Hi,

By a sheer accident I found a book of short stories by Manly Wade Wellman who wrote for Weird Tales. Has anybody read something by this author to tell me if his work is worth giving a try?

Thanks.

In my opinion, it is.

I think he was a serious artist whose sensibilities were largely formed by the 1930s "common man" archetype. He has a recurring character, Wander John, or something ike that, who is a wandering folk musician/hired hand with some unspoken knowledge of folk traditions and magic. In a sense, Woody Guthrie with mojo. The best stories are set in the Appallachians, and there is s dark, woodsy element that reminds you of buck dancing and moonshine.

In my mind he is related thematically to R.A. Lafferty.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Being attracted to the Appalachian hillbilly setting with supernatural overtones, I tried one of Wellman's tales, "Walk Like a Mountain". But I thought the prose was much too simple to be enjoyable for an adult. It reads like something out of Andrew Lang's Fairy Books. There were a few good lines of descriptive atmosphere ("Best-looking big woman I ever see, brown hair like a wagonful of home-cured tobacco, eyes green and bright as a fresh-squoze grape pulp."), but not much. Does not hold up as fine weird literature. And the prose doesn't connect very well with the setting or the deeper meaning of events, at times so bad or hasty as to be incomprehensible. In purpose a simple morality tale using terminology taken from the Bible. Something you might perhaps find in a Christian book store, in the children's section.

I suppose one has become spoiled, reading authors like Lovecraft, Smith, Blackwood, and Walter de la Mare ... .

Stylistically nothing like CSS, huh? :^)

Wellman is like an FDR-era folklorist--a sort of Woody Guthrie of modern folk myth. For another more closely related author, in both style and tone, there's R. A. Lafferty.

Too, I got the same feeling from Wagner's "Sticks"--uniquely American rural.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can only say that I enjoyed Wellman's stories as a child and continue to enjoy them as an adult. It's true that he doesn't have the "cosmic" viewpoint of some other weird authors, but that isn't a prerequisite for me. As for his voice, I think it is an integral part of the appeal of his stories. I find his rustic, backwoods characters more believable than HPl's.

That said, I never thought Walk like a mountain was the best of the John the Balladeer tales. The Desrick on Yandro is far superior, in my opinion.

Ken K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can only say that I enjoyed Wellman's stories as
> a child and continue to enjoy them as an adult.
> It's true that he doesn't have the "cosmic"
> viewpoint of some other weird authors, but that
> isn't a prerequisite for me. As for his voice, I
> think it is an integral part of the appeal of his
> stories. I find his rustic, backwoods characters
> more believable than HPl's.
>
> That said, I never thought Walk like a mountain
> was the best of the John the Balladeer tales. The
> Desrick on Yandro is far superior, in my opinion.


Well, I also gave "The Kelpie" a try, as kelpies are a fetish of mine. I liked it better, especially the early part, enjoyed the perked up humour. Still pulpy.

That sentence I cited above has stuck with me. Instead of using generic terms, like the sea, emeralds, chestnut, Wellman described the woman's hair with tobacco and her eyes with fresh-squeezed grape pulp, which really gives a sense of beauty and location in the rustic backwood. Truly wonderful, I have not read anything similar before.

I will read "Desrick on Yandro" too.

Have tried to find a "best of" Wellman list. A few indications point toward After Dark, "Shonokin Town", "Up Under the Roof", "When it Was Moonlight", "Come Into My Parlor", "Fearful Rock", ... .

If you would ever like to get a pretty good rendering of central/western Appalachian dialect, try out Cormac McCarthy's The Outer Dark, or Child of God, if you haven't already.

I'm interested in how these dialects traveled west. As a kid, in rural California, I grew up with the sons and daughters of the grapes of wrath; I might as well have gone to grade school with the Joads. These folk came mainly from Arkansas/Oklahoma, but my guess is that many of their forebears came from with Appalachia or the deep south and really not that much prior to the migration to CA.

There are lots of differences, too. Where McCarthy heard "kindly" in the place where we on the west coast would use "kind of", I heard "kindy".

"I'm kindy (or kindly) tired today."

(Ah'm kindy tarred today.)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
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> As a kid, in rural California, I grew up with the sons and daughters of the grapes of wrath

The Residents moved from Louisiana to San Francisco, and started career from avant-garde art music. I don't think they ever felt the grapes of wrath. They became their own "free market capitalists", tongue-in-cheek. Buy or Die! was their slogan.


Here is their moody cover of Hank Williams' great song Jambalaya.
Live at the Fillmore - Jambalaya

Last night as I lay sleeping, ... I heard my darling call. ... And then I went to meet her ... by the singing waterfall.

Goodbye Joe, me gotta go me oh my oh
Me gotta go pole the pirogue down the bayou
My Yvonne, the sweetest one, me oh my oh
Son of a gun, we'll have big fun on the bayou

Jambalaya, a-crawfish pie and-a file gumbo
'Cause tonight I'm gonna see my ma cher amio
Pick guitar, fill fruit jar and be gay-oh
Son of a gun, we'll have big fun on the bayou.

The Thibodaux the Fontaineaux the place is buzzin'
Kinfolk come to see Yvonne by the dozen
Dress in style and go hog wild me oh my oh
Son of a gun we'll have big fun on the bayou



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 7 Aug 20 | 04:35PM by Knygatin.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you would ever like to get a pretty good
> rendering of central/western Appalachian dialect,
> try out Cormac McCarthy's The Outer Dark, or Child
> of God, if you haven't already.
>

He writes about pretty gritty matters, doesn't he?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you would ever like to get a pretty good
> > rendering of central/western Appalachian
> dialect,
> > try out Cormac McCarthy's The Outer Dark, or
> Child
> > of God, if you haven't already.
> >
>
> He writes about pretty gritty matters, doesn't he?

Pretty grim sometimes, yes.

The first and only time I read The Road, I had to put the book down for a while, when I realized the reality that the narrative POV was facing with his son.

It was this: all of his effort was to try as hard as he could to keep his son alive since toddlerhood, day-to-day, with utterly no real hope of anything being any better, and the constant threat that it was likely to be infinitely worse.

His legacy was to leave his young son, maybe 8, with a single bullet for a revolver, and the knowledge of how to use it to kill himself, in the very likely event that this would prove the best way out. This was his *greatest* possible gift, given the situation. The entire 6 year odyssey came down to that.

I've never had that happen before or since, where I put a down for a while before finishing it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Residents have their roots in the southeast backwoods, so I'll post one more melody, just for the hell of it. I realize their music and art can be very unpleasant. It is intentionally grating.

Here is a creepy one. I am curious how Lovecraft and Smith would have reacted if they saw this? Merely disgusted?
Love Leaks Out

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Residents have their roots in the southeast
> backwoods, so I'll post one more melody, just for
> the hell of it. I realize their music and art can
> be very unpleasant. It is intentionally grating.
>
> Here is a creepy one. I am curious how Lovecraft
> and Smith would have reacted if they saw this?
> Merely disgusted?
> Love Leaks Out


Hah!

Well, they're not for everyone, are they? ;^)

I can recall when they first made an impact in the Bay Area. I did not see them or hear them, but merely read *about* them.

OK, would Love Leaks Out have the same effect without the transitional face? To me, probably not. It would still be weird and compelling, but not necessarily grotesque.

Do you feel that they may well have affected David Lynch's visual sensibilities?

O think that this sort of art is valid. It doesn't need to have a point: its strength comes from what it evokes in the listener on the subliminal level. In this regard it s somewhat like Satie's piano stuff (Gnossienne 3, especially), or some minimalist compositions that basically sneak around the protection that they conscious can give us, and scares/disturbs us an a near primal level. This is NOT to say they are musically related, but are related in the way they can evoke an audience response.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Glad it found some reaction! I was younger when I saw this the first time, and it disturbed me badly. There have been discussions whether The Residents have influenced David Lynch, but I don't know if it's confirmed. I think they are quite different from each other, sharing the nightmarishly unpleasant. But sure, I think Lynch is aware of them. Lynch is such a strong individual that he almost seems to stand independent all on his own. Matt Groening, who created The Simpsons, is a big fan of The Residents.

They were not musically schooled, but grew into instruments and all manners of sound-making tools alongside their artwork. I think they musically belong among the giant geniuses of the other 1970s rock groups, but took a weird slant and therefore remained obscure. They have been accused of damaging pop/rock music development in the transition from the 70s into the future. I think their overall most typical and greatest record is probably Duck Stab / Buster & Glenn.

Sawfish Wrote:
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> Satie's piano
> stuff (Gnossienne 3, especially), or some
> minimalist compositions that basically sneak
> around the protection that they consciously can give
> us, and scares/disturbs us an a near primal level.
>

I listened to Gnossienne 3. It was quite beautiful. Made me think of a bodiless soul, lost and seeking for a new home, without too much hurry or panic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 Aug 20 | 06:33AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Satie's piano
> > stuff (Gnossienne 3, especially), or some
> > minimalist compositions that basically sneak
> > around the protection that they consciously can
> give
> > us, and scares/disturbs us an a near primal
> level.
> >

Ah, I typo'ed horribly, above. It changed my intended meaning...

Should be:

"[Resdients, Satie] or some minimalist compositions that basically sneak
around the protection that the conscious can give us, and scares/disturbs us an a near primal level."

My main point--and to me, this is important...I'm exploring this--is that certain works of art by-pass the conscious, sneaking past all conditioned defenses, like smug cynicism, hipness, etc.

In an emotional, reactive sense, they work the same way that viewing the liberation footage of the WWII death camps work: I could not avoid an emotional reaction, no matter what.

I'm now considering that some art also works the same way. Music especially.

...and by its nature, it is VERY powerful art.

>
> I listened to Gnossienne 3. It was quite
> beautiful. Made me think of a bodiless soul, lost
> and seeking for a new home, without too much hurry
> or panic.

Yes, I can see this, but...

I listen to a classical station to fall asleep to. I usually set the timer to 90 minutes. I awoke in the middle of the night, groggy, dissociative, and Gnossienne 3 was playing. I had never heard it before and it was *extremely* disorienting to me, in the half awake state, there in the dark.

It was very funny, later!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They were not musically schooled, but grew into
> instruments and all manners of sound-making tools
> alongside their artwork. I think they musically
> belong among the giant geniuses of the other 1970s
> rock groups, but took a weird slant and therefore
> remained obscure. They have been accused of
> damaging pop/rock music development in the
> transition from the 70s into the future. I think
> their overall most typical and greatest record is
> probably Duck Stab / Buster & Glenn.

I'll second the nomination of Duck Stab/Buster & Glen as the Residents' greatest record. I first heard that record when I was in college, and its unique mix of the humorous and the bizarre really spoke to me, and I still love it decades later. Now I need to go listen to it again....

Oldjoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll second the nomination of Duck Stab/Buster &
> Glen as the Residents' greatest record. I first
> heard that record when I was in college, and its
> unique mix of the humorous and the bizarre really
> spoke to me, and I still love it decades later.
> Now I need to go listen to it again....

That is very nice to hear! Incredible record, that only gets better and better with each listen.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > > If you would ever like to get a pretty good
> > > rendering of central/western Appalachian
> > dialect,
> > > try out Cormac McCarthy's The Outer Dark, or
> > Child
> > > of God, if you haven't already.
> > >
> > He writes about pretty gritty matters, doesn't
> he?
>
> Pretty grim sometimes, yes.
> The first and only time I read The Road, I had to
> put the book down for a while, when I realized the
> reality ...
> I've never had that happen before or since, ....

Grim social realism makes me upset and depressed. I have to avoid such literature and film, although I have seen my share.


Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you feel that they [The Residents] may well have affected David
> Lynch's visual sensibilities?
>
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Lynch
> is aware of them. Lynch is such a strong
> individual that he almost seems to stand
> independent all on his own.

I may add that DUNE is one of my very top favorite films. But I found BLUE VELVET and MULHOLLAND DRIVE too unpleasant (and could have done without them), and avoided TWIN PEAKS. I saw ERASERHEAD in my late teens, and it was curious; I may pay it a visit again.

Do you like David Lynch?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > > > If you would ever like to get a pretty good
> > > > rendering of central/western Appalachian
> > > dialect,
> > > > try out Cormac McCarthy's The Outer Dark,
> or
> > > Child
> > > > of God, if you haven't already.
> > > >
> > > He writes about pretty gritty matters,
> doesn't
> > he?
> >
> > Pretty grim sometimes, yes.
> > The first and only time I read The Road, I had
> to
> > put the book down for a while, when I realized
> the
> > reality ...
> > I've never had that happen before or since,
> ....
>
> Grim social realism makes me upset and depressed.
> I have to avoid such literature and film, although
> I have seen my share.

Funny observation: when younger, this sort of observed threat/distress was fairly meaningless to me, and I would say that my assumed POV as an observer/reader was seldom the object of the threat, it was either the threat, itself, or much more often, a totally detached observer.

But as I got older, and no longer viewed myself as immortal, as young males tend to do (!), I found it more and more disturbing on a personal level, as if I was now sharing the threat.

Then, just about when I turned 50, we had our daughter. After that it seemed like *everything* was a threat, if not to me (but remember: as an older guy this was increasingly the case, anyhow), then to her and/or my wife.

Hmmm... Now that I think about it, before I was married I felt much less threatened, but afterwards then perceived sympathetic threat increased.

Interesting...

>
>
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Do you feel that they [The Residents] may well
> have affected David
> > Lynch's visual sensibilities?
> >
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think Lynch
> > is aware of them. Lynch is such a strong
> > individual that he almost seems to stand
> > independent all on his own.
>
> I may add that DUNE is one of my very top favorite
> films.

Hah! Me, too.

But this puts us in a vanishingly small minority.

> But I found BLUE VELVET and MULHOLLAND
> DRIVE too unpleasant (and could have done without
> them),

I liked both quite a lot, but believe that MD is his best work. In particular, the combination of the narrative framing device (the shot at the beginning and the circumstance at the end) plus the revealed distortion of the central narrative due to the device of "unreliable POV" (like Oscar in The Tin Drum) was handled masterfully, and I'm waiting for it to return to Netflix or Amazon Prime so that I can see it again for no extra charge.

> and avoided TWIN PEAKS.


FWIW, I didn't think much of it. A Nancy Drew mystery adapted by the Marquis de Sade, with comic interludes concerning cops and doughnuts and the like.

> I saw ERASERHEAD in
> my late teens, and it was curious; I may pay it a
> visit again.
>
> Do you like David Lynch?

Oh, yeah....

The best balance of artistic vision and cinematic discipline we currently have, in my opinion.

Very, very consistent in this, and then you look at The Straight Story, and you realize he could easily be a first rate director of more conventional films, if he chose to.

You might compare this with Ridley Scott, who has zero narrative vision and the highest level of visual and cinematic discipline. He makes soooo many films that every now and then he stumbles--by blind luck, apparently--on strong material; he seems to treat both screenplays and actors as basically cogs in a visual machine. Mostly it's just visually excellent mush.

As always, my opinions, only.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Sawfish for your thoughts, both about inner changes coming with age and marriage and children, and about David Lynch.

I thought THE ELEPHANT MAN was a very fine film (sentimental perhaps, ... tragic surely), but have not seen it again since its first premiere.

I think I shall have to see MULHOLLAND DRIVE again. Actually I am not sure I watched it all the way through. The Hollywood setting, of showy materialistic lifestyle and the confused people struggling from the bottom periphery to attain it, does not have appeal for me.

I have not seen many of Ridley Scott's films. ALIEN is one of my top three favorite films. BLADE RUNNER never interested me (but now that I have begun reading a few books by P. K. Dick, perhaps I should see it again). LEGEND was very bombastic, not the way I see fantasy (especially not with "Top Gun" Tom Cruise! of all possible picks in the lead), but still having a few fine fairy images.

Tobe Hooper was another great! SALEM'S LOT (1979, full television version) is my all-time favorite film. THE TEXAS CHAIN SAW MASSACRE is perhaps too horrible, but much better than its early banning reputation. Someone has called it "a backwoods masterpiece of fear and loathing", which seems very fitting.

Must mention John Carpenter. THE FOG (1980)! Say no more! Say no more! Oh, GOD! That atmosphere! The natural authority! One of my top three favorite films.

I'd like to think that I can see and judge objectively, but all my favorite films I happened to see at my most impressionable age, in my teens. That may have something to do with it. And nostalgia. But to me it was, and is, the Golden Age. I don't like the cynicism and commercial coldness that has entered film since, it has a false strain, even when pretending to be warm. That is how I feel, without intention to offend any younger members here.

I was too young to have the Hammer horror films, with Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee, closest to my heart. But I can see why others do.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Sawfish for your thoughts, both about inner
> changes coming with age and marriage and children,
> and about David Lynch.
>
> I thought THE ELEPHANT MAN was a very fine film
> (sentimental perhaps, ... tragic surely), but have
> not seen it again since its first premiere.

I forgot about this. Fine effort but did not "click" for me.

>
> I think I shall have to see MULHOLLAND DRIVE
> again. Actually I am not sure I watched it all the
> way through. The Hollywood setting, of showy
> materialistic lifestyle and the confused people
> struggling from the bottom periphery to attain it,
> does not have appeal for me.

Definitely there's that, but those techniques I mentioned were irresistible.

It's a better "Day of the Locust".

>
> I have not seen many of Ridley Scott's films.
> ALIEN is one of my top three favorite films. BLADE
> RUNNER never interested me (but now that I have
> begun reading a few books by P. K. Dick, perhaps I
> should see it again). LEGEND was very bombastic,
> not the way I see fantasy (especially not with
> "Top Gun" Tom Cruise! of all possible picks in the
> lead), but still having a few fine fairy images.

Yes!

Some excellent visual imagery!

I liked especially the pirouetting black-clad figure dancing before the fire, near the end.

>
> Tobe Hooper was another great!

Yep!

> SALEM'S LOT (1979,
> full television version) is my all-time favorite
> film.

Saw it when it came out. Those little vampire kids outside the window scared the hell out of me.

> THE TEXAS CHAIN SAW MASSACRE is perhaps too
> horrible, but much better than its early banning
> reputation. Someone has called it "a backwoods
> masterpiece of fear and loathing", which seems
> very fitting.

Here's a fine minor teenage slasher film: Funhouse. Some tremendous imagery: the close up of a carnival barker, dead-eyed, cynically calling people to a freak show; a magician who purports to saw a woman in half, drinking from a silver hip flask, at first as if to project worldly conviviality, and later in the act, quickly, covertly, revealing it to be a deep and dark need rather than an urbane affectation; and horribly, the monster getting his clothes caught in the main horizontal drive gear beneath the merry-go-round, and being slowly and ineluctably dragged thru it.

Quite, quite grim, that last image.

>
> Must mention John Carpenter. THE FOG (1980)! Say
> no more! Say no more! Oh, GOD! That atmosphere!
> The natural authority! One of my top three
> favorite films.
>
> I'd like to think that I can see and judge
> objectively, but all my favorite films I happened
> to see at my most impressionable age, in my teens.
> That may have something to do with it. And
> nostalgia. But to me it was, and is, the Golden
> Age. I don't like the cynicism and commercial
> coldness that has entered film since, it has a
> false strain, even when pretending to be warm.
> That is how I feel, without intention to offend
> any younger members here.
>
> I was too young to have the Hammer horror films,
> with Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee, closest to
> my heart. But I can see why others do.

Hah! Those, and American International films were ones I used to take dates to at the local drive-in!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My apologies. I posted completely off topic again. Will post it elsewhere instead.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 23 Aug 20 | 08:52AM by Knygatin.