Looking at his photos, he seems to exhibit the visible signed of immoderate smoking, at least, and I saw him holding a cigarette in at least one candid photo.

Too, he looks a bit dissipated, as if from immoderate drinking. Does anyone know if he was a heavy drinker?

I see that he made it to 68, which was pretty good for his era. However, this visibe signs seem to be there...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He smoked and he drank. I think toward the end of his life he drank immoderately. I strongly suspect that he may have dipped a toe a few times in the era's rather vibrant cocaine culture, usually injected cocaine (you can find all kinds of references to cocaine use in early twentieth century music) but I have no proof of that. I think it likely he had some experience of hashish too. But these are not quite assertions, they are just guesses. I would have to take time to do a lot of research to substantiate them...

And by the way he spent a lot of time outdoors in a desert. And he had fair skin...

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And by the way he spent a lot of time outdoors in
> a desert. And he had fair skin...


I didn't realize he got around that much. Which desert? In CA or elsewhere?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A desert--not really, a semi-arid area. WHen he was young he was agoraphobic, but later in life he spent a good deal of time wandering about under the sun in Auburn, California. He lived mostly in Auburn, until he got married in his 60s. He was said to be a womanizer, in Auburn...

My impression is that he did drink too much, as was mentioned a the beginning of this thread, and took trips to San Francisco and Sacramento at times, and had some connections that could have led to some experiences with cocaine. But for many years you could get cocaine in drugstores most places, early on. Some of his writing raises flags in my mind, as a former drug addict myself, and a person who used hashish, as being authentic drug experiences described afterwards; few authors actually write on hard drugs, as it tends to be incoherent. They write sometimes about experiences they had earlier...my own novel Wetbones is a horror novel partly about drug addiction, with supernatural symbolism...written after I'd given up all mind altering materials...All this because poster seemed to be wondering how he got so haggard looking, fairly young.

E. Hoffman Price's account on this Forum of his meeting with CAS certainly raises strong suspicions of heavy daily use of hard liquor, which in some people will eventually produce the ravaged countenance seen in photos. Smoking simply adds to the damage. John Shirley's speculations concerning drug use contributing to the images seen in some of CAS's writings may have some legitimacy, although, as he says, we have no proof. Anyway, it's a fascinating subject, and thanks, Sawfish, for bringing it up.

The single best piece of fiction that I've read about the long term use of opiates/opioids is Kipling's The Gate of 100 Sorrows.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not familiar with the Kipling story, but my 35 years as a clinical psychologist working with both acute and chronic psychiatric patients clearly demonstrated to me the devastating effects, both physical and mental, of long-term opioid and/or alcohol usage, much of which can turn out to be permanent. Some organ systems, notably the brain, can be damaged beyond repair.

The toll on creative people can be especially telling, as creative ability seems to be uniquely susceptible to the corrosive effects of intoxicants. This could at least partially explain why CAS produced little of value in the last 20 years of his life. But it would not be necessary to cite drugs as a causative factor, since alcohol alone can have much the same effect.

It is curious that CAS's work during his most productive period shows little evidence of the "whiskey writing" seen with other alcoholic writers, i.e., the same sort of intermittent incoherence which John refers to above in connection with acute drug intoxication. For me, CAS was rarely if ever incoherent in his best work, although his colorful, striking and brilliant imagery might well have been inspired at least in part by drugs other than alcohol.

But, who knows? Maybe CAS was just a literary genius whose output cannot be explained or defined in any meaningful way by conventional means.

Carl Glover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not familiar with the Kipling story, but my 35
> years as a clinical psychologist working with both
> acute and chronic psychiatric patients clearly
> demonstrated to me the devastating effects, both
> physical and mental, of long-term opioid and/or
> alcohol usage, much of which can turn out to be
> permanent. Some organ systems, notably the brain,
> can be damaged beyond repair.
>
> The toll on creative people can be especially
> telling, as creative ability seems to be uniquely
> susceptible to the corrosive effects of
> intoxicants. This could at least partially explain
> why CAS produced little of value in the last 20
> years of his life. But it would not be necessary
> to cite drugs as a causative factor, since alcohol
> alone can have much the same effect.
>
> It is curious that CAS's work during his most
> productive period shows little evidence of the
> "whiskey writing" seen with other alcoholic
> writers,

This is interesting. Can you give some examples of whiskey writing? I'll get the ball rolling by citing Hemingway's Islands in the Stream.

> i.e., the same sort of intermittent
> incoherence which John refers to above in
> connection with acute drug intoxication. For me,
> CAS was rarely if ever incoherent in his best
> work, although his colorful, striking and
> brilliant imagery might well have been inspired at
> least in part by drugs other than alcohol.
>
> But, who knows? Maybe CAS was just a literary
> genius whose output cannot be explained or defined
> in any meaningful way by conventional means.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Carl, if you look at photos of Smith, you will see that he had an unusually large forehead.

Also, Smith's friend Dr. Farmer has related that when he knew CAS in the author's old age, they would drink wine together, but Smith never behaved drunkenly. He was always crystal clear, and had instant access to his enormous vocabulary even when speaking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Jun 21 | 12:01PM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl, if you look at photos of Smith, you will see
> that he had an unusually large forehead.
>
> Also, Smith's friend Dr. Farmer has related that
> when he knew CAS in the author's old age, they
> would drink wine together, but Smith never behaved
> drunkenly. He was always crystal clear, and had
> instant access to his enormous vocabulary even
> when speaking.

...although in some of CAS's correspondence he related that Farmer could not "hold his likker" and often got "roaring drunk"...


;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Both Lovecraft and Smith had reputation for speaking as if straight out of a dictionary, using very specific words to get exact meaning in every sentence, without having to search for the words. Which is highly unusual in casual conversation.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ...although in some of CAS's correspondence he
> related that Farmer could not "hold his likker"
> and often got "roaring drunk"...
>
>
> ;^)


That's funny. Though I don't remember having read that in CAS's letters.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > ...although in some of CAS's correspondence he
> > related that Farmer could not "hold his likker"
> > and often got "roaring drunk"...
> >
> >
> > ;^)
>
>
> That's funny. Though I don't remember having read
> that in CAS's letters.

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > ...although in some of CAS's correspondence
> he
> > > related that Farmer could not "hold his
> likker"
> > > and often got "roaring drunk"...
> > >
> > >
> > > ;^)
> >
> >
> > That's funny. Though I don't remember having
> read
> > that in CAS's letters.
>
> :^)

;D

Just getting back to this thread, Sawfish. Sorry about the delay.

I've listed some of the writers and works that I've personally felt showed the effects of alcohol. I'm relying on memory alone, so there may be some errors.

Poe - Much of his stuff is incomprehensible to me. He goes off on strange wordy tangents that just make no sense.

Capote - "In Cold Blood" meanders around for most of its length, really going nowhere in particular. It's hard to follow what point he thinks he's trying to make. Only the last chapter has much value, and it is actually quite affecting.

Fitzgerald - "The Great Gatsby" is written in an unusual style that seems refreshing at first glance, but on second thought is inappropriate for the subject matter and hinders the advance of the story.

Hemmingway - "Hills Like White Elephants" is a non-story that has no reason for having been written.

Joyce - "Ulysses" requires no explanation. (However, his "Dubliners" stories are models of their kind. Go figure.)

Chandler - A strange mixture of incipient literary worth and hard-boiled PI elements. I can't follow him at all. Tellingly, even he could not say who killed the chauffeur in "The Big Sleep."

Lawrence Block - His PI Scudder spends much time just traipsing around the streets of NY with map-like precision in recounting names and distances, while adding nothing to the plot. This is an example of the irrelevances which the intoxicated writer may see as important but are distracting filler.

That's just a few off the top of my head.

In general, I've found that writers who repeatedly cite drinking by their characters are themselves alcoholic, which I guess is self-evident, really. Two of my favorite sci-fi authors (Anthony Boucher and Henry Kuttner) did this a lot, but in my reading only occasionally showed their alcohol use in other ways. So it's not always true that drinking inevitably damages the creative process -- just most of the time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20 Jun 21 | 07:11PM by Carl Glover.

Lovecraft was a teetotaller. (However, it seems unfortunately that industrially canned food containing metal depositions, and generally unsound eating habits, killed him prematurely.) Arthur C. Clarke was also a teetotaller. I think R. Corben was too. Overall I believe that is the best way to go, to keep healthy and the brain intact. But even more importantly, is to stay away from harder drugs.

Alcohol works the same damaging way as sugar on the body, building up fat in the liver and in other important organs like the heart and the brain; and, especially sugar (the single biggest drug today, insidiously and intentionally planted in most fabricated foods, tempting people to buy and eat more and more of it), inhibits the natural functions of the cells by causing too much insulin production, which lessens the cells' ability to take up nutrients and remove toxics.

But on the other hand, it seems that people who live the longest and happiest, have drank a moderate amount of alcohol through their lives; alcohol may have some positive effect in counteracting other diseases, like infections. But overall I would say alcohol definitely weakens the functions of the cells and organs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21 Jun 21 | 12:15AM by Knygatin.

Carl Glover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lawrence Block - His PI Scudder spends much time
> just traipsing around the streets of NY with
> map-like precision in recounting names and
> distances, while adding nothing to the plot. This
> is an example of the irrelevances which the
> intoxicated writer may see as important but are
> distracting filler.
>

This is very interesting. The sensation of "ecstatic inspiration" and "heightened cleared thinking" resulting from alcoholic intoxication, and whether some of this is genuine, or misleading and irrelevant as above, could be the subject of a whole separate discussion.

Interesting observations about alcohol, K.

The way it works for me and always has after I reached 21 (before that I just drank to show how cool I was, plus it tended to put you in contact with looser women--they tended to like "bad boys", I found) was to slow down my thought processes to something that would not drive me prematurely insane.

I'm a natural worrier, and by this I mean the definition that conveys a gradual and dogged shredding of something. I will tend to 'way over-think stuff that does not merit more than a passing thought.

Couple that with having an intellect that is something like an old, out-classed Intel 286 microprocessor, but thru BIOS configuration tricks has been made to run at 5X nominal clock speed. The poor chip will burn up--flame out!!! It physically cannot handle the throughput.

Alcohol reduces clock speed down to where the ol' CPU is running at a cooler, more reasonable rate, one that is well within intrinsic design limitations. Enough alcohol will even put the CPU into "sleep state" for a while--stand-by...

:^)

EDIT: Whoa! I almost forgot! There is this really eloquent but brief passage in a CAS story where he says that the character he is describing is older, and enjoys "drinking the vintages that are comforting to age". This has deeply resonated with me since I was about 60.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21 Jun 21 | 08:59AM by Sawfish.

This is great, Carl! Thanks for exploring this. It's fun and interesting...

Comments interleaved below:

Carl Glover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just getting back to this thread, Sawfish. Sorry
> about the delay.
>
> I've listed some of the writers and works that
> I've personally felt showed the effects of
> alcohol. I'm relying on memory alone, so there may
> be some errors.
>
> Poe - Much of his stuff is incomprehensible to me.
> He goes off on strange wordy tangents that just
> make no sense.

I was not aware that he used intoxicants. His stuff sure reads that way, but I always figured that he was a kind of self-promoting critic and invented much of his public image.

Certainly he was influential, But a lot of his stuff is just too excessive--too "purple" for my tastes.

(ASIDE: I am a BIG fan of Stephen Crane...)

>
> Capote - "In Cold Blood" meanders around for most
> of its length, really going nowhere in particular.
> It's hard to follow what point he thinks he's
> trying to make. Only the last chapter has much
> value, and it is actually quite affecting.

Read it and mostly forgot it, so I agree with you in general.

Too, I vaguely came away with the feeling that he was manipulating the ending to provide resonance for his chosen title...that if the central character killed in cold blood and was considered evil, then a judicial execution was no different in that respect.

>
> Fitzgerald - "The Great Gatsby" is written in an
> unusual style that seems refreshing at first
> glance, but on second thought is inappropriate for
> the subject matter and hinders the advance of the
> story.

Cripes, in my view Gatsby is the most over-rated novel of the 20th C. I could never understand the fascination with Fitzgerald's works, with the exception of the Pat Hobby stories, which were lightweight, but quite amusing.

>
> Hemmingway - "Hills Like White Elephants" is a
> non-story that has no reason for having been
> written.

No doubt I read it--and more than once--but cannot remember it so I have to agree with you.

>
> Joyce - "Ulysses" requires no explanation.
> (However, his "Dubliners" stories are models of
> their kind. Go figure.)

Not very familiar with Joyce: Finnegans Wake and Ulysses assigned in Lit classes, put me off.

>
> Chandler - A strange mixture of incipient literary
> worth and hard-boiled PI elements. I can't follow
> him at all. Tellingly, even he could not say who
> killed the chauffeur in "The Big Sleep."

Hah! The chauffeur was in the car, dead, and someone ran the car off the end of the Santa Monica pier and he admitted that he had no idea who did it, and ostensibly why!

I still read Chandler quite a bit. It's a sort of personal vacation I take by going to 1940s LA. I enjoy the settings and sometimes the hard boiled vernacular descriptions:

"It was a blonde. A blonde to make the a bishop kick a hole in a stained glass window..."

"She had a smile you could feel in your hip pocket..."

"There was a sound like two pansies fighting over a silk scarf..."

I knew/know some of the landmarks, and I think this is a large part. E.g., it's fun to try to figure out where Idle Valley is: my best guess is an early section of Encino.

Too, there is a lot of sexual tension, but no sexual release. Think of that: no coitus in any story I am aware of--and I'm not counting stuff like Playback and Poodle Springs, which were all, or in part, written by other authors, as I understand it (I started, but could not finish, Playback).

...and there were some real knockouts in those stories, too. The Mexican starlet in Little Sister (I believe)...

Plus he was a very engaging writer when he used Marlowe as his POV. An embittered idealist. A man with Golden Age ethics colliding with post-modernism. Probably a stand-in for Chandler, himself.

>
> Lawrence Block - His PI Scudder spends much time
> just traipsing around the streets of NY with
> map-like precision in recounting names and
> distances, while adding nothing to the plot. This
> is an example of the irrelevances which the
> intoxicated writer may see as important but are
> distracting filler.

Unfamiliar. Was one of his works made into a film, but it was set in LA instead of NYC?

>
> That's just a few off the top of my head.
>
> In general, I've found that writers who repeatedly
> cite drinking by their characters are themselves
> alcoholic, which I guess is self-evident, really.
> Two of my favorite sci-fi authors (Anthony Boucher
> and Henry Kuttner) did this a lot, but in my
> reading only occasionally showed their alcohol use
> in other ways.

I am unfamiliar with both. Can you give an example of how they might show alcohol use?

> So it's not always true that
> drinking inevitably damages the creative process
> -- just most of the time.

There were the Nick Charles stories by Hammett. Boy, were Charles and his wife (Nora?) ever big drinkers!

Great thread! Thanks for contributing!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The way it works for me and always has after I reached 21 ... was to slow down my thought processes to something > that would not drive me prematurely insane.
>
> I'm a natural worrier, and by this I mean the
> definition that conveys a gradual and dogged
> shredding of something. I will tend to 'way
> over-think stuff that does not merit more than a
> passing thought.
>
> ...
>
> Alcohol reduces clock speed ...
>
> :^)
>


I hope alcohol has worked out tolerably for you. Otherwise perhaps a few sessions with Carl Glover could have done wonders. :)

I have calmed down my own nerves through meditation, spiritual prayers, walks and observations in Nature, but also through psychological self-analysis to help me transcend some mental obstacles.


> EDIT: Whoa! I almost forgot! There is this really
> eloquent but brief passage in a CAS story where he
> says that the character he is describing is older,
> and enjoys "drinking the vintages that are
> comforting to age". This has deeply resonated
> with me since I was about 60.

I have a decadent aesthetic relationship to wine - taste is mixed with imagination - my ideals are much captured in CAS's "The Dark Eidolon"! In drinking wine, I like to re-experience the sunsets of lost years. And I wouldn't have objected to being served by a "kingly cadaver in robe of time-rotted brocade, with worms seething in his eye-pits, pouring a blood-like wine into a cup of the opalescent horn of unicorn".

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > The way it works for me and always has after I
> reached 21 ... was to slow down my thought
> processes to something > that would not drive me
> prematurely insane.
> >
> > I'm a natural worrier, and by this I mean the
> > definition that conveys a gradual and dogged
> > shredding of something. I will tend to 'way
> > over-think stuff that does not merit more than
> a
> > passing thought.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Alcohol reduces clock speed ...
> >
> > :^)
> >
>
>
> I hope alcohol has worked out tolerably for you.
> Otherwise perhaps a few sessions with Carl Glover
> could have done wonders. :)
>
> I have calmed down my own nerves through
> meditation,

Medication, you say?

;^)

> spiritual prayers, walks and
> observations in Nature, but also through
> psychological self-analysis to help me transcend
> some mental obstacles.
>
>
> > EDIT: Whoa! I almost forgot! There is this
> really
> > eloquent but brief passage in a CAS story where
> he
> > says that the character he is describing is
> older,
> > and enjoys "drinking the vintages that are
> > comforting to age". This has deeply resonated
> > with me since I was about 60.
>
> I have a decadent aesthetic relationship to wine -
> taste is mixed with imagination - my ideals are
> much captured in CAS's "The Dark Eidolon"! In
> drinking wine, I like to re-experience the sunsets
> of lost years. And I wouldn't have objected to
> being served by a "kingly cadaver in robe of
> time-rotted brocade, with worms seething in his
> eye-pits, pouring a blood-like wine into a cup of
> the opalescent horn of unicorn".

My God, K!

It is here we must part ways, my friend. Give Namirrah my best please, and my regrets that I had another previous engagement.

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I have calmed down my own nerves through
> > meditation,
>
> Medication, you say?
>
> ;^)
>

Actually it was TM, Transcendental Meditation. But eventually it gave me a headache, because I was unable to practice the technique correctly (that is, without effort). And I was too restless to sit still, bodily and mentally inactive for 20 minutes, two times a day.

Today I drank "a strange wine that was red and dark as if with disastrous sunsets of lost years", well overdue, having much sediment at the bottom of the bottle. Along with a fine dish of wild boar! "Feeling no warmth in my veins thereafter", I feared for "a chill as of hemlock mounting slowly toward the heart."
But my dread proved unfounded. I feel fine now. :) *... burp*

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > > I have calmed down my own nerves through
> > > meditation,
> >
> > Medication, you say?
> >
> > ;^)
> >
>
> Actually it was TM, Transcendental Meditation. But
> eventually it gave me a headache, because I was
> unable to practice the technique correctly (that
> is, without effort). And I was too restless to sit
> still, bodily and mentally inactive for 20
> minutes, two times a day.
>
> Today I drank "a strange wine that was red and
> dark as if with disastrous sunsets of lost years",
> well overdue, having much sediment at the bottom
> of the bottle. Along with a fine dish of wild
> boar! "Feeling no warmth in my veins thereafter",
> I feared for "a chill as of hemlock mounting
> slowly toward the heart."
> But my dread proved unfounded. I feel fine now. :)
> *... burp*

Hah!

Vintage from Atlantis?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

..."vintage from Atlantis" -- this reminded me of this poem I love by C. S. Lewis. Ignore the line numbering unless you go to the source.


THE END OF THE WINE by C. S. Lewis

(Printed in Punch, 3 December 1947 and The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, July 1964)

1. You think if we sigh as we drink the last decanter

2. We’re sensual topers, and thence you are ready to prose

3. And read your lecture. But need you? Why should you banter

4. Or badger us? Better imagine it thus: We’ll suppose

5. A man to have come from Atlantis eastward sailing–

6. Lemuria has fallen in the fury of a tidal wave;

7. The cities are fallen; the pitiless, all prevaling,

8. Inhuman ocean is Numinor’s salt grave.

9. To Europe he comes from Lemuria, saved from the wreck

10. Of the gilded, loftily builded, countless fleet

11. With the violet sails. A phial hangs from his neck,

12. Holding the last of a golden cordial, subtle and sweet.

13. Untamed is Europe, untamed–a wet desolation,

14. Unwelcoming woods of the elk, of the mammoth and bear,

15. The fen and the forest. The men of a barbarous nation,

16. On the sand in a circle are standing, await him there.

17. Horribly ridged are their foreheads. Weapons of stone,

18. Unhandy and blunt, they brandish in their clumsy grips.

19. Their females set up a screaming, their pipes drone,

20. They gaze and mutter. He raises his flask to his lips.

21. And it brings to his mind the strings, the flutes, the tabors,

22. How he drank with the poets at the banquet, robed and crowned;

23. He recalls the pillared halls carved with the labours

24. Of curious masters (Lemuria’s cities lie drowned),

25. The festal nights, when each jest that flashed for a second,

26. Light as a bubble, was bright with a thousand years

27. Of nurture–the honour and the grace unreckoned

28. That sat like a robe on the Atlantean peers.

29. It has made him remember ladies and the proud glances,

30. Their luminous glances in Numinor and the braided hair,

31. The ruses and mockings, the music and the grave dances

32. (Where musicians played, the huge fishes goggle and stare).

33. So he sighs, like us; then rises and turns to meet

34. Those naked men. Will they make him their spoil and prey?

35. Or salute him as god and brutally fawn at his feet?

36. And which would be worse? He pitches the phial away.


[www.discovery.org]

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Vintage from Atlantis?


I'd like to think the grapes grew under the hot disastrous suns of Zothique. The undead slaves of Namirrah reaping the crops to the best their ability from the parched land. (Or perhaps, more realistically it was from southern France - "Averoigne".)

"A vintage from Atlantis", I wonder where that might come from today? Madeira? The Canary Islands? A few years ago I studied a satellite photograph on Google maps, that shows the sea-bottom west of Canary Islands, revealing geometrical outlines! Lost Atlantis, possibly?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Vintage from Atlantis?
>
>
> I'd like to think the grapes grew under the hot
> disastrous suns of Zothique. The undead slaves of
> Namirrah reaping the crops to the best their
> ability from the parched land. (Or perhaps, more
> realistically it was from southern France -
> "Averoigne".)
>
> "A vintage from Atlantis", I wonder where that
> might come from today? Madeira? The Canary
> Islands? A few years ago I studied a satellite
> photograph on Google maps, that shows the
> sea-bottom west of Canary Islands, revealing
> geometrical outlines! Lost Atlantis, possibly?

Did you ever notice that in both A Vintage from Atlantis and Symposium of the Gorgon, we have the narrative POV be ***partially*** intoxicated or exposed to a sort of supernatural influence (Atlantean wine in one case, and a partial glance at Medusa in the other) that catalyzed the story?

Partial, not full, so that each POV lived to tell the tale...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Did you ever notice that in both A Vintage from
> Atlantis and Symposium of the Gorgon, we have the
> narrative POV be ***partially*** intoxicated or
> exposed to a sort of supernatural influence
> (Atlantean wine in one case, and a partial glance
> at Medusa in the other) that catalyzed the story?
>
> Partial, not full, so that each POV lived to tell
> the tale...

Yes, these stories too have heavily influenced my own wine-drinking! Especially "Symposium of the Gorgon", with its delirious Ancient Greek theme. The scene with the swans bathing in the pool of wine and delightfully drinking from it, is forever etched in my mind.

Hey my friend, we can't part ways now! We're almost there!!! You must follow me on the path to enlightenment!! I promise you, it won't be as bad or crazy as the tattooed implants that has scared you at fantasy conventions! This is the real deal. "We shall plan my escape from the madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Greece. We shall swim out in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Poseidonis, and dwell amidst wonder and glory forever." * ;)


* That was from "The Shadow Over Innsmouth", yet another profound inspiration on my way of thinking! I am forever in debt to these great men.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..."vintage from Atlantis" -- this reminded me of
> this poem I love by C. S. Lewis. Ignore the line
> numbering unless you go to the source.
>
>
> THE END OF THE WINE by C. S. Lewis
>

I like it.

Actually, on the Google map I mentioned earlier, with the geometrical outlines seen on the sea-bottom off the coast of Canary islands, there is also a perfectly straight line going from it and up to Europe, like some form of highway, too straight to merely be a geological structure.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ..."vintage from Atlantis" -- this reminded me of
> > this poem I love by C. S. Lewis. Ignore the line
> > numbering unless you go to the source.
> >
> >
> > THE END OF THE WINE by C. S. Lewis
> >
>
> I like it.
>

But on the other hand, it may be viewed as an anti-European tract, doesn't it?

Very enjoyable poem, Dale!

Thanks! I would never have found it...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:

> But on the other hand, it may be viewed as an
> anti-European tract, doesn't it?


Yes -- but the Europe to which the poem's sentiment is opposed is not the Europe of the Great West, that is, of Homer, Herodotus, and Virgil, Plato and Boethius, Bede and Byzantium, Florence and Wittenberg, Dante and Pascal, Malory and Shakespeare and Jane Austen and Dostoevsky; but the successor-Europe that includes the US and Canada and (as T. S. Eliot put it in his essay on Baudelaire) is "a world of electoral reform, plebiscites, sex reform and dress reform," this world of Marx and Henry Ford and Hitler and Mao and Ibram Kendi, etc.


Note correction to text of poem:

Untamed is Europe, unnamed

If you are a man of the Great West, be sure to support homeschooling, which is almost the last refuge thereof.

But my comment belongs better in the thread for discussion of miscellaneous topics. I'm going to copy it and the Lewis poem, and post them there. Please comment there.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 22 Jun 21 | 01:04PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
>
> > But on the other hand, it may be viewed as an
> > anti-European tract, doesn't it?
>
>
> Yes -- but the Europe to which the poem's
> sentiment is opposed is not the Europe of the
> Great West, that is, of Homer, Herodotus, and
> Virgil, Plato and Boethius, Bede and Byzantium,
> Florence and Wittenberg, Dante and Pascal, Malory
> and Shakespeare and Jane Austen and Dostoevsky;
> but the successor-Europe (as T. S. Eliot put it in
> his essay on Baudelaire) that is "a world of
> electoral reform, plebiscites, sex reform and
> dress reform," of Marx and Henry Ford and Hitler,
> etc.
>
>

"17. Horribly ridged are their foreheads. Weapons of stone,

18. Unhandy and blunt, they brandish in their clumsy grips."


I thought Lewis meant pre-civilized Europe. The land of Neanderthals. Which also may be a bit unfair, since they were comparably evolved for the time. And hardy. We still have some of their genes.

Knygatin, let's discuss the poem at the miscellaneous thread -- but, in reply to your comment, I suppose one could say that the situation is that of an ante-Europe, Europe before it was Europe but after the destruction of Atlantis. The Atlantean is going to bring the arts of civilization to those squalling beast-men, and the great Europe will eventually arise therefrom; but now (see the beginning of the poem), Lewis and other men of the Great West can see that Europe as it has been is coming to its end. Like the Atlantean they must resign themselves to this great loss.

Now this is a poem, not an essay or a book and I don't think one should take it that Lewis is expressing a conviction about what must happen -- but on the other hand he is quite serious about the likelihood of a terrible loss of civilization. It's not just the totalitarian slave-states that threaten civilization but the mind-forged manacles of Marxism and its various kin, and the Fordean idea that "history is bunk" -- what matters is keeping people occupied with consumer goods cheaply enough produced that they can keep buying them, etc. But if you want to comment on what I just wrote, please copy what you want to comment on and carry it over to the Super Thread of Art etc -- thank you! Let's let the present thread return to CAS and his use of alcohol etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22 Jun 21 | 01:20PM by Dale Nelson.