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Onan on Conan
Posted by: treycelement (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2012 06:50AM
[nah. but i wish i HAD said all this. -- o.t.v.]

The Hyborian Age

Posted on January 20, 2012 by gcochran9

I was contemplating Conan the Barbarian, and remembered the essay that Robert E. Howard wrote about the background of those stories – The Hyborian Age. I think that the flavor of Howard’s pseudo-history is a lot more realistic than the picture of the human past academics preferred over the past few decades.

In Conan’s world, it’s never surprising to find a people that once mixed with some ancient prehuman race. Happens all the time. Until very recently, the vast majority of workers in human genetics and paleontology were sure that this never occurred – and only changed their minds when presented with evidence that was both strong (ancient DNA) and too mathematically sophisticated for them to understand or challenge (D-statistics).

Conan’s history was shaped by the occasional catastrophe. Most academics (particularly geologists) don’t like catastrophes, but they have grudgingly come to admit their importance – things like the Thera and Toba eruptions, or the K/T asteroid strike and the Permo-Triassic crisis.

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, evolution seems to have run pretty briskly, but without any pronounced direction. Men devolved into ape-men when the environment pushed in that direction (Flores ?) and shifted right back when the environment favored speech and tools. Culture shaped evolution, and evolution shaped culture. An endogamous caste of snake-worshiping priests evolved in a strange direction. Although their IQs were considerably higher than average, they remained surprisingly vulnerable to sword-bearing barbarians.

In this world, evolution could happen on a time scale of thousands of years, and there was no magic rule that ensured that the outcome would be the same in every group. It may not be PC to say it, but Cimmerians were smarter than Picts.

Above all, people in Conan’s world fought. They migrated: they invaded. There was war before, during, and after civilization. Völkerwanderungs were a dime a dozen. Conquerors spread. Sometimes they mixed with the locals, sometimes they replaced them – as when the once dominant Hyborians, overrun by Picts, vanished from the earth, leaving scarcely a trace of their blood in the veins of their conquerors. They must have been U5b.

To be fair, real physical anthropologists in Howard’s day thought that there had been significant population movements and replacements in Europe, judging from changes in skeletons and skulls that accompanied archeological shifts, as when people turned taller, heavier boned , and brachycephalic just as the Bell-Beaker artifacts show up. But those physical anthropologists lost out to people like Boas – liars.

Given the chance (sufficient lack of information), American anthropologists assumed that the Mayans were peaceful astronomers. Howard would have assumed that they were just another blood-drenched snake cult: who came closer?

Now I’m not saying that Howard got every single tiny little syllable of prehistory right. Not likely: so far, we haven’t seen any signs of Cthulhu-like visitors, which abound in the Conan stories. So far. But Howard’s priors were more accurate than those of the pots-not-people archeologists: more accurate than people like Excoffier and Currat, who assume that there hasn’t been any population replacement in Europe since moderns displaced Neanderthals. More accurate than Chris Stringer, more accurate than Brian Ferguson.

Most important, Conan, unlike the typical professor, knew what was best in life.

The Hyborian Age



“The true independent is he who dwells detached and remote from the little herds as well as from the big herd. Affiliating with no group or cabal of mice or monkeys, he is of course universally suspect.” — The Black Book of Gore Vidal.

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: calonlan (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2012 03:04PM
Interesting observations - one small reminder - nearly all of the mythology and proper names (like Conan) and toponymic references (like Cimmeria) were borrowed quite freely from Irish Mythology - no doubt a barbaric and demon haunted, sorcerer be-deviled time in history -- It is only recently that the rich history/mythology of Ireland has come into a general awareness in academia - the novels of Morgan Llewellyn have done an admirable job of reviving interest in the Celts in general, and the bardic tradition in particular -- interestingly, in the vicinity of Croom Castle (my ancestral digs) some years back a local Inn-keeper decided to revive the Bardic tradition of providing free hospitality to poets - he of course was descended upon by hordes of free-loading poets who soon had him bankrupt. There is a nice metal Historic marker now at the location celebrating the memory of the "Poets of Merry Croom" -

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: treycelement (IP Logged)
Date: 26 January, 2012 05:07AM
calonlan wrote:

> Interesting observations - one small reminder -
> nearly all of the mythology and proper names (like
> Conan) and toponymic references (like Cimmeria)
> were borrowed quite freely from Irish Mythology -
> no doubt a barbaric and demon haunted, sorcerer
> be-deviled time in history -- It is only recently
> that the rich history/mythology of Ireland has
> come into a general awareness in academia - the
> novels of Morgan Llewellyn have done an admirable
> job of reviving interest in the Celts in general,
> and the bardic tradition in particular

ach, dr farmer -- you should remember absquatch's advice and not encourage me in my monkey business by replying to my posts!

however, on ireland: do you think it has been the poor relation on the celtic fringe? e.g. if the welsh are traditionally thought of as mystic, the irish are traditionally thought of as fools:

Irish Jokes

perhaps it has something to do with these interesting iq distributions in europe?

[img8.imageshack.us]

further discussion here:

[jayman.blog.com]



“The true independent is he who dwells detached and remote from the little herds as well as from the big herd. Affiliating with no group or cabal of mice or monkeys, he is of course universally suspect.” — The Black Book of Gore Vidal.

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: calonlan (IP Logged)
Date: 28 January, 2012 09:31PM
treycelement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calonlan wrote:
>
> > Interesting observations - one small reminder -
> > nearly all of the mythology and proper names
> (like
> > Conan) and toponymic references (like Cimmeria)
> > were borrowed quite freely from Irish Mythology
> -
> > no doubt a barbaric and demon haunted, sorcerer
> > be-deviled time in history -- It is only
> recently
> > that the rich history/mythology of Ireland has
> > come into a general awareness in academia - the
> > novels of Morgan Llewellyn have done an
> admirable
> > job of reviving interest in the Celts in
> general,
> > and the bardic tradition in particular
>
> ach, dr farmer -- you should remember absquatch's
> advice and not encourage me in my monkey business
> by replying to my posts!
>
> however, on ireland: do you think it has been the
> poor relation on the celtic fringe? e.g. if the
> welsh are traditionally thought of as mystic, the
> irish are traditionally thought of as fools:
>
> Irish Jokes
>
> perhaps it has something to do with these
> interesting iq distributions in europe?
>
> [img8.imageshack.us]
> ng
>
> further discussion here:
>
> [jayman.blog.com]

I wasn't aware that the Irish were thought of as fools (except for their penchant for drunken pugilistics) - but as a people, the residue of Druidism still runs deep, and their capacity for extraordinary music and poetry easily matches their kinfolk in Wales - they are indeed an amazing mix of their Iberian heritage blended with people who were almost certainly Danites (46percent of Old Irish is cognate with Hebrew) - and they had the chariot and mastery of the horse centuries ahead of the mainland. And as much as I love Welsh poets and music, no one promotes "The Three Welsh Tenors" - though this too has a troubling dimension for an Opera Singer Emeritus (latin for "has been"), since in the operatic world we recognize three genders: "men, women, and tenors" --

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: treycelement (IP Logged)
Date: 2 February, 2012 05:42AM
calonlan wrote:

> I wasn't aware that the Irish were thought of as
> fools

Yes. All close-knit cultural communities, and many non-close-knit ones, have a "stupid" out-group they make jokes about, e.g. Hindus about Sikhs, Arabs about Saudis, the Irish themselves about Kerrymen, I believe.

> (except for their penchant for drunken
> pugilistics) - but as a people, the residue of
> Druidism still runs deep, and their capacity for
> extraordinary music and poetry easily matches
> their kinfolk in Wales - they are indeed an
> amazing mix of their Iberian heritage blended with
> people who were almost certainly Danites
> (46percent of Old Irish is cognate with Hebrew) -

Yes, though some recent estimates push it higher, to 53 or 54%. King Solomon forged extensive trading links with Ancient Ireland, of course, exchanging cedar, sandalwood and myrrh for such characteristically Irish products as harps, Guinness, leprechauns, and gobshite (a rare mineral found in the Blarney Mountains).



“The true independent is he who dwells detached and remote from the little herds as well as from the big herd. Affiliating with no group or cabal of mice or monkeys, he is of course universally suspect.” — The Black Book of Gore Vidal.

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: calonlan (IP Logged)
Date: 2 February, 2012 06:55PM
Actually the Danites were almost certainly the predecessors of the "little people" - who were very difficult to defeat when the Iberians showed up as they had advanced weaponry and apparently fought in strange, almost dance-like movement - As to communications with the Irish, it is my opinion that the first migrations began when the Danites (or some of them at any rate) took ship to Greece rather than march across the desert in the Exodus (I actually am reasonably confident these were those whom the Egyptian histories called the Hyksos - and keep in mind, the traditional chronology of Egyptian history is very much up in the air right now) - The Danites were known to be the only Hebrews who were not terrified of the Sea - In Greece, since their primary skill was working with Gold, they established themselves for sure on Crete as the "Danoi" - subsequent migrations took them up through the Balkans to the North and across settling in Denmark (Danemaark) - thence to Ireland before the time of Solomon (Tara, the capitol, means "stone tablet of the law" in old Hebrew) - The tin trade between Ireland and Egypt resulted in an alliance sealed by marriage between an Irish king and the Pharaoh's daughter, Scota - child of the Pharaoh's marriage to seal a treaty with the blood-thirsty Scythians - This bright girl, was very intersted in expanding her little King's domain, and initiated colonizing across the straits in the northern land that has forever had her name- "Scota-lande" - Scotland - this is probably the factor behind the fact that the Romans referred to the Irish as the "primi scotti" - or "first Scots" - all of which is probably more than you really wanted to know, but what the hell - where else to I get to flex my "PHUD" (PhD) these days -

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: treycelement (IP Logged)
Date: 4 February, 2012 04:33AM
calonlan wrote:

> The Danites were known to be
> the only Hebrews who were not terrified of the Sea
> - In Greece, since their primary skill was working
> with Gold, they established themselves for sure on
> Crete as the "Danoi" - subsequent migrations took
> them up through the Balkans to the North and
> across settling in Denmark (Danemaark) - thence to
> Ireland before the time of Solomon (Tara, the
> capitol, means "stone tablet of the law" in old
> Hebrew)

This makes me wonder, Dr Farmer: how much did you discuss topics like etymology and the evolution and esthetics of language with CAS? He really is v. sophisticated in his onomastics -- far more so than Tolkien. Someone once said of Tolkien that he was v. inventive, but not v. imaginative. Seems an EXcellent summary to me. Elvish is Welsh + Finnish, fragzampil. CAS's invented names are genuinely "Other." But I wonder, if CAS had had Tolkien's educational opportunities (and not just Tolkien's), whether he would have lost more than he gained, or gained anything at all.....?



“The true independent is he who dwells detached and remote from the little herds as well as from the big herd. Affiliating with no group or cabal of mice or monkeys, he is of course universally suspect.” — The Black Book of Gore Vidal.

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: calonlan (IP Logged)
Date: 4 February, 2012 09:53PM
treycelement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calonlan wrote:
>
> > The Danites were known to be
> > the only Hebrews who were not terrified of the
> Sea
> > - In Greece, since their primary skill was
> working
> > with Gold, they established themselves for sure
> on
> > Crete as the "Danoi" - subsequent migrations
> took
> > them up through the Balkans to the North and
> > across settling in Denmark (Danemaark) - thence
> to
> > Ireland before the time of Solomon (Tara, the
> > capitol, means "stone tablet of the law" in old
> > Hebrew)
>
> This makes me wonder, Dr Farmer: how much did you
> discuss topics like etymology and the evolution
> and esthetics of language with CAS? He really is
> v. sophisticated in his onomastics -- far more so
> than Tolkien. Someone once said of Tolkien that he
> was v. inventive, but not v. imaginative. Seems an
> EXcellent summary to me. Elvish is Welsh +
> Finnish, fragzampil. CAS's invented names are
> genuinely "Other." But I wonder, if CAS had had
> Tolkien's educational opportunities (and not just
> Tolkien's), whether he would have lost more than
> he gained, or gained anything at all.....?
You will recall that I was very young (late teens early twenties) when I was with Clark over about a 9 year period - my own interest in etymoloty was profoundly stirred by contact with Clark who was adamant for precision -
as to the education - Clark did what worked for him, he is to my mind, the nearest to a 'sui generis" genius I have known - to repeat the Schopenhauer quote - "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see" - how fortunate are we to be allowed to see what he saw -

Re: Onan on Conan
Posted by: treycelement (IP Logged)
Date: 8 February, 2012 05:54AM
calonlan wrote:

> You will recall that I was very young (late teens
> early twenties) when I was with Clark over about a
> 9 year period - my own interest in etymology was
> profoundly stirred by contact with Clark who was
> adamant for precision -

Did he ever discuss how he formed his names?

> as to the education - Clark did what worked for
> him, he is to my mind, the nearest to a 'sui
> generis" genius I have known

"Sui generis genius" is a v. good summary of CAS.

> - to repeat the
> Schopenhauer quote - "Talent hits a target no one
> else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can
> see" - how fortunate are we to be allowed to see
> what he saw -

Yes. CAS is "an artist who has embalmed the poignant history of an intensely human spirit in the magical spices of words..." (Lytton-on-Newman).



“The true independent is he who dwells detached and remote from the little herds as well as from the big herd. Affiliating with no group or cabal of mice or monkeys, he is of course universally suspect.” — The Black Book of Gore Vidal.



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