Did Clark Ashton Smith ever read J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit and/or The Lord of the Rings? If so, what were his thoughts on these works?

I am probably speaking out of turn here, and may get my wrist slapped for it, but what the heck....

I don't believe he did... at least, don't recall ever coming across any mention of it; and Tolkien's popularity didn't really begin until after Smith was dead. He was, of course, read before then, but not all that well known.

I think (he says with some trepidation) that he probably wouldn't have cared for them very much; The Hobbit probably not at all, and likely only certain portions of LotR would have had any chance of impressing him, though he might well have appreciated Tolkien's love of natural beauty and sense of place. I think, though, the philosophy underlying Tolkien's work would have tried his patience a bit; and the earlier portions, especially, of the latter novel would have annoyed him with its child-like hobbits.

I've never come across any mention of Tolkien in Smith's letters, but that doesn't mean he never read them; after all, Tolkien was only becoming known in this country in the 1950s, a decade for which we have few letters. Maybe George Haas lent it to him. Dr. Farmer? Care to chime in?

Scott

Actually, do we have a list (complete or partial) of Smith's library as we do Lovecraft's? What was Smith reading in the last couple of decades of his life? What was his opinion of his successors, such as Bradbury, Leiber, Matheson, Beaumont, etc... Or had he largely given up on fiction by this point? And did he dabble with many realistic texts? Did he make any concessions to Modernism as he grew older?

Smith made a partial catalog of his library in the early 1940s, at a time when he was being hounded by a bill collector about his parents' funerals, but it is not very detailed (titles and author's last names in many cases). In addition, many of his genre titles are described in Roy Squires' various catalogs. I believe that Ron Hilger is working on a catalog of his library, but again, no Tolkien.

Scott

Scott Connors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never come across any mention of Tolkien in
> Smith's letters, but that doesn't mean he never
> read them; after all, Tolkien was only becoming
> known in this country in the 1950s, a decade for
> which we have few letters. Maybe George Haas lent
> it to him. Dr. Farmer? Care to chime in?
>
> Scott
Regr'ettably i am in Oregon, and rarely have access to a computer - but this deserves a response - Clark's habit of voracious reading begun in his youth never abated. Even as you will not find mention of John MacDonald's "Lilith" et al, so you will not find mention of Tolkien in his correspondence - mainly because those with whom he corresponded did not read as widely as he, and he was very well aware of their tastes and passions so would not bring up matters that might embarass his friend or colleague by revealing a lack of wareness. Very near the time of his death, Tolkien was becoming the "in" thing in an underground sort of way on College Campuses -- you would overhear students discussing who was a "hobbit" or an "orc" among their friends and faculty members -- I cannot say that Clark had read the whole Ring trilogy, and I don't recall the books being available in Paper-back at that time, so I know he didn't own any - I know that he had read "The Hobbit", and at least some of the "Fellowship..." He liked the Hobbit, and admired the inventiveness, particularly in the variation in names and language as relates to species - (cf difference between Dwarf names and Elf names). As I recall, he also expressed admiration for the consistency of the images and "leit motif" over such extended narrative - a gift he admired, but had never attempted. The single quote I recall is his having said that Tolkien appeared to be a true master of language. I was not myself at that time equipped to engage much farther in the discussion as my own knowledge of the books was limited.llllkl Clark rarely in my memory paid much attention to matters of characterization, but rather was interested in whether the thing "worked" aas literature, and had clarity in its over all expression - In his later years which I know well, Clark was very slow to be adversly critical of anything except politicians and literary critics. I could add more on this subject as it comes back to me, but the time is up on this machine. My deep affection to you all, and Merry Xmas!

Along with many other people, I've wondered about this for a long time! So glad to know the answer at last! Of course CAS liked The Hobbit--it's a damn good book! (certainly a personal favorite of mine) I wonder if CAS sailed across the sea with the elves like Bilbo did? That's how I plan to leave this world.

calonlan Wrote:

> and I don't recall
> the books being available in Paper-back at that
> time, so I know he didn't own any

Correct -- the first paperback ed. was the pirated Ace edition, which appeared in 1965, IIRC.

Quote:

Even as you will not find mention of John MacDonald's "Lilith"

Not to be captious here, but just to avoid confusion, it's George MacDonald, and not "John"--though I have to admit that the idea of John MacDonald's authoring a similar book makes me smile.

Here is a good reseource for those who are interested in or curious about George MacDonald and his work, by the way. (And don't let his Tennysonian beard put you off. ;-) )

I know I have read two of MacDonald's novels, as they appeared in Ballantine's Adult Fantasy series, but I remember exactly nothing about either of them, except possibly that the title of the one that was not LILITH was PHANTASTES.

Yes, both MacDonald books appeared in the Ballantine series (I, being a little young at the time for that, got the later Wm. B. Eerdmans editions). Phantastes was MacDonald's first, and much earlier, "adult" fantasy novel.

It's interesting, by the way, that MacDonald's two adult fantasies essentially book-ended his life and writing career: Phantastes was published in 1858 and Lilith was published in 1895.

The only problem with the Ballanting edition of Phantastes is that it is abridged. I forget precisely what was removed, but I do recall that being the case. I've got both the Ballantine edition and the full text about here someplace, but it may be quite a while before I get around to looking at them again... however, should that change, if anyone is interested, I could give a brief description of the differences....

Absquatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even as you will not find mention of John
> MacDonald's "Lilith"
>
> Not to be captious here, but just to avoid
> confusion, it's George MacDonald, and not
> "John"--though I have to admit that the idea of
> John MacDonald's authoring a similar book makes me
> smile.
>
> Here is a good reseource for those who are
> interested in or curious about George MacDonald
> and his work, by the way. (And don't let his
> Tennysonian beard put you off. ;-) )

thanks, of course it is George - I forgot to take my Aricept that morning.

Jojo Lapin X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know I have read two of MacDonald's novels, as
> they appeared in Ballantine's Adult Fantasy
> series, but I remember exactly nothing about
> either of them, except possibly that the title of
> the one that was not LILITH was PHANTASTES.


Surprised you don't remember them - those are the two best known works - you will recall that C.S.Lewis considered him a major influence, and he shows up in "The Great Divorce" - MacDonald is uneven, but has moments of radiant fantasy -

It makes sense that CAS would have liked Tolkien -- both writers being so concerned with the nuances of language. The raison d'être of LR of course primarily is linguistic invention, so that Tolkien would doubtless have been delighted with Smith's approbation.

Juha-Matti

This has some further insights into Clark Ashton Smith's estimation of Tolkien's works:

[www.eldritchdark.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 May 13 | 12:50AM by Geoffrey.

I wonder what CAS would have thought of the recent publication of Tolkien's narrative poems. I am thinking this, particularly since The Fall of Arthur has just been published (and, yes, I already have a copy reserved for me at the local bookshop).

Coincidence: I was just recently reading about the Inklings, and C. S. Lewis' poetic works, such as his long narrative poem,Dymer. Lewis' views on poetry sound very much like those of CAS. Both Lewis and CAS deplored the lifeless abstractions of Eliot, etc.

Geoffrey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This has some further insights into Clark Ashton
> Smith's estimation of Tolkien's works:
>
> [www.eldritchdark.com]
> /master-cas%3A-clark-ashton-smith-remembered

Interesting interview with Dr F... not entirely convinced by the interpretation of Harry Potter, but I've not read them and each to their own...

phillipAellis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder what CAS would have thought of the recent
> publication of Tolkien's narrative poems. I am
> thinking this, particularly since The Fall of
> Arthur has just been published (and, yes, I
> already have a copy reserved for me at the local
> bookshop).


The Tolkien poem that someone should have handed to Smith -- and this would not have been impossible -- it was published in Smith's lifetime (1945!!) -- is "The Lay of Aoutrou and Itroun," put into book form a few years ago. It is an eldritch poem, absolutely. Absolutely.

[tolkiengateway.net]

A new column on the matter of Smith and Tolkien, from a real authority, Douglas Anderson.

[tolkienandfantasy.blogspot.com]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A new column on the matter of Smith and Tolkien,
> from a real authority, Douglas Anderson.
>
> [tolkienandfantasy.blogspot.com]-
> clark-ashton-smith-read-tolkien.html

"... Tolkien didn't much care for the Clark Ashton Smith tale, "The Testament of Athammaus" (which is not one of Smith's best anyway). Tolkien felt the monster was wholly unbelievable and the story had a tooraloo of nonsense in it. ..."

What does tooraloo mean? Is it something that is silly, boisterous, and superficial?

Perhaps a response to Smith's sardonic dark humor and grotesquery, which, I believe, Tolkien had none of, and therefore would not appreciate.

Knygatin, could you unpack your comment a bit?

"Perhaps a response to Smith's sardonic dark humor and grotesquery, which, I believe, Tolkien had none of, and therefore would not appreciate."

You seem to be saying that the explanation for Tolkien's disapproval of "The Testament of Athammaus" is perhaps a blind spot in Tolkien. He "didn't get it." That was because of a deficiency in him regarding appreciation of "dark humor and grotesquery."

But it seems Douglas Anderson doesn't think much of the story either, so is it likely that he shares the deficiency that you suspect in Tolkien?

Are other explanations for their relatively low regard for the story worth considering?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10 Feb 20 | 01:13PM by Dale Nelson.

calonlan Wrote:

Clark's habit of voracious reading
> begun in his youth never abated. Even as you
> will not find mention of John MacDonald's "Lilith"
> et al, so you will not find mention of Tolkien in
> his correspondence - mainly because those with
> whom he corresponded did not read as widely as he,
> and he was very well aware of their tastes and
> passions so would not bring up matters that might
> embarass his friend or colleague by revealing a
> lack of wareness.

Did CAS read George MacDonald's Lilith? What a very great work of fantasy that is. I imagine, if CAS did read it, that he relished -- as I do -- the grotesque and sardonic comedy of the scene with the skeletons in Chapter 17 (but I'm not sure how well that would read, in isolation from what preceded it).

Here's a link to a bunch of study-guide notes on the book, which I wrote, many years ago, for a course in which Lilith was one of the required texts. I'm not acquainted with the site, which apparently preserved my notes before they disappeared from their previous location.

[lucinda-chatnoir.blogspot.com]

I believe that HPL read Lilith. He expressed approval of the first version (there were about five), which I don't think was actually available in his lifetime; I think it was just a paraphrase-summary of it that was, produced by one of MacDonald's sons. However, the remarkable small publisher Johannesen issued the first and final drafts in a one-volume edition that might be available in used copies. Johannesen really was/is a family business, making their books by hand, with sturdy bindings and sewn signatures. I don't know if anyone else has published the complete first version of Lilith.

[www.johannesen.com]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, could you unpack your comment a bit?
>
> "Perhaps a response to Smith's sardonic dark humor
> and grotesquery, which, I believe, Tolkien had
> none of, and therefore would not appreciate."
>
> You seem to be saying that the explanation for
> Tolkien's disapproval of "The Testament of
> Athammaus" is perhaps a blind spot in Tolkien. He
> "didn't get it." That was because of a deficiency
> in him regarding appreciation of "dark humor and
> grotesquery."
>
> But it seems Douglas Anderson doesn't think much
> of the story either, so is it likely that he
> shares the deficiency that you suspect in
> Tolkien?
>
> Are other explanations for their relatively low
> regard for the story worth considering?

I liked the story, but agree that it is perhaps not among his very best. But I am not at all sure Tolkien would have appreciated Smith's best stories either. I have not read "The Testament of Athammaus" afresh, and so do not remember it in full. The grotesque scenes stuck in my mind, and I cherish them.

Know that it was not critique from me against Tolkien. I merely meant that Smith and Tolkien have very different temperaments. I appreciate both.

The Testament is just a well written Ffared & Grey Muser story, like the Black Abbot, in my opinion.

I'd put it in CAS' clearly commercial category. Better than a lot of others in the same category.

As always, my opinion, only...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Testament is just a well written Ffared &
> Grey Muser story, like the Black Abbot, in my
> opinion.
>
> I'd put it in CAS' clearly commercial category.
> Better than a lot of others in the same category.
>
> As always, my opinion, only...


I take it that you are not too enthusiastic about Fritz Leiber's adventuring duo? ;) Which do you like best of Conan or Fafhrd & Gray Mouser?

I have always pronounced Tolkien as "Tol-kee-en". Does that seem logical too you? But I guess I am going to have to correct myself, and start saying "Tolk-eein" instead. It will be awkward at first, but if that is how his name is pronounced, then so be it.

John Bowers, in his Tolkien’s Lost Chaucer, says it’s pronounced toll-KEAN (p. 220).

I think that’s how Rayner Unwin, who knew Tolkien well, pronounces it in the VHS “JRRT” from around 1992.

Here's the "JRRT" film I mentioned, with Tolkien's friend and publisher Rayner Unwin.

[www.youtube.com]

You can go to around 1:37:50 to hear this. "Toll-KEAN."

That might not be the absolute last word on pronunciation of the name, but it'll do, I think.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Testament is just a well written Ffared &
> > Grey Muser story, like the Black Abbot, in my
> > opinion.
> >
> > I'd put it in CAS' clearly commercial category.
> > Better than a lot of others in the same
> category.
> >
> > As always, my opinion, only...
>
>
> I take it that you are not too enthusiastic about
> Fritz Leiber's adventuring duo? ;)

Hah!

No, I liked them as good escapist entertainment (read them all many years ago). The series was something like a Crosby and Hope Road Movie--reliable, known characters in new predicaments. But they were not of the same impact as something even like Weaver in the Vault (Ffherd & Mouser, with an unhappy ending).

You know what? I was confused (possiby still am). The Testament is the headsman of Commorium, right? I was confusing it with the master thief and his girlfriend--Theft of the 39 Girdles.

There was another one where he and another guy got drunk and went to loot Commorium many years later and were trapped in a temple by the gooey black mess. He lost an arm, as I recall.

This does not measure up to stuff like The Isle of the Torturers, in my opinion.

> Which do you
> like best of Conan or Fafhrd & Gray Mouser?

I never much cared for Conan or Kull, etc., and there is one Ffherd and Mouser story where they climb a mountain for much of the book. I can recall that I liked the atmospheric aspect of the mountain climb.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know what? I was confused (possiby still am).
> The Testament is the headsman of Commorium, right?
> I was confusing it with the master thief and his
> girlfriend--Theft of the 39 Girdles.

Long time since I read them now (something I intend to remedy), but I found "The Testament of Athammaus" much better than "The Theft of the Thirty-Nine Girdles".

> There was another one where he and another guy got
> drunk and went to loot Commorium many years later
> and were trapped in a temple by the gooey black
> mess. He lost an arm, as I recall.

That is "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros", right? Its first line reads: "I, Satampra Zeiros of Uzuldaroum, shall write with my left hand, since I have no longer any other, ..."

> This does not measure up to stuff like The Isle of
> the Torturers, in my opinion.

That one shows Smith's authority of exceptional literary power.


> there is one Ffherd and Mouser story where they
> climb a mountain for much of the book. I can
> recall that I liked the atmospheric aspect of the
> mountain climb.

That must be "Stardock". I have not got quite that far in my reading yet, but can't wait to meet the giant furry mammal serpent! There has already been a small furry snake up in the north in one of his stories, and it was completely convincing and believable too. I want to see a furry snake, in real life!!! (Alan Dean Foster has a snake with wings in his books, and that is a good one too, and evolutionary feasible.)

I am just now reading the first five Fafhrd & Grey Mouser books, which I started after my marathon read of all of Howard's Conan. Leiber's stories are very well written, in a perfected classic fantasy setting. (It shows that his parents were classic Shakespeare actors. He has access to a stage wardrobe of colorful old clothes.) A shrewd humor, and wide understanding of human conditions. Great magic, color, and rich visual forms. Spectacular swordplay. The satire element I am a bit uncertain about; I can't quite put my finger on it, but the writing is somewhat cool. But yet passionate! My impression of Leiber is divided. Perhaps the classic fantasy setting is too perfected and traditional? I have currently stalled on "Lean Times in Lankhmar", finding the satirical element too overt, ... my attention drifted. I find Clark Ashton Smith and Jack Vance more engaging, as their fantastic imaginations are more unique. But Fafhrd & Grey Mouser are very well worth reading. And singularly educational!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You know what? I was confused (possiby still
> am).
> > The Testament is the headsman of Commorium,
> right?
> > I was confusing it with the master thief and
> his
> > girlfriend--Theft of the 39 Girdles.
>
> Long time since I read them now (something I
> intend to remedy), but I found "The Testament of
> Athammaus" much better than "The Theft of the
> Thirty-Nine Girdles".

Agreed. The Testament read as a cautionary tale, complete with hubris being slapped down, whereas 39 Girdles was commercial pulp.

>
> > There was another one where he and another guy
> got
> > drunk and went to loot Commorium many years
> later
> > and were trapped in a temple by the gooey black
> > mess. He lost an arm, as I recall.
>
> That is "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros", right? Its
> first line reads: "I, Satampra Zeiros of
> Uzuldaroum, shall write with my left hand, since I
> have no longer any other, ..."
>
> > This does not measure up to stuff like The Isle
> of
> > the Torturers, in my opinion.
>
> That one shows Smith's authority of exceptional
> literary power.

There was so much about that that was *right*, in my opinion...

>
>
> > there is one Ffherd and Mouser story where they
> > climb a mountain for much of the book. I can
> > recall that I liked the atmospheric aspect of
> the
> > mountain climb.
>
> That must be "Stardock". I have not got quite that
> far in my reading yet, but can't wait to meet the
> giant furry mammal serpent! There has already been
> a small furry snake up in the north in one of his
> stories, and it was completely convincing and
> believable too. I want to see a furry snake, in
> real life!!! (Alan Dean Foster has a snake with
> wings in his books, and that is a good one too,
> and evolutionary feasible.)
>
> I am just now reading the first five Fafhrd & Grey
> Mouser books, which I started after my marathon
> read of all of Howard's Conan. Leiber's stories
> are very well written, in a perfected classic
> fantasy setting. (It shows that his parents were
> classic Shakespeare actors. He has access to a
> stage wardrobe of colorful old clothes.) A shrewd
> humor,

I agree. I've laughed aloud in reading his stuff.

> and wide understanding of human conditions.
> Great magic, color, and rich visual forms.
> Spectacular swordplay. The satire element I am a
> bit uncertain about; I can't quite put my finger
> on it, but the writing is somewhat cool. But yet
> passionate! My impression of Leiber is divided.

Funny you mention him! I hadn't thought about him much-there was something that I did not like, and I now it occurs to me:

"What is a guy this *good* doing writing trivial entertainment like this?"

That's howI might have thought when I was about 25, when I read this stuff, but now I'd just consider that I was lucky enough that he decided to do so.

I'm now seeing that thee are very many out there who are extremely well-educated and knowledgeable, but that fail to engage the reader in a natural and visceral way. You really cannot fault them, technically, but they are not inspired artists.

Right now I'm reading A. Merritt's The Metal Monster. My gut feeling is that he can tell an inspired story (like Howard) but that the story he's telling me is a script--I already know who's going to die (often) and what the final outcome will be, so far as resolution.

But The Coming of the White Worm--I never saw that coming... Weaver in the Vault, the same.

> Perhaps the classic fantasy setting is too
> perfected and traditional? I have currently
> stalled on "Lean Times in Lankhmar", finding the
> satirical element too overt, ... my attention
> drifted. I find Clark Ashton Smith and Jack Vance
> more engaging, as their fantastic imaginations are
> more unique. But Fafhrd & Grey Mouser are very
> well worth reading. And singularly educational!

They're great good fun!!! Like I said: a Road Movie.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Right now I'm reading A. Merritt's The Metal
> Monster. My gut feeling is that he can tell an
> inspired story (like Howard) but that the story
> he's telling me is a script--I already know who's
> going to die (often) and what the final outcome
> will be, so far as resolution.
>

I think The Metal Monster turned into something pretty bizarre. I couldn't foresee that coming as I read.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Right now I'm reading A. Merritt's The Metal
> > Monster. My gut feeling is that he can tell an
> > inspired story (like Howard) but that the story
> > he's telling me is a script--I already know
> who's
> > going to die (often) and what the final outcome
> > will be, so far as resolution.
> >
>
> I think The Metal Monster turned into something
> pretty bizarre. I couldn't foresee that coming as
> I read.

I hope so!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But on the other hand, after having read a few of Howard's Conan tales, I could foresee them all (except in the small details, which are always brilliant): 1. Conan is pressured to the very brink of death. 2. He meets a woman along the way, who at first rejects him. 3. He finally overcomes his foes in the end, and gets to embrace the woman. EVERY story follows this same basic pattern. (Talk about commercial pulp. But that is what he did. Making money.) The beauty, and real satisfaction, is in the details.

Knygatin, would you care to mention a few of the excellent details from the Conan stories?

As I recall, "Beyond the Black River" doesn't conform to the pattern you describe, yet is sometimes considered one of the best of the Conan stories.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, would you care to mention a few of the
> excellent details from the Conan stories?
>
> As I recall, "Beyond the Black River" doesn't
> conform to the pattern you describe, yet is
> sometimes considered one of the best of the Conan
> stories.


If I may diverge...

Now, at this time, I'm becoming interested in *why* Conan and others of Howard's heroic characters, *did not* interest me when I read a fair number of them, back in the late 60s.

I mean, my personal worldview is not all that different from the way Howard describes Conan's reality, in that I can easily see that direct action and focus, and even aggression, are almost essential in an evolutionary sense, although in current times the action has switched from the physical to the intellectual and/or economic stage.

Given that, and viewing Conan as a simplified and symbolic avatar, I *should* like it, but I don't.

It's a sort of Mein Kampf of heroic fantasy, and I dislike the raising of what's simply necessary but ugly to the level of heroic adulation. He's not a hero, but simply a survivor of mankind's era of savagery.

Maybe that's it; I don't know. i'm not rally very civilized, so *that's* not it...

There may be stylistic elements, too, I'm not sure.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think Conan is heroic in some sense, even if he often works merely for his own private interests. He does stand up and help persons of his own heritage who are in need, that is a principle he has. He also often plays a vital role under inflammable political events, leading armies, and in releasing people from evil rulers. So he is a hero in the ultimate sense.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin, would you care to mention a few of the
> excellent details from the Conan stories?
>

No, I cannot, not now. Then I would have to cite them directly, because it is Art. But it concerns how Howard describes magic, demonic forces, ancient cultures and artifacts, the physical anatomy and mental qualities of Conan, battle scenes, the heinous behaviors of evil sorcerers and rulers, the sophisticated turns of corrupted politics. At times the pure beauty of Howard's prose.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Right now I'm reading A. Merritt's The Metal
> Monster. My gut feeling is that he can tell an
> inspired story (like Howard) but that the story
> he's telling me is a script--I already know who's
> going to die (often) and what the final outcome
> will be, so far as resolution.
>

I hope you will enjoy the rest of it. But if you are reading the cut version, it will likely appear much more pulpy and stilted than the original. I noted this difference when casually comparing them, especially in the beginning, which has large chunks of text and whole sections of background removed.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Right now I'm reading A. Merritt's The Metal
> > Monster. My gut feeling is that he can tell an
> > inspired story (like Howard) but that the story
> > he's telling me is a script--I already know
> who's
> > going to die (often) and what the final outcome
> > will be, so far as resolution.
> >
>
> I hope you will enjoy the rest of it. But if you
> are reading the cut version, it will likely appear
> much more pulpy and stilted than the original. I
> noted this difference when casually comparing
> them, especially in the beginning, which has large
> chunks of text and whole sections of background
> removed.

I don't know which version I have. I am 28% through it.

I am coming to the conclusion of the trip taken after Norhala takes Ruth and the others from the mountain valley. It has been difficult for me to get a mental image of the metal components (cube, globe, pyramid) as they rearrange, and the journey itself was as incomprehensible as the "light show" sequence of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

That said, it is definitely conveying a completely alien environment that doesn't seem reminiscent of anything else I've read.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> That said, it is definitely conveying a completely
> alien environment that doesn't seem reminiscent of
> anything else I've read.

There you go!!! I wish you luck. And hope you don't stumble too much along the road, because it can be a startling journey.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> ...
> > That said, it is definitely conveying a
> completely
> > alien environment that doesn't seem reminiscent
> of
> > anything else I've read.
>
> There you go!!! I wish you luck. And hope you
> don't stumble too much along the road, because it
> can be a startling journey.

Great!

I'm engaged, will certainly finish it.

Thanks!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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