Lovecraft and CAS are obviously well documented. However, what about the lesser known individuals of their lives. F. Lee Baldwin, R.H. Barlow, James F. Morton, Rheinhart Kleiner, Kenneth Sterling. I'm sure this and many other people may be covered in books but where can one find out information on what became of them; especially their death dates and where they are buried. Especially R.H. Barlow and the entire Barlow family- ashes scattered??? I know this may be a morbid question but all of us have a bit of morbid curiosity within them.

Thanks all and happy late Easter.

The internet will often provide guidelines to questions, if you Google. If it's not there, then it likely doesn't exist. Wikipedia has some information on Barlow.

Why are you interested in these persons, and specifically Barlow? What is so fascinating about him?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The internet will often provide guidelines to
> questions, if you Google. If it's not there, then
> it likely doesn't exist. Wikipedia has some
> information on Barlow.
>
> Why are you interested in these persons, and
> specifically Barlow? What is so fascinating about
> him?

It is weird but I enjoy Barlow's work, the little that hes done and I seem to relate to him. His life, his struggles (except the gay part) and his views I can relate to. I don't know its tough to explain. I'm also that way with Lovecraft.

I enjoyed the images in Collapsing Cosmoses, and remember The Night Ocean as a well-written dreamy sojourn by an East coast sandy shore.

Personally though, I am very careful in selecting model ideals for inspiration. I prefer individuals of stronger constitution. I think that is important, as I myself am rather emotional and mentally fragile, and experience that outside guidelines can have significant impression over time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16 Apr 09 | 03:37AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally though, I am very careful in selecting
> model ideals for inspiration.

At the same time I can appreciate to some degree a fascination for exploring the lives of ordinary, mediocre, or unsuccessful individuals. It feeds a pioneer need to visit or hold on to something (whatever it my be) that is rare simply by being unknown to the masses. And also serves as a realistic study of the general destinies of ordinary people, which is useful to an artist.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 16 Apr 09 | 05:49AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Personally though, I am very careful in
> selecting
> > model ideals for inspiration.
>
> At the same time I can appreciate to some degree a
> fascination for exploring the lives of ordinary,
> mediocre, or unsuccessful individuals. It feeds a
> pioneer need to visit or hold on to something
> (whatever it my be) that is rare simply by being
> unknown to the masses. And also serves as a
> realistic study of the general destinies of
> ordinary people, which is useful to an artist

On the other end of the spectrum I can say I admire the work of Ambrose Bierce. His sense of individualism was strong and he had that attitude of "I write what I want and don't cross me" and that really strengthens each one of my individual artistic steps. He even said that the short story is superior to the novel because in actuality the novel is a much padded short story.

OConnor,CD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lovecraft and CAS are obviously well documented.
> However, what about the lesser known individuals
> of their lives. F. Lee Baldwin, R.H. Barlow, James
> F. Morton, Rheinhart Kleiner, Kenneth Sterling.
> I'm sure this and many other people may be covered
> in books but where can one find out information on
> what became of them; especially their death dates
> and where they are buried. Especially R.H. Barlow
> and the entire Barlow family- ashes scattered??? I
> know this may be a morbid question but all of us
> have a bit of morbid curiosity within them.
>
> Thanks all and happy late Easter.

The H. P. Lovecraft Encyclopedia [www.hippocampuspress.com] has entries on many of HPL's (and thus also CAS's) associates (although not burial information!). Most of this information isn't in the internet (e.g. Wikipedia) unless it has been nicked from works like this! I think many of these persons were interesting figures in their own right, but unless they were also authors of note not much is generally known of them. The introductions to HPL's published letter collections by Joshi & Schultz include some biographical details, such as the letters to Kleiner and Barlow (the latter also has autobiographical material appended). And if I'm not mistaken, Massimo Berruti who used to be a member of EOD has been working on a monograph on Barlow which might come out some time in the future. James F. Morton is one I personally would like to know more about as he seems to have been a remarkable individual; I thought that Hippocampus Press was going to publish Lovecraft's letters to him (or what exists in transcripts by Arkham House, & presumably what also survives of Morton's side) but it seems that this has been delayed, maybe because other collections (HPL/REH, HPL/CAS) have been given higher priority. The letters to Morton are well presented in AH's Selected Letters, but aside from casting light on JFM, such a volume would be very welcome as Lovecraft's epistles to him are probably among his most interesting letter cycles.

If for some reason you just want the death dates, some (but only some...) are listed here: [www.hplovecraft.com]
Not sure if that's entirely up to date, but even if it isn't, very few people who knew HPL are actually still alive (such as Harry Brobst, the last I heard anyway).

- JMR

walrus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
very few people who knew HPL are
> actually still alive (such as Harry Brobst, the
> last I heard anyway).
>
> - JMR


There are actually people still alive today who knew Lovecraft in person? That is a fascinating, long lasting, link. It would be interesting to hear these people speak personally about Lovecraft today (like Dr Farmer shares personal memories of CAS here on this site). A video interview would be great, to hear and sense the energies that have been in direct connection to Lovecraft.

Yes, Harry Brobst celebrated his 100th birthday in February -- he lived in Providence in the 1930s, visited HPL in the hospital during his final days, and attended his funeral. AFAIK, he has already shared his memories of HPL in a telephone interview with Will Murray, played at the Lovecraft Centennial Conference in 1991 and printed (in part) in Lovecraft Remembered.

There is also, according to Ken Faig, Jr., a member of the Phillips family who visited HPL and Annie Gamwell at 66 College Street when she was five years old.

It feels almost like having some stately Roman, or noble well-dressed gentleman of the 1700s, come alive and walk among us today in this our shabby time in history, the ghost or spirit of Lovecraft still hibernating in secluded corners. I wish these last glimmering remains were contacted and let shine some light.

That telephone interview with Harry Brobst played at the Conference, was a nice initiative.

> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> I can appreciate to some degree a
> fascination for exploring the lives of ordinary,
> mediocre, or unsuccessful individuals. It feeds a
> pioneer need to visit or hold on to something
> (whatever it my be) that is rare simply by being
> unknown to the masses. And also serves as a
> realistic study of the general destinies of
> ordinary people, which is useful to an artist


This last discussion gives one more reason for being interested.

With open eyes, one can probably discover exciting aspects in every person's life.



OConnor,CD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He even said that the short story
> is superior to the novel because in actuality the
> novel is a much padded short story.~

Yes, I often think a story should not be longer than it can be read in one comfortable sitting. I rather experience a work of art in whole, and not split up in parts. (But of course, coming back night after night, to a good evolving story, has its charm too.)

And all that padded filler in most novels is very annoying. Every sentence should be essential.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19 Apr 09 | 02:57AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It feels almost like having some stately Roman, or
> noble well-dressed gentleman of the 1700s, come
> alive and walk among us today in this our shabby
> time in history, the ghost or spirit of Lovecraft
> still hibernating in secluded corners. I wish
> these last glimmering remains were contacted and
> let shine some light.
>
> That telephone interview with Harry Brobst played
> at the Conference, was a nice initiative.

HPL would have understood the sentiment -- he was himself fascinated to have met, as a child, a person who had been born in his beloved 18th century.

Of course practically anyone who is known to have known Lovecraft and is still alive has been contacted at some point and many have written memoirs -- if you don't have it, you should get Lovecraft Remembered, it's perhaps an even more valuable work than STJ's biography. The Brobst interview is very worthwhile -- and the W. Paul Cook memoir is probably alone worth the price of admission. I don't offhand remember who aside from Brobst is still with us since several others have passed recently (such as Forrest J Ackerman), but there are some -- although not necessarily anyone who had met him in person.

About Barlow -- he's a tragic figure who had great promise. Who knows what might have been if Donald Wandrei hadn't bullied him out of the picture?

- JMR

walrus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> -- if you don't have it, you should get
> Lovecraft Remembered, it's perhaps an even more
> valuable work than STJ's biography. The Brobst
> interview is very worthwhile -- and the W. Paul
> Cook memoir is probably alone worth the price of
> admission.
>
> - JMR

Are you sure, are they really evocative and presenting part of Lovecraft's spirit? Aside from those who actually met him in life, I would think a written biography as rather constructed. Reading Lovecraft's own letters, has let me come close to him, and more letters a being published all the time. I did read Long's Dreamer on the Nightside many years ago, but don't remember that it was very enjoyable. Few are as descriptively talented as Lovecraft. Seeing, or hearing them talk live, is another matter, since that has all its own mediating of complex energies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19 Apr 09 | 02:53PM by Knygatin.

I agree with walrus: Lovecraft Remembered is a great book, and W. Paul Cook's memoir in particular makes it worth buying. I also remember nice memoirs by Donald Wandrei, Rheinhart Kleiner, E. A. Edkins, and Dorothy C. Walter. They definitely make HPL come alive.

Dreamer on the Night Side was written 50 years after the events it describes, so it's not that reliable. Besides, it was apparently so muddled that it had to be quietly revised by the editor of Arkham House, James Turner.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you sure, are they really evocative and presenting part of Lovecraft's spirit? Aside from those who actually met him in life, I would think a written biography as rather constructed.

Most of the items collected in that book are by people who knew or had met him in person, and are thus invaluable. Many are not very long, but a collective picture emerges from them nonetheless. If one just reads the letters -- vast though the amount is -- the image will still be incomplete (as it of course is even with the memoirs, but less so).

> Reading Lovecraft's own letters, has let me come close to him, and more letters a being published all the time.

Naturally the letters are a priority -- but I would still highly recommend LR as an accompaniment.

> I did read Long's Dreamer on the Nightside many years ago, but don't remember that it was very enjoyable. Few are as descriptively talented as Lovecraft. Seeing, or hearing them talk live,
> is another matter, since that has all its own mediating of complex energies.

As Martin indicated, Long's book is problematic and generally not held in high regard, and I suppose it could be described as very much a wasted opportunity -- but the circumstances of its writing are that Long was alarmed of DeCamp's upcoming bio and put his memoir together in very quick order. Alas, since he perhaps knew HPL better than anyone else.

- JMR

It does sound interesting.

Speaking of Wandrei. I read Mysteries of Time and Spirit: Letters of H.P. Lovecraft and Donald Wandrei, and didn't think Wandrei quite could hold a candle to Lovecraft. And also I sensed an unpleasant undercurrent of ego competition, that wasn't honestly brought to the surface. Halfway through the book I tended to skip over Wandrei's letters.

I do look forwad to the Lovecraft/Smith correspondence! And I probably should get the Lovecraft/Howard too, if it wasn't so darned expensive.

Is it these memoirs, along with Lovecraft's letters, that Joshi has pretty much used in building up his biography Lovecraft: A Life?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20 Apr 09 | 03:22PM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I will have to add my voice to those recommending LR, and Cook's memoir in particular, which is both a delight to read and very informative. There's an enormous amount of information, viewed through the special lens of each of these acquaintances/friends/correspondents of HPL's, which gives even more dimension to Lovecraft the man, both his sometimes thorny quirks and his warm humanity.


> Is it these memoirs, along with Lovecraft's
> letters, that Joshi has pretty much used in
> building up his biography Lovecraft: A Life?

I'm certainly not the best one to answer this, but if you look at the bibliography of Joshi's volume, you'll see just what an enormous amount of material was consulted. I especially note the work of such researchers as Kenneth W. Faig, Jr., and R. Alain Everts, among others; much of which has become rather difficult to obtain or has never been released for the larger public. Fortunately, a good selection of Faig's work is to be released by Hippocampus Press:

[www.hippocampuspress.com]

And, of course, there were the various other documents which are neither letters nor memoirs, such as Barlow's copy of entries from the so-called "death diary", or Lovecraft's "Instructions in Case of Decease", and the like.

Again, though, the best guide to what was used is a look at the bibliography itself, which provides quite a bit of secondary material for the student of Lovecraft....

I've just acquired many new items having to do with Lovecraft. One of them is from 1945 I believe and entitled, "Rhode Island on Lovecraft. I was very much pleased when I found and purchased this item for a fair sum. Having read it, especially Murial Eddy (C.M. Eddys' Wife") account of Lovecraft. In it I got the impression of a good humored person who held a fascination for the unknown and held a pessimistic outlook on his work. Some of the entries are:

Murial's accounts:

1. The first thing we noticed about Lovecraft was his eyes, which, behind their spectacles, beamed upon us with friendliness- they were gentle, benign, smiling, such a deep brown that they seemed almost black.
2. When he removed his hat we saw that his hair was carefully groomed and a glossy jet black.
3. Then he shrugged deprecatingly, chuckled and said, "I'm afraid that you over estimate the value of my work because you, yourselves, enjoy reading my trash- I assure you there's nothing phenomenal about my stories; most of them are a result of a vivid imagination, that's all.
4. Many times Lovecraft would suprise us with a gift of sweets for the children, who were then small- Milk chocolate bars were his favorite and it seemed he always kept a supply on hand.
5. Final piece I chose because of its humor. Who would of thought Lovecraft had this side to him:

" Once we had cold chicken in the icebox, and, offering our guest some, at one of our many midnight get to get togethers, he surprised us by exclaiming, " To be sure- and don't bother with the silverware, it's lots more fun eating chicken with ones fingers".

Hope you all enjoyed it. "RHode Island On Lovecraft; Grant Hadley: 1945)

Imagine, eating chicken with your fingers! That Lovecraft sure was one wild and crazy guy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29 Apr 09 | 01:42PM by Jojo Lapin X.

Maybe they all sang "Yes, We Have No Bananas" after dinner, too....

John Keats is a poet I don't understand. I try to read him over and over, but there is a "wall" denying entrance. (I enjoy the few excerpts I have read from his letters though.) I have no problem understanding Shakspeare, and likewise enjoy Wordsworth and Shelley. But Keats! It's like he speaks in code, or from the perspective of a private secret mystic society. What IS the essence of Keats? How does one get into it?

I have kept my book of The Complete Poems, because I really like the cover painting by Samuel Palmer! And since there is a relation to CAS's poetry. But I don't understand it.

Keats's sensually rich language and languorous, serpentine sentences can be difficult, certainly, and especially for one whose native language is not English. One key is to try to get at Keats by way of the work of Keats's "hero", Edmund Spenser. The latter's Faerie Queene might prove a useful transition from Shakespeare to Keats.

When I was younger, in search of fantasy, I tried reading Spenser's The Faerie Queene, but rather quickly gave up. I settled for the fairy lore I found in Robert Kirk's The Secret Commonwealth, and in Thomas Keightley's The Fairy Mythology.

Well, I certainly would not suggest reading Spenser primarily for the stories!

Anyway, sorry that my suggestion is not helpful. It's a shame that you have such difficulty with Keats, as he is one of the three or four greatest poets in English, in my estimation. CAS himself mentioned in a letter his opinion that Keats's work is perhaps the richest in memorable individual lines.

I do appreciate your thoughts on Keats, and suggestions. Well, not all of Keats' world is cut off from me. I like portions here and there. His sense of beauty seems very subtle and sensitive, so the mind needs to be all quiet and patient when reading him. His personal way using of classic mythology for symbolism, is perhaps the primary difficulty for me to get past.

It is true that my native language is not English, and I agree that it is difficult to get fully into the English language if one is not born into it. I envy the Anglo-Saxon mind's way of thinking, the description and understanding of reality that goes deeper and beyond the purely rational. There is an intuitive approach and acceptance, and vast appreciation for and sense of nuances, that I miss in the more squarely defined structures of German and Scandinavian languages. I am glad that I have at least some Anglo-Saxon blood in me from my grandmother.
On the other hand, in this modern materialistic age, I am sure that a large number of native English speaking have a lot more difficulty getting into Keats than I do.

About Spenser... I doubt I will find the energy and time getting into that. I have soo many other books I want to read. And reread, over and over, for as many times as Life will allow me.

Speaking of Keats, I would recommend without hesitation Tim Powers' novel The Stress of Her Regard, in which Keats is a major character, along with Wordsworth, Shelley, and Byron. (And the title derives from a poem by CAS to boot!)

Best,
Scott

Perhaps an annotated edition of Keats would also help. One of my favorites is the Riverside Edition of Keats's selected poems and letters, edited by Douglas Bush. There is also a recent (and long overdue) Norton Critical Edition of Keats's works.

Quote:

His personal way using of classic mythology for symbolism, is perhaps the primary difficulty for me to get past.

I can certainly see the difficulties that this would pose. I would add as an aside that these difficulties are magnified, I think, in Hoelderlin's work, as that poet makes even more idiosyncratic and personal use of Classical tropes in his poetry.

Thanks, Scott, for the reference to Powers's novel that incorporates historical figures from English Romanticism; it's an interesting approach. Shelley and Byron also figure as characters in Robert Aickman's masterful short story "Pages from a Young Girl's Journal", but only very briefly and peripherally.

Scott Connors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking of Keats, I would recommend without
> hesitation Tim Powers' novel The Stress of Her
> Regard, in which Keats is a major character, along
> with Wordsworth, Shelley, and Byron. (And the
> title derives from a poem by CAS to boot!)

I'll second that -- brilliant book!

Arthur Machen said in Hieroglyphics, his study of ecstasy in literature:

"... The most perfect form of literature is, no doubt, lyrical poetry, which is, ..., almost pure idea, art with scarcely an alloy of artifice, expressed in magic words, in the voice of music. ... a perfect lyric, such as Keats' Belle Dame sans Mercury... a spirit with the luminous body of melody. But (in our age, at all events) a prose romance must put on a grosser and more material envelope than this, it must have incident, corporeity, relation to material things... To a certain extent, then, the idea must be materialized, but still it must always shine through the fleshy vestment; the body must never be mere body but always the body of the spirit, existing to conceal and yet to manifest the spirit..."

I feel that Keats' poetry is ethereal... floating, dreamy. There are no real material reference points, mental manifestations from which to relate, gain foothold and navigate. His descriptions of the material world are so purely imaginary, and plucked from back memory, that they lack actual weight and consummate colors. For someone like me, who thinks more in visuals than abstractions, this makes it very difficult to remember what I have read.


Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAS himself
> mentioned in a letter his opinion that Keats's
> work is perhaps the richest in memorable
> individual lines.


This is interesting. And as Dr Farmer has described earlier, CAS had a profound intellectual memory of literary lines. So here is a deep appreciation for the singing rythm in the words themselves. And ability to tap abstractions.

CAS himself had a balance between both the ethereal, and ability to paint the materially manifested.

At the same time, I think the reason for CAS's obscurity may be found in his world-weariness and his intellect's profound ability to go far beyond. He falls away from us, into the Abyss. Even his love poems use a cosmic perspective!
I don't believe there a has been any discussion about CAS on this forum for weeks, maybe months! (Talk of publishing, and new editions, yes. But that is a side issue.) His choosen path, the cosmic perspective, is just very difficult for people to follow into. I think he captures the fear of his own circumstance very well in The Chain of Aforgomon, in which a writer gradually falls out of the collective consciousness and memory, as he transfers into another dimension.
I don't think CAS will ever reach the wide masses. But he deserves a much higher status and fame as a fine Artist, among intelligent people. I hope the efforts of Scott Connors, and other editors and publishers, can help in this direction.




Change of subject:

Well, it is soon Midsummer's Eve, and I hope all Eldritchdarkers' will then take a moment to leave the hustle and bustle of your modern cities, go out into the wilderness and communicate with the spirits, and pay your due respects! (And remember, if your shallow ignorant materialistic democratic Government tells you to celeberate Midsummer on Friday, ignore them! Midsummer is on the day of the summer solstice.)

I completely disagree with your characterization of Keats' poetry, it has for quite a long time been recognized for the power and explicitness of its sensual imagery. Note the "pleasure thermometer" in "Endymion", the "silver snarling trumpets" in "The Eve of St. Agnes", the "burst Joy's grape against his palate" in "Ode to Melancholy", the many clear, concrete details given even in such a short poem as "La Belle Dame sans Merci", as well as countless other examples. The ethereal is indeed present, but Keats' later poetry carefully ties this to what can be seen, tasted, felt, smelt, and heard. The letters, on the other hand, tend to describe his intentions in more nebulous terms.

Jim

I agree with Jim. Given that Keats is well-known for his sensuous imagination, I was quite surprised to see Knygatin's characterization of Keats's works as seeming more abstract and tenuous. Indeed, Keats's sensuality is in part what made his poetry controversial during the poet's lifetime (See, for instance, Byron's caustic remark that Keats was "frigging his imagination"). Knygatin's remarks apply much more to Shelley's poetry than to Keats's, I think.

I have only read parts of Keats' poetry, and I am not sure from what time periods.

"Pleasure thermometer" sounds very abstract to me, although amusing and an interesting conceptual thought. "Silver snarling trumpets" is hardly a sharp objective observation, but more of a subjective and very personal interpretation, and evocative and energetic at that. "Burst Joy's grape against his palate" is not an observation of manifested reality either. It is an imaginative and sensual description of a certain sensation. And I have read La Belle Dame sans Merci; it is true that he mentions concrete objects, but they are only "mentioned", hardly described in realistically observed details, except for his own sensual valuation of them... and what is "She took me to her elfin grot,.."? "Elfin grot" doesn't give me defined and colored visuals of the place; only a vague dreamy notion.

I agree that he is a sensual describer and interpretator of imagery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Jun 09 | 02:25PM by Knygatin.

Of all the romantics, Keats is probably the one, to my mind, who most closely resembles CAS in his imagination -much in the same way that so much of Wm. Blake seems to prefigure/anticipate Jack Kirby. (Wasn't CAS in his youth called "The Keats of the West Coast", or some such thing?)

True, CAS has his Byronic poses. But it's hard, for example, to think of anything more Ashtonian than Keats's depiction of the Gigantocmachy in "The Fall of Hyperion", which reminds me greatly of CAS's own later poem about the Titans:

"Builded so high, it seem'd that filmed clouds
Might spread beneath, as o'er the stars of heaven;
So old the place was, I remember'd none
The like upon the earth: what I had seen
Of grey cathedrals, buttress'd walls, rent towers,
The superannuations of sunk realms,
Or Nature's rocks toil'd hard in waves and winds,
Seem'd but the failure of decrepit things
To that eternal domed monument."
(...)
"Turning from these with awe, once more I rais'd
My eyes to fathom the space every way;
The embossed roof, the silent massy range
Of columns north and south, ending in mist
Of nothing, then to eastward, where black gates
Were shut against the sunrise evermore.
Then to the west I look'd, and saw far off
An image, huge of feature as a cloud,
At level of whose feet an altar slept,
To be approach'd on either side by steps,
And marble balustrade, and patient travail
To count with toil the innumerable degrees."
(...)
".......'This temple, sad and lone,
'Is all spar'd from the thunder of a war
'Foughten long since by giant hierarchy
'Against rebellion: this old image here,
'Whose carved features wrinkled as he fell,
'Is Saturn's; I Moneta, left supreme
'Sole priestess of this desolation.'"
(...)
"..................Then Moneta's voice
Came brief upon mine ear: 'So Saturn sat
When he had lost his realms.' Whereon there grew
A power within me of enormous ken
To see as a god sees, and take the depth
Of things as nimbly as the outward eye
Can size and shape pervade."
(...)
".........His palace bright,
'Bastion'd with pyramids of glowing gold,
'And touch'd with shade of bronzed obelisks,
'Glares a blood red through all the thousand courts,
'Arches, and domes, and fiery galleries:
'And all its curtains of Aurorian clouds
'Flush angerly; when he would taste the wreaths
'Of incense breath'd aloft from sacred hills,
'Instead of sweets his ample palate takes
'Savour of poisonous brass and metals sick."
(...)
"..........................Mnemosyne
Was sitting on a square edg'd polish'd stone,
That in its lucid depth reflected pure
Her priestess garments. My quick eyes ran on
From stately nave to nave, from vault to vault,
Through bow'rs of fragrant and enwreathed light
And diamond paved lustrous long arcades."

Is The Players of Null-A by A.E. Van Vogt a good book? Colorful?
I have never read anything by Van Vogt.

There's nothing terribly original or surprising here in Gavin's mentioning of Keats, since Keats is the major Romantic poet whom CAS himself acknowledges most often in his published letters. Shelley would be a distant second in influence, I'd say.

For the rest, I don't see Blake as having had much of an effect on CAS, not even via his "prophetic books" (I doubt that the early 20th-Century American canon even included Blake among the major Romantics). Byronic influences would likely come primarily from what I'd call the "gnostic" poems (Manfred; Cain). Wordsworth wouldn't even enter the picture, I think, and Coleridge would do so only for a few of his "fantastic" works (e.g., "Kubla Khan" and "Christabel").

I'd add Thomas Lovell Beddoes as a primary source of inspiration from among the Romantic poets, even though Beddoes is considered a "minor" Romantic (due more to his fragmentary and erratic output, I should think, than to the quality of his work at its best). Beddoes's morbid imagination comes closer to CAS's than Keats's does, in my view.

As to van Vogt, all I have read of his work is Slans, which was dreary and superficial hackwork, in my opinion. It certainly did not inspire me to read anything else of his, so I'm sorry that I can't help with regard to the other title that you mention.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 4 Jul 09 | 04:27PM by Kyberean.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As to van Vogt, all I have read of his work is
> Slans, which was dreary and superficial hackwork,
> in my opinion.

I think you mean SLAN. While it is certainly hackwork, it is highly eccentric, inspired, visionary hackwork! I also have a suspicion the novel's theme---persecuted supermen!---would appeal mightily to Knygatin. I have tried some other things by Van Vogt, but so far have found nothing as entertaining as SLAN.

Jojo Lapin X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I think you mean SLAN. While it is certainly
> hackwork, it is highly eccentric, inspired,
> visionary hackwork! I also have a suspicion the
> novel's theme---persecuted supermen!---would
> appeal mightily to Knygatin. I have tried some
> other things by Van Vogt, but so far have found
> nothing as entertaining as SLAN.

I have heard something similar about The Players of Null-A. The main character is some kind of demigod who can manipulate reality.

Yes, I meant Slan. I am glad that the extra "s" did not cause too much confusion.

As for that book's merits, we'll have to agree to disagree, as I found it insipid and conventional, with an over-emphasis on "ekshun", and generally not worthy of anyone who is interested in the theme of the Superhuman on a deeper level. I agree that it is capable of providing light entertainment, though.

I can't tell whether Knygatin would prefer this, or not, but Stapeldon's Odd John is a far superior treatment of the Superhuman theme, and Beresford's Hampdenshire Wonder is itself a wonder. In no book that I have ever read is the sheer otherness of the Superhuman mutation so hauntingly evoked.

Anyway, though, de gustibus; I certainly see little point in arguing matters of taste!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 4 Jul 09 | 03:14PM by Kyberean.

I enjoy a supehuman theme, if it concerns manipulation of reality towards ecstasy and beauty or the bizarre. But not shallow ekshun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 4 Jul 09 | 12:16PM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I enjoy a supehuman theme, if it concerns
> manipulation of reality towards ecstasy and beauty
> or the bizarre. But not shallow ekshun.

For example, (if you allow me to dissolve the line between writing, and the written) as the superhuman Clark Ashton Smith shapes reality in The Red World of Polaris.

Kyberean Wrote:
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[snippage] I don't see Blake as
> having had much of an effect on CAS, not even via
> his "prophetic books" (I doubt that the early
> 20th-Century American canon even included Blake
> among the major Romantics). [snippage]

CAS did own a copy of the Oxford Edition of The Poetical Works of William Blake, edited by John Sampson, and published in 1913; his copy is dated "June 19th, 1915," so he received it after THE STAR-TREADER had been published. But I don't see a lot of Blake's influence on CAS either.

Scott

Knygatin:

The Hampdenshire Wonder definitely has very little of the "fantastic" in it, aside from the Superhuman title character, although the enigmatic drawing of the character, his oracular utterances, and others' reactions to him, I find quite fascinating.

Odd John's fantastic elements derive mainly from the variety of the Superhuman characters, as well as from the new technologies and new forms of art they explore in their "colony".


Scott:

Thanks for the additional information. I have no doubt that CAS appreciated Blake's visual artistry and visionary imagination, though I am guessing he may not have seen a lot of the former until somewhat later in life. It's interesting, however, that CAS read Blake relatively early, although, as you indicate, likely too late for Blake to have been a formative influence. I cannot, however, see Blake's Christianity--however heterodox--or the King James style of the prophetic books as having left much of a mark on CAS.

Likewise, I see Wordsworth as being in many ways the "anti-CAS" of the English Romantics, although I'd be very curious to know whether CAS ever read The Prelude, and, if so, then when.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Likewise, I see Wordsworth as being in many ways
> the "anti-CAS" of the English Romantics, although
> I'd be very curious to know whether CAS ever read
> The Prelude, and, if so, then when.

I like Wordsworth. He has basic foundation wisdom, and directs a stray mind towards beauty.
I have a thick 800 page collection of his poetical works, but can't find one of his most celebrated poems, The Ruined Cottage in it! I understand it was later included in The Excursion, but that it is not the same as the original.

This is a reply to several of the above - Please remember that Clark did not ever have a large personal library, and those he was able to acquire was usual by gift from people like the Sully's, or the Count's wife and her friends. He was a great admirer of Byron, in particular the satirical aspects of "epics" like "Don Juan" (pronounced "Joo-an" for Byron's purposes) and "Thoughts on a College Examination" - above all remember that Clark, by the time he was 14 or 15, had read the entire Carnegie library including the Brittanica, Americana, and the "Hernia Edition" of Webster - I can assure you he had read all of Wordsworth - He liked Blake well enough, and could usually quote almost anything he had ever read with little effort -- he liked Swift better, again, for the satire, as in the section of Gulliver where he meets the highly advanced Horse civilization who have to put up with the nasty "Yahoos" (people") who swing from the branches throwing excrement about (this section is largely expurgated from the children's versions of Gulliver -

Little gift to you all - a poem I learned years ago which I think is Henry Reid if memory serves -

"My aged Aunt,
Miss Wilkinson
(whose mother was a Lamb)
Met Wordsworth once, and Coleridge too
One morning in her pram.
Birdlike the bard stooped over her,
Like fledgling in a nest --
And Wordsworth said,"Thou Harmless Babe!"
(and Coleridge was impressed!)
The little thing looked up at them,
And softly murmured -- cooo
William was then aged sixty-four,
And Samuel, sixty-tw0.

Martinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with walrus: Lovecraft Remembered is a
> great book, and W. Paul Cook's memoir in
> particular makes it worth buying. I also remember
> nice memoirs by Donald Wandrei, Rheinhart Kleiner,
> E. A. Edkins, and Dorothy C. Walter. They
> definitely make HPL come alive.


I am reading Lovecraft Remembered. Wonderful book. These first-hand accounts carry me back in time to old Providence, to see gentleman Lovecraft walking about, sitting in the same room, hearing his voice, observing his personality traits, clothing. I like his company.
I have only read the first few memoirs so far, but each one alone is worth the price of the book. And it has a nice cover by artist J. C. Eckhardt, who has a distinct feeling for the atmosphere of Lovecraft's New England.

I only miss one thing in my biographical excursions. Are there any maps of Lovecraft's and CAS's apartments and houses available anywhere, with room measurements and planning? From Dr. Farmer's colorful descriptions, I have a general picture of Clark's house, to which I am very grateful.

Knygatin Wrote:

> I only miss one thing in my biographical
> excursions. Are there any maps of Lovecraft's and
> CAS's apartments and houses available anywhere,
> with room measurements and planning? From Dr.
> Farmer's colorful descriptions, I have a general
> picture of Clark's house, to which I am very
> grateful.


I don't know if there are any with measurements, but there are some sketches of some of HPL's rooms (from letters he wrote) in Joshi's H. P. Lovecraft: A Life. There is also at least one photograph of his study (taken by Barlow, if I recall correctly) in Marginalia... though I no longer have a copy of the book, and could not refer you to the exact facing page(s). Unfortunately, I have no idea about any such of Smith's lodgings (though I, too, would be grateful to be pointed in the proper direction)....

Yes, there are two photos of HPL's study in Marginalia, plus a floor plan and wall plan of his study (very difficult to decipher).

Perhaps the Municipal Archives of Providence have illustrated floor plans of all architecture built in the city.

Floor plans are very hard to come by as a rule because things like furniture arrangement chanages over time. Just the bare-bones room which one might find in architectural plans don't tell us all that much. It's where the desk was and the bookcase and the easy chair which gives us the feel for the place and the person. We're lucky with HPL because he did sketch his room and there seem to be photos.

There is a real estate atlas for Providence dated 1937 published by Hopkins which shows the plots of land and the buildings, but that doesn't show what's in the houses. For Smith, there may be older county maps showing some things. I don't know if any aerial photography was flown for either the Providence area or the Auburn area for the proper time periods, but there should be such and satellite imagery for the present.

JBP

Martinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Harry Brobst celebrated his 100th birthday in
> February -- he lived in Providence in the 1930s,
> visited HPL in the hospital during his final days,
> and attended his funeral.

I just learned that Harry Brobst passed away on January 13, almost 101 years old.