the drone of endless grubbing for merest subsistance. The first War, the second War, the death of his parents in turn, the 180 degree turn his own place as a young writer took from the promising pre-war period to the post war tastes - all that he cherished in language seemed to be abandoned, including the gracious (and I should add High Church Anglican) mores inherited from his parents.
One cannot emphsize enough the impact of marriage (particularly to so volatile a personality), that most mundane and earthly paradise, upon Clark. During the time I knew him (and this can be testified unto by the handful of others who actually knew him), he always delighted in a good joke, a glass of wine (or whatever - though rarely beer), the beauty of the day (there is a photo I took on the beach at Carmel in "Sword of Zagan"), stimulating conversation, the serious recitation of poetry (his, and a few other writers - Thomas, Reid, Auden, Hopkins,de la Mare...) if merely to wallow joyously in sound as meanings beyond the mere ink blots on the page suffused the very air. I never knew him to be morose in company = the only terrors he experienced were outside his home: automobiles, crowds, traffic of all kinds, noise, escalators, and all things that told of the death of centaurs, dryads, and demi-gods, of the loss of myth and tragic heroism, and the navel-gazing of all the modern arts at that time. Remember Clark was 10 when Queen Victoria died; those first years, for all the penury of his youth were nevertheless filled by his parents with the sense of superiority of manners, courtesy, and breeding common to all Englishmen of the time.
Clark had, along with the respiratory illness through which the world nearly lost him, a Byronic sense that he was born to play a major part in the world, though it was time and not death as a young man that tore him from his world of youthful promise. And it was the peaks and valleys of a life more attuned than others, chastened by hard experience that made him, in the end, perhaps the most egalitarian of men -- yet seeming somehow in himself (as Lawrence wrote in the Seven Pillars...),
apart and above lesser men. I think it was this quality that disturbed some entrepreneurs along the way who otherwise might have helped him financially -- Those who met him, and found themselves turned away and not welcomed back, could never recall a negative or discourteous word or gesture; those whom he lowed as equals knew no invitation was necessary to an ever open door. I was never so honored as when I received his last gift to me inscribed - "To our spiritual son" - and so I remain -
and this last - try to avoid imposing your own world view upon Clark's work, findng in him vicarious justification for opinions which most likely do not match his. His mind can open doors for you, yours is to go through on your own journey - he would tell you to fight manfully on wheree'er the path may lead.
Your posts, sir, are most welcome - my door is open to you

It's a rhetorical question, but I can't help wondering: Does anyone here think that CAS would have been able even to stand Calonlan as he is in his dotage, let alone express a sense of spiritual filiation? Would there have truly been a warm spot in CAS's magnanimous heart for a sententious gasbag?

(Note, by the way, the more direct--dare I say "manful"--language, above as opposed to vague, pusillanimous hints and allusions).

It pains me to stoop to this person's level, and I hate to make such a post my last, but it's clear to me that this person and I cannot co-exist in this forum. I tried to mend fences, and at least be civil, but, as his reply to Ludde last night makes clear, he was having none of it. So, I shall say my farewells, since his personal acquaintance with CAS makes his perspective and presence here more valuable than mine. I can't fathom why anyone would want to listen to him on any other subjects (How choice, for instance to be accused of "raving" by an advocate of vigilante justice, and a "Christian" one, at that!), but I leave that to you. ;-)

My best wishes to all the rest of you.

Thank you, Calonlan. Informative and interesting. This long answer satisfies my wonderings for now. I was first going to add to my questions if CAS maybe felt isolated from the rest of the world because of his genius artistic ability and because of his isolation and illness making permanent marks in childhood, but you fillad that in. Interesting part about his English manners. A good breeding of manners is always an asset!

I do have strong world- and cosmic opinions. This may seem arrogant and self-assured, but at the same time it is a way of moving forward. These views are formed from information I take in from different sources, and from my own piecing together of what I see around me. Different writers inspire. Among them Clark Ashton Smith, although I don't necessarily think that he shares my own views because of that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 1 Dec 05 | 03:04AM by Ludde.

Your response is well noted and I think a good one. It is regrettable that our little antagonist is so insecure as to find it necessary to fulminate in this place. I feel sure you are on the right track for you - certainly no one should presume to dictate that path to another. My respect for you mounts. I am called at this moment to a Hospice patient who needs attention, but will write again in answer to your question as best I can.

Calonlan wrote:

> It is regrettable that our little antagonist
> is so insecure as to find it necessary to
> fulminate in this place.

I think there's been fault on both sides, tho I won't assign the proportions: you've been too waspish, Dr F, and Kyb' has been too thin-skinned. It's a pity you couldn't have got on better, because you both have interesting things to contribute and your posts complemented each other in an interesting way.

And if I haven't provoked you to sting me too, it would be interesting to know what CAS made of Wodehouse, and what you make of him too. Sean O'Casey (I think) called him English literature's performing flea, so Wodehouse used that (P.F.) as the title of one of his volumes of autobiography.

(I have been plagued with misspelling "that" as "taht" recently. Medieval monks used to think there was a special demon assigned to cause scribal errors, and I think I'm in need of exorcism.)

I am not interested in "sides", my patience with jejeune posturing is simply gone.

Now, as to important matters, -- I never discussed Wodehouse, nor heard Clark mention him - O'casey was admired - my memory may not serve me well at this point: who was it who wrote the great lines -- "Oh I have been to Ludlow Faire,
And left my necktie, god knows where..."

That Clark loved as Auden's Master 'n Bos'ns Song: ...some went upstairs with Marjorie, and some, alas, with Kate..."

and Cummings: "O Sweet Spontaneous Earth" with the lines "...how often have religions taken thee upon their scraggly knees, and pommelled thee that thou mightest conceive
Gods...yet true to thine incomparable couch of death, thy rhythmic lover, though answerest them only with Spring."

Such is the stuff of other writers that would bring the knowing chuckle or wise nod of agreement to his countenance.

I could not help, sad to say, observing on the front page Calonlan's last little cowardly servings of bile when I looked for this month's new contributions. This person's sheer pomposity and lack of self-insight (which includes a complete refusal, unlike myself, to accept any share of blame for the acrimony that has arisen) are so beneath contempt that they are not even worthy of comment. I will say, however, in parting, that, unlike him, I have tried to explain and defend my thought-processes and reasoning, instead of contenting myself with leaving puerile, half-veiled allusions and condescending comments that never deign to address specific points--no doubt, because their author is incapable of it. I leave to others to judge who is the "little" man here, and who is "posturing".

I apologize to the rest of the forum for propagating purposeless negativity, but I shall insist to the end that it did not begin with me, and that I tried in good faith to end it. As a reward, I received Calonlan's snide little remarks arising from his obvious misinterpretation of Ludde's comment about personal disputes. I am pleased that at least I was able to resume collegial relations with ghoti123, who has demonstrated admirable balance and maturity in this matter. You could learn something from him, Farmer.

Anyway, Farmer and I agree about one thing: It's time to move on to matters of actual importance. So, this is the truly last you shall hear of me on this forum; word of honor. Again, my best wishes to the rest of you.

Calonlan wrote:

> > I am not interested in "sides",

I meant "sides" in the sense of antagonists, not factions one has to choose between.

> my patience with
> jejeune posturing is simply gone.

"Jejune" has another interesting etymology.

> Now, as to important matters, -- I never discussed
> Wodehouse, nor heard Clark mention him -- O'Casey
> was admired - my memory may not serve me well at
> this point: who was it who wrote the great lines
> -- "Oh I have been to Ludlow Faire,
> And left my necktie,
> god knows where..."
>
> That Clark loved as Auden's Master 'n Bos'ns Song:
> ...some went upstairs with Marjorie, and some,
> alas, with Kate..."

Is this by Auden too?

There was a young queer of Khartoum
Took a lesbian up to his room;
But they argued all night
About which way was right,
And who should do what, and to whom.

Kyberean wrote:

> reward, I received Calonlan's snide little remarks
> arising from his obvious misinterpretation of
> Ludde's comment about personal disputes. I am
> pleased that at least I was able to resume
> collegial relations with ghoti123, who has
> demonstrated admirable balance and maturity in
> this matter. You could learn something from him,
> Farmer.

In case you're still reading: I think we can all learn, and have learnt, something from each other, which is why I'm sorry to see you go. But I also think you've been too thin-skinned, and Dr F has found it very easy to buzz out your weak spots.

I think this version is more in keeping with the supposed topic of this Forum.


A sorcerous vampire name dhoom,
took a succubus up to his room.
Where they argued all night,
over who had the right,
to draw away what from whom.

The girl I met in Eridu
Was kind beyond belief;
The hours that I spent with her
Were hours far to brief.

Where willows shade the river bank,
She urged that I recline.
She fed me figs and poured me full
Of pomegranate wine.

I told of force and time and space,
I told of hence and yonder;
I asked if she would come with me
To know my worlds of wonder.

She clasped her knees; her voice was soft:
"It dazes me to ponder
The blazing stars and tintamars,
The wirling ways you wander!

"You are you and I am I,
And best that you return.
And I will stay in Eridu
With all this yet to learn."

-Navarth

Boyd wrote:

> I think this version is more in keeping with the
> supposed topic of this Forum.
>
> A sorcerous vampire name dhoom,
> took a succubus up to his room.
> Where they argued all night,
> over who had the right,
> to draw away what from whom.

There'll be a young man of Zothique
Whose soul will be rather too meek;
When lamiae hiss
And offer a kiss,
He'll flee with an orthian squeak.

There'll be a young maid of Zothique
Whose tastes will be strangely oblique;
When asked by a swain,
"Shall I tup thee again?"
She'll teach him a sapphic technique.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 4 Dec 05 | 05:12PM by Ghoti23.

Boyd, excellent limerick - one Clark would have loved I can assure you.

You might post this with a link to Clark's play - it has much the same "aftertaste". yummy

What is the essence in Smith's prepossession with death and necrophilia that is to be celebrated?

I admit to relishing this part of his writing, in a morbid way.

But if I want to present his work to someone, I still show that which deals with weird creations and cosmic visions, which still celebrates Life.

Introduce them to works like "double shadow" and "Xeethra", "The demon of the Prophey",
"The Great God Awto", "Schizoid Creator" - and, above all, the poetry.
DRF

The first time I introduced CAS to another person, it was The Double Shadow.
He came back and handed me the book, with eyes wide open, repeating like in a trance "and the space is no wider than the thickness of a wizard's pen."

Unfortuntely he had no energy to continue reading since his English wasn't very good.

Why don't you take on the task of translating Smith into your language, one of the Norse isn't it? Swedish I think? - It's a job that needs to be done.

I am no emperor of dreams.

One has to make choices in life.



If you follow every dream
You might get lost
If you follow every dream
You might
Get
Lost.

-Neil Young



And I have no desire being a parrot. I'd rather create my own worlds.

Furthermore, the Swedish language can't possibly do Smith's work justice. Different languages are adapted to their cultures' daily needs and thought patterns. We don't have the words to express his more subtle ideas.
There are a few translations, but I prefer reading him in English.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 05 | 02:11AM by Ludde.

Ludde wrote:

> If you follow every dream
> You might get lost
> If you follow every dream
> You might
> Get
> Lost.

Yes. Or you might tear in half.

> -Neil Young
>
> And I have no desire being a parrot.

Then why quote deeply uninspired rock lyrics? Sorry, but it's bad enough seeing English take over the world even when the English is good.

On Swedish and other more purely Germanic languages: I'd guess The Hobbit could work even better in translation there than it does in English. But not CAS.

"deeply uninspired rock lyrics?"

I don't agree.

But you're right about me being a parrot! Darned!

"I'd guess The Hobbit could work even better in translation there than it does in English."

I don't think so. It's a typical Anglo-Saxon work, is it not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 05 | 06:28AM by Ludde.

"deeply uninspired rock lyrics"

Freestanding those lines are of course very unsophisticated, and has no poetic value whatsoever. They are a part of the music so they really have to be considered in that context. It's an emotional thing and the music contributes to the vibrate value of the words, adding meaning. I find that those few words captures something important, right on the point.

I used those words simply because they remind me of a major problem in our Information Age: there are so many possibilities that it is very easy to get lost and mess up your life. Through the internet there is no end to the different roads and sources you can choose from. You have to forcefully limit choices. If you are able.

For example, may I ask how many of you spend as much time with your loved old books (like the Smith Arkham volumes!) as you did before the internet came on 15 or so years ago? Aren't the books just on the shelves collecting dust? Have you not been flooded by other things? I know I have. I have a love hate relationship to the internet. It sure steals a lot of time.

There are two purposes to translation -- Example:
Shakespeare is inimitable in English - you cannot match iambic pentameter comfortably in other tongues -
HOWEVER!!! The story outline can be retold, using appropriate domestic idioms.
Giuseppe Verdi created two of his best operas from Shakespearean plays - Macbeth, and Othello -- His only understanding of the plays was the story outline, the text does not survive, but the characterization does -
Similarly, the translations from the Greek of the novels of Nikos Kazantzakis, are every bit as good (though a different work in reality) as the originals - It is not uncommonly true that translating into English is better than out of it - I have been translating stuff for many, many years. Clark could be told in German, I am sure; I may undertake it myself to see how it goes. But I think the lilt of Swedish could be nearly hypnotic, say in something little like "The Garden of Adompha" for starters-- the principal purpose would be to make the tale itself accessible (we have done this for years with the great Myths, which no one has satisfactorily ever put into English - why? because they suggest things which are beyond language - read all you can about Baldur the Beautiful for example, and ask has any of it touched what we think and feel about him.
I find they do not. In fine, if people read the story in whatever tongue, they may be encouraged to try him in the original. Language can surprise you. Who would have thought that the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam would come out as well(and memorably) as it did? Old Persian to English - now there's a stretch --

Is Poe available in Swedish? if so, see what they did with it and tell me if was successful or not. Mark Twain's colloquial short stories have commonly translated well though I am not knowledgable about their value in the Nordic languages - I would like to have your opinion. Verbatim translations almost never work of course -
I use an example to explain this to students (of long ago):
"Puella pulchra illa gluteum maximum magnum bonum habet." literally, girl pretty that
bottom muscles large good has -- may be translated - That cute chick has really great buns!
It's lots of fun - give it a whirl - could open a whole new world, who knows?

Calonlan, I will read your text later. I have to go to bed now.

I just want to say something. I understand that a thing can be deeply inspired. But how can something be "deeply uninspired"? Talk about bad English.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 05 | 03:29PM by Ludde.

I am not sure what is meant by the phrase, but I'll Ghoti will enlighten us as to his thinking. I have found him to a sensitive and thoughtful writer (he has sent me many of his poems), and probably has something from his experience that caused him to juxtapose the terms.
In my day, the formal discipline of logic was taught (and used), and some sequences of words which seem on first glance incongruos, may, in a sense unconsidered, turn out to be insightful. Similarly, terms which seem insightful (I think, therefore I am - descartes' 'cogito ergo sum' for example), turn out not to hold up under detailed scrutiny. One hears a lot of sophomoric talk on College campuses from both students and professors, where sarcastic wit attacking (always) politicians, religion, or whatever is the current 'cause celebre' is mistaken for congent argument (largely because everyone in the room nods in agreement rather than because anyone has actually examined the content).

Years ago I translated a couple of short-stories from English, simply for my own pleasure; to get deeper into the texts and understand something about how they were built. (I had a short period when I dreamt of writing stories, but I just couldn't get it together.)

But I am really not the right person to answer your questions about translations into Swedish. I am mainly a visual person, enjoying pictorial art and sculpture, and that is one reason I read Smith's work, because of all the colourful images he presents. I have no literal ambitions, although I may have acquired more knowledge of English through my reading than most of my friends. And I can't tell good poetry from bad, I don't know how poetry is constructed; with Smith I simply enjoy those poems that include some unique imagery.

Poe is such a famous writer that all his work is available in Swedish. I may have read The Gold Bug in Swedish many years ago, but the other stories I read in English.
My father read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer aloud to me in Swedish when I was a little kid.
Much of Lovecraft is translated. I tried it but didn't like it. A translator inevitably adds his own perspective, and it had better be a very insightful person if the translation is to be good. Very few translations are good. Most are made by persons without specific life experiences in common with the writer, and include preposterous misunderstandings or violations of the writer's detailed intent or perspective. And no one understands Lovecraft's rich and personal visions better than Lovecraft!
A writer is truest in the original. Translations are for those who absolutely cannot understand the language.
But I agree that some translations made by persons of great ability and integrity (not just doing a translation job) may be major works in their own right. I read a Swedish translation of Homer's Odysseus which was powerful, and also famous for being so.

In comparison to Swedish the English language has many more adjectives. Warmer climates bring more time and room for artistic musings. In cold climates people have to spend more of their time simply surviving hardships, and also their bodies tense up and are less sensitive to their surroundings; the language adapts to this. In our modern technical age of comfortable living the differences in lifestyle between warm and cold countries have become less, but the cultural evolution is deeply rooted.

You are quite right about the geography affecting the language - Tolkien was particulary sensitive to this factor.
Clark's language indeed has the flavor of the sultry climes - which, concommitantly have a far greater reputation for decadence and depravity, than the virtuous, and morally strong North - In America, we have somehow managed to blend the whole business and distribute it uniformly - There are now, for example, New Orleans style voodoo shops in Helena, Montana. It's getting really interesting to watch here, sometimes feels like that declining days of Rome sometimes. Ah Well -
I'll bet the Tom Sawyer in Swedish was fun.

Ludde wrote:

> Calonlan, I will read your text later. I have to
> go to bed now.
>
> I just want to say something. I understand that a
> thing can be deeply inspired. But how can
> something be "deeply uninspired"? Talk about bad
> English.

It was an oxymoron.

>> "deeply uninspired rock lyrics?"
>
> I don't agree.
>
> But you're right about me being a parrot! Darned!

Then you can't disagree with me: you're only a parrot if you repeat something without appreciating its meaning and value. In case, I don't think you appreciated the value of the lyrics, which was low. The content was trite ("You can't do everything you want to and shouldn't try") and the form feeble. With the music they might work, but without it they didn't.

> > I'd guess The Hobbit could work even better in
> > translation there than it does in English."
>
> I don't think so. It's a typical Anglo-Saxon
> work, is it not?

I wouldn't say so. It's English in parts (pipe-smoking, the Shire, etc), but dwarves and dragons are Germanic rather than Anglo-Saxon and because Swedish and other languages are more purely Germanic than English is nowadays, I thought it might work better in translation in some ways.

One thing about reading in a language other than your own is that you concentrate more, and the work can become more powerful because of that.

Calonlan wrote:

> I am not sure what is meant by the phrase, but
> I'll Ghoti will enlighten us as to his thinking.
> I have found him to a sensitive and thoughtful
> writer (he has sent me many of his poems),

You must be confusing me with someone else. I've only ever sent you a limerick.

That's OK, I confuse easily in my dotage --
besides, we got to hear from you -- always a pleasure
drf

time for a new topic?

Ghoti23,
Both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are very very popular in their translations here in Sweden. I read them in English though (as usual). I have leafed through the Swedish translations, and many names of people and places and have literal translations which make them sound ridiculous (translation is somewhat of an art, and you can't just translate right off, but have to transform and adapt the text into the new language and its unique perspective). But as a whole you may be right that The Hobbit works linguistically well in Swedish.



One of the nice things of having more than one language is that you really take part of different dimensions and states of being.

For me English gives nuances, subtlety, musings, ecstatic visions, portentous deeps and heights.

Swedish gives me more of physical feeling (maybe because it's my native language), concrete power, stirring in the stomach, vibrations going through the neck up to the head in a sort of preparation for vigilance, sounds straightening the spine, for the body to leave words behind and act. More square and rugged, practical, less subtle.

Yes, Tom Sawyer in Swedish was a pleasure. I get this vision now of a picture I saw of Mickey Rooney; full of happy energy, carrying a fishing rod, whistling, and walking with high-lifted and steadfast strides.

Swedish is also a great language to swear in! FAN I HELVETES JÄVLAR!!!



By the way, was CAS always poised and balanced emotionally outwards? Did he ever loose temper over something or someone, and swear or scream right out? Or express tempered hatred or aggression?
I find The Dark Eidolon to be the most aggressive story I have ever read. But that wears off with age probably. Also maybe he canalised all his aggression through his art. Still, it would only be human if he also expressed it through his frame.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Dec 05 | 01:38PM by Ludde.

I never saw Clark in a rage, though he occasionally got a little testy with Carol's vivacious ramblings, and her atrocious driving in which the afterlife entered with great pain loomed before one the entire trip.

That he had had real anger in his younger days, was commonly with publishers, and the academic neanderthals. I do not think he was ever in a fight once he left grade school (where he had been picked on unmercifully -- the mischief he spoke of getting into in school was along the lines of peeking into the girl's outhouse). He was much beloved by the denizens of "old town" as their personal character, and woe to any who might cause him trouble. And, as I mention in my memoir, he presented a formidable public aspect.

You would enjoy John Ciardi's Browser's Dictionary book one (there are three), the introduction, relative to your comments on language. Also his excellent text, "How does a poem mean?" - for my taste the very best book on the whole rationale for writing poetry in the first place.
Clark valued this book highly, and I was delighted to share with him that I had discussed his work with John around the breakfast table in Syracuse (late 50's).

Ludde Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ghoti23,
> Both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are very
> very popular in their translations here in Sweden.
> I read them in English though (as usual). I have
> leafed through the Swedish translations, and many
> names of people and places and have literal
> translations which make them sound ridiculous
> (translation is somewhat of an art, and you can't
> just translate right off, but have to transform
> and adapt the text into the new language and its
> unique perspective). But as a whole you may be
> right that The Hobbit works linguistically well in
> Swedish.

In all fairness, the new translation of LotR is much more sensitive to Tolkien's intentions regarding the names than the old one, which was characterised by breathtaking incompetence and carelessness.

> Swedish is also a great language to swear in! FAN
> I HELVETES JÄVLAR!!!

Usch vad du svär! Gå genast och tvätta munnen med tvål! ;-)

"...the new translation of LotR is much more sensitive to Tolkien's intentions..."
Yes I have heard so. I think the old translation was by the same person that translated all the Andrew Lang fairy tale books; Blue Fairy Book, Red..., Green, Yellow, Pink, etc. He must have worked very fast.


"...Usch vad du svär! Gå genast och tvätta munnen med tvål!.."
Nej då! Det är ändå ingen som förstår här!




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 Dec 05 | 02:33AM by Ludde.

"Becoming a Writer" by Dorothea Brande, is another book, warmly recommended by Ray Bradbury.

Although I think the best teacher is to write, write, write; and read fiction and poetry. Instruction manuals may lock the creative expression.