Just out of curiosity ... Does anybody have any idea who was the ghost in the short story Xeluca by M.P.Shiel? There is the passage in the tale that suggests it was not the old lady the guy was sitting with in the parlour. ("Xélucha died of cholera ten years ago at Antioch. I wiped the froth from her lips. Her nose underwent a green decay before burial. So far sunken into the brain was the left eye--")

Sorry, but I've never really connected with this story. I'd love for someone to explain it to me, because I am curious.

My guess is that the woman he encounters is indeed Xelucha, or a demon in her guise, or maybe Xelucha was always a demon. The story is weird enough that the revelation that Xelucha died 10 years ago hardly proves that this is not Xelucha.

The thought occurred to me at one point that the narrator is in Hell, but does not know it. But I can't really defend this idea because I'm not sure where I got it from.

Does anyone know if this story is available online?

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know if this story is available
> online?


Yes, it is. Right HERE.

To my shame, I still have not read this story. I will read it right away!

A while ago I read "Huguenin's Wife". An excellently atmospheric piece. M. P. Shiel really is a great writer. Comparable to Poe, as they say.

Well, not as profound as Poe, but similar in atmosphere.

Thanks!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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I read it. A difficult one. Demands concentration, expelling modern superficiality from the mind. I did not understand the beginning, ... poetic, and probably requiring further erudition. But their conversation, with its philosophical implications, became more and more horrible. And it is up to reader how much of its horror you want to absorb. I chose to shut off my mind after a while, because it became too much for me, and simply read the remaining part with a blind tunnel vision aimed for the finish.

I think that it's the ramblings of a drug addict--probably laudanum. He is profoundly addicted and probably has been for some time.

If this is accurate, it's an example of unreliable POV and you can count on nothing as being literally true.

"The habit is now confirmed in me of spending the greater part of the day in sleep, while by night I wander far and wide through the city under the sedative influence of a tincture which has become necessary to my life. Such an existence of shadow is not without charm; nor, I think, could many minds be steadily subjected to its conditions without elevation, deepened awe."

In a way, the tone is reminiscent of Kipling's Gate of the 100 Sorrows.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that it's the ramblings of a drug
> addict--probably laudanum. He is profoundly
> addicted and probably has been for some time.
>
> If this is accurate, it's an example of unreliable
> POV and you can count on nothing as being
> literally true.
>
>

That seems a very sensible observation, Sawfish. But "Xelucha" is not only that. Lovecraft wrote briefly of it in his famous essay on supernatural literature - "“Xélucha” is a noxiously hideous fragment". I don't have his letters handy, and can't remember what he wrote more of it to Smith and others. I think we are confronted by something awful here, and that it is best to stow this story away from further sight and study.

User Sad Marsh Ghost at the Ligotti forum wrote:

"The weird tale's origins likely lie in poetry as it existed within that domain long before the short story became its primary form. Samuel Taylor Coleridge's Christabel predates Poe and Le Fanu and is as lyrical as Aickman or de la Mare's works.

The closer to poetry a weird tale is, the purer it seems to me. M. P. Shiel's Ligeia knock-off Xelucha is a good example of a story in which plot is the least of its concerns. It is akin to music in its technique and intended effect. The more plot bound a weird/ghostly tale is, the more defined, codified and unmysterious it becomes. It's why I think Aickman's The School Friend is vastly superior to Lovecraft's The Dunwich Horror – both of which tell pretty much the same story, but Aickman is more concerned with the poetry of the scenario than materialist verisimilitude."

By the way, does anybody have any idea what Mr. Shiel means by "The Primordial"?

"The habit is now confirmed in me of spending the greater part of the day in sleep, while by night I wander far and wide through the city under the sedative influence of a tincture which has become necessary to my life. Such an existence of shadow is not without charm; nor, I think, could many minds be steadily subjected to its conditions without elevation, deepened awe. To travel alone with the Primordial cannot but be solemn. The moon is of the hue of the glow-worm; and Night of the sepulchre. Nux bore not less Thanatos than Hupuos, and the bitter tears of Isis redundulate to a flood. At three, if a cab rolls by, the sound has the augustness of thunder."

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think that it's the ramblings of a drug
> > addict--probably laudanum. He is profoundly
> > addicted and probably has been for some time.
> >
> > If this is accurate, it's an example of
> unreliable
> > POV and you can count on nothing as being
> > literally true.
> >
> >
>
> That seems a very sensible observation, Sawfish.
> But "Xelucha" is not only that. Lovecraft wrote
> briefly of it in his famous essay on supernatural
> literature - "“Xélucha” is a noxiously
> hideous fragment". I don't have his letters handy,
> and can't remember what he wrote more of it to
> Smith and others. I think we are confronted by
> something awful here, and that it is best to stow
> this story away from further sight and study.

Oh, it's awful, all right, K.

I think there exists a literature of decadence that ***hints*** at come just awful stuff. Sometimes I think I'll try to explore it, but get a bit queasy when I think of the stuff I've already read--and now Xelucha will join that list.

Here's another--the first work that led me to consider this area of vague but powerful currentsw of disquiet. I've mentioned it before and I hope mentioning it now is not redundant.

Maldoror by the Compte de L'autrmonte

[librivox.org]

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

The work's transgressive, violent, and absurd themes are shared in common with much of Surrealism's output;[3] in particular, Louis Aragon, André Breton, Salvador Dalí, Man Ray, and Philippe Soupault were influenced by the work.[a] Maldoror was itself influenced by earlier gothic literature of the period, including Lord Byron's Manfred, and Charles Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer.

In cinema, there's also some of the work of Visconti.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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2 comments in reference to the OP's original question
(1) I am aware of no hint that the lady she encounters is an "old lady". The suggestion is that he initially finds her attractive, but is turned off by such things as her morbid talk and (eventually) an odor of decay.
(2) Just before she appears to deny that she is Xelucha, the tells him that he just read of her in a letter of Cosmo's. But the letter of Cosmo's, at least the quoted part, only mentions Xelucha. The only other women mentioned are 3 mythical "harlots" to whom Xelucha is briefly compared.

Knygatin Wrote:
> That seems a very sensible observation, Sawfish.
> But "Xelucha" is not only that.

I tend to agree. The narrator tells us right off that his "reason is debauched", and based on what follows, we have no reason to doubt his word. But if there really is nothing more to it than that, I would have to say that M.P. Shiel is guilty of wasting his time and ours.

In case it helps, the epigraph of the story is from the Book of Proverbs. What follows is the relevant section, which the quoted part underlined:

7:4 Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: 7:5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.

7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement, 7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, 7:8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, 7:9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.

7:11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: 7:12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) 7:13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, 7:14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.

7:15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

7:16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.

7:17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.

7:18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.

7:19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: 7:20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.

7:21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.

7:22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; 7:23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.

7:24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.

7:25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.

7:26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.

7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 10:58AM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments in reference to the OP's original
> question
> (1) I am aware of no hint that the lady she
> encounters is an "old lady".

She says "I am old, and a philosopher." That is why I mentioned her as an old lady.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 10:57AM by Minicthulhu.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
> She says "I am old, and a philosopher." That is
> why I mentioned her as an old lady.

Okay. But surely the suggestion is not that she is an old lady, but rather that she is old, and something other than a lady or any other mere mortal being.

Re: the reference to "apples of Sodom".

This is a reference of kind of fruit referenced by Josephus, which according to him grew near the Dead Sea, near the site of the destroyed city of Sodom. It looked good to eat to the eye, but turned to ashes when plucked. Tacitus refers to a similar legend. There has been some debate as to whether the tale was inspired by some real plant of the region.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments in reference to the OP's original
> question
> (1) I am aware of no hint that the lady she
> encounters is an "old lady". The suggestion is
> that he initially finds her attractive, but is
> turned off by such things as her morbid talk and
> (eventually) an odor of decay.
> (2) Just before she appears to deny that she is
> Xelucha, the tells him that he just read of her in
> a letter of Cosmo's. But the letter of Cosmo's,
> at least the quoted part, only mentions Xelucha.
> The only other women mentioned are 3 mythical
> "harlots" to whom Xelucha is briefly compared.

There are strange hints about the passages of time, too.

It seems like the narrator is genuinely surprised about how old he has become--almost as if the transformation happened quickly--if not over night, then in a disproportionately short period of time. He mentions 3 days...he mentions falling into a trance like petite mal...

Too, he mentions the letters in the cista as having yellowed with age.

I begin to suspect that none of any of this ever existed outside of a drug-induced fantasy as recalled by a profoundly addicted individual.

Not sure, of course.

I really like stuff like this...

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> User Sad Marsh Ghost at the Ligotti forum wrote:
>
> "The weird tale's origins likely lie in poetry as
> it existed within that domain long before the
> short story became its primary form. Samuel Taylor
> Coleridge's Christabel predates Poe and Le Fanu
> and is as lyrical as Aickman or de la Mare's
> works.
>
> The closer to poetry a weird tale is, the purer it
> seems to me. M. P. Shiel's Ligeia knock-off
> Xelucha is a good example of a story in which plot
> is the least of its concerns.

Absolutely.

It is evocative, inspiring both fascination and repulsion, underlain by a vague dread.

And I think that's what the author was going for and not to convey a literal story about partying down with the likes of Cosimo, or literally meeting Xelucha. The story (plot) exists only as a vehicle to manipulate an emotional response.

> It is akin to music
> in its technique and intended effect. The more
> plot bound a weird/ghostly tale is, the more
> defined, codified and unmysterious it becomes.
> It's why I think Aickman's The School Friend is
> vastly superior to Lovecraft's The Dunwich Horror
> – both of which tell pretty much the same story,
> but Aickman is more concerned with the poetry of
> the scenario than materialist verisimilitude."

Xelucha leaves the same (or closely related) feeling as "Cordelia's Song".

“Cordelia’s Song from The King in Yellow” was published in Weird Tales (Apr 1938):

The moon shines whitely; I shall take
My silk umbrella, lest the moon
Too warmly fall upon the lake
And cause my bridal flowers to swoon.

The sparrow’s sorrow is in vain,
And so does he his bride forget.
I wed the long grass and the rain,
And seven sailors dripping wet.

And shall not you and shall not I
Keep tryst beside this silent stream,
Who thought that we should rather die
Than wed the peacock’s amber dream?

The moon shines whitely; I shall take
My silk umbrella, lest the moon
Too coldly fall upon the lake
And chill my bridal flowers too soon.

To a very large degree we have no real idea what's going on in either work, but there are disquieting hints...

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 12:26PM by Sawfish.

Sawfish Wrote:
> Too, he mentions the letters in the cista as
> having yellowed with age.

Maybe this a bigger clue than we moderns might suspect. This was written in 1896. Was this not before the age of mass-produced paper that turns yellow within a decade? I'm not sure. I'm no expert in such things.

Sawfish Wrote:
> It is evocative, inspiring both fascination and
> repulsion, underlain by a vague dread.
>
> And I think that's what the author was going for
> and not to convey a literal story about partying
> down with the likes of Cosimo, or literally
> meeting Xelucha. The story (plot) exists only as a
> vehicle to manipulate an emotional response.

Not sure I can join you here. I am not incapable of enjoying a story or poem without understanding it, but if I don't suspect it means something, the spell is broken.

When I was young, I enjoyed Simon & Garfunkel's "The Sound of Silence", but 40 years of wondering what in hades they are going on about, and getting no clue at all, has rather dampened my enjoyment.

Late in life, I finally got around to listening to T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" read aloud by Alec Guinness. Somewhat to my surprise, I rather enjoyed it. I'll be damned if I can explain its meaning, though. For all I can be sure, perhaps it has no meaning at all. But I could not have enjoyed it without suspecting it meant something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 04:19PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

parts edited...


> Not sure I can join you here. I am not incapable
> of enjoying a story or poem without understanding
> it, but if I don't suspect it means something, the
> spell is broken.
>
> When I was young, I enjoyed Simon & Garfunkel's
> "The Sound of Silence", but 40 years of wondering
> what in hades they are going on about, and getting
> no clue at all, has rather dampened my enjoyment.
>
> Late in life, I finally got around to listening to
> T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" read aloud by Alec
> Guinness. Somewhat to my surprise, I rather
> enjoyed it. I'll be damned if I can explain its
> meaning, though. For all I can be sure, perhaps
> it has no meaning at all. But I could not have
> enjoyed it without suspecting it meant something.

FWIW, this makes sense to me...

Much of the reason I read certain types of fiction is simply to escape--it doesn't have to make sense in any meaningful way, it simply has to follow its own rules.

Simply put, anything with a deus ex machina fails the test *unless* it is recognized within thge work as divine intervention. They sort of have to admit that "yep, we cheated".

So in my posts on this thread I included Cordelia's Song. I'm damned if I know what it's about, yet its uncanniness grips me...

There are disquieting inclusions...

"I wed the long grass and the rain,
And seven sailors dripping wet."

Wow! What's *that* all about? To wed implies not only a sacred social vow, but its consummation...but wait...seven sailors? Whoa!

Dripping wet, when mentioned right after long grass and rain? Hmmmm....sounds distastefully like a serial copulation...and she's *telling* us about it?!

Similarly, there are some disquieting sexual images in Xelucha. "...the wet sword of Orion..." and others.

So there's no real narrative, but there are purposefully disturbing desciptive passages, and my guess is that this is the actual payload.

But this is only my opinion.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
> Similarly, there are some disquieting sexual
> images in Xelucha. "...the wet sword of Orion..."
> and others.

"... wet sword" = "bloody sword". Betelgeuse is here called the "wet sword of Orion" because it is positioned more-or-less where people imagine the giant Orion holding a sword above his head. It is called "wet" because Betelgeuse is a red star, which in this context suggests blood on the sword.

So the dead priest is pointing an accusing finger towards Orion with his red (bloody) sword (= Betelgeuse), as if it were Orion who slew him. Whatever that means.

Seems a bit of a stretch to make this a sexual double-entendre. But I guess it is tempting, because the story certainly has sexual themes. Even so, I suspect this projects back in time the modern mania for sexual imagery. In 1896, Freud certainly existed, but I don't think his ideas had much penetrated the popular consciousness.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> > Similarly, there are some disquieting sexual
> > images in Xelucha. "...the wet sword of
> Orion..."
> > and others.
>
> "... wet sword" = "bloody sword". Betelgeuse is
> here called the "wet sword of Orion" because it is
> positioned more-or-less where people imagine the
> giant Orion holding a sword above his head. It is
> called "wet" because Betelgeuse is a red star,
> which in this context suggests blood on the
> sword.

I see it differently...

[en.wikipedia.org]

and

[en.wikipedia.org]

This interpretation puts Orion's sword and or scabbard suggestive at his groin.

>
> So the dead priest is pointing an accusing finger
> towards Orion with his red (bloody) sword (=
> Betelgeuse), as if it were Orion who slew him.
> Whatever that means.
>
> Seems a bit of a stretch to make this a sexual
> double-entendre.

Less so if the sword is at his waist.

> But I guess it is tempting,
> because the story certainly has sexual themes.
> Even so, I suspect this projects back in time the
> modern mania for sexual imagery. In 1896, Freud
> certainly existed, but I don't think his ideas had
> much penetrated the popular consciousness.

I agree that I may well be bringing a lot of this interpretation with me, dragging modern sensibilities along.

How did you view that passage from Cordelia's Song? Did you find it suggestive? This is entirely separate from Xelucha, but I'm using it as a an example of a passage with similar submerged sexual imagery.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see it differently...
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> )#/media/File:Orion_(constellation)_Art.svg
>
> and
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> This interpretation puts Orion's sword and or
> scabbard suggestive at his groin.

Shiel and wikipedia are clearly referring to very different things. Shiel refers to Betelgeuse, or alpha (that is, Alpha Orionis), which "shoulders the wet sword of Orion".

What wiki calls the "sword" is also sometimes called the "scabbard", according to wiki. And I guess the reason some call it the "scabbard" is because some prefer to imagine the sword itself as being in Orion's hand, or at his shoulder.

And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a no-no word then.

> Less so if the sword is at his waist.

The text explicitly places it at his shoulder -- at Betelgeuse.

> How did you view that passage from Cordelia's
> Song? Did you find it suggestive?

I have not really formed an opinion. But since you ask, the thought did occur to me that sailors dripping wet is suggestive of drowned sailors.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 07:51PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I see it differently...
> >
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> > )#/media/File:Orion_(constellation)_Art.svg
> >
> > and
> >
> > [en.wikipedia.org]
> >
> > This interpretation puts Orion's sword and or
> > scabbard suggestive at his groin.
>
> Shiel and wikipedia are clearly referring to very
> different things. Shiel refers to Betelgeuse, or
> alpha (that is, Alpha Orionis), which "shoulders
> the wet sword of Orion".
>
> What wiki calls the "sword" is also sometimes
> called the "scabbard", according to wiki. And I
> guess the reason some call it the "scabbard" is
> because some prefer to imagine the sword itself as
> being in Orion's hand, or at his shoulder.
>
> And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would
> not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a
> no-no word then.
>
> > Less so if the sword is at his waist.
>
> The text explicitly places it at his shoulder -
> near Betelgeuse.

All sounds fine to me. I'll look again.

>
> > How did you view that passage from Cordelia's
> > Song? Did you find it suggestive?
>
> I have not really formed an opinion. But since
> you ask, the thought did occur to me that sailors
> dripping wet is suggestive of drowned sailors.

That's what I thought, too. The drowned sailors from Isle of the Torturers *immediately* jumped to mind. Very creepy.

I later softened the image to mere serial coitus.

Not very reassuring in any case, is it?

I view inclusions such as these as purposeful "mood influencers". In some works--those that attempt nothing more than many prose poems aim for--their goal seems to be setting a mood or emotional taste that's left with the reader.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit more about the passage referencing Betelgeuse...

Quote:

Xelucha:
Once, at two, near a corner, I came upon a priest, seated, dead, leering, his legs bent. One arm, supported on a knee, pointed with rigid accusing forefinger obliquely upward. By exact observation, I found that he indicated Betelgeux, the star ‘a’ which shoulders the wet sword of Orion.

I came pretty close to laughing aloud at this segment.

He finds a seated corpse, apparently near a street corner at 2 AM. As unlikely as this may be, it's compounded because this is a priest.

All well and good I suppose, but the priest (dead of dropsy, with a leer on his face), is seated upright somewhat. Strange as it seems he's pointing obliquely upward (a low angle, I'd suppose), so for the narrator to have determined with certainty where the priest pointed, he'd have to have gotten down on his hands and knees and squinted along the priest's arm and finger, a lot like aiming a rifle.

And I immediately thought:

"Yep. That seems natural, when finding a dead body at 2 AM: stoop down and see where, exactly, his finger is pointing...

"It's exactly what I'd do, too...".

I agree that the way Shiel describes Orion's sword it is as being "shouldered" on Betelgeuse, but I find no other references that anyone else envisions it as anything but a club. Certainly, the configuration resembles something a lot more like a club.

But as you say, it's how Shiel describes it...

What do you suppose the segment:

"... the star ‘a’ which shoulders..."

What is "star 'a"", do you think?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
> And I immediately thought:
>
> "Yep. That seems natural, when finding a dead body
> at 2 AM: stoop down and see where, exactly, his
> finger is pointing...
>
> "It's exactly what I'd do, too...".


Well, I guess he was not lying when he said his reason was debauched.

When did he last meet someone who was actually alive?

It is also amusing to imagine him crawling through long, lightless tunnels to reach Cosmo's palace, which he imagines to be a Roman villa. I guess it must be something else.


> What is "star 'a"", do you think?


It's just another name for Betelgeuse.

The major, visible, stars in constellations are distinguished by designating them with Greek letters in their traditional order: alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, etc. For instance, I guess you've heard that our closest star is "Alpha Centauri", which is the first (alpha) star in the constellation Centaurus ("the Centaur"). Another very close star, only 13 light years away, is Epsilon Eridani, which is the fifth (epsilon) star in the southern constellation Eridanus ("the River"). The alpha star of the constellation of Orion, "alpha Orionis", is better known as Betelgeuse.

>
> That's what I thought, too. The drowned sailors
> from Isle of the Torturers *immediately* jumped to
> mind. Very creepy.
>
> I later softened the image to mere serial coitus.
>
> Not very reassuring in any case, is it?

No, I guess not.

I can be a bit reluctant in assigning sexual interpretations to stuff written before the mid 20th century. I really do suspect people thought differently then. I guess I am just about the only person in the world who does not think CARMILLA is about lesbians.

Several interesting observations Platypus, and Sawfish.

However, I don't like "Xelucha". It may for its purposes contain many symbolic counterparts and references, but I still don't find it exiting. It is not a story. Is has no fantasy elements. As Lovecraft briefly said of it, it is merely noxious. And the horror in it, is a philosophical slap straight on the face of the reader; dismissing Life as an illusion, and reminding us of missed chances and regrets, that can't be repaired. It is a viciously pessimistic and miserable text. (I can well understand if he was an unsympathetic person, as biographical details hint at.) Even worse so than Poe; he at least brought in beautiful aesthetics to express his personal sorrows.

I find "Huguenin's Wife" and "The House of Sounds" (or possibly its early version "Vaila", which I have not yet read) much more enjoyable. They have memorable fantasy elements, and a gradual structural build up.

Quote:

Platypus
And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a no-no word then.

Actually, that is a different “bloody” from the “bloody” that was so scandalously used in Shaw’s Pygmalion, first performed in 1913.

“Bloody” in the sense of “covered in blood” was never problematic, but “bloody” as a swear word was, because it is a contraction of “by our Lady” -- just like “goodbye” is a contraction of “God be with you” -- and as such was considered blasphemous.

Quote:

Sawfish
Maldoror by the Comte de Lautréamont

Ha! I remember reading this on the train a few years ago and thinking, while in the middle of a particularly violent passage, that I was glad that mind readers don’t exist, because I would surely have gotten some attention from the authorities if someone could have looked into my mind at that moment…

> There are strange hints about the passages of
> time, too.


That is right, the hints about time are really weird. At one point he says: "At my age, with my physique, to walk staggery, like a man stricken! ... Truly, I can no more call myself a young man." Judging by these sentences, one would say he is still a young man but a moment later we come to know the letters of Cosmo “are turning sere!“ Which is really strange because the correspondence seems to be very old but, on the other hand, the young narrator is evidently familiar with the content of the letters which revives his memory so he can remember he was present in person at the bacchanal in the palaces of Cosmo which is mentioned in the letters. So I wonder how old the young man really was when he danced the minuet and waltz …

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would
> not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a
> no-no word then.
>
>
> Actually, that is a different “bloody” from
> the “bloody” that was so scandalously used in
> Shaw’s Pygmalion, first performed in 1913.
>
> “Bloody” in the sense of “covered in
> blood” was never problematic, but “bloody”
> as a swear word was, [....]

I understand the distinction you are drawing, but I think you are being too rational about it. Taboos have a life of their own. And if you have to stop and think about a word before it becomes shocking and scandalous, then it's not going to be that shocking and scandalous. And in this case there was no actual literal blood on the bloody sword, which would add an additional layer of ambiguity to your fine distinction. Maybe he could have gotten away with "bloodstained sword", but I guess "wet sword" was both shorter and safer.

When in 1887 GIlbert & Sullivan released their gothic-themed comic opera "Ruddygore" there was some backlash against it because the name reminded certain hoity-toity people of that no-no word "bloody". Gilbert then changed the name to "Ruddigore" in an attempt to assuage the backlash. Never mind that there had never (previously) been a taboo against the word "ruddy". It had now been tarred by association, with some help from the logic that if "gore" is "ruddy" it is probably "bloody" too (but only in the sense that you just said was not taboo). "Ruddigore" was less successful than many previous Gilbert & Sullivan efforts, and I suspect this had far more to do with its artistic flaws than any taboo associations of its name. But nonetheless, you can bet that publishers and editors sat up and took notice and became maybe just a bit more paranoid.

I did a google book search for uses of the word "bloody" during the period 1891-1900. There were hits of course, mostly in dictionaries, and concordances, and other books of reference. But it seems that if a writer felt he had a choice, he would always use another word, or maybe just avoided the reference. For instance "bloodstained" was then being used in medical texts.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 6 Jun 21 | 09:33AM by Platypus.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > There are strange hints about the passages of
> > time, too.
>
>
> That is right, the hints about time are really
> weird. At one point he says: "At my age, with my
> physique, to walk staggery, like a man stricken!
> ... Truly, I can no more call myself a young man."
> Judging by these sentences, one would say he is
> still a young man but a moment later we come to
> know the letters of Cosmo “are turning sere!“
> Which is really strange because the correspondence
> seems to be very old but, on the other hand, the
> young narrator is evidently familiar with the
> content of the letters which revives his memory so
> he can remember he was present in person at the
> bacchanal in the palaces of Cosmo which is
> mentioned in the letters. So I wonder how old the
> young man really was when he danced the minuet and
> waltz …

For some reason, I really like this kind of induced uncertainty.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks, Platypus!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for the Ruddygore anecdote, Platypus -- most enlightening.

Quote:

Platypus
if you have to stop and think about a word before it becomes shocking and scandalous, then it's not going to be that shocking and scandalous.

That’s a really good point. I will have to think about it. It reminds me of those instances where people got in trouble for using the word “niggardly”.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Several interesting observations Platypus, and
> Sawfish.
>
> However, I don't like "Xelucha". It may for its
> purposes contain many symbolic counterparts and
> references, but I still don't find it exiting. It
> is not a story. Is has no fantasy elements. As
> Lovecraft briefly said of it, it is merely
> noxious. And the horror in it, is a philosophical
> slap straight on the face of the reader;
> dismissing Life as an illusion, and reminding us
> of missed chances and regrets, that can't be
> repaired. It is a viciously pessimistic and
> miserable text. (I can well understand if he was
> an unsympathetic person, as biographical details
> hint at.) Even worse so than Poe; he at least
> brought in beautiful aesthetics to express his
> personal sorrows.
>
> I find "Huguenin's Wife" and "The House of Sounds"
> (or possibly its early version "Vaila", which I
> have not yet read) much more enjoyable. They have
> memorable fantasy elements, and a gradual
> structural build up.


All told, Xelucha "feels" filthy, debased, deranged.

K, this is a lot the same impression ("feel") that I get from Ligotti, after reading a bit too much of him in too short a period.

Now, as if that wasn't bad enough, I also get the unsupported impression that he kinda *likes* it...

Last comment: does anyone sense a similarity in theme and execution between Xelucha and HPL's The Outsider?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> K, this is a lot the same impression ("feel") that
> I get from Ligotti, after reading a bit too much
> of him in too short a period.
>
> Now, as if that wasn't bad enough, I also get the
> unsupported impression that he kinda *likes*
> it...
>

He crossed my mind too. But Ligotti has imagination, aesthetics, and a sense of humor, in the midst of all the darkness.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I find "Huguenin's Wife" and "The House of Sounds"
> (or possibly its early version "Vaila", which I
> have not yet read) much more enjoyable. They have
> memorable fantasy elements, and a gradual
> structural build up.


"The House Of Sounds" (Vaila) is fantastic. I also have a soft spot for "The Place of Pain" with its cosmic horror elements and "The Case of Euphemia Raphash", a bizzare mystery - detective tale with a strange, unexpected twist at the end.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "The House Of Sounds" (Vaila) is fantastic. I also
> have a soft spot for "The Place of Pain" with its
> cosmic horror elements and "The Case of Euphemia
> Raphash", a bizzare mystery - detective tale with
> a strange, unexpected twist at the end.


Thank you.

Quote: Synopsis [for "The Place of Pain"]: One of "two important tales assembled in" the 1935 collection, "about a natural water lens that shows horrors on the Moon"

Sounds intriguing! Available here.

Knygatin Wrote:
> However, I don't like "Xelucha". It may for its
> purposes contain many symbolic counterparts and
> references, but I still don't find it exiting. It
> is not a story. Is has no fantasy elements. As
> Lovecraft briefly said of it, it is merely
> noxious. And the horror in it, is a philosophical
> slap straight on the face of the reader;
> dismissing Life as an illusion, and reminding us
> of missed chances and regrets, that can't be
> repaired. It is a viciously pessimistic and
> miserable text.

I neither agree nor disagree. Before folks began this thread, I had read it two or three times and had gotten little out of it. I had no real fun with the story until I tried to figure it out for this thread. And since I'm not sure I succeeded in figuring it out, I'm reluctant to pass judgment.

But yeah. It certainly is unpleasant. I'm not sure what message it might have that would justify how intensely unpleasant it is. But then again, I don't exactly mind that he has made debauchery seem completely unappealing.

I had vaguely associated this story in my mind with Theophile Gautier's earlier tale La Morte Amoureuse. That was another morbid story with sexual themes, about a harlot/corpse/demon. And I did not really like that one either, to the extent I understood it. In fact, I think maybe I prefer Xelucha.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I neither agree nor disagree. Before folks began
> this thread, I had read it two or three times and
> had gotten little out of it. I had no real fun
> with the story until I tried to figure it out for
> this thread. And since I'm not sure I succeeded
> in figuring it out, I'm reluctant to pass
> judgment.
>
> But yeah. It certainly is unpleasant. I'm not
> sure what message it might have that would justify
> how intensely unpleasant it is. But then again, I
> don't exactly mind that he has made debauchery
> seem completely unappealing.
>

Perhaps "Xelucha" is a reflection of horrors tearing away at his own soul. I am not familiar with the biographical details, and probably don't want to be either, but I understand that he committed some atrocious debaucheries himself.