This has some further insights into Clark Ashton Smith's estimation of Tolkien's works:

[www.eldritchdark.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 May 13 | 12:50AM by Geoffrey.

I wonder what CAS would have thought of the recent publication of Tolkien's narrative poems. I am thinking this, particularly since The Fall of Arthur has just been published (and, yes, I already have a copy reserved for me at the local bookshop).

Coincidence: I was just recently reading about the Inklings, and C. S. Lewis' poetic works, such as his long narrative poem,Dymer. Lewis' views on poetry sound very much like those of CAS. Both Lewis and CAS deplored the lifeless abstractions of Eliot, etc.

Geoffrey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This has some further insights into Clark Ashton
> Smith's estimation of Tolkien's works:
>
> [www.eldritchdark.com]
> /master-cas%3A-clark-ashton-smith-remembered

Interesting interview with Dr F... not entirely convinced by the interpretation of Harry Potter, but I've not read them and each to their own...

phillipAellis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder what CAS would have thought of the recent
> publication of Tolkien's narrative poems. I am
> thinking this, particularly since The Fall of
> Arthur has just been published (and, yes, I
> already have a copy reserved for me at the local
> bookshop).


The Tolkien poem that someone should have handed to Smith -- and this would not have been impossible -- it was published in Smith's lifetime (1945!!) -- is "The Lay of Aoutrou and Itroun," put into book form a few years ago. It is an eldritch poem, absolutely. Absolutely.

[tolkiengateway.net]

A new column on the matter of Smith and Tolkien, from a real authority, Douglas Anderson.

[tolkienandfantasy.blogspot.com]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A new column on the matter of Smith and Tolkien,
> from a real authority, Douglas Anderson.
>
> [tolkienandfantasy.blogspot.com]-
> clark-ashton-smith-read-tolkien.html

"... Tolkien didn't much care for the Clark Ashton Smith tale, "The Testament of Athammaus" (which is not one of Smith's best anyway). Tolkien felt the monster was wholly unbelievable and the story had a tooraloo of nonsense in it. ..."

What does tooraloo mean? Is it something that is silly, boisterous, and superficial?

Perhaps a response to Smith's sardonic dark humor and grotesquery, which, I believe, Tolkien had none of, and therefore would not appreciate.

Knygatin, could you unpack your comment a bit?

"Perhaps a response to Smith's sardonic dark humor and grotesquery, which, I believe, Tolkien had none of, and therefore would not appreciate."

You seem to be saying that the explanation for Tolkien's disapproval of "The Testament of Athammaus" is perhaps a blind spot in Tolkien. He "didn't get it." That was because of a deficiency in him regarding appreciation of "dark humor and grotesquery."

But it seems Douglas Anderson doesn't think much of the story either, so is it likely that he shares the deficiency that you suspect in Tolkien?

Are other explanations for their relatively low regard for the story worth considering?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10 Feb 20 | 01:13PM by Dale Nelson.

calonlan Wrote:

Clark's habit of voracious reading
> begun in his youth never abated. Even as you
> will not find mention of John MacDonald's "Lilith"
> et al, so you will not find mention of Tolkien in
> his correspondence - mainly because those with
> whom he corresponded did not read as widely as he,
> and he was very well aware of their tastes and
> passions so would not bring up matters that might
> embarass his friend or colleague by revealing a
> lack of wareness.

Did CAS read George MacDonald's Lilith? What a very great work of fantasy that is. I imagine, if CAS did read it, that he relished -- as I do -- the grotesque and sardonic comedy of the scene with the skeletons in Chapter 17 (but I'm not sure how well that would read, in isolation from what preceded it).

Here's a link to a bunch of study-guide notes on the book, which I wrote, many years ago, for a course in which Lilith was one of the required texts. I'm not acquainted with the site, which apparently preserved my notes before they disappeared from their previous location.

[lucinda-chatnoir.blogspot.com]

I believe that HPL read Lilith. He expressed approval of the first version (there were about five), which I don't think was actually available in his lifetime; I think it was just a paraphrase-summary of it that was, produced by one of MacDonald's sons. However, the remarkable small publisher Johannesen issued the first and final drafts in a one-volume edition that might be available in used copies. Johannesen really was/is a family business, making their books by hand, with sturdy bindings and sewn signatures. I don't know if anyone else has published the complete first version of Lilith.

[www.johannesen.com]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, could you unpack your comment a bit?
>
> "Perhaps a response to Smith's sardonic dark humor
> and grotesquery, which, I believe, Tolkien had
> none of, and therefore would not appreciate."
>
> You seem to be saying that the explanation for
> Tolkien's disapproval of "The Testament of
> Athammaus" is perhaps a blind spot in Tolkien. He
> "didn't get it." That was because of a deficiency
> in him regarding appreciation of "dark humor and
> grotesquery."
>
> But it seems Douglas Anderson doesn't think much
> of the story either, so is it likely that he
> shares the deficiency that you suspect in
> Tolkien?
>
> Are other explanations for their relatively low
> regard for the story worth considering?

I liked the story, but agree that it is perhaps not among his very best. But I am not at all sure Tolkien would have appreciated Smith's best stories either. I have not read "The Testament of Athammaus" afresh, and so do not remember it in full. The grotesque scenes stuck in my mind, and I cherish them.

Know that it was not critique from me against Tolkien. I merely meant that Smith and Tolkien have very different temperaments. I appreciate both.

The Testament is just a well written Ffared & Grey Muser story, like the Black Abbot, in my opinion.

I'd put it in CAS' clearly commercial category. Better than a lot of others in the same category.

As always, my opinion, only...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Testament is just a well written Ffared &
> Grey Muser story, like the Black Abbot, in my
> opinion.
>
> I'd put it in CAS' clearly commercial category.
> Better than a lot of others in the same category.
>
> As always, my opinion, only...


I take it that you are not too enthusiastic about Fritz Leiber's adventuring duo? ;) Which do you like best of Conan or Fafhrd & Gray Mouser?

I have always pronounced Tolkien as "Tol-kee-en". Does that seem logical too you? But I guess I am going to have to correct myself, and start saying "Tolk-eein" instead. It will be awkward at first, but if that is how his name is pronounced, then so be it.

John Bowers, in his Tolkien’s Lost Chaucer, says it’s pronounced toll-KEAN (p. 220).

I think that’s how Rayner Unwin, who knew Tolkien well, pronounces it in the VHS “JRRT” from around 1992.

Here's the "JRRT" film I mentioned, with Tolkien's friend and publisher Rayner Unwin.

[www.youtube.com]

You can go to around 1:37:50 to hear this. "Toll-KEAN."

That might not be the absolute last word on pronunciation of the name, but it'll do, I think.