A little ways into rereading Lovecraft's complete fiction, in chronological order, I can't help but notice the huge influence Dunsany had on Lovecraft, especially in his early career. Did Dunsany exert too much influence over Lovecraft--a man usually considered to have eclectic influences? I can't help wondering how Lovecraft's overall canon might have looked had he never encountered Dunsany. I tend to find his non-Dunsanian tales far more interesting; and I wonder--might he have continued more in the Dagon vein, if not for the influence of the Irish Baron? That would have been a more preferrable outcome for me, personally. That's not to say I don't like the Dunsanian tales whatsoever--I just strongly prefer his more horror oriented/Mythos tales (yes, there is some overlap, I know). I oft find myself wincing slightly when one of the Dreamland tales comes up...usually I'll just slog through it, making sure I have a solid non-Dunsanian tale lined up for evening reading.

Does anyone agree with me, or am I speaking total heresy? Isn't anyone tired of hearing about marble dream-cities, and how fantastic and shiny they are, and how some poor guy can't find his way back to his city of choice? Would anyone else have preferred to have more Dagon-esque stories in lieu of, say, "The Cats of Ulthar," "Celephais" (cool ending, must admit), "The Doom That Came to Sarnath"? What might have been written?

There's no way of knowing, of course. I tend to consider the Dunsany influence on HPL a necessary adjunct to the Poe influence--beauty balancing horror, as it were. Both writers were eventually subsumed in Lovecraft's own creative spirit.

I don't mind the Dunsanian tales but this may merely be because I haven't read Pegana yet.

Lovecraft eventually seems to have "digested" Dunsany and incorporated his influence, as he did with Poe (and others). I enjoy HPL's so-called Dunsanian tales for the most part. My problem with them, to the extent that I have one, is that they're not Dunsanian enough; i.e., they're like poor Dunsany--kind of like most "Cthulhu Mythos" tales are pale imitations of actual Lovecraft stories. Dunsany had a deft touch with dreamlike imagery and a fine sense of the balance between fantasy and realism that HPL was never able to equal. Heck, Dunsany himself doesn't always get it quite right. CAS (or even Leiber) does much better at that sort of thing than HPL ever did.

There's a reason Lovecraft is most famous for such tales as "The Call of Cthulhu," "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" (my favorite!), "The Dunwich Horror," "The Whisperer In Darkness," etc....

I only lament that he did not produce more fiction of that sort. Luckily, there are a whole lot of people out there trying their best to fill in the gap (myself included to some extent); and though most of it fails horribly, there are some folks who get it right sometimes--thank Yog-Sothoth! I just can't help dreaming about an alternate reality where Lovecraft had spent less time dabbling in Dunsanian stories...what frightening masterpieces of cosmic horror might he have written instead? Still, all of his stories are unique contributions to literature, and I'm glad they exist.

I must admit that I've always had a fondness for his "Dunsanian" stories, though it was indeed the more "cosmic" tales which first drew me into Lovecraft. However, my feeling is also that his Dunsanian stories, though obviously heavily influenced by the Irish fantaisiste, are very much informed by Lovecraft's own Weltanshauung and I don't see them as "second-rate Dunsany" or "poor Dunsany", but very much Lovecraft writing in a Dunsanian manner; that is, this is one mode among many which he used, depending on what voice or manner the particular tale or idea might demand.

Of course, there are strong Dunsanian influences on stories which are not often viewed as Dunsanian, such as "The Terrible Old Man", or even, to my view, "The Transition of Juan Romero", which does not use Dunsany's manner, but still addresses certain themes which seem to have been suggested to him by Dunsany... as well as classical mythology; and which would reappear in his fiction in different guises over the years, often without the Dunsanian manner.

But at any rate, for me, I would think myself much poorer without those tales; despite its flaws (which are many), "The Quest of Iranon" with its critique of the Puritan work ethic and that poignant final line, remains a personal favorite; the humor and bizarrerie of "The Other Gods", "The Cats of Ulthar" (which is a delightfully perverse little folk-tale type of story), and so forth, not to mention that "final bit of Plunkettism", The Dream-Quest of Unkknown Kadath, which I still see as something of a "spiritual autobiography"... all of these are stories which I revisit over the years with little diminishment of pleasure; in some cases with a decided increase in the latter....

K_A_Opperman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a reason Lovecraft is most famous for such
> tales as "The Call of Cthulhu," "The Shadow Over
> Innsmouth" (my favorite!), "The Dunwich Horror,"
> "The Whisperer In Darkness," etc....
>
> I only lament that he did not produce more fiction
> of that sort. Luckily, there are a whole lot of
> people out there trying their best to fill in the
> gap (myself included to some extent); and though
> most of it fails horribly, there are some folks
> who get it right sometimes--thank Yog-Sothoth! I
> just can't help dreaming about an alternate
> reality where Lovecraft had spent less time
> dabbling in Dunsanian stories...what frightening
> masterpieces of cosmic horror might he have
> written instead? Still, all of his stories are
> unique contributions to literature, and I'm glad
> they exist.

On the other hand, I don't think he would have written those great late stories without the Dunsanian influence. It was a phase he had to go through.

I think Lovecraft's Dunsanian phase resulted in a few good gems. Take The Silver Key for example. The longing
to relive bygone days is inherent in us all. Thanks to tales like "The Silver Key" I'm learning to express more emotion and meaning in my tales instead of just horrific events which serve no purpose except to shock the reader. So yes, Lovecraft's Dunsanian phase was healthy for him.

Lastly, who loves The Silver Key tale as much as I do?

Quote:

Martinus
On the other hand, I don't think he would have written those great late stories without the Dunsanian influence. It was a phase he had to go through.

I knew someone would bring this up. You may be right--but who can really say? If Lovecraft had to meander through Dreamland to get to where he ended up, well--I'm glad he did! Even if I could do without a few of the earlier stories he wrote along the way.

Quote:

OConner,CD
I think Lovecraft's Dunsanian phase resulted in a few good gems. Take The Silver Key for example. The longing
to relive bygone days is inherent in us all. Thanks to tales like "The Silver Key" I'm learning to express more emotion and meaning in my tales instead of just horrific events which serve no purpose except to shock the reader. So yes, Lovecraft's Dunsanian phase was healthy for him.

Lastly, who loves The Silver Key tale as much as I do?

For me, "The Silver Key" and its sequel are definitely exceptions. It's been a while, but I remember really liking those tales. In "The Silver Key," it seems Lovecraft has really merged Dunsany with his own more horror-oriented style.

On a further note: perhaps we can see Dunsany's influence in Lovecraft's use of dreams in such stories as "The Dreams in the Witch House" (one of my favorites!). That being the case, yes, Dunsany was a necessary and integral influence for Lovecraft. I suspected this, but felt like challenging the notion just to see what you fellas would say!

I would agree with those who say that his "Dunsanian phase" -- which actually was quite long-lived in its ultimate expression -- was very important in developing Lovecraft's writing. For example, he himself accredited the creation of his pseudo-mythology to the influence of Dusany's theogony. I would also say that I think his reading of Dunsany had much to do with the more poetic side of his writing as well; honing an already-existing tendency to a much more highly-developed form. I don't think this would have happened without that influence, even though its origins probably lie in his fascination with Poe; in part because Dunsany chose the more simple language of the fabulist to address such things; something which Lovecraft himself often did with this aspect of his work; whereas Poe's was more highly-colored and at times even overly florid. And, as I said above, there seem to me to be certain themes which, though not directly derived from Dunsany, were suggested by him, such as the use of the semi-divine or demigods or mortals descended from gods, which of course comes from classical mythology, but it was only after his exposure to Dunsany that he began to use such themes in a more modern creative fashion rather than simply recounting them as part of his deliberately archaic pastorals and similar verses. In the case of "The Dunwich Horror", the obvious primary influence here was Machen, but he had touched on this theme in other pieces before his reading of Machen, and Dunsany's modern rendition of such mythologic conceptions would seem to be the most likely source.

As for "The Silver Key"... in some ways, that is both very Dunsanian, and very anti-Dunsany -- philosophically, at least, in regards to how Lovecraft himself viewed Dunsany (cf. "Lord Dunsany and His Work"). We would also be missing some of the most striking imagery and passages from such works as At the Mountains of Madness were it not for Dunsany, not to mention the developing conceptions which tie this short novel in with his blatantly dreamlike novel, The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath; connections which add considerable power to the later novel if one has read the earlier dreamlands fantasy with care.

So I would say that Lovecraft would simply never have been the writer he was were it not for the influence of Dunsany and his period of apprenticeship to him; just as the influence of Poe played its part, as well as that of Machen, Hawthorne, and Blackwood (not to mention the various Georgians who had such an impact on his style and way he structured his tales).

And in answer to the other question: Yes, I am immensely fond of "The Silver Key", and even have a strong liking for its sequel, despite the latter's many flaws.

Quote:

jdworth
For example, he himself accredited the creation of his pseudo-mythology to the influence of Dusany's theogony

Hadn't thought of that--a very good point.

Quote:

jdworth
We would also be missing some of the most striking imagery and passages from such works as At the Mountains of Madness were it not for Dunsany

I had thought of this--very observant. After careful consideration, I am realizing how very integral the Dunsany influence is to Lovecraft's style across his entire career. I suppose the early Dunsanian tales which I find boring in comparison to his later more iconic works were a necessary phase; he had first to immitate Dunsany before he could assimilate him. The immitations I find comparatively unintersting (though far more interesting than most anything else that's ever been written); the stories that assimilate Dunsany into Lovecraft's own darker style I enjoy greatly.

As for "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath," that is a very strange read. It successfully merges Lovecraft's darker world with Dunsanian Dreamland fantasy, and its strangeness and imaginitive scope certainly lend it plenty of merit; yet I still find it a bit tedious--probably because of its length. I would take "Innsmouth" or "The Whisperer" over "Kadath" any day. I suppose I prefer 'real-world' settings over blatant fantasy (when it comes to HPL--for me it's opposite with CAS), so that the line between reality and fantasy can be cunningly blurred. In the end, it's only a matter of taste, and my taste leans more toward stark, mind-blasting horror than soporific Dreamland fantasy.

I suppose I like CAS's fantastic locales because they generally seem 'real,' as paradoxical as that is. We don't have cats leaping up to the moon, or oceans that dissolve into the sky, for example. We have tangible places that generally obey the laws of physics, but for a few exceptions, and are not overly stupendous like Sarnath or Celephais. The City of the Singing Flame--Ydmos was it?--is a rather impossibly awesome edifice--but the fact that its protagonist is awake, and arrives there through a rift in the dimensions gives it that ounce of realism that I require (I hold it possible that other dimensions exist).

As for the desert of Yondo--there is a very Dunsanian locale (it being 'at the edge of the world'), and yet--I love that story! I suppose the stark terror of the landscape is what attacts me to it--it is made to feel very real, and is treated like a waking, physical place. When a place is treated like a real place, it begins to feel that way.

I don't know where else I'm going with this--but rambling about such matters sure is fun!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 9 Oct 11 | 05:46PM by K_A_Opperman.

K_A_Opperman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > As for "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath," that
> is a very strange read. It successfully merges
> Lovecraft's darker world with Dunsanian Dreamland
> fantasy, and its strangeness and imaginitive scope
> certainly lend it plenty of merit; yet I still
> find it a bit tedious--probably because of its
> length. I would take "Innsmouth" or "The
> Whisperer" over "Kadath" any day. I suppose I
> prefer 'real-world' settings over blatant fantasy
> (when it comes to HPL--for me it's opposite with
> CAS), so that the line between reality and fantasy
> can be cunningly blurred. In the end, it's only a
> matter of taste, and my taste leans more toward
> stark, mind-blasting horror than soporific
> Dreamland fantasy.
>
> I suppose I like CAS's fantastic locales because
> they generally seem 'real,' as paradoxical as that
> is. We don't have cats leaping up to the moon, or
> oceans that dissolve into the sky, for example. We
> have tangible places that generally obey the laws
> of physics, but for a few exceptions, and are not
> overly stupendous like Sarnath or Celephais. The
> City of the Singing Flame--Ydmos was it?--is a
> rather impossibly awesome edifice--but the fact
> that its protagonist is awake, and arrives there
> through a rift in the dimensions gives it that
> ounce of realism that I require (I hold it
> possible that other dimensions exist).
>
> As for the desert of Yondo--there is a very
> Dunsanian locale (it being 'at the edge of the
> world'), and yet--I love that story! I suppose the
> stark terror of the landscape is what attacts me
> to it--it is made to feel very real, and is
> treated like a waking, physical place. When a
> place is treated like a real place, it begins to
> feel that way.
>
> I don't know where else I'm going with this--but
> rambling about such matters sure is fun!


The thing about Kadath is that, while it is a "Dreamlands" fantasy (and Joshi has argued, perhaps the only one which truly fits that description), this by no means makes it merely a dream. Think of it as another expression of Lovecraft's blurring of the lines between reality and dream (as in "The Dreams in the Witch House"). The dreamscape through which Carter wanders may indeed be one shared by certain special dreamers, but there is more than a hint that this is yet another layer of reality, one which often bleeds into our own "reality" from time to time -- hence the connection to At the Mountains of Madness, which hints that the city of the Old Ones, and especially what lies beyond those mountains they feared, is one such locale -- the original, if you will, of the Plateau of Leng and Kadath, respectively. In science-fictional terms, this would be an alternate reality or other dimension which, at certain places or at certain times, impinges upon our own, wreaking havoc; a threshold of the type with which Lovecraft was so enamored.

This blurring of the two was, of course, a hallmark of nearly all his work, from "The Tomb" onward; and, it seems to me, central to his aesthetic of the disruption of our ontological view of the cosmos. He brings the two together in another, though closely related, fashion in that marvelously eerie work, "The Strange High House in the Mist", which again plays with the idea that the Dreamlands and Kadath are very real, albeit very alien, places indeed, and under certain conditions may become permanent parts of our world, with more than slightly unsettling effects. A sort of "infection" as terrifying, in its way, as that of "The Colour Out of Space", and for much the same reason.

And yes, debating about such topics, sharing one's views with others who may have points of agreement as well as disagreement (thus opening the way to each seeing the work in a different light and thus, perhaps, increasing the number of works to enjoy), is indeed one of the prime pleasures of such forums as this.

(On the subject of Joshi pointing out that most of HPL's "Dreamlands" stories are actually placed in an unknown prehistoric period rather than in a land of dreams, see his discussions of "The Quest of Iranon", "Polaris", and the like.)

Quote:

whereas Poe's was more highly-colored and at times even overly florid.

Side note: I couldn't possibly disagree more with the value-judgment "overly", but I simply want to mention how amusingly ironic such a judgment sounds, appearing as it does in a Clark Ashton Smith forum.

As to the Dunsany influence on Lovecraft, no one can say what sort of writer HPL would have become without it. I will make the controversial suggestion that he might have been (for my taste) a better one.

Finally, to return briefly to Poe, let's not underestimate that influence: On the whole, it was by far the most important one on Lovecraft's fiction. Lovecraft himself said that none of his tales felt right to him unless they began somewhat in the Poe manner.

Absquatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> whereas Poe's was more highly-colored and at times
> even overly florid.
>
> Side note: I couldn't possibly disagree more with
> the value-judgment "overly", but I simply want to
> mention how amusingly ironic such a judgment
> sounds, appearing as it does in a Clark Ashton
> Smith forum.

I would say there is such a thing as overly florid--some sort of a ratio of adjectives and 'fancy' words crammed into a sentence/paragraph, to the skill with which they are utilized/incorporated into the flow of the prose. There is a point when words can detract from the underlying narrative. Conversly, there is that point when they offer an allure of their own to complement the narrative (as in CAS and HPL). I suppose an 'overly florid' writer is one who attempts the level of HPL or CAS or Poe, but fails horribly in execution--a portrait of myself a few years back! As for, say, CAS, it could be argued that he is 'overly florid'; but he has such a supreme skill with language that he can get away with it, with the prose reading smoothly, rather than jarringly. It is difficult to define/pinpoint, but, yes, I definitely believe there is such a thing as being over-florid. Perhaps the point at which the complexity of the prose becomes unnatural for any given writer?
>
> As to the Dunsany influence on Lovecraft, no one
> can say what sort of writer HPL would have become
> without it. I will make the controversial
> suggestion that he might have been (for my taste)
> a better one.

This is exactly the possibility I was hinting at when I began this topic. You are the only one who appears to remotely agree with my original notion. However, the good gentlemen here have caused me to reconsider, somewhat. All mere speculation, anyway--HPL is what he is, and he wrote what he wrote, and ain't nobody gonna change anything.

>
> Finally, to return briefly to Poe, let's not
> underestimate that influence: On the whole, it was
> by far the most important one on Lovecraft's
> fiction. Lovecraft himself said that none of his
> tales felt right to him unless they began somewhat
> in the Poe manner.

It would be interesting to analyze the Poe influence--feel free to elaborate, if you care to--or not; suit yourself. I only focused on the Dunsay influence because it irked me a bit, and I was considering the possibility you hinted at. The Poe influence I have NO problem with!

K_A_:

I should have been clearer in my original remark. My objection was specifically to the characterization of Poe's style as "overly florid". Poe was a consummately conscious artist, and I am convinced that he had a reason for everything he did. Poe essentially wrote up to whatever level of hysteria his macabre situations required.

Other than that, I just found it ironic that someone in a CAS forum would find any other writer "overly florid". Really, it all depends upon one's comfort level with the heat and humidity of the greenhouse, where orchids and other exotica grow. Some flourish in that atmosphere; others wilt in the heat.

As to the Poe influence, that remark was really directed more at some of the other commentators, who seemed to me to be implying that Dunsany was the major influence on Lovecraft. I may have been misreading, but I still thought it worthwhile to interject a reminder of Poe's primacy, here.

Dunsany: I have found that pro-Plunkettists here out-number their opposites by a large margin. I, too, would like at least to raise the possibility that Lovecraft may have been a better or more interesting writer if he'd never read Dunsany, regardless of the "sacrifices" we may have had to make in other parts of Lovecraft's oeuvre, as a result.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10 Oct 11 | 01:00PM by Absquatch.

K_A_, I completely agree with you about an artist being overly florid in their works. This is a habit, as an amateur, that I'm trying to break. Even Lovecraft himself later said something to the extent of "Save the weird words for when they are absolutely necessary or else they won't have the intended effect". It's recorded in one of the selected letters series. Lovecraft even gave an opinion of his tale "The Festival" as being "overly colorful and verbose". On the pro side it read beautifully to me. However, on the con side when it came for the climax I was so used to the beautiful and horrid language that I became immune to the climax. Right now I'm working on a tale called "A Visitation". I resisted the urge to overly colorize my language and instead, used them only to slightly enhance the scene. Of course when the reader approaches the climax I will go all out. But now I'm beginning to see why an author should only use colorful language when it's absolutely necessary.