This question is likely best answered by Scott, Ron, or Calonlan, but anyone who is knowledgeable should certainly feel free to reply.

What were CAS's working methods, generally, and what sort of notebooks did he keep? Of course, we all know about the famous Black Book, but did CAS keep other notebooks, or have other methods of logging his work or ideas?

I am specifically interested in his procedures for composing poetry. Did he keep a notebook, or notebooks? Are there many different manuscripts of the poems extant, including variants? Did he prepare his drafts in longhand, or on the typewriter? Did he study any secondary sources about poetic form, or simply learn by imitation?

Any answers would be most appreciated.

Of the holographs of Poems which I have owned - the majority flowed very much like Mozart - in the head first, then direct to the paper - though many had early versions,(extant), which underwent some revision later -
The stories flowed directly from the mind to the paper, with corrections being composed internally - final copies for the publisher were transferred to typewritten page, but the holographs show very little correction, and the story was intact - revisions were more often made by the publisher, or some changes were forced upon Clark much to his disgruntlement - but "a penny a word, is a penny a word". To my recollection, in some poems, where changes were made, it was as often as not, an entire stanza that would be re-worked. I know of no note-books, or "idea journals" -- In "Sword" you can see very early examples of stories that were never finished - yet there they are, on that cheap newsprint, rolling right along, and then-- just stop.
When Clark decided it wasn't going anywhere, he just dropped it- Though, of course, the seed of many ideas, phrases, situations etc - reappear often in some other context - His great gift was the abliity to use what appeared to others as solitude, to populate his mind with gleanings from journeys we lesser beings never take, but vicariously marvel at his natheless.

The "flow" that you mention is interesting, especially since so many of CAS's pieces appear to have "a whiff of the lamp" about them.

With respect to the (early) poetry, in particular, we know that Sterling suggested many revisions that CAS incorporated into his work. It is interesting, too, that CAS wanted or needed a commonplace book for idea for his fictional work, but did not desire or require one for the writing of poetry.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.

Eventually I will be getting some MS's of Clarks poems to add to my collection. They still exist because I have seen them and talked with collectors. Just do a Google search. It will take a very long time to find but ultimately you will stumble across it. Email me if you want off site and I will help.

Have a bright and illuminating day.

Thanks very much for the offer!

Calonlan:

Can you add any notes regarding CAS's education as a poet? Were there any treatises or the like that he used, for instance? Did her learn about imagery and form primarily from reading? How much tutelage did Sterling offer?

Clark was truly self-educated, but his parents were avid readers, and Clark was reading before he got to school.
If you look in "Sword", you will find my notes on some of his very early poetry - I call one of them as inspired by Hallmark - Clark would have been exposed to the sentimental stuff in the magazines his mother sold - basic verse - he acquired a sense of form almost by osmosis - when you read Longfellow, Wordsworth, Coleridge, et al, basic rythymic structure becomes evident - Clark also loved the Rubaiyat, and the sonnets of Shakespeare - he evidently picked up the concept of rhyme scheme from his first exposure, and then the possible variations from his wider reading - the influence of his English Dad, and southern belle mom cannot be underestimated - Sterling gave him a few tweaks, but Sterling was mostly basking in the glow of admiration radiated from a talented young fan, though, quite exceptionally, he seemed intent on not dominating Clark's burgeoning style - fundamentally however, Clark was an authentic "original". Of course, the strenght of Poe's work, and his play with alliterative experiments like "The Bells" were powerfully influential - Clark memorized these works and would wander about reciting them in his "piping treble" as he called it pretending to be the great bells -
more later, gotta go.

Many thanks for this most interesting information. By all means, feel free to offer more. I am always curious as to how poets begin, what shapes them, and much data are needed, in CAS's case.

As an aside, I wrote my first poem at the age of eight. It's a weird mix of iambs and anapests, in aa rhyme. I have no idea how I derived the form!

The rhythym you describe is, I believe very close to the pregnant heartbeat, mixed with the fetal -- if you were nursed by your mother, and in my day (though not myself) nursing to age 5 was common, I believe that body rhythums inhere -- some of my own earliest games with words (not to dignify it with the hallowed name) are of similar structure - I have pondered this matter before but not seen anyone else pose the subject - it is rare for a child not to fall into the "roses are red..."silliness.
Very interenting indeed. Clark was very sensitive to the rhythms of nature and life - while he studied previous writers intensely, and greatlly admired the Spenserian Stanza (though I don't recall his attempting it), he was keenly aware of the onomotopoetic "itch" all poets feel.
On one occasion, we were discussing various ideas on the Nature of divine, in that context, and I pronounced the Hebrew tetragram, commonly spelled JHVH going backwards from the Hebrew, as Yah-huh-veh, and Clark immediately said, "that's thunder!" - That comment set me on a course of thought which after all these years is yet convinced that he was right - the earliest names of many of the ancient deities is a representation of what is often "his voice" - the sound of thunder - "he speaks on the mountain" -- One of the things I have admired about Clark's work has been that, while using the rich Latinized vocabulary of the 19th century often, he nevertheless seemed able to retain the essential rhythms of ENGLISH - by that I mean, anglo-saxon power - "beornas gearwe an stefan stigan...", Hopkins -"brute beauty and act, or air, pride, plume, here buckle...", Thomas - "brandy and ripe in my bright base prime... CAS, - "The sunset gonfalons are furled..." or, "...where time shall have none other pendulum that the remembered pulsings of thy heart." The pulse, plus the elegance - remarkable.

Your theory about the rhythms employed in children's verse, and their relation to childhood nursing, is very interesting. I'd reproduce my childhood poem for a further confirming analysis, but this isn't the place for that!

Likewise, the idea of onomatopoeia and its relation to fundamental aspects of mythopoesis is intriguing. As you know, onomatopoeia has long played a role in magical utterance and incantation (so, by the way, have linguistic corruptions, such as the mutation of hoc est corpus into hocus pocus). If I recall correctly, Donald Sidney-Fryer made much of CAS's habit of "chanting", or reading, his tales aloud as CAS worked on them. I wonder whether CAS did the same with his poetry. Also as I recall, you have recounted previously a fondness for dramatic readings on CAS's part, in which you participated.

The remarks about mingling the Anglo-Saxon and the latinate remind me of observations that CAS made in a letter to Sackett, I believe, in which CAS cited from memory Strachey's article on Sir Thomas Browne. In that letter, CAS stated his preference for mingling Latin and Anglo-Saxon rhythms. In this regard, I mention the following not because it is of interest in itself, but because it reflects my personal experience. I have noticed that, when I write a first draft of a poem, there is a preference for the multi-syllabic and the latinate. Therefore, when I revise, I usually do so with an eye toward trimming the syllabification and substituting shorter, stronger Anglo-Saxon derived words. The mix makes for much better and more interesting poetry, I think.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Likewise, the idea of onomatopoeia and its
> relation to fundamental aspects of mythopoesis is
> intriguing. As you know, onomatopoeia has long
> played a role in magical utterance and incantation
> (so, by the way, have linguistic corruptions, such
> as the mutation of hoc est corpus into hocus
> pocus). If I recall correctly, Donald Sidney-Fryer
> made much of CAS's habit of "chanting", or
> reading, his tales aloud as CAS worked on them. I
> wonder whether CAS did the same with his poetry.
> Also as I recall, you have recounted previously a
> fondness for dramatic readings on CAS's part, in
> which you participated.

"Hocus pocus" might be a bad example, since it probably started out as a nonsense phrase rather than deriving from corrupted Latin.

Priscian:

You're right that the Latin derivation is not conclusive, but there's no better evidence for any of the alternatives claiming it's mere nonsense, either. In your favor, the OED seems to lean toward the "nonsense" camp. Anyway, the point is clear enough, I hope, regardless.

It is a fascinating trail to follow indeed - In just re-reading my entry, I was horrified at the number typos, but haste has become my nurse-maid regrettably - there is in the powerful rhythms of AS, a kind of newral memory of tribal drums, and primordial ceremonies - that pulse that throbs with the "flight or fight" adrenal impulse that is deep within even our most civilized breasts, that "thin veneer of civilization" that Tarzan so easily shed in the Burroughs books - I love it.

calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a fascinating trail to follow indeed - In
> just re-reading my entry, I was horrified at the
> number typos, but haste has become my nurse-maid
> regrettably - there is in the powerful rhythms of
> AS, a kind of newral memory of tribal drums, and
> primordial ceremonies - that pulse that throbs
> with the "flight or fight" adrenal impulse that is
> deep within even our most civilized breasts, that
> "thin veneer of civilization" that Tarzan so
> easily shed in the Burroughs books - I love it.

kindly correct the spelling of "neural" egad! - my age just last monday toppled into its 7th decade and all at once I losing it!

calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my
> age just last monday toppled into its 7th decade
> and all at once I losing it!

Congratulations on turning 61! (I think.)

Thanks, but it is 71 --

and, dear friends, putting on my cap as licensed and practicing Philologist - Hoc est Corpus, if you can envision the abysmal education most Priests had in the Middle Ages, and the mumbling through mass common to many who had no idea what any of it meant, is to all of us in the business undoubtedly the source of Hocus Pocus -
Even as "Abera Kedabra" in the Kabala, became "abracadabra", which does strange things if you write in in a vertical triange, indenting one letter at a time - ie, the "a" in the second line begins under the "b" of the first line and so on - (light refrain from "Twilight Zone" in the background please) - those practicing witchcraft in older times commonly wanted words of "power", and since the simple assumed the words spoken were responsible for the wine and bread becoming in fact the body and blood of Christ, they were quickly adapted - this fact is attested in many ancient sources - witness also the persistence of the mythology regarding the aversion of vampires (et al) to Holy Water, the cross, consecrated ground, and of course, consecrated bread, which denied them their coffin is placed therein - - an amusing perpetuation of superstitious nonsense, but a fact, natheless.

Although it's a minor point in the scheme of the thread, thanks for the support regarding the derivation of hocus pocus. I find the OED's dogmatic obtuseness on the subject to be somewhat surprising. Then again, such an attitude fits perfectly wih descriptive linguists' adolescent rebellion against "authority", especially when said authority is from the 18th Century (witness the abuse that continues to pour upon the head of poor Bishop Lowth!).


P.S. I have some tangential questions about the Anglo-Saxon language that I'd like to ask you, Calonlan, but these are obviously not suitable for this forum. Is your contact information here current, or might we reach you in some other way?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19 Oct 09 | 09:03AM by Kyberean.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Although it's a minor point in the scheme of the
> thread, thanks for the support regarding the
> derivation of hocus pocus. I find the OED's
> dogmatic obtuseness on the subject to be somewhat
> surprising. Then again, such an attitude fits
> perfectly wih descriptive linguists' adolescent
> rebellion against "authority", especially when
> said authority is from the 18th Century (witness
> the abuse that continues to pour upon the head of
> poor Bishop Lowth!).
>
>
> P.S. I have some tangential questions about the
> Anglo-Saxon language that I'd like to ask you,
> Calonlan, but these are obviously not suitable for
> this forum. Is your contact information here
> current, or might we reach you in some other way?


you may indeed write by email - so far no one on the Forum has had difficulty reaching me - I have, by the way, a wonderful CD of a young man accompanying himself bardlike in a complete (yes the whole thing!) performance of Beowulf - there are also some interviews with him and Scholars on the disc as well - the only drawback is that i would have costumed him - minor point. Be safe from Grendal "scrithan sceadugenga" this halloween ("dark shadow-goer")

Quote:

Be safe from Grendal "scrithan sceadugenga" this halloween

Thank you. I'll be in contact via the e-mail address on file for you here. In the interim, same to you, regarding the above warning, and be ware of the mearc-stapa, as well!

Calonlan:

The e-mail address you have on file under your screen name here does not work--at least, not for me, as the e-mail regarding Anglo-Saxon that I just sent was bounced back as undeliverable. Please let me know of an alternative e-mail address. Thanks.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Calonlan:
>
> The e-mail address you have on file under your
> screen name here does not work--at least, not for
> me, as the e-mail regarding Anglo-Saxon that I
> just sent was bounced back as undeliverable.
> Please let me know of an alternative e-mail
> address. Thanks.


I find it odd that that email doesn't work, although I have been on here so long it could go back to my first days on the computer - use remraf3@sbcglobal.net