Kipling Wrote:
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> Platypus Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kipling Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Obviously we are all still involved in the
> > > controversy that arose in Heaven. God exists.
> > > Darwinism is a joke. Next subject.
> >
> > I never mentioned Darwinism, nor said that it
> was
> > a joke, nor even believe that it is a joke. I
> did
> > not come here to discuss religion at all,
> except
> > maybe in a historical sense. These issues keep
> > coming up because I am not a moral nihilist,
> for
> > which I make no apology. People don't like it
> > when I use the word "evil", even as applies to
> a
> > fictional character who chops women in half for
> no
> > reason. They keep telling me there is no such
> > thing as good and evil because God does not
> exist.
> > And I keep answering that I believe in God, so
> > let's agree to disagree on this, okay? And now
> > Knygatin is once again screaming at me about
> the
> > Jewish-Christian menace.
>
> Platypus, if you had said anything about Darwin I
> would have quoted you first. Darwin is a joke.
> Watson and Crick's DNA discovery was in 1953. So
> there is the whole field of molecular biology, in
> recent times, and the fossil records as they have
> accumulated. These both indicate that the time
> needed for theorized macro-changes in animal
> bodies (as opposed to small changes over time, not
> disputed) is simply not available. Impossible.
> The "controversy in Heaven" was the fall of
> Satan, and as I said, we are all involved in it
> and always have been.


Hi, Kipling.

This about Darwin is interesting. I would like to engage in a non-adversarial discussion. I am sure to learn something of value.

Let me outline in advance where I'll go in the proposed discussion: that the underlying mechanism of individuals of a given species surviving to reproduce with greater or lesser success in the aggregate derives from that individual's effectiveness in interfacing with its environment is valid. The sub-processes described by Darwin may be flawed, however.

Whew! I hope that's even a little clear...I will work on it more if requested.

So what I presently think is that Darwin believed the "progression" of a species was always as a result of minor incremental changes that allowed it to compete (and reproduce) more effectively than previous generations. I don't think he had much of an inking of what he actual physical mechanism for change was. I've since read more recent views that significant spontaneous mutation, which come in fits and starts rather than by slow incremental procession, is the primary agency by which species evolve.

To me, it matters little whether the initiator of species evolution comes slowly and incrementally, or in fits and starts, because overall, the modified individual must indeed be better suited to the environment in order to successfully reproduce.

Does this suit you? I've no objection in any case--it's how I learn is the reason I engage.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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All of you,
stick to the site\forum topic, or take it else where.

The Management.

Good of you to intervene, Boyd. :) The heated emotional discussions, of diametrically opposite perspectives and world views, were about to break down into full scale war and anarchy.

As to "pulp trash" - quality supernatural fiction, weird tales, and fantasy creations, like C. A. Smith's writings, can not be accused of that. Not in my world. But since the medium they happened to published in were newsstand pulps, with commercial pressures to deliver shallow entertainment, their literary starting point was difficult. Occasionally these writings drifted into pulp, as in some of R. E. Howard's work. But we connoisseurs like to pick the raisins out of the cake.

I'd also like to say, that it is good to back up such reading with scientific, historic, and other serious studies, as it helps deepen and enrich one's appreciation.

Similarly, HOLLYWOOD (which is a more extremely hostile environment to creative freedom, than Weird Tales was) cannot be equated with independent film.

I have to confess, though, that's Boyd's sudden appearance seems to confirm the existence of an all-seeing deity...

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Knygatin Wrote:
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> As to "pulp trash" - quality supernatural fiction,
> weird tales, and fantasy creations, like C. A.
> Smith's writings, can not be accused of that. Not
> in my world. But since the medium they happened to
> published in were newsstand pulps, with commercial
> pressures to deliver shallow entertainment, their
> literary starting point was difficult.
> Occasionally these writings drifted into pulp, as
> in some of R. E. Howard's work. But we
> connoisseurs like to pick the raisins out of the
> cake.

RE Howard, CA Smith, and HP Lovecraft, all wrote fiction for the pulp magazine market. Their stories "drifted into pulp" when they were accepted for publication by the pulp magazine editors. But we are all entitled to our opinions about specific authors and their specific works.

Someone else suggested that "Worms of the Earth", by Howard, was a very good weird tale, and I agreed. I'm not sure how this inspired the accusation that I "read pulp trash". But if you have a different opinion of "Worms of the Earth", that is fine.

I'm not sure I can pick a favorite weird tale from CAS's work. But the story that floats to the top of my mind at the moment is "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros".

REH and CAS are indirectly connected in that they were both part of the "Lovecraft circle". But this connection was mainly through Lovecraft, as far as I know. I'm not sure how much they had directly to do with each other, or what they thought of each other's work.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> RE Howard, CA Smith, and HP Lovecraft, all wrote
> fiction for the pulp magazine market. Their
> stories "drifted into pulp" when they were
> accepted for publication by the pulp magazine
> editors. ...

They had little other publishing options to turn to. I think in their case, along with a few more of their contemporaries, they outwitted the pulp magazine editors, and delivered better material than was expected or required for the market.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to confess, though, that's Boyd's sudden
> appearance seems to confirm the existence of an
> all-seeing deity...
>
> ;^)


It reminds me of a story by Arthur C. Clarke, in which enormous cosmic perspectives are suddenly compressed and focused on a tiny vital event, after which there is again complete silence, and another uneventful eternity comes to pass.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 Feb 22 | 04:25PM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have to confess, though, that's Boyd's sudden
> > appearance seems to confirm the existence of
> an
> > all-seeing deity...
> >
> > ;^)
>
>
> It reminds me of a story by Arthur C. Clarke, in
> which enormous cosmic perspectives are suddenly
> compressed and focused on a tiny vital event,
> after which there is again complete silence, and
> another uneventful eternity comes to pass.

HAH!!!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Knygatin Wrote:
> They had little other publishing options to turn
> to. I think in their case, along with a few more
> of their contemporaries, they outwitted the pulp
> magazine editors, and delivered better material
> than was expected or required for the market.

Maybe. But i think it is simpler to just realize that it is hard to tell the quality of a story by whether or not it is printed on cheap or expensive paper.

Quote:

Platypus
I'm not sure I can pick a favorite weird tale from CAS's work. But the story that floats to the top of my mind at the moment is "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros".

This is a good one, in my opinion.

I like the framing device of a sort of memoir concerning what became of the entity who took over Commorium after the unsuccessful attempts to execute him when he was in human form.

I think the same narrator has another story, Theft of the 39 Girdles, unless I'm mistaken. That story to me reads like Fritz Lieber in tone and mood.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
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> This is a good one, in my opinion.
>
> I like the framing device of a sort of memoir
> concerning what became of the entity who took over
> Commorium after the unsuccessful attempts to
> execute him when he was in human form.
>
> I think the same narrator has another story, Theft
> of the 39 Girdles, unless I'm mistaken. That story
> to me reads like Fritz Lieber in tone and mood.

Yes, THE THEFT OF THE THIRTY-NINE GIRDLES also features Satampra Zeiros, and I agree about the Fritz Lieber vibe. 39 Girdles is a late story (1958) by CAS, where he was less bitter and morbid. Another story from the same year is THE SYMPOSIUM OF THE GORGON, which I also like.

However, I think you are confusing THE TALE OF SATAMPRA ZERIOS with THE TESTAMENT OF ATHAMMAUS.

Quote:

Platypus
However, I think you are confusing THE TALE OF SATAMPRA ZERIOS with THE TESTAMENT OF ATHAMMAUS.

I thought that Satampra Zerios was telling about how he and another ne-er do well went back to Commorium, only a day away, to loot it of treasure, and got cornered in an abandoned temple by the gooey thing that the bandit executed by Anthammaus had become.

Both good stories!!!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought that Satampra Zerios was telling about
> how he and another ne-er do well went back to
> Commorium, only a day away, to loot it of
> treasure, and got cornered in an abandoned temple
> by the gooey thing that the bandit executed by
> Anthammaus had become.

It had not previously occurred to me that there was a connection between the two entities. Perhaps I need a re-read.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I thought that Satampra Zerios was telling
> about
> > how he and another ne-er do well went back to
> > Commorium, only a day away, to loot it of
> > treasure, and got cornered in an abandoned
> temple
> > by the gooey thing that the bandit executed by
> > Anthammaus had become.
>
> It had not previously occurred to me that there
> was a connection between the two entities.
> Perhaps I need a re-read.

...or maybe me...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~