Donald Wandrei, co-founder of Arkham House and pulp fictionist extraordinaire, wrote a Prose poem entitled, "The Death of the Flowers". It could easily be mistaken for one of Clark Ashton Smith's Prose poems, and is also easily one of the best Prose poems I have read. Smith's work in this vein, influenced by Arthur Rimbaud, Poe, and Baudelaire, reaches an unsurpassed height of consistent excellence in my view. I wonder who else might be cited as having been inspired by these works, among poets of the past half century? Also, do you have a favorite among all of Smith's Prose poems? Here is the closing paragraph of Wandrei's piece: "But one day, the woman did not come. The spoiled petals waited all day, and the flowers in their surpassing beauty and infinite weariness drooped in the glare of the sun, and the soft and brightly spotted orchids closed their petals of poisonous and intoxicating color and perfume. All that day, the woman did not enter the garden. She never came again, leaving, as she entered, in mystery. And one by one, the flowers drooped, and the petals fell to the ground. Foreign growths entered and stifled the flowers, and all the soft and lovely blooms decayed. And in the ruinous garden, the dried stems remained as the only vestige of a surpassing beauty, for the petals were blown and scattered; the lilies, the poppies, the roses, the strange and morbidly beautiful orchids withered to dust and dreams. And with the death of the flowers, the garden even as quickly passed into its sere autumn, desolate and forgotten".

jkh

Great topic!

Before we begin, I've always felt a bit uncomfortable about what, exactly a prose poem is. I'd think thyat if we throw out a few of CAS's works that we feel are prose poems, this would help.

I'll start with The Abomination of Yondo. I'd say that a prose poem is largely devoid of plot and character development, and more focused on description, either literal physical description, or an extended metaphor that takes a concept, likens it to something concrete, then develops the parallel.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great topic!
>
> I'll start with The Abomination of Yondo. I'd say
> that a prose poem is largely devoid of plot and
> character development, and more focused on
> description, either literal physical description,
> or an extended metaphor that takes a concept,
> likens it to something concrete, then develops the
> parallel.

Agreed. The Abominations of Yondo with its catalogue of horrors has been called a Prose poem, and isn't one. How about Sadastor? It compares favorably to Yondo; I don't think there's any question of that after a close rereading. Sadastor has all your defining qualities-- an extended metaphor developing a substantive parallel, a dense descriptive style (the sustained interstellar flight of the demon is tremendous), minimal or no character development, the phonetic patterns and rhythms sublimating the narrative content, etc. And yet I would hesitate to call it a Prose poem, such as The Shadows or any of the others included in the collected Prose poems. As an influence on other poetry in the fantasy field, I suppose we would have to speak to the poets themselves-- someone like Steve Eng, for instance, or a scholar like Phillip A. Ellis.

jkh

Ellis is the author of The Flayed Man and Other Poems, a collection of macabre verse, and if he hasn't written an essay on Smith's poetry yet, he should. Eng has been writing poems for several decades and was probably influenced by August Derleth's non-fiction and non-fantasy writings, judging by the poems I've just been reading. Anyway, to proceed with the CAS prose poetry (darkly imaginative configurations of lurid imagery honed to tonal and verbal perfection!), it might be interesting to trace relationships between them and Smith's poetry, fiction, artwork? How much do they emulate Baudelaire's "Spleen" prose poems (tone) or were Sir Thomas Browne and Lafcadio Hearn the chief influences (style)?

jkh

This is a very engaging exchange!

Quote:

kipling
[Yondo]...has been called a Prose poem, and isn't one.

I can easily see it as sort of straddling the prose poem/short story category, if push comes shove. Let's see...I'd like to personally work thru what constitutes a prose poem independently, just from my own limited exposure to them and what I perceive sets them aprat from a short story or other such short prose.

A prose poem won't introduce, then develop, a character. It may use a character as sort of narrative vehicle, to provide a POV, maybe, but it seems unlikely that the character will develop or change.

There should be minimal plot. This is because plot, itself, is the device to develop character, or to show evolution of a dynamic of some sort. If you have plot, you'll have change, and prose poems seem to me to be more in the nature of a vivid snapshot, and not a linear film clip.

You mention "...the phonetic patterns and rhythms sublimating the narrative content," and I certainly can see this as an important element, but would like to slightly diverge. I have never actually read passages and "heard" the phonetics, although I can detect a sort of rhythm, sometimes. But what is very much more common for me is to *see* the imagery described, and this is where CAS excels. Coleridge, too.

In fact, I'd tend to call this attribute "cinemagraphic" in that if this was presented as a screenplay, it would make visual sense to me. And this *visual* component is, to me, one of the definitive traits of a prose poem. So that it's possible for me to imagine a short story that is not very visual (this is easy because many SSs are not visual, to me at least), but I'd have trouble imagining a prose poem that is not visual.

So, to get back your response, you mention that you'd hesitate to label Sadastor as a prose poem, and having just re-read it I can see the structural narrative similarity to Yondo: you have a sort of a framing device whereby the bulk of the of description--which is the artistic payload--is preceded by a bit of plot. In Yondo, the POV has offended some vengeful priests who after torturing him, seem to release him at the edge of Yondo, which is described as he moves thru it. Then, he flees back to the priests.

There's also a sort of plot in Sadastor, where a demon tells a sort of travelogue to a lamia ("a demon and a lamia walk into a bar..."), the point of this narrative is that as bad as you think you have it, I know of worse. But the actual payload is, as you say, the description of the demon's travels and activities.

But then I look at The Forbidden Forest, which is to be found listed among CAS's prose poetry, and it too, shares the device of a plot, like Yondo and Sadastor, and is structurally and descriptively very similar. In fact, the main difference I detect is simply length.

Can it be that the defining feature of a prose poem, and what differentiates it from highly descriptive short stories like Sadastor, is length?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a very engaging exchange!
>
> ...has been called a Prose poem, and isn't one.
>
> I can easily see it as sort of straddling the
> prose poem/short story category, if push comes
> shove. Let's see...I'd like to personally work
> thru what constitutes a prose poem...
>
> A prose poem won't introduce, then develop, a
> character. It may use a character as sort of
> narrative vehicle, to provide a POV, maybe, but it
> seems unlikely that the character will develop or
> change.
>
> There should be minimal plot. This is because
> plot, itself, is the device to develop character,
> or to show evolution of a dynamic of some sort. If
> you have plot, you'll have change, and prose poems
> seem to me to be more in the nature of a vivid
> snapshot, and not a linear film clip.
>
> You mention "...the phonetic patterns and rhythms
> sublimating the narrative content," and I
> certainly can see this as an important element,
> but would like to slightly diverge. I have never
> actually read passages and "heard" the phonetics,
> although I can detect a sort of rhythm, sometimes.
> But what is very much more common for me is to
> *see* the imagery described, and this is where CAS
> excels. Coleridge, too.
>
> In fact, I'd tend to call this attribute
> "cinemagraphic" in that if this was presented as a
> screenplay, it would make visual sense to me. And
> this *visual* component is, to me, one of the
> definitive traits of a prose poem. So that it's
> possible for me to imagine a short story that is
> not very visual (this is easy because many SSs are
> not visual, to me at least), but I'd have trouble
> imagining a prose poem that is not visual.
>
> So, to get back your response, you mention that
> you'd hesitate to label Sadastor as a prose poem,
> and having just re-read it I can see the
> structural narrative similarity to Yondo: you have
> a sort of a framing device whereby the bulk of the
> of description--which is the artistic payload--is
> preceded by a bit of plot. In Yondo, the POV has
> offended some vengeful priests who after torturing
> him, seem to release him at the edge of Yondo,
> which is described as he moves thru it. Then, he
> flees back to the priests.
>
> There's also a sort of plot in Sadastor, where a
> demon tells a sort of travelogue to a lamia ("a
> demon and a lamia walk into a bar..."), the point
> of this narrative is that as bad as you think you
> have it, I know of worse. But the actual payload
> is, as you say, the description of the demon's
> travels and activities.
>
> But then I look at The Forbidden Forest, which is
> to be found listed among CAS's prose poetry, and
> it too, shares the device of a plot, like Yondo
> and Sadastor, and is structurally and
> descriptively very similar. In fact, the main
> difference I detect is simply length.
>
> Can it be that the defining feature of a prose
> poem, and what differentiates it from highly
> descriptive short stories like Sadastor, is
> length?

Excellent commentary, Sawfish! Each time I delve into these works the questions of form and definition are raised, puzzlingly, and your question about length is apropos. To contrast The Forbidden Forest, which as you say has a perhaps too-linear plot to be a prose poem, but invites a psychological interpretation in metaphorical fashion like many of the others, what would you say about The Demon, The Angel, and Beauty? Despite its moderate length for a prose poem (accepting length as a not necessarily disqualifying factor), we have here a very tightly constructed set of Q & A involving a narrator and the characters of a demon and an angel on both the physical and spiritual aspects of Beauty. Does Beauty, Smith's Muse, truly exist, or is She (or He, since the godhead is androgynous), "a web of shadow and delusion"? Or is it "the thing upon which God meditateth," selfishly? An essay could be written on the philosophical bent of this one! And it is a prose poem I think because each of the characters is unchanging-- it is only their language and experience that we are shown, which provide the "vivid snapshot" you mentioned as a defining characteristic of the form.

jkh

Kipling Wrote:

...my stuff deleted...

>
> Excellent commentary, Sawfish! Each time I delve
> into these works the questions of form and
> definition are raised, puzzlingly, and your
> question about length is apropos. To contrast The
> Forbidden Forest, which as you say has a perhaps
> too-linear plot to be a prose poem, but invites a
> psychological interpretation in metaphorical
> fashion like many of the others, what would you
> say about The Demon, The Angel, and Beauty?
> Despite its moderate length for a prose poem
> (accepting length as a not necessarily
> disqualifying factor), we have here a very tightly
> constructed set of Q & A involving a narrator and
> the characters of a demon and an angel on both the
> physical and spiritual aspects of Beauty. Does
> Beauty, Smith's Muse, truly exist, or is She (or
> He, since the godhead is androgynous), "a web of
> shadow and delusion"? Or is it "the thing upon
> which God meditateth," selfishly? An essay could
> be written on the philosophical bent of this one!

No kidding!!! This is one of the best CAS pieces I've read, when considered as an attempted explanation of the sublime. It's loaded with irony: neither high-ranking demons, nor distinguished seraphim have actually experienced it, the Demon thinks that maybe God made to use as a dark joke, while the seraphim think that its direct perception is both God's private prerogative, and, unless I'm misreading this, it is the reason that God, himself, has made no appearance to even these same seraphim.

Certainly shakes up the traditional deistic metaphysic, doesn't it?

(Side note: after reading Sadastor and this one, the lives of demons seem a lot like a cosmic 1960s outlaw motorcyclist...)

> And it is a prose poem I think because each of the
> characters is unchanging-- it is only their
> language and experience that we are shown, which
> provide the "vivid snapshot" you mentioned as a
> defining characteristic of the form.

I think you are right: the "characters" are there merely to be used as reference volumes--they supply recognized authority for the underlying information given to the first person POV.

This is really a great exchange, Kipling. Thanks for taking the time to explore this with me.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few thoughts on what is or is not a prose poem. Some would say that a prose poem is a contradiction in terms. And I admit I sort of feel that way, since I am a sucker for rhyme and meter.

But to the extent I have a definition, I would say that a "prose poem" is a concentrated effort to write as well as possible, expressing oneself as strongly and as vividly and as efficiently as possible in relatively few words. Which does not necessarily rule out a long prose poem, if it were possible to extend such concentrated efforts over a work of significant length. I see no reason to define a prose poem as not having a plot or character development. Anything worth saying can be the subject of a prose poem.

"Nyarlathotep" by H.P. Lovecraft, has been called a prose poem, though I think it also qualifies as a story. I don't know what others here think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Dec 21 | 07:50PM by Platypus.