Martinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Many a time I have rushed in triumph to my
> computer to note a typo, only to discover in some
> online dictionary or other that no, this is a real
> word.

Welcome to my Hell. :)
I have found that it is not a good idea to bet against CAS when it comes to spellings or word usage.

Best,
Scott

I checked three words in the first story then gave up.

I think he could of gone 'mainstream' with a more conventional word selection; but then again as his plots are not much, it probably would have been average pulp crap if he did.

Quote:

I have found that it is not a good idea to bet against CAS when it comes to spellings or word usage.

Except perhaps in the letters, where he often misuses the word loan as a verb.... ;-P I know, the OED accepts it, but it still makes me cringe. Also, sometimes, he writes "from whence", which is another goof (pleonasm), but I am hard pressed to think of many more!

"I lift mine eyes unto the hills,
from whence cometh my help?..."
psalms KJV OT -- 1611AD

As I was saying earlier...

Sorry, folks, I am not admitting defeat on this one.

First definition listed in the OED:

whence, adv., conj. (n.)

I. Interrogative uses. (Now replaced in ordinary colloquial speech by where...from.)

1. From what place? a. in a direct question.

a1300 K. Horn 161 (Camb. MS.) Whannes beo e, faire gumes, at her to londe beo icume. 1382 WYCLIF Gen. xvi. 8 Whens comyst thow, and whithir gost thow? c1430 Syr Tryam. 431 What do ye here, madam? Fro whens come ye? [ed. Copland (c 1550) Of whens be you..?]. 1526 TINDALE John vi. 5 Whence shall we bye breed that these might eate? 1540 PALSGR. Acolastus II. v. Nij, From whense haste thou brought hym hyther? 1547 BOORDE Introd. Knowl. xxvii. (1870) 192 Of whens be you? I am of England. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. II. i. 103 Of whence, I pray? Tra. Of Pisa, sir. 1697 DRYDEN Æneis x. 945 Whence am I forc'd, and whether am I born? 1720 DELANY News fr. Parnass. 19 From whence is this Fool? 1773 GOLDSM. Stoops to Conq. v, My wife, as I'm a Christian. From whence can she come? 1855 TENNYSON Brook 22 O babbling brook,..Whence come you?


The "from" may be roughly acceptable through sheer repetition and habit (like the use of "loan" as a verb--anyone care to defend that usage? ;-) ), but it is not the preferred usage, because "whence' suffices on its own, and therefore the "from" is pleonastic. Not entirely a goof, I suppose, but inelegant.

Enough pedantry for this evening. Good night, all!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 May 07 | 09:53PM by Kyberean.

The freedom of the King James English is inelegant - puhleeze

Inelegant to the barbarous perhaps, but not to poets such as myself.

Calonlan:

I admire the King James translators, and I enjoy their Bible as poetry, but I don't share your worship of them--or any of your other objects of worship, for that matter. At any rate, pleonasms are inelegant, in my opinion, yes. You do know what a pleonasm is, right?


Voleboy:

When did I join the ranks of the barbarous? Lol. I am a poet, too, don't forget, so please, try not to sound so self-righteous.


It truly amazes me how even a lighthearted comment, such as the one I made about CAS's (in my opinion) occasional linguistic foibles, can give rise to such bilious and snotty remarks. I've really had a bellyful of you people here, and the sentiment is obviously reciprocal, so I am making my exit from the forum a permanent one, this time. It's a shame, really, but I have much better things to do with my time. The end of the story, indeed!

voleboy wrote:

> Inelegant to the barbarous perhaps, but not to
> poets such as myself.

I can't say your writing is entirely free of barbarisms, VB. If you consulted dictionaries more and your unfettered poetic soul less, things might improve.

Kyberean is right according to the letter of the law, but you could see "from whence" as a bit like "two books". The -s of "books" is "pleonastic" from the POV of Chinese and other languages. I suspect if you studied the bare and pleonastic "whence" you'd find some subtle distinction of meaning.

Let us hope Mr. K is a man of his word(s).
For the record, the "whence" of the KJV in the English of that era, refers not to the "where", but to the "source" - The poet looking "unto the hills", is refering to the location of the standing stones where the rites of Baal were practiced and were a perpetual annoyance luring the folk away - Hence the question - from whence cometh my help?, the answer then is the next phrase denying implicitly that "the hills" are a source of "help" (ie power).
Damn the pleonasms! Full speed ahead!

Pity, he had some real insight into Smith's work, enough to make me overlook his somewhat chickenshit refusal to use or reveal his real name (like posting on this website is going to haunt someone on a google search!), but he also had a rather choleric personality. If he wants to think that CAS was verbose, hey it's a free country, but he should expect to be called on it. Your pulling the KJB usage out of the hat seemed to shake him. Yes, "from whence" is archaic, but was it so out of common usage when Smith was growing up? And let's not forget that CAS liked to use archaic words--like hanging a pheasant up for a few days after bagging it, perhaps the hint of "ripeness" added to the flavor. (Never really cared for pheasant myself.)
In any event, I hope that Mr. K. gets either his lithium or depakote levels adjusted and comes back when he learns to take things a little less personally.

Best,
Scott

Just a note, I do not think Kyberean is complaining that CAS uses archaic words. God knows I think he has a love of English and I cannot imagine him hating archaic words, I mean just see his poetry. (Also, I do not know if you tried to ask him his name but it is fairly obvious who he is if one has been here for any length of time; and if he refused on a personal level to reveal his name, well I do not blame him, one's name does come up on google search via this website if one looks and frankly, it is annoying that someone can "stalk" one's online habits. So chickenshit, maybe not; he may simply like his privacy). Anyway, what he seems to be against from what I see is misusage of words or pleonasms.

I see bad behavior all over the above thread. I just wish everyone could get along and not be so damn insulting or egotistical (and that means everybody). There is no reason why we can't speak to each other without using childish behavior or being holier than thou in our knowledge.

My two cents...

Scott Connors wrote:

> Pity, he had some real insight into Smith's work,
> enough to make me overlook his somewhat
> chickenshit refusal to use or reveal his real name
> (like posting on this website is going to haunt
> someone on a google search!), but he also had a
> rather choleric personality.

It's a bit unfair to criticize the obnoxious git now he's not here to defend himself.

> If he wants to think
> that CAS was verbose,

I'm not sure he thought that. He thought even good Homer nodded, which he did.

> hey it's a free country, but
> he should expect to be called on it. Your pulling
> the KJB usage out of the hat seemed to shake him.
> Yes, "from whence" is archaic,

Not much more archaic than "whence" itself. The most famous examples of "from whence" are archaic, but that's what you might expect.

> but was it so out
> of common usage when Smith was growing up? And
> let's not forget that CAS liked to use archaic
> words--

If CAS "liked" to use archaic words, then T. Blair "likes" the limelight. I'd say it's a bit stronger than that, and for CAS a bit more serious-minded too.

> like hanging a pheasant up for a few days
> after bagging it, perhaps the hint of "ripeness"
> added to the flavor. (Never really cared for
> pheasant myself.)
> In any event, I hope that Mr. K. gets either
> his lithium or depakote levels adjusted and comes
> back when he learns to take things a little less
> personally.

I doubt he's on medication for his excessively thin skin, partly because that would imply he's aware of it. Being female generally helps emotional intelligence, but tends to militate against the other sort. swings n roundabouts innit

Ghoti23 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Connors wrote:
>
> > Pity, he had some real insight into Smith's
> work,
> > enough to make me overlook his somewhat
> > chickenshit refusal to use or reveal his real
> name
> > (like posting on this website is going to haunt
> > someone on a google search!), but he also had a
> > rather choleric personality.
>
> It's a bit unfair to criticize the obnoxious git
> now he's not here to defend himself.
>
I don't mean to criticize Kyberean. I am genuinely sorry to see him leave. Stating that he was hot-tempered is stating the obvious, not a criticism. I know several people who are also somewhat quick to express their irritation with the state of things, but since they have other qualities I value I have learned to live with it.
The only real characterization that I made which was criticism is his refusal to reveal his real name. Hell, even Superman and Batman knew who each was in mufti. However, in retrospect perhaps "chickenshit" is a little strong. If he were still around (or she, no evidence that I recall that she was a man), I'd apologize for such a characterization.
Best,
Scott