There was a brief discussion in the fantasy and sci-fi thread about memorable monsters in literature, and it made me appreciate how utterly unique and marvelous many of CAS' creatures can be. He and HPL had such talent when it came to creating distinctive entities, and giving them highly original stories that bring them to unearthly life with every reading, almost like incantations to summon real gods and demons!

Sometimes they don't have to be the focal point of a story. Sometimes they're woven with the narrative or setting like fabulous gargoyles and grotesque vignettes, as demonstrated in this menagerie from "The Dark Eidolon."

Quote:

Then, into the hall, there filed an array of tall mummies, clad in royal cerements of purple and scarlet, and wearing gold crowns on their withered craniums. And after them, like servitors, came gigantic skeletons who wore loin-cloths of nacarat orange and about whose upper skulls, from brow to crown, live serpents of banded saffron and ebon had wrapped themselves for head-dresses. And the mummies bowed before Zotulla, saying with thin, sere voices:

"We, who were kings of the wide realm of Tasuun aforetime, have been sent as a guard of honor for the emperor Zotulla, to attend him as is befitting when he goes forth to the feast prepared by Namirrha."

[...]Then, coming forward, the mummies said in dusty accents: "All is made ready, and the feast awaits the arrival of Zotulla." And the cerements of the mummies stirred and fell open at the bosom, and small rodent monsters, brown as bitumen, eyed as with accursed rubies, reared forth from the eaten hearts of the mummies like rats from their holes and chittered shrilly in human speech, repeating the words. The skeletons in turn took up the solemn sentence; and the black and saffron serpents hissed it from their skulls; and the words were repeated lastly in baleful rumblings by certain furry creatures of dubious form, hitherto unseen by Zotulla, who sat behind the ribs of the skeletons as if in cages of white wicker.

Quote:

Coming to the open portals of Namirrha's house, the emperor saw that they were guarded by great crimson-wattled things, half dragon, half man, who bowed before him, sweeping their wattles like bloody besoms on the flags of dark onyx. And the emperor passed with Obexah between the louting monsters, with the mummies, the skeletons and his own people behind him in strange pageant, and entered a vast and multicolumned hall, where the daylight, following timidly, was drowned by the baleful arrogant blaze of a thousand lamps.

Quote:

In the wide intervals between the tables, the familiars of Namirrha and his other servants went to and fro incessantly, as if a fantasmagoria of ill dreams were embodied before the emperor. Kingly cadavers in robes of time-rotted brocade, with worms seething in their eye-pits, poured a blood-like wine into cups of the opalescent horn of unicorns. Lamias, trident-tailed, and four-breasted chimeras, came in with fuming platters lifted high by their brazen claws. Dog-headed devils, tongued with lolling flames, ran forward to offer themselves as ushers for the company. And before Zotulla and Obexah, there appeared a curious being with the full-fleshed lower limbs and hips of a great black woman and the clean-picked bones of some titanic ape from thereupward.

Quote:

"Now, I fear," said Namirrha, "that you find the meat devoid of savor, and the wine without fire. So, to enliven our feasting, I shall call forth my singers and my musicians."

He spoke a word unknown to Zotulla or Obexah, which sounded throughout the mighty hall as if a thousand voices in turn had taken it up and prolonged it. Anon there appeared the singers, who were she-ghouls with shaven bodies and hairy shanks, and long yellow tushes full of shredded carrion curving across their chaps from mouths that fawned hyena-wise on the company. Behind them entered the musicians, some of whom were male devils pacing erect on the hind-quarters of sable stallions and plucking with the fingers of white apes at lyres of the bone and sinew of cannibals from Naat; and others were pied satyrs puffing their goatish cheeks at hautboys formed from the bosom-skin of Negro queens and the horn of rhinoceri.

They bowed before Namirrha with grotesque ceremony. Then, without delay, the she-ghouls began a most dolorous and execrable howling, as of jackals that have sniffed their carrion; and the satyrs and devils played a lament that was like the moaning of desert-born winds through forsaken palace harems. And Zotulla shivered, for the singing filled his marrow with ice, and the music left in his heart a desolation as of empires fallen and trod under by the iron-shod hooves of time. Ever, amid that evil music, he seemed to hear the sifting of sand across withered gardens, and the windy rustling of rotted silks upon couches of bygone luxury, and the hissing of coiled serpents from the low fusts of shattered columns. And the glory that had been Ummaos seemed to pass away like the blown pillars of the simoom.

Perhaps these particular descriptions aren't for everyone, but this can be a thread for monster appreciation in general! Monsters clearly have a special place in culture. They are represented everywhere in Egyptian hieroglyphs, Hindu temples, Balinese masks and sculptures, Chinese scrolls, and the like.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27 Jun 21 | 12:10AM by Hespire.

The dragon. I can't find many more words right now for this marvelous monster. But the dragon is so profound, that it is real.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was a brief discussion in the fantasy and
> sci-fi thread about memorable monsters in
> literature, and it made me appreciate how utterly
> unique and marvelous many of CAS' creatures can
> be. He and HPL had such talent when it came to
> creating distinctive entities, and giving them
> highly original stories that bring them to
> unearthly life with every reading, almost like
> incantations to summon real gods and demons!
>
> Sometimes they don't have to be the focal point of
> a story. Sometimes they're woven with the
> narrative or setting like fabulous gargoyles and
> grotesque vignettes, as demonstrated in this
> menagerie from "The Dark Eidolon."
>
> Then, into the hall, there filed an array of tall
> mummies, clad in royal cerements of purple and
> scarlet, and wearing gold crowns on their withered
> craniums. And after them, like servitors, came
> gigantic skeletons who wore loin-cloths of nacarat
> orange and about whose upper skulls, from brow to
> crown, live serpents of banded saffron and ebon
> had wrapped themselves for head-dresses. And the
> mummies bowed before Zotulla, saying with thin,
> sere voices:
>
>
> "We, who were kings of the wide realm of Tasuun
> aforetime, have been sent as a guard of honor for
> the emperor Zotulla, to attend him as is befitting
> when he goes forth to the feast prepared by
> Namirrha."
>
> [...]Then, coming forward, the mummies said in
> dusty accents: "All is made ready, and the feast
> awaits the arrival of Zotulla." And the cerements
> of the mummies stirred and fell open at the bosom,
> and small rodent monsters, brown as bitumen, eyed
> as with accursed rubies, reared forth from the
> eaten hearts of the mummies like rats from their
> holes and chittered shrilly in human speech,
> repeating the words. The skeletons in turn took up
> the solemn sentence; and the black and saffron
> serpents hissed it from their skulls; and the
> words were repeated lastly in baleful rumblings by
> certain furry creatures of dubious form, hitherto
> unseen by Zotulla, who sat behind the ribs of the
> skeletons as if in cages of white wicker.
>
> Coming to the open portals of Namirrha's house,
> the emperor saw that they were guarded by great
> crimson-wattled things, half dragon, half man, who
> bowed before him, sweeping their wattles like
> bloody besoms on the flags of dark onyx. And the
> emperor passed with Obexah between the louting
> monsters, with the mummies, the skeletons and his
> own people behind him in strange pageant, and
> entered a vast and multicolumned hall, where the
> daylight, following timidly, was drowned by the
> baleful arrogant blaze of a thousand lamps.
>
> In the wide intervals between the tables, the
> familiars of Namirrha and his other servants went
> to and fro incessantly, as if a fantasmagoria of
> ill dreams were embodied before the emperor.
> Kingly cadavers in robes of time-rotted brocade,
> with worms seething in their eye-pits, poured a
> blood-like wine into cups of the opalescent horn
> of unicorns. Lamias, trident-tailed, and
> four-breasted chimeras, came in with fuming
> platters lifted high by their brazen claws.
> Dog-headed devils, tongued with lolling flames,
> ran forward to offer themselves as ushers for the
> company. And before Zotulla and Obexah, there
> appeared a curious being with the full-fleshed
> lower limbs and hips of a great black woman and
> the clean-picked bones of some titanic ape from
> thereupward.
>
> "Now, I fear," said Namirrha, "that you find the
> meat devoid of savor, and the wine without fire.
> So, to enliven our feasting, I shall call forth my
> singers and my musicians."
>
>
> He spoke a word unknown to Zotulla or Obexah,
> which sounded throughout the mighty hall as if a
> thousand voices in turn had taken it up and
> prolonged it. Anon there appeared the singers, who
> were she-ghouls with shaven bodies and hairy
> shanks, and long yellow tushes full of shredded
> carrion curving across their chaps from mouths
> that fawned hyena-wise on the company. Behind them
> entered the musicians, some of whom were male
> devils pacing erect on the hind-quarters of sable
> stallions and plucking with the fingers of white
> apes at lyres of the bone and sinew of cannibals
> from Naat; and others were pied satyrs puffing
> their goatish cheeks at hautboys formed from the
> bosom-skin of Negro queens and the horn of
> rhinoceri.
>
> They bowed before Namirrha with grotesque
> ceremony. Then, without delay, the she-ghouls
> began a most dolorous and execrable howling, as of
> jackals that have sniffed their carrion; and the
> satyrs and devils played a lament that was like
> the moaning of desert-born winds through forsaken
> palace harems. And Zotulla shivered, for the
> singing filled his marrow with ice, and the music
> left in his heart a desolation as of empires
> fallen and trod under by the iron-shod hooves of
> time. Ever, amid that evil music, he seemed to
> hear the sifting of sand across withered gardens,
> and the windy rustling of rotted silks upon
> couches of bygone luxury, and the hissing of
> coiled serpents from the low fusts of shattered
> columns. And the glory that had been Ummaos seemed
> to pass away like the blown pillars of the
> simoom.
>
> Perhaps these particular descriptions aren't for
> everyone, but this can be a thread for monster
> appreciation in general! Monsters clearly have a
> special place in culture. They are represented
> everywhere in Egyptian hieroglyphs, Hindu temples,
> Balinese masks and sculptures, Chinese scrolls,
> and the like.

This is precisely why I read CAS.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The dragon. I can't find many more words right now
> for this marvelous monster. But the dragon is so
> profound, that it is real.


For something with only a sentence of description, I found the human-dragons quite mesmerizing as well. I can only imagine how eye-catching and disgusting those "bloody besoms" must look! And there's a certain spell-binding ritualism in seeing such blood-red wattles sweeping across the pavement before they enter what is essentially Hell (the description of Namirrha's palace has much in common with William Beckford's Palace of Subterranean Fire).

Those furry things stirring within the rib cages also give me the creeps! CAS knew better than to confirm whether they are rats, demons, or something wholly out of this world.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The dragon. I can't find many more words right
> now
> > for this marvelous monster. But the dragon is
> so
> > profound, that it is real.
>
>
> For something with only a sentence of description,
> I found the human-dragons quite mesmerizing as
> well. I can only imagine how eye-catching and
> disgusting those "bloody besoms" must look! And
> there's a certain spell-binding ritualism in
> seeing such blood-red wattles sweeping across the
> pavement before they enter what is essentially
> Hell (the description of Namirrha's palace has
> much in common with William Beckford's Palace of
> Subterranean Fire).
>
> Those furry things stirring within the rib cages
> also give me the creeps! CAS knew better than to
> confirm whether they are rats, demons, or
> something wholly out of this world.

I really liked the way the each repeated the invitation, the mummies, the snakes, and the furballs.

Hard to say "no", huh? ;^)

There was a TREMENDOUSLY cinematic quality to this sequence (oddly--don't laugh, now!) I found it ironically amusing.

Very much of the best of CAS is, to me, cinematic.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The dragon. I can't find many more words right
> now
> > for this marvelous monster. But the dragon is
> so
> > profound, that it is real.
>
>
> For something with only a sentence of description,
> I found the human-dragons quite mesmerizing as
> well. I can only imagine how eye-catching and
> disgusting those "bloody besoms" must look! And
> there's a certain spell-binding ritualism in
> seeing such blood-red wattles sweeping across the
> pavement before they enter what is essentially
> Hell (the description of Namirrha's palace has
> much in common with William Beckford's Palace of
> Subterranean Fire).
>
>

Actually I was referring to the traditional mythological dragon in general. It is mysteriously archetypal and touches most people in one way or another.

But yes, those enthralling half-dragons guarding the portals have always been a high point for me among many marvels in "The Dark Eidolon". Often have wished that one of the great stop motion animators in film would have sculpted and animated them onto the screen.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The dragon. I can't find many more words
> right
> > now
> > > for this marvelous monster. But the dragon is
> > so
> > > profound, that it is real.
> >
> >
> > For something with only a sentence of
> description,
> > I found the human-dragons quite mesmerizing as
> > well. I can only imagine how eye-catching and
> > disgusting those "bloody besoms" must look! And
> > there's a certain spell-binding ritualism in
> > seeing such blood-red wattles sweeping across
> the
> > pavement before they enter what is essentially
> > Hell (the description of Namirrha's palace has
> > much in common with William Beckford's Palace
> of
> > Subterranean Fire).
> >
> >
>
> Actually I was referring to the traditional
> mythological dragon in general. It is mysteriously
> archetypal and touches most people in one way or
> another.
>
> But yes, those enthralling half-dragons guarding
> the portals have always been a high point for me
> among many marvels in "The Dark Eidolon". Often
> have wished that one of the great stop motion
> animators in film would have sculpted and animated
> them onto the screen.

For some reason the whole banquet sequence shares many of the same evocative elements of the table scene in Tod Browning's "Freaks".

It appears to be a sort of distorted notion of hospitality offered in what seems to be a genuine spirit of deference and honor, but those displaying it draw upon vastly different norms.

Gooble, gobble, indeed...

Of course, Namirrah knows better, and there is no character to parallel him in Freaks, so the analogy breaks down, but....

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For some reason the whole banquet sequence shares
> many of the same evocative elements of the table
> scene in Tod Browning's "Freaks".
>
> It appears to be a sort of distorted notion of
> hospitality offered in what seems to be a genuine
> spirit of deference and honor, but those
> displaying it draw upon vastly different norms.
>
> Gooble, gobble, indeed...
>
> Of course, Namirrah knows better, and there is no
> character to parallel him in Freaks, so the
> analogy breaks down, but....


CAS seemed to sympathize with outsiders. Namirrha was one all his life, and although he never made a human duck out of Zotulla, he did give Zotulla a taste of his own medicine (and then some!), albeit at the cost of his soul and sanity. I'm not sure what CAS would have thought of Freaks, but he gave an unusual degree of dignity and psychological understanding to his monsters, sorcerers, and outcasts, even the vilest of them. I recall his story "The Ghoul", in which the eponymous monster seemed civilized by its own standards, and wasn't judged for being a ghoul, though cruel to the human protagonist ("I've been fasting for a while now, so give me some human flesh and I promise to leave your wife's grave alone"). And in his story "Sadastor" we see a demon cheering up a man-eating lamia by telling her the tragic tale of how he tried to save a man-eating siren so she could kill more men another day.

But ah, I drift from the Freaks analogy! These scenes of deathly processions and demons of death have a similar fervor as the table scene. One of us, one of the dead! Gooble gobble!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 27 Jun 21 | 06:56PM by Hespire.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually I was referring to the traditional
> mythological dragon in general. It is mysteriously
> archetypal and touches most people in one way or
> another.


Oh now I see. Well, this is a monster appreciation thread, so why not dragons? It astounds me how far this archetype has traveled. There are stories of dragon-like creatures even where reptiles are rare, such as Greenland or Iceland. Serpents can seem scary to humans, but they're also revered across different cultures, and they must have a universally pleasing form for them to appear so often in ancient and medieval art. I recall Borges praising dragons as the most elegant or profound of all mythic beings, and now I want to find that passage again...


> But yes, those enthralling half-dragons guarding
> the portals have always been a high point for me
> among many marvels in "The Dark Eidolon". Often
> have wished that one of the great stop motion
> animators in film would have sculpted and animated
> them onto the screen.


I can't think of anyone better than Ray Harryhausen. His films are a little too boisterous and traditionally positive to make room for CAS, but his special effects are perfect for their fabulous style.

Hespire Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > Often
> > have wished that one of the great stop motion
> > animators in film would have sculpted and
> > animated them onto the screen.
>
>
> I can't think of anyone better than Ray
> Harryhausen. His films are a little too boisterous
> and traditionally positive to make room for CAS,
> but his special effects are perfect for their
> fabulous style.

It’s more stop than motion, but I feel that I must mention this masterpiece again here:

Death of Malygris sculpture

And speaking of animation, as the Japanese have a very rich monster tradition (google the word ‘yokai’ to get an impression), my choice of animators for CAS’s monsters would be the Japanese animation studio Madhouse, especially in the light of their excellent horror/fantasy work on Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27 Jun 21 | 07:46PM by Avoosl Wuthoqquan.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Coming to the open portals of Namirrha's house,
> the emperor saw that they were guarded by great
> crimson-wattled things, half dragon, half man, who
> bowed before him, sweeping their wattles like
> bloody besoms on the flags of dark onyx. And the
> emperor passed with Obexah between the louting
> monsters, ...

I don't know about you, but I don't imagine those "wattles" as bleeding, but more like the blood-filled appendages cresting the head and hanging from the chin of a rooster.

> I can't think of anyone better than Ray
> Harryhausen. His films are a little too boisterous
> and traditionally positive to make room for CAS,
> but his special effects are perfect for their
> fabulous style.

I don't think Harryhausen would have accepted it. He was the Master of traditional classic fantasy, his monsters are perfectly achieved in design and in animated life. (But he could be very bizarre too. His Cyclops completely surprised and unhinged me; for it is very provocative, almost blasphemous, in its affronting appearance and movements.)

I think Phil Tippett would have been the perfect man for the job.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Coming to the open portals of Namirrha's house,
> the emperor saw that they were guarded by great
> crimson-wattled things, half dragon, half man, ...

In rough outline I see something similar to the upright squat pink dragon thing on this book cover, although more evolved in details.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> In rough outline I see something similar to the
> upright squat pink dragon thing on this book
> cover, although more evolved in details.

And larger in size ...

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > In rough outline I see something similar to the
> > upright squat pink dragon thing on this book
> > cover, although more evolved in details.
>
> And larger in size ...

"Good evening, sir. Step right this way, your table awaits.

"My name is Jared. I'll be your wait person this evening..."

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Good evening, sir. Step right this way, your
> table awaits.
>
> "My name is Jared. I'll be your wait person this
> evening..."

:) Yes. And sweeping both wattles and paws along the ground, from one side to the next, pointing the way with its whole frame. Some imagination Clark Ashton Smith had, huh?! Amazing.

...and yet, and yet...

In the midst of this waking nightmare, and apparently in spite of it, Obexah, Zotulla's main squeeze, sees Namirrah for the first time and wonders what he's like in bed.

Friends, only CAS...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...and yet, and yet...
>
> In the midst of this waking nightmare, and
> apparently in spite of it, Obexah, Zotulla's main
> squeeze, sees Namirrah for the first time and
> wonders what he's like in bed.
>
> Friends, only CAS...


Ha, even Zothique women want bad boys! And a bad boy in Zothique is no less than a murderous necromancer serving an anti-god of evil.

By the way, I remembered an interesting monster from CAS' "Abominations of Yondo." It reminds me of Namirrha's parade of kingly corpses and their inhuman occupants. Must have been the seed of the idea.

Quote:

But on its heels ere the sunset faded, there came a second apparition, striding with incredible strides and halting when it loomed almost upon me in the red twilight - the monstrous mummy of some ancient king still crowned with untarnished gold but turning to my gaze a visage that more than time or the worm had wasted. Broken swathings flapped about the skeleton legs, and above the crown that was set with sapphires and orange rubies, a black something swayed and nodded horribly; but, for an instant, I did not dream what it was. Then, in its middle, two oblique and scarlet eyes opened and glowed like hellish coals, and two ophidian fangs glittered in an ape-like mouth. A squat, furless, shapeless head on a neck of disproportionate extent leaned unspeakably down and whispered in the mummy 's ear. Then, with one stride, the titanic lich took half the distance between us, and from out the folds of the tattered sere-cloth a gaunt arm arose, and fleshless, taloned fingers laden with glowering gems, reached out and fumbled for my throat . . .

Makes you wonder how much control those rodent monsters have on the mummies...

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> > Coming to the open portals of Namirrha's house,
>
> > the emperor saw that they were guarded by great
>
> > crimson-wattled things, half dragon, half man,
> ...
>
> In rough outline I see something similar to the
> upright squat pink dragon thing on this book
> cover, although more evolved in details.


I always imagined something very similar to that. But reptilian green, and just slightly more avian in shape, likely inspired by the wattle description.

On the subject of animation, addressing both Knygatin and Avoosl (a gathering of Hyperboreans I see!), I figure Harryhausen wouldn't have the stomach for CAS. His work is generally more kind, clean, and positive, but I think the Harryhausen behind that chilling scene with Medusa might work. I'll have to check both of your animation suggestions. Certainly I think Japanese studios would eat up CAS' work, and I mentioned a while ago that CAS' monsters would fit right at home in that country. Can't think of any culture with a weirder, wider variety of creatures!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Jun 21 | 11:43AM by Hespire.

A heavenly body, like the sun, can also be a monster.

"On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime, but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of blood." ...

"Noon, with its sun of candent copper in a blackish-blue zenith, found them far amid the rusty sands and iron-toothed ridges ..."

I heard on the news that California and Oregon is now moving in direction towards the scorching age of Zothique.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A heavenly body, like the sun, can also be a
> monster.
>
> "On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun
> no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime,
> but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of
> blood." ...
>
> "Noon, with its sun of candent copper in a
> blackish-blue zenith, found them far amid the
> rusty sands and iron-toothed ridges ..."
>
> I heard on the news that California and Oregon is
> now moving in direction towards the scorching age
> of Zothique.

It was hellish. I can assure you.

Average summer temps are about 80 in PDX, and so few older houses have A/C.

The external sensor of our car registered 120 as we drove to an A/C'ed restaurant for dinner yesterday evening. Even driving the Mohave desert in CA, many times, I'd never felt anything like it because it was 86 at night the night before.

But, oh, well!...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A heavenly body, like the sun, can also be a
> monster.
>
> "On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the sun
> no longer shone with the whiteness of its prime,
> but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of
> blood." ...
>
> "Noon, with its sun of candent copper in a
> blackish-blue zenith, found them far amid the
> rusty sands and iron-toothed ridges ..."


"the day was near to its close, and the sun, which had fallen from sight behind the imperial palace, was barring the vast heavens with bloody rays."

It doesn't get more monstrous than that. Only in Zothique...


> I heard on the news that California and Oregon is
> now moving in direction towards the scorching age
> of Zothique.


There have been several scorching, unbearably sweaty days here in CA, but I'm sure these are only mild compared to the days to come. It's a common symbol for winter and ice to represent death or evil, but with this merciless sun I'd take the far north any day. Might explain my special interest in the Inuit and northern Europe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29 Jun 21 | 11:31PM by Hespire.

120 degrees ... Wooo ... I recall there was a movie, although I have not seen it, called The Incredible Melting Man.

But seriously, it sounds like a really bad situation. I remember the fires last summer.


About heavenly bodies as monsters, Fritz Leiber wrote a book called The Wanderer, about a planet passing into our solar system and causing great havoc on Earth by its gravitation. I have not read it yet, it is pretty far down in my to-read-pile.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A heavenly body, like the sun, can also be a
> > monster.
> >
> > "On Zothique, the last continent on Earth, the
> sun
> > no longer shone with the whiteness of its
> prime,
> > but was dim and tarnished as if with a vapor of
> > blood." ...
> >
> > "Noon, with its sun of candent copper in a
> > blackish-blue zenith, found them far amid the
> > rusty sands and iron-toothed ridges ..."
>
>
> "the day was near to its close, and the sun, which
> had fallen from sight behind the imperial palace,
> was barring the vast heavens with bloody rays."
>
> It doesn't get more monstrous than that. Only in
> Zothique...
>
>
> > I heard on the news that California and Oregon
> is
> > now moving in direction towards the scorching
> age
> > of Zothique.

It's paradoxical, CAS's vision of diurnal conditions in Zothique.

It would seem that with a sun greatly reduced in intensity, it would be cooler rather than hotter. Drier I can accept, but warmer?

Too, much of the action in some of the stories would be extremely difficult unless in some kind of full light, or at least aided by torches.

So it's a kind of colorful non-sequitur, to me. I simply ignore it and see Zothique as fully lit. I lack the imagination to construct a relatively concrete image of Fulbra, the king of devastated Yoros, on his sea voyage to Cyntrom, in The Isle of the Torturers. To me, all this happens in full, conventional sunlight. I see it in bright sunlight, a breezey day, full of both regret and guarded optimism, not in a sort of murky blue-black, with a reddish-copperish sun, can't see the horizon, nor the waves beyond a few yards.

"Heresy!"

:^)

>
>
> There have been several scorching, unbearably
> sweaty days here in CA, but I'm sure these are
> only mild compared to the days to come. It's a
> common symbol for winter and ice to represent
> death or evil, but with this merciless sun I'd
> take the far north any day. Might explain my
> special interest in the Inuit and northern Europe.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30 Jun 21 | 10:01AM by Sawfish.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's paradoxical, CAS's vision of diurnal
> conditions in Zothique.
>
> It would seem that with a sun greatly reduced in
> intensity, it would be cooler rather than hotter.
> Drier I can accept, but warmer?
>
> Too, much of the action in some of the stories
> would be extremely difficult unless in some kind
> of full light, or at least aided by torches.
>
> So it's a kind of colorful non-sequitur, to me. I
> simply ignore it and see Zothique as fully lit. I
> lack the imagination to construct a relatively
> concrete image of Fulbra, the king of devastated
> Yoros, on his sea voyage to Cyntrom, in The Isle
> of the Torturers. To me, all this happens in full,
> conventional sunlight. I see it in bright
> sunlight, a breezey day, full of both regret and
> guarded optimism, not in a sort of murky
> blue-black, with a reddish-copperish sun, can't
> see the horizon, nor the waves beyond a few
> yards.
>

Look at the size of the sun in the wonderful Necronomicon Press edition of Zothique. (I don't own the Ballantine edition, only this.)

In their last phase, stars (i.e. suns) often swell up, before they sputter and go out. So on account of their size I think they may still shed heat, even if their light is a dim glowing red. But I would need to return to my astronomy books, to reaffirm my memory on that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30 Jun 21 | 10:56AM by Knygatin.

Astronomy is one thing, but the history of astronomy warrants some research as well. I'm not sure if knowledge of supernovae was widespread in the '30s, or if CAS was inclined to read about such things, but Zothique seems to follow a similar thread as W. H. Hodgson's The Night Land, in that stars dwindle and fade rather than swell and explode. I wonder how much of astronomy CAS had read, and how much of it aligns with recent knowledge.

I have a similar issue as Sawfish. I can't help but imagine Zothique as well-lit, with occasional visions of a red evening sky for the more ominous scenes. When I really focus I can form an impression of the black-blue heavens and the small white sun over the sails of King Euvoran, but when I stop trying my mind naturally snaps back to azure heavens and a normal-sized wistful sun. It highlights the bold recklessness of the king, and the deadly darkness of the nocturnal scenes. Next time I read something of Zothique, I'll try to focus on CAS' impression of the sky, and see how much it changes the story for me.

Regarding monstrous heavenly bodies, I recall a story by Ramsey Campbell mentioning something like a living malevolent planet, moving through ether space. I can't say much more, because Campbell's Cthulhu Mythos stories were quite forgettable, but it sounds like good material at least.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Astronomy is one thing, but the history of
> astronomy warrants some research as well. I'm not
> sure if knowledge of supernovae was widespread in
> the '30s, or if CAS was inclined to read about
> such things, but Zothique seems to follow a
> similar thread as W. H. Hodgson's The Night Land,
> in that stars dwindle and fade rather than swell
> and explode. I wonder how much of astronomy CAS
> had read, and how much of it aligns with recent
> knowledge.
>

CAS read "all" the books in his local library (according to Dr. Farmer). I'm confident he had at least some basic astronomy knowledge, from which he soared out into space on his integrated wide wisdom.

Anyway, I think the accepted theory has been for quite long that, depending on size and temperature, a star in its final phase after swelling either explodes into a supernova, or else gradually goes out, shrink and dwindle into a dwarf (and some quickly collapse upon themselves into a black hole). But whatever, from my standpoint mere speculation, crumbs from an advanced field of science. More simply, I imagine Zothique as an ongoing sunset (even when a candent copper disc, burning at zenith), everything always having the saturated dark colors that only sunsets bring.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, I think the accepted theory has been for
> quite long that, depending on size and
> temperature, a star in its final phase after
> swelling either explodes into a supernova, or else
> gradually goes out, shrink and dwindle into a
> dwarf (and some quickly collapse upon themselves
> into a black hole). But whatever, from my
> standpoint mere speculation, crumbs from an
> advanced field of science. More simply, I imagine
> Zothique as an ongoing sunset (even when a candent
> copper disc, burning at zenith), everything always
> having the saturated dark colors that only sunsets
> bring.


This sounds more logical and consistently easy to imagine than a black-sapphire sky with a copper or red or white sun (he mentioned white sunlight in one story, without describing the sun itself, further confounding my imagination!). And to me an eternal evening sounds more profound as a backdrop for all the sorceries going on. If the sky was almost always black or black-sapphire, it would make the division between night and day (which is mentioned often throughout these stories) a little redundant, along with his mentions of dusk and dawn. And there are some stories which don't comment on the color of the sun or the sky, so the average, uninitiated reader would have to imagine either present conditions or a suitably dramatic twilight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30 Jun 21 | 08:10PM by Hespire.

I also think there is a particular celestial phenomena to take into account, that when the Sun is strong enough (like today), and there is lots of moisture in the atmosphere, the whole sky is lit up and becomes light blue (the way we know daylight).
The moon gives a limited glow at night that we can see by, but the sky is still black and we see the stars.
Similarly one can conceive that a fading sun, like of "candent copper in a blackish-blue zenith", would give a daylight with luminosity comparable to our sunsets, but without lighting up the sky much (especially so, and further enhanced, when the Earth has become much drier than today, and there is less moisture in the atmosphere to light up.) Therefore ..., no bright blue skies on Zothique. One might think that something similar would occur today in deserts along the equator (perhaps it really does?! with a blackish-blue zenith at mid-day?!), but on account of our Sun being brighter, and atmosphere having more moisture at high altitudes, even above deserts, I don't think so. Zothique is in a stage of late evolution and celestial phenomena we have not exactly experienced yet(except perhaps in the earliest stages of Earth, before the seas were formed).

Sawfish's perspective on Zothique is interesting too, that it would be dry, but not warmer because of the fading Sun. There are many considerations to take into effective account. Size of Sun, absolute heat of Sun, lack of a protective atmosphere against the Sun's rays, ... Then, if the heat was high, the seas would evaporate, and consequently there would be moist atmosphere and bright blue skies again?!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also think there is a particular celestial
> phenomena to take into account, that when the Sun
> is strong enough (like today), and there is lots
> of moisture in the atmosphere, the whole sky is
> lit up and becomes light blue (the way we know
> daylight).
> The moon gives a limited glow at night that we can
> see by, but the sky is still black and we see the
> stars.
> Similarly one can conceive that a fading sun, like
> of "candent copper in a blackish-blue zenith",
> would give a daylight with luminosity comparable
> to our sunsets, but without lighting up the sky
> much (especially so, and further enhanced, when
> the Earth has become much drier than today, and
> there is less moisture in the atmosphere to light
> up.) Therefore ..., no bright blue skies on
> Zothique. One might think that something similar
> would occur today in deserts along the equator
> (perhaps it really does?! with a blackish-blue
> zenith at mid-day?!), but on account of our Sun
> being brighter, and atmosphere having more
> moisture at high altitudes, even above deserts, I
> don't think so. Zothique is in a stage of late
> evolution and celestial phenomena we have not
> exactly experienced yet(except perhaps in the
> earliest stages of Earth, before the seas were
> formed).
>
> Sawfish's perspective on Zothique is interesting
> too, that it would be dry, but not warmer because
> of the fading Sun. There are many considerations
> to take into effective account. Size of Sun,
> absolute heat of Sun, lack of a protective
> atmosphere against the Sun's rays, ... Then, if
> the heat was high, the seas would evaporate, and
> consequently there would be moist atmosphere and
> bright blue skies again?!

Why don't we just admit that Zothique is on Mars? ;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...and yet, and yet...
>
> In the midst of this waking nightmare, and
> apparently in spite of it, Obexah, Zotulla's main
> squeeze, sees Namirrah for the first time and
> wonders what he's like in bed.
>
> Friends, only CAS...


CAS and the Washington Post.

[www.washingtonpost.com]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...and yet, and yet...
> >
> > In the midst of this waking nightmare, and
> > apparently in spite of it, Obexah, Zotulla's
> main
> > squeeze, sees Namirrah for the first time and
> > wonders what he's like in bed.
> >
> > Friends, only CAS...
>
>
> CAS and the Washington Post.
>
> [www.washingtonpost.com]
> pride-month-kink-consent/


What is the disease that afflicts us at this point in time? A sort of Mad Cow disease...? It's like some foul spirochete is gnawing away at any last shred of human dignity--any notion of self-restraint in favor of the collective betterment.

How will all this end up? A happy, squirming mass of uninhibited and non-judgmental humanity? Is that what these people think? An Age of Aquarius for narcissists?

And if so, consider the sobering fact that they're probably voters...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why don't we just admit that Zothique is on Mars?
> ;^)


The scientific prediction among astronomers is that in the far future (we are talking billions of years hence, X times 1000,000,000 years. So we have lots of time to do whatever we want. Likely, other species will have replaced humans and other animals on Earth by that time. If we play our cards well, we may still be on the train.), the swelling of the Sun will consume and burn up the Earth, and at the same time make Mars temperature suitable for living. Even further along into the future, all the planets in the Solar system will have become consumed.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The scientific prediction among astronomers is
> that in the far future (we are talking billions of
> years hence, X times 1000,000,000 years. So we
> have lots of time to do whatever we want. Likely,
> other species will have replaced humans and other
> animals on Earth by that time. If we play our
> cards well, we may still be on the train.), the
> swelling of the Sun will consume and burn up the
> Earth, and at the same time make Mars temperature
> suitable for living. Even further along into the
> future, all the planets in the Solar system will
> have become consumed.


Sounds like you've had more than just a few crumbs of this advanced science! It's an intuitive idea that a larger sun would mean a potentially more life-sustaining Mars. If this science was commonly known back then, then CAS' Martian Aihais (and any human colonists) would have something to look forward to, though this wouldn't be the abysmal cosmic horror he preferred.


Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why don't we just admit that Zothique is on Mars?
> ;^)


CAS' Martian stories are essentially Zothique on Mars.
;^)

I've just finished reading "The Dweller in the Gulf", the very story which made me want to create this thread. Perhaps others will disagree, but I was wrong for suggesting it wasn't so stellar. It strikes me as one of CAS' most frightening, oppressive, nightmarish, and intense stories ever, and it gave me countless chills throughout the entire second half! It has almost no plot, being more of an atmospheric exploration of a subterranean realm and its alien inhabitants. It shares a lot in common with HPL, but with the poetry, movement, and visceral and spiritual sensations of CAS' better stories. This is not one of his sci-fi stinkers! I can hear those wet, squishy, alien footfalls resounding in the darkness ahead of me, above me!

And that monster. Its design is so gracefully alien and disturbing that I wonder if CAS might have seen it in an actual vision of an actual other world!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2 Jul 21 | 12:34AM by Hespire.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The scientific prediction among astronomers is
> > that in the far future (we are talking billions of
> > years hence, X times 1000,000,000 years. So we
> > have lots of time to do whatever we want. Likely,
> > other species will have replaced humans and other
> > animals on Earth by that time. If we play our
> > cards well, we may still be on the train.), the
> > swelling of the Sun will consume and burn up the
> > Earth, and at the same time make Mars temperature
> > suitable for living. Even further along into the
> > future, all the planets in the Solar system will
> > have become consumed.
>
>
> Sounds like you've had more than just a few crumbs
> of this advanced science!


Well, I have a small bunch of books, and a medium sized 4" refractor telescope for observations. But it was a while ago I actively pursued it. ;)

More monsters!

Having missed the train in my childhood, I recently acquired an interest in flesh-eating, or rather, insect-eating plants! The most famous of these, the Venus flytrap, should be an ingredient of every boy's room.
I bought one, and was lucky to witness on one of the first days, the intolerable suspense of how a fly spontaneously walked over it, up to a trap, feeling it with its front legs, backed away, continued to another, walked right into it, and - snap! - was caught in its jaws. I have read about this plant before, and watched it on TV. But seeing it in real life, moving, and cruelly trapping that poor fly, was creepy and dizzying! Unreal, supernatural. I couldn't help but think, is this really a plant?, is it not an animal? Is it conscious?! Quite beautiful it is in the pot too, with all its jaws.

Another species of insect-eating plant is the bizarre Sarracenia purpurea. Here above view. And another variant. How grotesque! A true monster! Looks like a group of obese, drugged or undead individuals, with rudimentary arms, laying back with their mouths open, waiting for whatever is coming to them.

Yet another species is called Darlingtonia californica or cobra lily. It lures insects with its cloven tongue, which leads up to the mouth on the underside of its head. It is actually unique to Northern California and Oregon. I think CAS may well have seen this plant, and used it as inspiration for his flower-women, "leaning toward him with fantastic invitation"!!

Darlingtonia californica growing by a stream at the northern range of the Sierra Nevada. Similar surroundings that CAS would hike along.

My married daughter and her husband use the fly trap and purpurea for insect control in the greenhouse they co-own. I don't know how effective the plants are in terms of getting mosquitoes etc., but I applaud the intention; and the plants are intriguing... Thanks, Knygatin! Btw my wife gave me a flytrap just a few days ago.

>
>
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
It has almost no plot, being
> more of an atmospheric exploration of a
> subterranean realm and its alien inhabitants.


"The Abominations of Yondo" is another example. No plot, just morbid descriptions of the monstrosities and unnatural flora the poor exile finds in the strange land.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 3 Jul 21 | 01:42PM by Minicthulhu.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> >
> It has almost no plot, being
> > more of an atmospheric exploration of a
> > subterranean realm and its alien inhabitants.
>
>

This is what I take to be a "prose poem". I've never been real sure what a prose poem is, bit maybe this is it.
> "The Abominations of Yondo" is another example. No
> plot, just morbid descriptions of the
> monstrosities and unnatural flora the poor exile
> finds in the strange land.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Abominations of Yondo" is another example. No
> plot, just morbid descriptions of the
> monstrosities and unnatural flora the poor exile
> finds in the strange land.


And much like "Dweller", "Yondo" was fine without any sort of plot! It's also fantastic for this thread's purpose, with its parade of abominations. I still get shivers from that pursuing shadow...

I don't know what a prose poem is exactly, either, but I do know that "Yondo", "Dweller", "Sadastor", and others have many descriptive segments that read like complete poems in themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 3 Jul 21 | 03:43PM by Hespire.

Keeping in mind HPL's preference for atmosphere and observation rather than plot or character development, CAS' Martian stories might be his most Lovecraftian, and that's an adjective I don't use lightly. "The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis" has the scientifically-fascinated tone, dramatic sense of revelation, and philosophical stance of a classic HPL story, along with the traditional premise of a slow, ​realistic expedition to a dark place that fills the protagonist with dread and disgust, yet also fatal obsession. "The Dweller in the Gulf" follows its predecessor's Lovecraftian lead, but CAS further distinguishes himself by removing the scientific framework and increasing the ambivalence. The characters recognize the hopelessness and otherworldly horror of their situation, yet their minds begin melding with the alien surroundings the deeper they go in the dark, until eventually they feel a cosmic oneness with the vastness, the darkness, the devourer, and the disturbing ecstasy of the blind Martian cultists. It goes a bit beyond the battle for sanity associated with Lovecraftian fiction, as it immerses the characters so completely in alien sensations, without giving them a chance to resist it, and in the end they're only left with grim acceptance of the cosmic void they sought to escape. "Vulthoom" isn't exactly a Lovecraftian story, but the eponymous entity is like the Martian equivalent of Cthulhu, and the ending acknowledges the last laugh of a creature for whom time and morality are nearly meaningless.

These are some of my most favorite works of CAS, and they're filled with memorable monsters. Just check out this description of one of Vulthoom's servants!

Quote:

They rose from the rocky bottom to the height of giraffes, with shortish legs that were vaguely similar to those of Chinese dragons, and elongated spiral necks like the middle coils of great anacondas. Their heads were triple-faced, and they might have been the trimurti of some infernal world. It seemed that each face was eyeless, with tongue-shapen flames issuing voluminously from deep orbits beneath the slanted brows. Flames also poured in a ceaseless vomit from the gaping gargoyle mouths. From the head of each monster a triple comb of vermilion flared aloft in sharp serrations, glowing terribly; and both of them were bearded with crimson scrolls. Their necks and arching spines were fringed with sword-long blades that diminished into rows of daggers on the tapering tails; and their whole bodies, as well as this fearsome armament, appeared to burn as if they had just issued from a fiery furnace.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 3 Jul 21 | 03:58PM by Hespire.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keeping in mind HPL's preference for atmosphere
> and observation rather than plot or character
> development, CAS' Martian stories might be his
> most Lovecraftian, and that's an adjective I don't
> use lightly. "The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis" has the
> scientifically-fascinated tone, dramatic sense of
> revelation, and philosophical stance of a classic
> HPL story, along with the traditional premise of a
> slow, ​realistic expedition to a dark place that
> fills the protagonist with dread and disgust, yet
> also fatal obsession.

Yoh-Vombis is terrific!

And yes, very much like a Lovecraft "voyage-of-discovery-gone-wrong" narrative, like Mountains of Madness.

Yoh-Vombis is very vivid in my memory: the shackled Martian at the walled-up part of the cavern, the carvings of the "scarf dance", the wanderings of the narrator's possessed companions--all very distinct.


> "The Dweller in the Gulf"
> follows its predecessor's Lovecraftian lead, but
> CAS further distinguishes himself by removing the
> scientific framework and increasing the
> ambivalence. The characters recognize the
> hopelessness and otherworldly horror of their
> situation, yet their minds begin melding with the
> alien surroundings the deeper they go in the dark,
> until eventually they feel a cosmic oneness with
> the vastness, the darkness, the devourer, and the
> disturbing ecstasy of the blind Martian cultists.
> It goes a bit beyond the battle for sanity
> associated with Lovecraftian fiction, as it
> immerses the characters so completely in alien
> sensations, without giving them a chance to resist
> it, and in the end they're only left with grim
> acceptance of the cosmic void they sought to
> escape. "Vulthoom" isn't exactly a Lovecraftian
> story, but the eponymous entity is like the
> Martian equivalent of Cthulhu, and the ending
> acknowledges the last laugh of a creature for whom
> time and morality are nearly meaningless.
>
> These are some of my most favorite works of CAS,
> and they're filled with memorable monsters. Just
> check out this description of one of Vulthoom's
> servants!
>
> They rose from the rocky bottom to the height of
> giraffes, with shortish legs that were vaguely
> similar to those of Chinese dragons, and elongated
> spiral necks like the middle coils of great
> anacondas. Their heads were triple-faced, and they
> might have been the trimurti of some infernal
> world. It seemed that each face was eyeless, with
> tongue-shapen flames issuing voluminously from
> deep orbits beneath the slanted brows. Flames also
> poured in a ceaseless vomit from the gaping
> gargoyle mouths. From the head of each monster a
> triple comb of vermilion flared aloft in sharp
> serrations, glowing terribly; and both of them
> were bearded with crimson scrolls. Their necks and
> arching spines were fringed with sword-long blades
> that diminished into rows of daggers on the
> tapering tails; and their whole bodies, as well as
> this fearsome armament, appeared to burn as if
> they had just issued from a fiery furnace.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My married daughter and her husband use the fly
> trap and purpurea for insect control in the
> greenhouse they co-own. I don't know how
> effective the plants are in terms of getting
> mosquitoes etc., but I applaud the intention; and
> the plants are intriguing... Thanks, Knygatin!
> Btw my wife gave me a flytrap just a few days ago.

My Sarracenia is voracious. I see victims, especially those small annoying fruit flies, falling down into its mouths all the time.

The Venus flytrap mostly eat spiders and other insects, but indoor flies don't seem so very keen on visiting it. It is recommended that one feeds it; but it doesn't like dead food. I taped together a square frame from sticks, covered it with clear plastic wrap, and place this over the pot at night; capture some flies and let loose inside. In the morning I visit "the scene of the crime". One meal satisfies for a long time. I have three separate plants in my pot, and one of them has not captured anything yet, so I am a little worried for it.

Insect-eating plants don't like tap water. They need rain water, or water taken from some clean mossy pond. And they don't like earthenware crocks because of possible depositions leaking into their mossy soil. They love to be placed outside in the summer time.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know how effective the plants are in terms of getting
> mosquitoes ...

I don't know about mosquitoes. They are bloodsuckers, and likely not attracted to the scented nectar of these plants.


Darlingtonia Californica was discovered in 1841 by botanist J. D. Brackenridge south of Mt. Shasta.

He had just picked up these plants when he bumped into a bunch of Indians.
When he fled from there he noticed that a butterfly followed the plants he carried. That's how attractive this plant is to its prey.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 4 Jul 21 | 06:48AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And they don't like earthenware crocks because of possible depositions leaking into their mossy soil.
>

I.e. terracotta pots. Unless they are sealed. I like earthenware pots, so I put a plastic pot inside it.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My married daughter and her husband use the fly
> > trap and purpurea for insect control in the
> > greenhouse they co-own. I don't know how
> > effective the plants are in terms of getting
> > mosquitoes etc., but I applaud the intention;
> and
> > the plants are intriguing... Thanks, Knygatin!
> > Btw my wife gave me a flytrap just a few days
> ago.
>
> My Sarracenia is voracious. I see victims,
> especially those small annoying fruit flies,
> falling down into its mouths all the time.
>
> The Venus flytrap mostly eat spiders and other
> insects, but indoor flies don't seem so very keen
> on visiting it. It is recommended that one feeds
> it; but it doesn't like dead food. I taped
> together a square frame from sticks, covered it
> with clear plastic wrap, and place this over the
> pot at night; capture some flies and let loose
> inside. In the morning I visit "the scene of the
> crime". One meal satisfies for a long time. I have
> three separate plants in my pot, and one of them
> has not captured anything yet, so I am a little
> worried for it.
>
> Insect-eating plants don't like tap water. They
> need rain water, or water taken from some clean
> mossy pond. And they don't like earthenware crocks
> because of possible depositions leaking into their
> mossy soil. They love to be placed outside in the
> summer time.

K, tell us about your exotic cats...

;^)

Just kiddin'...I was struck by how finicky the carnivorous plants are that I immediately thought: I wonder how much harder it would be to keep an ocelot.

...and voila!!! :^)

...just the caffeine kicking in...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> K, tell us about your exotic cats...
>
> ;^)
>
> Just kiddin'...I was struck by how finicky the
> carnivorous plants are that I immediately thought:
> I wonder how much harder it would be to keep an
> ocelot.
>

Ha ha! But I am afraid I am only able to handle one hobby at a time. I tend to get obsessed for a limited time, and then move on to something new. I grew up with dogs, since a baby, but I wouldn't get a dog (or a cat) of my own. Too demanding and time-consuming. I have often fancied getting a Tokay gecko lizard (which I would name Malygris), build an exotic terrarium for it, and feed it with fat juicy crickets. A nice cold friend, that isn't emotionally needy or nagging. But even that entails too much responsibility, and being tied up. And, I can't bear it when animals die.

What about you, ... you don't like to collect books, ... But, don't you have any nerdy hobbies at all?

Or do you exclusively like to drive around in a flashy sports car, wear spotless suits, and eat at fancy restaurants? :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 4 Jul 21 | 12:37PM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:

much snipped...

> >
> > Just kiddin'...I was struck by how finicky the
> > carnivorous plants are that I immediately
> thought:
> > I wonder how much harder it would be to keep an
> > ocelot.
> >
>
> Ha ha! But I am afraid I am only able to handle
> one hobby at a time. I tend to get obsessed for a
> limited time, and then move on to something new. I
> grew up with dogs, since a baby, but I wouldn't
> get a dog (or a cat) of my own. Too demanding and
> time-consuming. I have often fancied getting a
> Tokay gecko lizard (which I would name Malygris),
> build an exotic terrarium for it, and feed it with
> fat juicy crickets. A nice cold friend, that isn't
> emotionally needy or nagging. But even that
> entails too much responsibility, and being tied
> up. And, I can't bear it when animals die.
>
> What about you, ... you don't like to collect
> books, ... But, don't you have any nerdy hobbies
> at all?
>
> Or do you exclusively like to drive around in a
> flashy sports car, wear spotless suits, and eat at
> fancy restaurants? :)

Hah! Not a chance!

Hmmm...let's see...

I've never really had a hobby besides reading--and I never actually considered it to *be* a hobby, but when asked about hobbies, it seems like it fits the definition.

As you know by now, K, I read a lot of different stuff, whatever catches my interest for the moment.

I used to play tennis, and until I was about 52-53, that probably was a hobby. It was other sports before that, when I was young, but with tennis all you need is one other fool, so...

But even then I always liked reading better.

Talk about cheap thrills...that's exactly what it is for me. Excellent bang for the buck.

...and oh, yeah, I'm a notorious tightwad--always have been even as a kid.


I still go the the gym, but it's really an exercise in futility, and at this stage tends to underline one's realization of one's own mortality.

Sometimes I drink beer at the gym, after a futile session. Maybe that's a hobby. But it costs too much, really, so...

Happy Fourth!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good enough! I train at home, with a Bullworker, situps, and some general gymnastic movements and stretches, so as to not to become petrified in joints and muscles.


Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > K, tell us about your exotic cats...
>
> ;^)
>

I wonder what your visual impression here really was?? This reminds me of a Youtube clip I happened to see shortly after becoming interested in the plants.

(Inspired by A. Merritt, I have also started a small collection of orchids! Merritt had a big collection of exotic specimens in his greenhouse. Orchids are even more difficult to care for than insect-eating plants!)

Anyway, here is the Youtube clip. It made me greatly *doubt* my new flower hobby. But I asure you, that blond guy is NOT ME!

Knygatin Wrote:

> Insect-eating plants don't like tap water. They
> need rain water, or water taken from some clean
> mossy pond. And they don't like earthenware crocks
> because of possible depositions leaking into their
> mossy soil. They love to be placed outside in the
> summer time.


Yes, that's what I understood. Yesterday evening I placed a large metal mixing bowl outside to catch rain, and we did get a nice little storm, so I'm in good shape for rainwater for the flytrap at present. I will have to remember to place the little thing outside sometimes.

As for monsters... the one in Benson's "Negotium Perambulans" is interesting.

I learned last week that when Luther translated the Old Testament (Isaiah 34:14), he rendered the "lilith" as kobold, the mine-dwelling goblin.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I learned last week that when Luther translated
> the Old Testament (Isaiah 34:14), he rendered the
> "lilith" as kobold, the mine-dwelling goblin.


My knowledge of folklore is mostly focused on Northern Europe and the Inuit, so I have hardly any insight when it comes to Lilith, but wasn't she (or similar Mesopotamian demons) originally imagined as a hideous beast? Hardly a perfect representation of a kobold, but translating one ugly monster into another is less of a shock than translating a beautiful demoness or temptress into a gnarled little dwarf!

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually I was referring to the traditional
> > mythological dragon in general. It is mysteriously
> > archetypal and touches most people in one way or another.
>
>
> There are stories of dragon-like creatures even where reptiles are
> rare, such as Greenland or Iceland.


What is your source for this? On the concept ceremonial music album ESKIMO by The Residents there is a song that features a great Worm rising out of the sea. But other than that I have never heard of this mentioned before.

The Prose Edda, a medieval collection of Norse mythology, written in Iceland, contains a fascinating list of dragons. Here is my back translation of Marcel Otten’s Dutch translation of the Prose Edda (Amsterdam, 2011):

Quote:

Here are the names of serpents [dragons]: dragon, Fafnir, Mighty Rod, adder, Paletooth [Níðhöggr], tapeworm, serpent, In the Earth, In the Peat, Digging Wolf and Greyback, the Loop, Faller-asleep or the Previous One.

Wikipedia presents this passage in English (translation by Faulkes):

Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidhogg
These are names for serpents: dragon, Fafnir, Jormungand, adder, Nidhogg, snake, viper, Goin, Moin, Grafvitnir, Grabak, Ofnir, Svafnir, masked one.

Interesting. I have read the Poetic Edda only, but it was some time ago, and I don't remember the details. But Fafnir is in it.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Prose Edda, a medieval collection of Norse
> mythology, written in Iceland, contains a
> fascinating list of dragons. Here is my back
> translation of Marcel Otten’s Dutch translation
> of the Prose Edda (Amsterdam, 2011):
>
> Here are the names of serpents : dragon, Fafnir,
> Mighty Rod, adder, Paletooth , tapeworm, serpent,
> In the Earth, In the Peat, Digging Wolf and
> Greyback, the Loop, Faller-asleep or the Previous
> One.
>
> Wikipedia presents this passage in English
> (translation by Faulkes):
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]]These are
> names for serpents: dragon, Fafnir, Jormungand,
> adder, Nidhogg, snake, viper, Goin, Moin,
> Grafvitnir, Grabak, Ofnir, Svafnir, masked one.

This is significant in an odd way.

This is made up of all animate entities, actual or existing in myth, that share the outward form of being limbless and moving around in a snakelike fashion.

Now this implies that the mythical creature or this list, which appear to include dragons, were perhaps not thought of as possessing with wings or legs, since that mode of travel would preclude inclusion with the other wrigglers.

This sort of folk taxonomy reminds me of how my wife, of Japanese descent via Hawaii, tells me that the word "nezumi" covers both mice and rats without discrimination. This then is based on external observation of morphology and habits.

Something like using the same word to describe a German Shepherd and a wolf.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is your source for this? On the concept
> ceremonial music album ESKIMO by The Residents
> there is a song that features a great Worm rising
> out of the sea. But other than that I have never
> heard of this mentioned before.


Across the internet you'll find some rare details about a monster known as the Pal-Rai-Yûk, which I also read about in a couple books by E. W. Nelson, an ethnologist who traveled to Alaska. It isn't a traditional dragon or serpent, as it's described like a reptilian beast with many humps and legs and magical qualities (it can step on grass without bending it!), but I think it counts as "dragon-like." A brief search on google revealed a more traditional giant serpent monster from Inuit legend, but I have less info on that.

I remember that worm very well. Man-headed giant worms are a common antagonist in Inuit legends .Given the geographical location of Hyperborea I wonder if CAS knew about it when he was writing "The Coming of the White Worm."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jul 21 | 11:36AM by Hespire.

Sawfish Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
> Now this implies that the mythical creature or
> this list, which appear to include dragons, were
> perhaps not thought of as possessing with wings or
> legs, since that mode of travel would preclude
> inclusion with the other wrigglers.

Your observation gels with the fact that the English word ‘dragon’ comes to us through French and Latin from a Greek word (δράκων) meaning ‘serpent’. I’ve often wondered when and how the dragon gained its wings, so to speak.

I do know that winged dragons are sometimes referred to as wyverns. But a quick look at the dictionary teaches us that this word, again through French, comes from the Latin vipera, which means -- you’ve guessed it! -- ‘viper’. As far as I know, vipers do not have wings.

And then dragons are also sometimes referred to as ‘worms’, especially in poetic and archaic language. It’s all a bit of a muddle.

This particular list is complicated further (and made more interesting because of that, I think) by the often very opaque nature of metaphors in Old Germanic poetry. In fact, the book from which it was taken (the Prose Edda) is an instruction manual and reference book for poets!

Thanks, Avoosl. This is good information!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you Hespire. I will look for more about the monsters from Inuit legend.

Hespire Wrote:

> My knowledge of folklore is mostly focused on
> Northern Europe and the Inuit, so I have hardly
> any insight when it comes to Lilith, but wasn't
> she (or similar Mesopotamian demons) originally
> imagined as a hideous beast? Hardly a perfect
> representation of a kobold, but translating one
> ugly monster into another is less of a shock than
> translating a beautiful demoness or temptress into
> a gnarled little dwarf!


I've taught MacDonald's Lilith as a college text more than once, but not recently; but I did have a file (I might have thrown it out accidentally with a lot of other teaching materials) with information on the Lilith legend. My memory is that the word in Isaiah has been variously translated, with choices including lamia and "screech-owl," but don't quote me on this. I haven't verified the claim that Luther really did use "kobold." if he did, he was probably aiming for something that he figured would give his German folk a "dynamic equivalent." He would have been confident that the Bible is divinely inspired and not to be treated lightly, so if he did use "kobold" I don't suppose this was as whimsical as it sounds to us.

Maybe I will look around and see if I still have that Lilith stuff.