In 1975, I bought the Modern Library edition of A Dreamer's Tales and Other Stories (at the fondly remembered Blue Goose Books in Ashland, Oregon). A few days ago, the other ML Dunsany book, The Book of Wonder, came my way as a beat-up discard from a library.

I propose to read these books (till, perhaps, I run out of interest) and post comments here. I want to use these editions rather than my Ballantine Adult Fantasy paperbacks (with all their pleasant associations); this way perhaps my memories will get in the way to a lesser degree.

I have said some unfriendly things about Dunsany in recent years, such as that he was the "anti-Tolkien" in that he could emphasize the unreality of his imagined worlds, as contrasted with Tolkien's commitment to his "secondary world." I take Tolkien to be the Master of fantasy. I have tried to reread Dunsany and have found my interest petered out. Nevertheless, perhaps I should give Lord Dunsany yet another try.

This could be a place for other people to revisit Dunsany, or even, perhaps, to read him for the first time.

A Dreamer's Tales includes

"Poltarnees, Beholder of Ocean"
"Blagdaross"
"The Madness of Andelsprutz"
"Where the Tides Ebb and Flow"
"Bethmoora"
"Idle Days on the Yann"
"The Sword and the Idol"
"The Idle City"
"The Hashish Man"
"Poor Old Bill"
"The Beggars"
"Carcassonne"
"In Zaccarath"
"The Field"
"The Day of the Poll"
"The Unhappy Body"

The ML edition also includes

"The Sword of Welleran"
"The Fall of Babbulkund"
"The Kith of the Elf-Folk"
"The Highwayman"
"In the Twilight"
"The Ghosts"
"The Whirlpool"
"The Hurricane"
"The Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth"
"The Lord of Cities"
"The Doom of La Traviata"
"On the Dry Land"

The ML edition of The Book of Wonder includes

"Preface"
"The Bride of the Man-Horse"
"The Distressing Tale of Thangobrind the Jeweller, and of the Doom that Befell Him"
"The House of the Sphinx"
"The Probable Adventure of the Three Literary Men"
"The Injudicious Prayers of Pombo the Idolator"
"The Loot of Bombasharna"
"Miss Cubbidge and the Dragon of Romance"
"The Quest of the Queen's Tears"
"The Hoard of the Gibbelins"
"How Nuth Would Have Practised His Art upon the Gnoles"
"How One Came, as Was Foretold, to the City of Never"
"The Coronation of Mr. Thomas Shap"
"Chu-Bu and Sheemish"
"The Wonderful Window"
"Epilogue"

The ML edition also includes:

"Time and the Gods"
"The Coming of the Sea"
"A Legend of the Dawn"
"The Vengeance of Men"
"When the Gods Slept"
"The King That Was Not"
"The Cave of Kai"
"The Sorrow of Search"
"The Men of Yarnith"
"For the Honour of the Gods"
"Night and Morning"
"Usury"
"Mlideen"
"The Secret of the Gods"
"The South Wind"
"In the Land of Time"
"The Relenting of Sardinac"
"The Jest of the Gods"
"The Dreams of the Prophet"
"The Journey of the King"

Reading the stories in order might be a good idea, but I intend to start, at least, with "The Kith of the Elf-Folk," which I first in a paperback of Irish stories found in a school library before Lin Carter reprinted it. The very first Dunsany story I ever read was probably "The Hoard of the Gibbelins," in Robert Arthur's young adult anthology (Laurel Leaf Library), Monster Mix, one of the first books I ever bought new (though long gone).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17 Jul 21 | 11:40AM by Dale Nelson.

Dale, it will be interesting to read any in-progress comments you may have.

Dunsany causes a deep conflict in me like few other writers. On the level of individual passages and the establishment of anticipation of simple and pure wonder, few equal him. But so far as actually delivering the pure wonder, I think maybe he often comes up short. I've tried reading King of Elfland's Daughter and basically stalled out after about 25% thru.

Now for whatever reason, I tend to compare it to The Worm Ourboros, and I've read the latter at least twice, and expect to read it again. And that's the intangible difference to this point: the plot and characters of Ourboros are intrinsically interesting, while Elfland's are not. To me, at least.

It seems like there may have been a couple (at least) stories that I did like, but to me, his very best stuff is Jorkens. Arthur C. Clarke tried to emulate this sub-genre (club/bar-room tales) with Tales from the White Hart and Clarke suffers GREATLY (ouch!!!) by comparison.

BTW, even if Dunsay was a consistently appealing narrator, he was SOOOO prolific as to devalue his own body of work, simply by inflation.

--Sawfish

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#1 “The Kith of the Elf-Folk”

Dunsany was an outdoorsman, as shown to advantage in The Curse of the Wise Woman and here, a story beginning in East Anglian marshes. (Rider Haggard’s Norfolk is in East Anglia. I know of no evidence that the two men met, but chronology allows one to imagine them hunting birds together.) The brown, soulless Wild Things (the “kith of the Elf-folk”) fashion for one of their number a soul of gossamer, etc., and this Wild Thing accepts the soul and becomes a beautiful young woman. She loves the choir singing in the cathedral, etc. but does not understand human ways, and commits a solecism (telling a young clergyman that she loves him right in the church during a service). She has to leave the rural town, and gets a job in a mill city, where she is heard singing longingly of her old home. It seems an impresario is so impressed that she is taken to sing opera in London. She is not happy there; but notices a society lady who agrees to take from her the soul she, the former Wild Thing, does not want any more, and so she becomes again a Wild Thing, which hurries back to its native marshes. This seemed like a story to be illustrated by Rackham, very much of the time when he was a popular artist.

#2 “The Hurricane”

Hurricane and Earthquake agree to destroy the polluting city of man, but Earthquake fails to rouse itself at the appointed time and Hurricane weeps in frustration. This charmless brief piece, suggesting the more nihilistic edges of Green sensibility, is something I wouldn’t accept on its own merits for publication if I were a fanzine editor. If it were an unpublished Dunsany piece and it were offered to me, I'd print it because of the famous Dunsany name.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Jul 21 | 03:57PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #2 “The Hurricane”
>
> Hurricane and Earthquake agree to destroy the
> polluting city of man, but Earthquake fails to
> rouse itself at the appointed time and Hurricane
> weeps in frustration. This charmless brief piece,
> suggesting the more nihilistic edges of Green
> sensibility, is something I wouldn’t accept on
> its own merits for publication if I were a fanzine
> editor. If it were an unpublished Dunsany piece
> and it were offered to me, I'd print it because of
> the famous Dunsany name.

It sounds a bit silly and trivial.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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#3 “Poor Old Bill”

Dunsany may have been trying his hand at the Mark Twain type of macabre farce here, but without Twain’s convincing “local color” and firsthand knowledge of and affection for working men, in this case the sailors who inhabit the tavern where the narrator hears the tall tale of a sea-captain’s vengeful curse and the cannibalism that the men are driven to till just one man is left. Absent is the hilarity of Chapter Three of Life on the Mississippi, with the story of the river men and the haunted barrel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Jul 21 | 10:10PM by Dale Nelson.

#4 “The Doom of La Traviata”

A sentimental sketch, in which some angels can’t bring themselves to usher the beautiful young courtesan’s soul through hell’s gates and so they drop it on the roadside, where it becomes a pink flower with two lidless eyes that stare at the faces of passersby on the way to hell. God punishes the angels who failed to take the courtesan’s soul all the way to hell. I suppose most readers who profess enthusiasm for Dunsany haven’t read this piece or else have read it once.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #4 “The Doom of La Traviata”
>
> A sentimental sketch, in which some angels can’t
> bring themselves to usher the beautiful young
> courtesan’s soul through hell’s gates and so
> they drop it on the roadside, where it becomes a
> pink flower with two lidless eyes that stare at
> the faces of passersby on the way to hell. God
> punishes the angels who failed to take the
> courtesan’s soul all the way to hell. I suppose
> most readers who profess enthusiasm for Dunsany
> haven’t read this piece or else have read it
> once.

It may prove to be that Dunsany had too much time on his hands...

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Dale, this thread has gotten me to thinking about the work by Dunsany that I don't care for, and now reading your thoughts on some of his stories, considering the immense volume of his output, it almost seems like his mind (imagination) was *always* ON, and that without some sort of focus, he just blurted out his ideas. So the stuff i liked best was Jorkens, and this imposed a sort of framework, which he adhered to much to his benefit, in my opinion.

So, in a way, he seems very undisciplined.

Your thoughts on this diverging observation?

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've tried reading King
> of Elfland's Daughter and basically stalled out
> after about 25% thru.
>
> ... I tend to compare it to
> The Worm Ourboros, ...
> the plot and characters of Ourboros are
> intrinsically interesting, while Elfland's are
> not. To me, at least.
>
>

It is not character driven. Mostly dreamy romantic, and about misty magic, crossing borders into the land of enchantment, beyond the fields we know. Not for everyone. I read it in my 20s, which is probably the best time for this book. I loved it. The very first I read by Dunsany.

Mood and atmosphere I think are prime keys to Dunsany, not spectacular fantasy imagination like C. A. Smith or Jack Vance. A more subtle sense.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale, this thread has gotten me to thinking about
> the work by Dunsany that I don't care for, and now
> reading your thoughts on some of his stories,
> considering the immense volume of his output, it
> almost seems like his mind (imagination) was
> *always* ON, and that without some sort of focus,
> he just blurted out his ideas. So the stuff i
> liked best was Jorkens, and this imposed a sort of
> framework, which he adhered to much to his
> benefit, in my opinion.
>
> So, in a way, he seems very undisciplined.
>
> Your thoughts on this diverging observation?

Sawfish, I haven't read much Dunsany outside the volumes the Ballantine Fantasy Series reprinted, except for the book of his poems that I typed up, letter by letter, word for word, as a college undergraduate, and his novel The Curse of the Wise Woman. I have the Dover book Gods, Men, and Ghosts selection of Dunsany but haven't read everything in it.

But I suspect you are on to something; that Dunsany didn't have to meet the requirements of strict editors, at least as a rule. I wonder if some of his books were partially or wholly paid for by himself. I read Mark Amory's biography of Dunsany about 40 years ago and don't seem to remember anything about that, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case, although I think, also, that his work such as I've been commenting on in this thread had a vogue around a century ago. At times Dunsany seems to me like a "Decadent" but without the sex overtones. He might thus have had a product to offer for which there was a market then.

Knygatin, I first read Dunsany at 13, really got into his work at age 14. In particular, the first Ballantine collection of his stories, At the Edge of the World, was a book I treasured. One of my first fanzine articles was on Dunsany -- all praise, I'm sure. (The fanzine was Arazia, published out of Portland, Oregon, perhaps funded by the Portland Alliance of Fans.)

I'm enjoying this "experiment" of reading Dunsany in these not very attractive old Modern Library editions that lack the strong nostalgic appeal of the Ballantine paperbacks. I think sometimes it's worthwhile to read an author who bowled us over when we were youngsters in editions that lack those affectionate associations. But I don't think much of the stories I have read so far. It will be noticed that I haven't yet read any of his best-known fantasy classics for this thread.

By the way, back in the 1970s I think my favorite work by Dunsany was The Charwoman's Shadow, which, as I recall, had more plot than usual for Dunsany.

By the way, my Modern Library edition of The Book of Wonder has the Horace Brodzky endaper design, which seems ugly to me. It features ungainly looking male (if they have a sex) nude figures laboring with heavy M and L blocks. In the background, from left to right, is a cityscape that also suggests gravestones; then what might be a tree but looks like a dense cloud of smoke and fire; and then a generic rural scene.


[www.modernlib.com]

Dale, you mentioned Arthur Rackham would have suited as illustrator for "The Kith of the Elf-Folk". The original story collections by Dunsany have many illustrations by coeval Victorian artist Sidney H. Sime. Not as distinctly talented as Rackham, but with an imagination that suited Dunsany's tales well; at times visually superb, dark and witty.

Since I've mentioned the Jorkens tales more than once as my favorite Dunsany stories, I'm curious how many here have read these stories, of which there must be well over one hundred.

Similarly, I've always thought that some of Fitzgerald's best works were his Pat Hobby stories, about a hack Hollywood screen writer. Too, Fitzgerald's great reputation puzzles me; as an undergrad, it was not possible to successfully criticize The Gatsy, and by extension, Fitzgerald himself, and I suspect that the highly romanticized plot and characters of Gatsby, and their doomed love, elicited a sort of popular maudlin response as if it was a sort of Love Story that you did not have to feel guilty about liking.

I mean, to me, the plot and the main characters read like schmaltz romances for teen-aged girls. Maybe the best part was the description of the industrial wasteland thru which Tom had to pass, at one point.

Nowhere was the book as good as even Day of the Locust, a solid, but somewhat immature work indicative of better still to come.

Yes. Gatsby seems to me to be as clear a case of Emperor's New Clothes as one can find in undergrad English. You can always run down Hemingway, but not Fitzgerald.

But back to Jorkens and Pat Hobby. In both instances, these are lighthearted, entertaining tales that attempt to make no specific point, nor to convey any moral lessons. They may therefore be viewed as lesser works, and I would not be surprised if they are never covered in any literature classes, anywhere.

And yet they are very well done, controlled in pace and tone, in all ways the products of a superior writer. They should be admired for effective narrative technique and character development, since in both cases the central characters appear in multiple tales.

But, oh, well...!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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I've read hardly any Jorkens stories -- thank you for reminding us that they comprise a major part of Dunsany's productivity. There is indeed a whole lot:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Have you read 'em all, Sawfish?

I'm acquainted with Sime's Dunsany art, which used to intrigue me but isn't much to my taste. Folks here probably know that Dunsany wrote stories to fit Sime's art on occasion.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've read hardly any Jorkens stories -- thank you
> for reminding us that they comprise a major part
> of Dunsany's productivity. There is indeed a
> whole lot:
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> s
>
> Have you read 'em all, Sawfish?

Twice.

Once piecemeal, with some gaps of 3-3 months. This was 20 years ago.

The most recent time was 2 years ago, and I found them in the library catalog and ordered them and renewed them as needed, because there was apparently no one in line to read them after I was done.

Have you read the Pat Hobby stories? I ask this not to go off on a tangent, but I wonder if anyone has read, or even heard, of these stories.

>
> I'm acquainted with Sime's Dunsany art, which used
> to intrigue me but isn't much to my taste. Folks
> here probably know that Dunsany wrote stories to
> fit Sime's art on occasion.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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#5 “The Madness of Andelsprutz”

Another story about a “soul,” this time the soul of a city that was conquered. The city-soul hoped for 30 years that the mother-city, Akla, would help somehow, but the mother-city only laid a wreath against the walls of Andelsprutz, and could do no more. Then the Andelsprutz-soul went mad and, as a “grey shadow form,” left the city. After sitting for a while, raving, Andelsprutz was visited by the souls of Camelot, Troy, Carthage, Persepolis, &c., which soothed Andelsprutz’s soul and led her away, leaving the city dead forever. So far as I can tell, Andelsprutz, unlike the others mentioned, was not a real city, despite the Germanic name.

There are no details in the story to suggest that Dunsany intends to write poetically about the griefs of people who suffer the conquest of their cities in war. The details might actually suggest that the citizens surrendered, since the city seems to have been undamaged and, aside from having some conquerors in it, in occupation, the people’s lives seem to go on, with lights being lit at twilight and shutters lowered and so on. I thus infer that he really did mean to play with the fancy of a city having a soul of its own and that this was not necessarily the “epiphenomenon” of the people who live(d) in it. Some readers might see a “cosmic” viewpoint here, but others might feel the story deals in a highly unreal way with a topic (the experience of conquest) that has been addressed by literary artists of greater capacity than Lord Dunsany. Over against something such as Homer’s account of the conquest of Troy or Prescott’s account of the conquest of Tenochtitlan, Dunsany’s sketch seems hardly worth the writing.

Sawfish Wrote:

> Have you read the Pat Hobby stories? I ask this
> not to go off on a tangent, but I wonder if anyone
> has read, or even heard, of these stories.

Never heard of them, so far as I remember.

Quote:

DN:
Prescott’s account of the conquest of Tenochtitlan

I am unfamiliar with this. Can yiu supply a little more info?

I've read several versions of Bernal Diaz's account of the conquest. They are very vivid, and of course from the Spanish POV.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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That's Prescott's Conquest of Mexico. If you possibly can, get hold of the two-volume edition published in 1922 by Chatto & Windus, which is copiously illustrated by Keith Henderson, whose art for The Worm Ouroboros you'll know already. I'd rate this 2-volume book and Grant Uden's Dictionary of Chivalry, illustrated by Pauline Baynes, as among the most beautiful books I own.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's Prescott's Conquest of Mexico. If you
> possibly can, get hold of the two-volume edition
> published in 1922 by Chatto & Windus, which is
> copiously illustrated by Keith Henderson, whose
> art for The Worm Ouroboros you'll know already.
> I'd rate this 2-volume book and Grant Uden's
> Dictionary of Chivalry, illustrated by Pauline
> Baynes, as among the most beautiful books I own.


Thanks, Dale!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since I've mentioned the Jorkens tales more than
> once as my favorite Dunsany stories, I'm curious
> how many here have read these stories, of which
> there must be well over one hundred.
>
>

I have not read any of them. Are they character-driven, or do they have much fantastic and supernatural substance? I have very little interest in the human perspective or interactions when it comes to weird fiction, except as a reference point for the sense of perspective.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Since I've mentioned the Jorkens tales more
> than
> > once as my favorite Dunsany stories, I'm
> curious
> > how many here have read these stories, of which
> > there must be well over one hundred.
> >
> >
>
> I have not read any of them. Are they
> character-driven, or do they have much fantastic
> and supernatural substance? I have very little
> interest in the human perspective or interactions
> when it comes to weird fiction, except as a
> reference point for the sense of perspective.

They are a serious of comic/ironic anecdotes told by a confirmed ne'er-do-well (Jorkens) in a British private club setting,often for drinks, and sometimes to twit his nemesis, another member. There may/may not be supernatural elements, but because Jorkens relates them, and he is by nature unreliable...

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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In postings at the threads on The Beautiful, OT: A Metaphorical Way to View Current Cultural Changes, and Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness, I have lately invited discussion that's tended to stay pretty theoretical.

So here's a case study. The concepts might be relevant to Lord Dunsany. The notion for discussion: "Lord Dunsany's writings suggest that he lived in the period when sociological consciousness was displacing poetic consciousness, and that, on one hand, he had little or no attraction to the new sociological consciousness but lacked a robust poetic consciousness. Hence the typical Dunsany story is either a dream, as in the famous fantasies about idle days on the Yann, etc., or a lie, as in the Jorkens stories about a storyteller whose art is exercised so that he can get further alcoholic drinks at his club."

Dunsany is a pessimist. The emerging world of sociological consciousness looks deathly to him; but he has little belief in, or commitment to, concomitants of poetic consciousness (religion, scholarship, history, great art, etc.). He is drawn to poetic consciousness but believes that, after all, it has to do only with dreams or lies. One's sense is that his stories help him to pass the time till he dies.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 22 Jul 21 | 10:45AM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In postings at the threads on The Beautiful, OT: A
> Metaphorical Way to View Current Cultural Changes,
> and Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological
> Consciousness, I have lately invited discussion
> that's tended to stay pretty theoretical.
>
> So here's a case study. The concepts might be
> relevant to Lord Dunsany. The notion for
> discussion: "Lord Dunsany's writings suggest that
> he lived in the period when sociological
> consciousness was displacing poetic consciousness,
> and that, on one hand, he had little or no
> attraction to the new sociological consciousness
> but lacked a robust poetic consciousness. Hence
> the typical Dunsany story is either a dream, as in
> the famous fantasies about idle days on the Yann,
> etc., or a lie, as in the Jorkens stories about a
> storyteller whose art is exercised so that he can
> get further alcoholic drinks at his club."
>
> Dunsany is a pessimist. The emerging world of
> sociological consciousness looks deathly to him;
> but he has little belief in, or commitment to,
> concomitants of poetic consciousness (religion,
> scholarship, history, great art, etc.). He is
> drawn to poetic consciousness but believes that,
> after all, it has to do only with dreams or lies.
> One's sense is that his stories help him to pass
> the time till he dies.


In some ways, your description of Dunsany in the final paragraph applies to me, as well.

Since he was born to wealth and I wasn't, he had more time to kill, but in the end, we're both killing time as pleasantly as possible, waiting for it to end.

Does this make us both post-moderns?

But there the comparison may end. I think--and I feel sure--that things could be much, much worse. One need only look at history, or one's own antecedents, to see that by comparison, I've got it good in many ways.

And I could also have been born to a generation intent on giving away the farm, without really knowing what that means.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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#6 “The Hoard of the Gibbelins”

I thought of Tolkien’s warm, witty, inventive Farmer Giles of Ham, a medievalist’s lively tale of a knight and dragon. Dunsany’s ironic story makes the knight impelled by avarice, the moneylenders disturbed in case he should bring back treasure that would enable their debtors to pay them, the dragon who serves as the knight’s mount moved to subservience by a sardonic reminder of the stereotypical fate of his kind when knights attack them, and the uncanny Gibbelins eaters of human flesh who assuredly have no trouble luring greedy men to them. Tolkien revealed real feeling for and imaginative engagement with the traditions he deployed for fun in Giles, while Dunsany wanted his readers to enjoy their own sense of sophisticated amusement: humans hunger for money, Gibbelins for human flesh, dragons for the blood of maidens, and so this story of fairy-land is really about how everyone is “like that” – so do they all (cf. the expression cosi fan tutte, said of women). This is an example of why I see Dunsany as the anti-Tolkien.

Very interesting synopsis, Dale. I'll have to try to find it and read it.

There seems to be a cynicism that I would not have thought characteristic of Dunsany.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Fifty years or so ago, an adolescent kid could take to that kind of easy cynicism readily. It could be relatively new to him, not a literary flavor to which he was accustomed. The story has a plot, has adventure, has suggestions of strangeness, but that cynicism could appeal too.

And I think this is why Dunsany seems to be an author one can outgrow, even rather quickly. My buying of Dunsany books lasted longer than my interest -- I have a Tales of Three Hemispheres nicely illustrated by Tim Kirk that I've owned for about 40 years and never yet read, I suppose, while I eventually let go a copy of the Newcastle Forgotten Fantasy Library edition of Fifty-One Tales without having read it.

But what a favorite he was for me around the high school years. He's easy to read -- you hardly have to know anything in order to understand his stories, free as they are of a real sense of history, human complexity, etc. -- yet he can seem sophisticated, to a young reader. That can be attractive.

I would guess nearly all of the people who like Dunsany's fantasy short stories first read them as adolescents. Does anyone fall under their spell now who first read them as an adult? But of course I have a lot of them yet to revisit in this experiment in reading, and perhaps they'll do more for me than, now of retirement age, I expect them to. I do wonder if The Charwoman's Shadow might not still please me, too; and you've suggested the Jorkens stories as worth looking up.

I was never deeply impressed by most of the stories you've summarized, though "Kith of the Elf Folk" remains one of my favorite fantasies ever for its stronger sense of description and emotional depth than usual, leading up to that powerfully soaring climax. In my case it's true that I first read Dunsany during my adolescence and still rate him a little highly, though I have outgrown some of his fiction, like the Pegana and Book of Wonder stuff which were too brief and ironic for my taste.

Perhaps my issue is that I've never gone to university and majored in literature, so I never developed the sort of taste that would require a more rich and sophisticated sense of setting, psychology, experience, and anything else that might be important for stronger literature. HPL and CAS were both admirers of Dunsany (though CAS only liked a few books.), but neither of them attended university as students. It's possible I'd get over Dunsany completely (though never abandon or dismiss him) if I was exposed to a more steady, consistent pace of higher realistic literature.

By the way Dale, you seem to hold CAS just slightly above Dunsany, even though CAS often wrote fantasies that were also far-removed from reality, with settings in fabulous countries or imaginary planets having no connection with human history, and characters as simple as sorcerers seeking vengeance over love, and unbelievable creatures like the furry bat-toad-sloth-god from Saturn. If I understand you correctly, is this because CAS' fiction is generally more detailed than Dunsany's? Dunsany's stories make me think of living daydreams, while CAS' stories feel like accounts of other worlds that actually have some sense of history, time, nature, etc. no matter how distant from our real experiences.

Hespire, to start with CAS vs. Dunsany:

1.I want to thank ED folk for your hospitality in that you have made me welcome even though precious little of what I've written has been about CAS, and it's probably been evident that he is not one of my favorite authors. Any time you think I should pitch my tent somewhere else on that account, let me know.

2.Several years ago I set myself to read a fair bit of CAS and posted comments online, either here or at the Science Fiction and Fantasy Chronicles Forums. Guided by J. D. Worthington, I read enough of his stories to realize that there was more to his fiction than I tended to think. I'd have to look to see if I could find the remarks I posted. My sense is that Dunsany seems to make a point of the insubstantiality of his little tales where CAS doesn't.

By the way, I think that habit of Dunsany's gets things off on the wrong foot with me any more. I mean, Dunsany calls various stories of his "dreamer's tales." But when you are dreaming, do your dreams seem evanescent, as it were shiny soap bubbles? I don't think they do, and I've actually had a practice -- kept in only a desultory fashion -- of writing down my more interesting dreams. I see I haven't added to the document since last December!

So, anyway, we eventually realize that Dunsany's "dreamer's tales" work within an existing literary convention of his time, in which an artistic-type person, perhaps after supposedly smoking "Hasheesh," has a dream of some vaguely Oriental setting very different from his humdrum London residence.

This type of story might be an attenuated descendant of a rather powerful book, Thomas de Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium-Eater. I recommend the old Penguin Classics edition with the dragon on the cover if you can get hold of it. De Quincey's dreams are not various Dunsanian.

Oh, by the way, here's a note jotted 18 April 1982 that records an actual dream of mine -- about Dunsany. Perhaps others have dreamed of authors whom they have read.

----Just awoke (alarm clock) from a dream about Lord Dunsany. He was a lovable old man. Had a deep voice. He was very old but apparently was a friend of the family... maybe he was family? [We lived in Oregon and have no connections with Ireland, by the way.] ...I was just beginning to tell him that his writing had given me a lot of pleasure for years ... when he pulled out a sort of wallet and took out some sort of [word missing] and showed it to me and reminded me that I owed him 7.03 -- for a bus ticket (?) to "Pasadena" I had as a kid bought, I think. So Dad (I think) and I chuckled and I took out some money, first paying him 4 cents ("interest") then going into the paper money -- I had pounds, dollars, and roubles all mixed together. Then I woke up.----

I wouldn't be able now to say whether I'd been reading anything by Dunsany lately, but I'd read Mark Amory's biography of Dunsany about a month previously.------

And, fellow EDers, I have actually dreamed about Lovecraft once. Here are the notes:

-----11 Oct. 2020: waking about 4:03 a.m.: I dreamed that H. P. Lovecraft had borrowed, by mail, a book from the collection of the Oregon Historical Society about a sea captain…. Now, I found the book on a shelf of a library, perhaps the Ashland public library, with an Oregon collection, and in it, sure enough, was a slip with Lovecraft’s name, address (I think Providence was abbreviated as Pice), and the date(s) he had borrowed it, perhaps in the early 1930s. I think Chautauqua (probably not spelled correctly), Ashland, was stamped in the book. “Chautauqua” isn’t a Lovecraftian entity but a word referring to a late 19th-early 20th-century adult education movement. In the dream it seems I got, as it were, a vision of the former location of the library from which the book that Lovecraft had borrowed had been mailed, which had an element of Ashland’s Lithia Park and perhaps of the massive Foellinger Auditorium on the University of Illinois-Urbana campus. I think it did seem, in the dream, that the book’s present location was less grand than its former one, but perhaps they were the same. I waited for many hours to type up this record from the notes I scribbled when I woke.-----

It was a pleasant dream.

3.CAS seems to me more interesting than Dunsany biographically as regards Smith's location. I used to live not all that far from Auburn, California, when I lived in southern Oregon. And it's kind of intriguing to think of Smith writing while living in this small former Gold Rush (?) town. Dunsany seems to have been something of an aristocratic idler. I'm not interested in that Abbey Theatre business although I keep meaning to read more of Yeats's early poetry at least. It seems like Smith must have coped with some interesting factors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26 Jul 21 | 04:58PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire, to start with CAS vs. Dunsany:
>
> 1.I want to thank ED folk for your hospitality in
> that you have made me welcome even though precious
> little of what I've written has been about CAS,
> and it's probably been evident that he is not one
> of my favorite authors. Any time you think I
> should pitch my tent somewhere else on that
> account, let me know.

Not accepted.

You *have* to stay Dale.
>
> 2.Several years ago I set myself to read a fair
> bit of CAS and posted comments online, either here
> or at the Science Fiction and Fantasy Chronicles
> Forums. Guided by J. D. Worthington, I read
> enough of his stories to realize that there was
> more to his fiction than I tended to think. I'd
> have to look to see if I could find the remarks I
> posted. My sense is that Dunsany seems to make a
> point of the insubstantiality of his little tales
> where CAS doesn't.
>
> By the way, I think that habit of Dunsany's gets
> things off on the wrong foot with me any more. I
> mean, Dunsany calls various stories of his
> "dreamer's tales." But when you are dreaming, do
> your dreams seem evanescent, as it were shiny soap
> bubbles? I don't think they do, and I've actually
> had a practice -- kept in only a desultory fashion
> -- of writing down my more interesting dreams. I
> see I haven't added to the document since last
> December!
>
> So, anyway, we eventually realize that Dunsany's
> "dreamer's tales" work within an existing literary
> convention of his time, in which an artistic-type
> person, perhaps after supposedly smoking
> "Hasheesh," has a dream of some vaguely Oriental
> setting very different from his humdrum London
> residence.
>
> This type of story might be an attenuated
> descendant of a rather powerful book, Thomas de
> Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium-Eater.
> I recommend the old Penguin Classics edition with
> the dragon on the cover if you can get hold of it.
> De Quincey's dreams are not various Dunsanian.
>
> Oh, by the way, here's a note jotted 18 April 1982
> that records an actual dream of mine -- about
> Dunsany. Perhaps others have dreamed of authors
> whom they have read.
>
> ----Just awoke (alarm clock) from a dream about
> Lord Dunsany. He was a lovable old man. Had a deep
> voice. He was very old but apparently was a friend
> of the family... maybe he was family? ...I was
> just beginning to tell him that his writing had
> given me a lot of pleasure for years ... when he
> pulled out a sort of wallet and took out some sort
> of and showed it to me and reminded me that I
> owed him 7.03 -- for a bus ticket (?) to
> "Pasadena" I had as a kid bought, I think. So Dad
> (I think) and I chuckled and I took out some
> money, first paying him 4 cents ("interest") then
> going into the paper money -- I had pounds,
> dollars, and roubles all mixed together. Then I
> woke up.----
>
> I wouldn't be able now to say whether I'd been
> reading anything by Dunsany lately, but I'd read
> Mark Amory's biography of Dunsany about a month
> previously.------
>
> And, fellow EDers, I have actually dreamed about
> Lovecraft once. Here are the notes:
>
> -----11 Oct. 2020: waking about 4:03 a.m.: I
> dreamed that H. P. Lovecraft had borrowed, by
> mail, a book from the collection of the Oregon
> Historical Society about a sea captain…. Now, I
> found the book on a shelf of a library, perhaps
> the Ashland public library, with an Oregon
> collection, and in it, sure enough, was a slip
> with Lovecraft’s name, address (I think
> Providence was abbreviated as Pice), and the
> date(s) he had borrowed it, perhaps in the early
> 1930s. I think Chautauqua (probably not spelled
> correctly), Ashland, was stamped in the book.
> “Chautauqua” isn’t a Lovecraftian entity but
> a word referring to a late 19th-early 20th-century
> adult education movement. In the dream it seems I
> got, as it were, a vision of the former location
> of the library from which the book that Lovecraft
> had borrowed had been mailed, which had an element
> of Ashland’s Lithia Park and perhaps of the
> massive Foellinger Auditorium on the University of
> Illinois-Urbana campus. I think it did seem, in
> the dream, that the book’s present location was
> less grand than its former one, but perhaps they
> were the same. I waited for many hours to type up
> this record from the notes I scribbled when I
> woke.-----
>
> It was a pleasant dream.
>
> 3.CAS seems to me more interesting than Dunsany
> biographically as regards Smith's location. I
> used to live not all that far from Auburn,
> California, when I lived in southern Oregon. And
> it's kind of intriguing to think of Smith writing
> while living in this small former Gold Rush (?)
> town. Dunsany seems to have been something of an
> aristocratic idler. I'm not interested in that
> Abbey Theatre business although I keep meaning to
> read more of Yeats's early poetry at least. It
> seems like Smith must have coped with some
> interesting factors.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks, Sawfish! Pleasant dreams in timely wise to all.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks, Sawfish! Pleasant dreams in timely wise
> to all.


:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do wonder if The Charwoman's Shadow might
> not still please me, too;

OOh yes! I dare say you might bet your house, car, and entire Tolkien, C. S. Lewis and Coleridge collections on that! ;D It tells of the Golden Age, or its somber setting, in Andalusia.

Some of Dunsany I like very much; the Jorkens stories (despite HPL's criticisms of them) I find enjoyable and re-readable. And I liked several of the stories in A Dreamer's Tales. I'm glad I finally got the chance to read "The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth", which some consider the first example of (modern) Sword and Sorcery. I haven't finished the book yet because my niece dipped into it during a seaside vacation retreat, was entranced by Dunsany's writing, and forthwith borrowed it (with my blessing, of course!) Also, it was the original hardcover edition (I think) which added to the glamour; she being a devotee of early twentieth century culture (actually, 1920's jazz-age culture, but you can imagine a copy of the book residing on an art-deco end table from that era).

Where Dunsany loses me is with his Pegana tales. Several times I have tried to begin The Complete Pegana only to founder several stories (vignettes, entries) in. What's wrong with me? Pegana is obviously a foundation stone of modern fantasy; why can't I get into it? Maybe the subject matter is just too rarified for me.

Ken, others here might correct me if I'm in error here, but my impression is that not that many people really have been or are entranced by Dunsany's overtly mythological writing. They like his mock-legendary stories (like that "Fortress" one you mentioned) more. Even when I liked Dunsany a lot more than I do now, I wasn't captivated by that little book (The Gods of Pegana?) that Lin Carter reprinted in its entirety in one of his Dunsany editions for Ballantine.

Knygatin, I will set aside The Charwoman's Shadow someplace where it will catch my eye, but I don't expect to open it soon.

I have little time right now, but I agree that Pegana isn't so captivating. Maybe it's the lack of rich descriptions, maybe it's the irony which outweighs the sense of otherworldly horror/beauty that was so over-represented in HPL's praise (I don't mind irony in itself, I just wasn't expecting so much of it here), or maybe they were just so short and so airy that they couldn't stick to my mind.

This sentiment doesn't seem so uncommon. CAS wasn't a fan of Pegana, and even HPL's dream-like fantasy tales have more weight and sincerity to them.

Lovecraft thought Dunsany achieved his greatest height in the collection A Dreamer's Tales. And he found some of the charm was lost with The Book of Wonder, because it had too much detached irony and not fully believing in its own fantasy. When Lovecraft grew older he also admitted loosing interest in Dunsany's stories, finding their dreamy ethereal yearnings best suited for reading when one is younger. I would say early 20s is the perfect age.

I don't believe Lovecraft ever read or mentioned any of the Jorkens tales. Those were written by an older Dunsany during the latter half of his life.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When Lovecraft grew older he also admitted loosing
> interest in Dunsany's stories, finding their
> dreamy ethereal yearnings best suited for reading
> when one is younger. I would say early 20s is the
> perfect age.
>
>

To fully enjoy Dunsany's early fantasies at older age, I think one really has to detach oneself from all adult mundane anxieties. And that is rather difficult to do.

Knygatin Wrote:

MUCH SNIPPED...

>
> I don't believe Lovecraft ever read or mentioned
> any of the Jorkens tales. Those were written by an
> older Dunsany during the latter half of his life.


Again, if you want to spend a few days chuckling to yourself over these witty barroom anecdotes, I can recommend them without reservation.

And there are well over 100 of them, as I recall.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Sawfish. There must be something special about the Jorkens tales, because you have mentioned them quite often out of the ocean of other books you have read. I have set aside a future special shelf in my mind now for Jorkens.

I do have a couple of files, "Our Distant Cousins" and "The Slugly Beast", but have not had time to read them yet. There is a vast hoard of other newly discovered (dead) authors crowding in upon me. Like a zombie holocaust. ;)

*herd*

OK, herd, but hoard worked in this context and horde would've worked too!

*horde* Darn it! That was the word I wanted from the start!!

Ok, yes hoard works too, since I really am hoarding all these authors. It is greed. I doubt I will even have time to read them all.

Herding together a personal library of books gathered from various sources into one great hoard makes sense as preparation for surviving the cultural zombie horde descending upon us.

I'll have to try that argument with my wife the next time I get a Look about my acquiring so many books.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ok, yes hoard works too, since I really am
> hoarding all these authors. It is greed. I doubt I
> will even have time to read them all.
>

I think this could be turned into a fine horror tale (in film or book)! Like getting trapped by a woman's bodily beauty, and succumbing under its ultimate illusion, you may similarly get entangled in adoration for your favorite dead authors; and by reading them you really pull their strings, disturbing their rest, awakening their ghosts that will haunt you and crowd in upon you.

Is that idea just a little like the idea in John Meade Falkner's The Lost Stradivarius, where the unquiet party is a composer rather than an author?

Since the first Dunsany story I encountered was "The Hoard of the Gibbelins" I find this discussion very apt!

Ken, was that first encounter with Dunsany by means of the appearance of the Gibbelins story in an anthology called Monster Mix? That was mine, circa late 1968 or early 1969.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is that idea just a little like the idea in John
> Meade Falkner's The Lost Stradivarius, where the
> unquiet party is a composer rather than an author?


Perhaps ..., I am not familiar with that one. I thought I had something unique here! ;D

Back to Dunsany. My first was The King of the Elfland's Daughter. After that I don't exactly remember. Either I read his original collections in order (Luce editions), or else I started with A Dreamer's Tales and Tales of Three Hemispheres (both from Owlswick Press); I remember liking the "Idle Days on the Yann" trilogy (there were two follow-up stories!).

I found The Gods of Pegana boring. Dunsany used it to set up his mythology of the dreaming gods; it's a kind of bible. The second collection, Time and the Gods, was better, having some quaint descriptions of the lands of men.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herding together a personal library of books
> gathered from various sources into one great hoard
> makes sense as preparation for surviving the
> cultural zombie horde descending upon us.
>
>

Very good ...!!! Most well put.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I don't believe Lovecraft ever read or mentioned
> any of the Jorkens tales. Those were written by an
> older Dunsany during the latter half of his life.

He did. He called them "tripe". The first Jorkens collection appeared in 1931.

Martinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > I don't believe Lovecraft ever read or mentioned
> > any of the Jorkens tales. Those were written by an
> > older Dunsany during the latter half of his life.
>
> He did. He called them "tripe". The first Jorkens
> collection appeared in 1931.

Thanks Martinus. It is like I have mentioned before, Lovecraft, in spite of being a "dreamer on the nightside", did keep himself updated on current events.

I think this may be a case of preference. The Jorkens tales are perhaps better suited for worldly men, than dreamers of the fantastic.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martinus Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't believe Lovecraft ever read or
> mentioned
> > > any of the Jorkens tales. Those were written
> by an
> > > older Dunsany during the latter half of his
> life.
> >
> > He did. He called them "tripe". The first
> Jorkens
> > collection appeared in 1931.
>
> Thanks Martinus. It is like I have mentioned
> before, Lovecraft, in spite of being a "dreamer on
> the nightside", did keep himself updated on
> current events.
>
> I think this may be a case of preference. The
> Jorkens tales are perhaps better suited for
> worldly men, than dreamers of the fantastic.


Succinctly, the Jorkens stories are a running set piece, an extended episodic joke, that runs for 100+ stories.

They are like Fitzgerald's Patty Hobby stories. Hemingway has the Nick Adams stories, but they're not intended to be funny, as Jorkens or Hobby are.

If you're looking something of the cosmic, you've come to the wrong department.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Has anyone here read Dunsany's three autobiographies, Patches of Sunlight (1938), While The Sirens Slept (1944), and The Sirens Wake (1945)?

I have read Patches of Sunlight (1938). Found it rather pedestrian, not as poetic as Machen's first volume autobiography (of three) Far Off Things (1922). Beautiful title though. That's why I bought it.

Knygatin, I haven't read these. I had the impression also that they would be unsatisfactory, but a fantasy scholar said the first, at least, was good -- I forget just what he said. But it sounds like my impression was correct & I may as well not bother.

But Machen's Far-Off Things is simply one of my favorite books of all that I've read.

There is another collection by Dunsany called The Little Tales of Smethers, containing the famous short story "The Two Bottles of Relish".

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone here read Dunsany's three
> autobiographies, Patches of Sunlight (1938), While
> The Sirens Slept (1944), and The Sirens Wake
> (1945)?
>

I have. The first one is indeed the most interesting (and entertaining), even though Dunsany keeps his cards close to his chest and never gets too personal (the title is a hint; he skips many of the bad parts of his life). For the later books his only sources were his writing log, his hunting journal, and whatever letter he had written to his wife that he could find lying around. The two later books therefore become a long chain of anecdotes based on whatever associations these sources brought him.

Martinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has anyone here read Dunsany's three
> > autobiographies, Patches of Sunlight (1938), While
> > The Sirens Slept (1944), and The Sirens Wake
> > (1945)?
> >
>
> The first one is indeed the most
> interesting (and entertaining), even though
> Dunsany keeps his cards close to his chest and
> never gets too personal (the title is a hint; he
> skips many of the bad parts of his life).
>

Hmm, he was a soldier in the despicably wretched and woeful WW1. That must have been a hard hit on his dreaming fantasies. His writing was different after that. Still, he was able to write The King of Elfland's Daughter.


There was also a correspondence between Dunsany and A. C. Clarke, I would like to read.

In Clarke's essay Dunsany, Lord of Fantasy, he had this to say about Dunsany's writings:

"Dunsany is a poet in the truest sense, but it is in prose rather than in verse that his finest work has been done. No-one has ever approached his skill in suggesting, so flawlessly and with such economy of means, that the world is not exactly as we suppose. No-one can make the blood run cold with a simpler phrase, no-one can suggest so much while saying so little. His stories sparkle with ideas, often single sentences that challenge the mind with vertiginous implications. Under the magic of his art, the commonest things become enchanted, and. when his imagination soars away from earth we enter realms of fantasy indeed."

And Clarke said of The Charwoman's Shadow:

"The ending of The Charwoman's Shadow is the finest piece of pure magic I know in the whole of literature, [...]"

#7. “The Distressing Tale of Thangobrind the Jeweller, and of the Doom That Befell Him”

This is the story I’d begin with, to make the case that, in his famous short fantasies at least, Dunsany is the anti-Tolkien. (Tolkien himself regarded it as showing “Dunsany at his worst.”)

It’s the “Hoard of the Gibbelins” plot: a would-be thief seeks treasure of preposterous value, ventures in a well-prepared manner into the fastness of the guardian(s), is caught, and is hung up on a hook. The knight in “Hoard” was motivated by greed; the master thief is motivated by professionalism (“business was business” is repeated) and lust for the merchant’s daughter’s screams when he shall possess her soul.

Lin Carter used to rave about Dunsany’s invented names. Here we have Zid, Mursk, Snarp, Ag, and Woth, which probably few Dunsany admirers have celebrated; but they fit a story whose unreality the author is happy to emphasize, as he does in the well-known final paragraph: “And the only daughter of the Merchant prince felt so little gratitude for this great deliverance that she took to respectability of a militant kind, and became aggressively dull, and called her home the English Riviera, and had platitudes worked in worsted upon her tea-cosy, and in the end never died, but passed away at her residence.” The story-bubble bursts and the reader is meant to laugh, or, I suppose, grin anyway.

In other words, the whole thing is a performance and the reader is invited to feel sophisticated because he enjoys it. This is the opposite of Tolkien’s effort to give to the world a consistent secondary world and that awakens in us a refreshed, restored delight in the primary world.


[tolkiengateway.net]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11 Aug 21 | 10:00AM by Dale Nelson.

Sidney Sime's illustration for The King of Elfland's Daughter. Only a deeply poetic consciousness could have produced that art. How he saw the starry nightsky.

Here is the full essay Dunsany, Lord of Fantasy in the pages of the fanzine
FUTURIAN WAR DIGEST - Issue 38 (Vol. 5, Number 2) Dec. 1944, in which Clarke celebrates Dunsany as a true and genius artist.

Clarke also comments:

"... the entertaining chapter of autobiography WHILE THE SIRENS SLEPT which has recently appeared. This, and the earlier PATCHES OF SUNLIGHT, reveal the sources of much of Dunsany's inspiration, a point touched upon by Lovecraft in his masterly SUPERNATURAL HORROR IN LITERATURE."

It disrupts my prejudices that Clarke actually spent time reading Lovecraft's horror fiction essay, and focusing enthusistic praise upon it. Two such very different authors and personalities! I have carried this with me since childhood, after being bored by the movie: The author of 2001: A Space Odyssey must be "very dry and dull". But if one looks deeper into Clarke's stories, the association is not so startling after all. For example, his masterful Rendezvous with Rama is a book I am sure Lovecraft would have praised highly. They shared, at least, the cosmic consciousness, and a scientific, mixed with poetic, approach.

I don't know if the association between Clarke and Dunsany is even more surprising, ... or not.

Not sure if Clarke read Clark Ashton Smith. Smith is at least mentioned in Clarke's book of collected essays Greetings, carbon-based bipeds!.

It is WONDERFUL to have discovered such fantastic authors, each in their own right!

Wow, Knygatin! Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading the Clarke fanzine article.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is the full essay Dunsany, Lord of Fantasy in
> the pages of the fanzine
> FUTURIAN WAR DIGEST - Issue 38 (Vol. 5, Number 2)
> Dec. 1944, in which Clarke celebrates Dunsany as a
> true and genius artist.
>
> Clarke also comments:
>
> "... the entertaining chapter of autobiography
> WHILE THE SIRENS SLEPT which has recently
> appeared. This, and the earlier PATCHES OF
> SUNLIGHT, reveal the sources of much of Dunsany's
> inspiration, a point touched upon by Lovecraft in
> his masterly SUPERNATURAL HORROR IN LITERATURE."
>
> It disrupts my prejudices that Clarke actually
> spent time reading Lovecraft's horror fiction
> essay, and focusing enthusistic praise upon it.
> Two such very different authors and personalities!
> I have carried this with me since childhood, after
> being bored by the movie: The author of 2001: A
> Space Odyssey must be "very dry and dull".

FWIW, if memory serves, the film was *novelized* after-the-fact. There was no novel from which to work up a screen play. The novel came afterward, which to me implies that it was commercially driven.

The movie was a mixed bag: staggeringly good opening sequences, with music that enhanced the visuals, and then it got bogged down into metaphysical BS.

Kubrick was a very hit-and-miss director, in my opinion. He had tremendous visual sense (Ridley Scott is another such--but with no real pretensions to great revelations--a solid, gifted workman), and I think maybe Kubrick also flattered himself to think that he was revealing deep, hidden truths about whatever it was he chose to film.

But you get stuff like Barry Lyndon, a wretched, never-ending film if ever there was one.

I think he realized that by injecting very focused images that had strong sexual implications, it would help him. So we had the opening gratuitous sequence of Clockwork Orange, and the ritual sequence of Eyes Wide Shut.

The Shining was his natural metier, I think: good visuals, distorted characters, with no overarching meaning to be derived.

> But if
> one looks deeper into Clarke's stories, the
> association is not so startling after all. For
> example, his masterful Rendezvous with Rama is a
> book I am sure Lovecraft would have praised
> highly. They shared, at least, the cosmic
> consciousness, and a scientific, mixed with
> poetic, approach.

I think he also wrote The Star, which was an excellent vehicle for irony on a cosmic scale.

But his White Hart tales are really forced, contrived...

>
> I don't know if the association between Clarke and
> Dunsany is even more surprising, ... or not.
>
> Not sure if Clarke read Clark Ashton Smith. Smith
> is at least mentioned in Clarke's book of
> collected essays Greetings, carbon-based bipeds!.
>
> It is WONDERFUL to have discovered such fantastic
> authors, each in their own right!

Do you place great faith in the thoughts/ideas of authors and critics. K? I tend not to. I'll read them (maybe) to see if there are any "catalyst ideas" that fire up further interest, but seldom do I care what writer (or critic) X says in unqualified praise (or condemnation) of writer Y.

So if I hear that X doesn't think much of Y, unless X tells me *why*, exactly, and it seems valid, I don't care. I view it as subjective personal baggage he's passing along.

As much as I like/admire X's work, it's still simply background noise to be filtered out.

What say you, K?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #7. “The Distressing Tale of Thangobrind the
> Jeweller, and of the Doom That Befell Him”
>
> This is the story I’d begin with, to make the
> case that, in his famous short fantasies at least,
> Dunsany is the anti-Tolkien. (Tolkien himself
> regarded it as showing “Dunsany at his
> worst.”)
>
> It’s the “Hoard of the Gibbelins” plot: a
> would-be thief seeks treasure of preposterous
> value, ventures in a well-prepared manner into the
> fastness of the guardian(s), is caught, and is
> hung up on a hook. The knight in “Hoard” was
> motivated by greed; the master thief is motivated
> by professionalism (“business was business” is
> repeated) and lust for the merchant’s
> daughter’s screams when he shall possess her
> soul.
>
> Lin Carter used to rave about Dunsany’s invented
> names. Here we have Zid, Mursk, Snarp, Ag, and
> Woth, which probably few Dunsany admirers have
> celebrated; but they fit a story whose unreality
> the author is happy to emphasize, as he does in
> the well-known final paragraph: “And the only
> daughter of the Merchant prince felt so little
> gratitude for this great deliverance that she took
> to respectability of a militant kind, and became
> aggressively dull, and called her home the English
> Riviera, and had platitudes worked in worsted upon
> her tea-cosy, and in the end never died, but
> passed away at her residence.” The story-bubble
> bursts and the reader is meant to laugh, or, I
> suppose, grin anyway.
>
> In other words, the whole thing is a performance
> and the reader is invited to feel sophisticated
> because he enjoys it.

This is the sort of smarmy snark currently much in vogue.

It's a cheap sort of entertainment, if one has the stomach for the patently distasteful. You'd have to have the social mentality of an adolescent to enjoy it, I feel.

> This is the opposite of
> Tolkien’s effort to give to the world a
> consistent secondary world and that awakens in us
> a refreshed, restored delight in the primary
> world.

Yes. Tolkien's earnest honesty as the creator.narrator of an alternate universe (essentially), never fails to come thru. This makes Tolkien a satisfying read, if a bit devoid of humor and well handled irony.

But that's just my own personal quirk--subjective baggage... :^)
>
>
> [tolkiengateway.net]
> ressing_Tale_of_Thangobrind_the_Jeweler%22

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FWIW, if memory serves, the film was *novelized*
> after-the-fact. There was no novel from which to
> work up a screen play. The novel came afterward,
> which to me implies that it was commercially
> driven.
>

I think Kubrick and Clarke cooperated on the screenplay. It was Clarke's ideas, but Kubrick naturally wanted his say. After that Clarke wrote the book.

> Kubrick was a very hit-and-miss director, in my
> opinion. He had tremendous visual sense (Ridley
> Scott is another such--but with no real
> pretensions to great revelations--a solid, gifted
> workman), and I think maybe Kubrick also flattered
> himself to think that he was revealing deep,
> hidden truths about whatever it was he chose to
> film.
>

You may be right. But a great movie craftsman in every sense. (Anyway, it appears he exposed enough about "Illuminati" (the all-watching Eye at the top of the pyramid) in Eyes Wide Shut, to get himself killed; but that's another discussion.

> Do you place great faith in the thoughts/ideas of
> authors and critics. K? I tend not to. I'll read
> them (maybe) to see if there are any "catalyst
> ideas" that fire up further interest, but seldom
> do I care what writer (or critic) X says in
> unqualified praise (or condemnation) of writer Y.
>

It depends, like for you, on whether what they say suits my interests. ;)
I have greater faith in taking literary advice from a person I respect, than from one I don't. I generally have faith in what Lovecraft says (and it has proven right), but that doesn't mean I read everything he recommends; it must suit my subjective interests.

I think it is easier to find one's way to great books, if listening to recommendations of those with insights. Less effort and time is then wasted. I read lots of crap as a teenager, because I had no idea at all, just grabbing what was on the shelves in the book stores. After that I have leafed through many critical fantasy/science fiction/horror bibliographies. And I enjoy doing so. It becomes a mix of listening to the "experts" and trusting my own intuition. In the end it is I who make the final decision (an expert psychologist would perhaps argue differently), based on my interests and the artistic flavor of the author. It must click. Sometimes I have made bad choices, but most of the time not. On rare occasions I have reluctantly read authors I ruled out beforehand, and became pleasantly surprised.
Ultimately I trust my own judgment. First time I bumped into Lovecraft was by way of a Call of Cthulhu roleplaying game displayed in a shop window. Seeing his electric name, and a few illustrations of his settings and characteristic monsters (Gene Day's Cthulhu!), I immediately knew he would stay with me forever, without even having read a single story of his. And I was right.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FWIW, if memory serves, the film was
> *novelized*
> > after-the-fact. There was no novel from which
> to
> > work up a screen play. The novel came
> afterward,
> > which to me implies that it was commercially
> > driven.
> >
>
> I think Kubrick and Clarke cooperated on the
> screenplay. It was Clarke's ideas, but Kubrick
> naturally wanted his say. After that Clarke wrote
> the book.
>
> > Kubrick was a very hit-and-miss director, in my
> > opinion. He had tremendous visual sense (Ridley
> > Scott is another such--but with no real
> > pretensions to great revelations--a solid,
> gifted
> > workman), and I think maybe Kubrick also
> flattered
> > himself to think that he was revealing deep,
> > hidden truths about whatever it was he chose to
> > film.
> >
>
> You may be right. But a great movie craftsman in
> every sense. (Anyway, it appears he exposed enough
> about "Illuminati"

That's the Italian electrical workers' union, right?

> (the all-watching Eye at the
> top of the pyramid)

I thought it was supposed to be one of Jeffry Epstein's house parties...

> in Eyes Wide Shut, to get
> himself killed; but that's another discussion.

Do you feel that those involved in The Davinci Code have much to worry about?


>
> > Do you place great faith in the thoughts/ideas
> of
> > authors and critics. K? I tend not to. I'll
> read
> > them (maybe) to see if there are any "catalyst
> > ideas" that fire up further interest, but
> seldom
> > do I care what writer (or critic) X says in
> > unqualified praise (or condemnation) of writer
> Y.
> >
>
> It depends, like for you, on whether what they say
> suits my interests. ;)
> I have greater faith in taking literary advice
> from a person I respect, than from one I don't.

But everything you need to know about *the content* is right there for you to read. It's not that hard to evaluate it. You can err in the actual reading (I do), but once you settle on the text, it's up to either: a) the author convey his meaning or intently accurately enough to the target audience; or b) you, if you're not in the target audience, accept that the book is not aimed at you until you do what it takes to become part of the target.

> I
> generally have faith in what Lovecraft says (and
> it has proven right), but that doesn't mean I read
> everything he recommends; it must suit my
> subjective interests.

Specifically, does it matter that Arthur C. Clarke finds HPL's essay "masterly" if he doesn't bother to tell you *why*?

I mean, it seems like he''s trading on his own name recognition.

>
> I think it is easier to find one's way to great
> books, if listening to recommendations of those
> with insights. Less effort and time is then
> wasted. I read lots of crap as a teenager, because
> I had no idea at all, just grabbing what was on
> the shelves in the book stores. After that I have
> leafed through many critical fantasy/science
> fiction/horror bibliographies. And I enjoy doing
> so.

That becomes an entirely different endeavor than the aesthetic interpretation of an author's content.

It's a sort of "side gig"...

> It becomes a mix of listening to the "experts"
> and trusting my own intuition.

Maybe that's where we differ: maybe I tend not to trust experts except in quantifiable areas. I don't know them, at all, and have no idea of how they think.

Here a sort of difference.

You recommended Ligotti to me, and you are a quasi-known quantity, K, I know and like what I have read in our exchanges, have some idea of your tastes, and where we may differ, so I read Ligotti and while he expresses very distasteful thoughts, I feel I am the better for having read him.

At *your* recommendation.

Flip side was my recommendation to you of Melancholia. I've shot off my mouth so much here on ED that you know me pretty well, and you probably decided that in terms of thinking about the unthinkable, we may be similar, so you invested some time/energy in watching it and discussing it.

Many people here on ED, if they recommend something, I'll probably try it. They are known quantities. But someone like Clarke or Machen or Lewis are not, and so I place much less faith in their judgement.

I'll close this section with an illustrative anecdote.

I used to play a lot of tennis--competitive at the local level. I was very familiar with technical aspects of stroke production. I know what it takes to hit a successful topspin lob, e.g.

More than once I saw players I had played in competition giving lessons for money. Some of them were far, far better players than I was, and yet watching them teach the mechanics, I realized that while they could hit the particular shot almost perfectly, and consistently, they really had NO CLUE how they were doing it; it just came so naturally to them that it never entered into their consciousness, even in a rudimentary fashion, how they performed the shot.

Their advice was all but worthless, even though they were proven experts in their area.

Hah. And they took money for it, basically from hopeful klutzes.

Reading Stevenson recently, I wonder if he might be this sort of natural talent, has no clue how he does it. Too, I've long thought that a guy like Raymond Chandler, a natural stylist, had no clue, either.

> In the end it is I
> who make the final decision (an expert
> psychologist would perhaps argue differently),
> based on my interests and the artistic flavor of
> the author. It must click. Sometimes I have made
> bad choices, but most of the time not. On rare
> occasions I have reluctantly read authors I ruled
> out beforehand, and became pleasantly surprised.

Melville was like this for me, and Dreiser.

> Ultimately I trust my own judgment. First time I
> bumped into Lovecraft was by way of a Call of
> Cthulhu roleplaying game displayed in a shop
> window. Seeing his electric name, and a few
> illustrations of his settings and characteristic
> monsters (Gene Day's Cthulhu!), I immediately knew
> he would stay with me forever, without even having
> read a single story of his. And I was right.

Hah!

My first conscious awareness of Lovecraft was that there was a very short-lived rock band, in the 60s, I believe, and maybe the DJ said they were named after the famed horror author, H. P. Lovecraft.

Lessee...

Ah, here we go:

[en.wikipedia.org])

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do you feel that those involved in The Davinci
> Code have much to worry about?
>

I am not familiar with that story. It was a massive popular success, that every quasi-intellectual talked about, and my neighbor whom I found rather shallow mentioned it, seemingly to impress. So I saw no reason to read it.

> Specifically, does it matter that Arthur C. Clarke
> finds HPL's essay "masterly" if he doesn't bother
> to tell you *why*?
>

In the case of HPL's essay I don't need Clarke's opinion, since I already know it is masterful. But otherwise I might say, yes, because Clarke is a "known quantity", I am familiar with and respect his intellect. But I still wouldn't wholeheartedly take literary advice from him, because I find his interests too different from mine; he is much more focused on details of science and technology than I am. I feel closer accord with Lovecraft's and Smith's intellects. I trust their literary tastes are closer to mine. Still, Clarke has proven himself appreciative of both Dunsany and Lovecraft, which baffles me a bit.

> More than once I saw players I had played in
> competition giving lessons for money. Some of them
> were far, far better players than I was, and yet
> watching them teach the mechanics, I realized that
> while they could hit the particular shot almost
> perfectly, and consistently, they really had NO
> CLUE how they were doing it; it just came so
> naturally to them that it never entered into their
> consciousness, even in a rudimentary fashion, how
> they performed the shot.
>
> Their advice was all but worthless, even though
> they were proven experts in their area.
>
> Reading Stevenson recently, I wonder if he might
> be this sort of natural talent, has no clue how he
> does it. Too, I've long thought that a guy like
> Raymond Chandler, a natural stylist, had no clue,
> either.
>

Yes, creating and teaching are two completely different things. They certainly not necessarily go hand in hand. Some great artists are even pedagogical also, others are not. The greatest, or most productive, simply don't have time for that as well.
Too much of conscious intellect can actually get in the way of creativity, stalling it. (Lovecraft perhaps being the great exception. One mystery for me is whether Lovecraft calculated the effects, and cumulative effects, of every sentence in his stories - or whether he wrote intuitively. Same for Smith. There seems to be a mystic depth, that intellect couldn't possibly approach fully.)


Ok, that must be my last off topic post here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12 Aug 21 | 04:49PM by Knygatin.

Yes, Dale, I think that was the title of the anthology. I read it a long time ago, though. As I recall, it was a paperback and another of the stories was Donald Wollheim's "Mimic".

Ken, that's the same book then. My copy is long gone, but it was one of the first books I bought for myself. And I do remember "Mimic"!

Contents:

"The Day of the Dragon" by Guy Endore
"Mrs. Amworth" by E.F. Benson
"Daniel Webster and the Sea Serpent" by Stephen Vincent Benet
"Creature of the Snows" by William Sambrot
"Aepyornis Island" by H.G. Wells
"Fire in the Galley Stove" by William Outerson
"The Mannikin" by Robert Bloch
"The Wendigo" by Algernon Blackwood
"The Derelict" by William Hope Hodgson
"O Ugly Bird" by Manly Wade Wellman"
"Mimic" by Donald Wollheim
"The Hoard of the Gibbelins" by Lord Dunsany
"Footsteps Invisible" by Robert Arthur