Hello,

Does anybody know if there is a complete list of HORROR stories by William Hope Hodgson?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Feb 19 | 01:08PM by Minicthulhu.

Hmmm. I can't do a complete list. I can only contribute. But since no-one else has said anything, I might as well get it started.

Novels (all are horror).
- The House on the Borderland
- The Ghost Pirates
- The Boats of the 'Glen Carrig'
- The Night Land, abridged as A Dream of X.

Carnacki Stories. (Rather comic; none too horrific):
- "The Gateway of the Monster"
- "The House Among the Laurels"
- "The Whistling Room"
- "The Horse of the Invisible"
- "The Searcher of the End House"
- "The Thing Invisible"
Also there are 3 posthumous Carnacki tales which I have not read: "The Haunted Jarvee", "The Find", and "The Hog".

Nautical "Creature Horror"
- "A Tropical Horror"
- "From the Tideless Sea", Parts I and II (Part II having various titles such as "Further News of the 'Homebird'").
- "A Voice in the Night"
- "The Stone Ship" a/k/a "The Mystery of the Ship in the Night"
- "The Thing in the Weeds"
- "The Finding of the Graiken"
- "The Mystery of the Derelict"
- "The Derelict" (this is an entirely separate story from the prior entry).

Nautical stories that are a bit weird.
- "The Shamraken Homeward-Bounder";
- "The Sea Horses".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Mar 19 | 12:09PM by Platypus.

Thanks a lot.

Baumoff Explosive
The Habitants Of Middle Islet
The Haunting Of Lady Shannon
The Haunted Pampero
The Riven Night
A Timely Escape

The stories mentioned above may be classified as horror/fantasy/weird tales as well.

I've read none of those and will have to try to track them down.

Another than I have not read is:

- "The Voice in the Dawn" (1920); of which "The Call in the Dawn" (1967) is apparently a close variant. Both are posthumous. (I'm guessing that the 1967 version was motivated more by copyright renewal considerations than by any inadequacies in the 1920 version). It is classified among his "Sargasso Sea Stories", which would presumably make it "horror". Apparently it should not be confused with "A Voice in the Night", which I listed above, and which is not a Sargasso Sea Story.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 8 Mar 19 | 05:32PM by Platypus.

"Out of the Storm"
"Demons of the Sea"
"The Island of the Ud" is nightmarish, very horrible.

Well, I would not say "Out of the Storm" is a horror story, though it is pretty haunting. It is the same king of tale like "Through the Vortex fo a Cyclone" which also deals with a detailed description of natural forces (which are depicted as a monster, in a way). I have never read "The Island of Ud" and "The Voice in the Dawn" so I must give them a try.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never read "The
> Island of Ud" and ...
> must give them a try.


Just don't form too high expectations out of my description. That will surely ruin it. ;)

Here's my second attempt at a list. Note however, that it includes much material that I have not read. Since I don't believe in giving away endings, it also may include stories that have "Scooby Doo" endings (sorry).

NOVELS (all are horror).

- THE HOUSE ON THE BORDERLAND (1908)
- THE BOATS OF THE "GLEN CARRIG" (1907) (Nautical)
- THE GHOST PIRATES (1909) (Nautical)
- THE NIGHT LAND (1912) abridged as A DREAM OF X (1912)

AUTHORIZED COLLECTIONS

- CARNACKI, THE GHOST FINDER (1910). A set of 6 tales featuring Carnacki the paranormal detective. Contents are:
---- "The Gateway of the Monster" (1910)
---- "The House Among the Laurels" (1910)
---- "The Whistling Room" (1910)
---- "The Searcher of the End House" (1910)
---- "The Thing Invisible" (1910)

- MEN OF THE DEEP WATERS (1914). Nautical tales. Not everything in this volume is horror, but most stories have some element of horror. Horror highlights include:
---- "From the Tideless Sea" (1914) consisting of "From the Tideless Sea (1906) and its sequel "More News of the 'Homebird'" (1908)
---- "The Derelict" (1912)
---- "The Mystery of the Derelict" (1907)
---- "The Voice in the Night" (1907)
Also perhaps worth mentioning are for horror/weird elements are:
---- "The Sea Horses" (1913)
---- "Through the Vortex of a Cyclone" (1907). This one is perhaps not even fiction.
---- "The 'Shamraken' Homeward-Bounder" (1914) a/k/a "Homeward Bound" (1908). This is best read in the context of other stories in the collection. Otherwise certain aspects might be overlooked by the reader.

THE LUCK OF THE STRONG (1916): I have not read most of this collection. I understand it is mostly nautical tales, but with less of a horror theme. However, some stories may play with fantastic themes:
---- "The Stone Ship" (1916) revised/expanded from "The Mystery of the Ship in the Night" (1914). This fits well-enough into any nautical horror themed collection.
---- "The Island of the Ud" (1912). I have not read this one. Probably has more of an adventure feel than a horror feel. But I understand it may have fantastic themes..

Note: I also read CAPTAIN GAULT (1917). I did not care for these stories, and none of them are horror.

STORIES PUBLISHED, BUT UNCOLLECTED, DURING AUTHOR'S LIFE:
- "The Goddess of Death" (1904): I think I read it, but it left little impression.
- "A Tropical Horror (1905) (Nautical). This one gets little attention, but I liked it.
- "The Valley of Lost Children" (1906): I have not read it. Not exactly horror, I'm told; but maybe a bit weird.
- "The Terror of the Water-Tank" (1907): I haven't read it.
- "Out of the Storm" (1909): I've not read it; only a description that makes it sound a bit weird.
- "The Mystery of the Water-Logged Ship (1911): I haven't read it.
- "The Albatross" (1911). I have not read it, but I've been told it "get's creepy".
- "The Thing in the Weeds" (1913) (Nautical). Sargasso sea.
- "The Finding of the Graiken" (1913) (Nautical). Sargasso sea.
- "The Haunted 'Pampero'" (1914) (Nautical). I haven't read it.

STORIES POSTHUMOUSLY PUBLISHED BY THE AUTHOR'S WIDOW
- "The Baumoff Explosive" (1919): Definitely horror, though IMHO it carries less conviction than his nautical efforts or his novels. A/k/a "Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani".
- "Old Golly" (1919): Haven't read it.
- "The Voice in the Dawn" (1920) a/k/a "The Call in the Dawn" (1963) is classified among the Sargasso Sea Stories, which should make it nautical horror. I have not read it.
- "A Timely Escape" (1922): Haven't read it.
- "Demons of the Sea" (1923): Haven't read it.
- "The Haunted "Jarvee" (1929) A nautical Carnacki tale. I have not read it.

SUPER-POSTHUMOUS: By now, the widow is dead, and perhaps we should be a little skeptical of new material that appears:
- "The Find" (1947): A Carnacki tale, edited by August Derleth. I haven't read it.
- "The Hog (1947): A Carnacki tale, edited by August Derleth. I haven't read it.
- "The Habitants of Middle Islet" (1962): Derleth edited this one too. I haven't read it.
- "The Phantom Ship" (1973) a/k/a "The Silent Ship". Haven't read it. I understand it is a sort of alternate ending to THE GHOST PIRATES.
- "The Riven Night" (1973). Haven't read it.
- "The Haunting of the Lady Shannon" (1975). Haven't read it.
- "The Room of Fear" (1996). Haven't read it.

OTHER
- "The Weed Men" is apparently just an except from THE BOATS OF THE "GLEN CARRIG'.
- "The Noise in the Night" is apparently just an excerpt from THE HOUSE ON THE BORDERLAND. (Not to be confused with "The Voice in the Night"; or with "The Voice in the Dawn" a/k/a "The Call in the Dawn").
- "The Ghosts of the Glen Doon" (1911): I have not read it, but understand from someone's description that it might not be horror, despite the title.
- "The Dumpley Acrostics": A fragment that was expanded into "The Find"; otherwise apparently not horror. I have not read it.
- "The Crew of the Lancing" is apparently an alternate title of something, but I have conflicting information. It is either "The Phantom Ship" a/k/a "The Silent Ship"; or "Demons of the Sea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10 Mar 19 | 07:02PM by Platypus.

Thanks a lot for the list.

By the way, I can see you have not read "The Terror Of The Water-Tank" which is, in my humble opinion, one of the best stories by WHH. One can get it here.

[nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 Mar 19 | 08:31AM by Minicthulhu.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> - CARNACKI, THE GHOST FINDER (1910). A set of 6
> tales featuring Carnacki the paranormal detective.
> Contents are:
> ---- "The Gateway of the Monster" (1910)
> ---- "The House Among the Laurels" (1910)
> ---- "The Whistling Room" (1910)
> ---- "The Searcher of the End House" (1910)
> ---- "The Thing Invisible" (1910)

Ack! I obviously cannot count to six. I left out:

---- "The Horse of the Invisible" (1910)

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, I can see you have not read "The
> Terror Of The Water-Tank" which is, in my humble
> opinion, one of the best stories by WHH. One can
> get it here.
>
> [nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com]
> sa-pdfs/TheTerrorOfTheWaterTankByWilliamHopeHodgso
> nWTWinter1973.pdf

Thank you!

You are welcome. And this site has "The Stone Ship" which is also, unlike the Sargasso sea stories or Carnacki stories, hard to get on the internet.

[www.vaultofghastlytales.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11 Mar 19 | 11:29AM by Minicthulhu.

I just read 2 posthumous stories, "Demons of the Sea" (1923) and "The Haunted Jarvee" (1929) on Wikisource. I enjoyed them both.

My initial reaction to "The Haunted Jarvee" was disappointment. It seemed, at first, like a clumsy mash-up of CARNACKI and THE GHOST PIRATES. But the story goes its own way after Carnacki (who is perhaps not the most responsible fellow in the world) aggravates the situation through one of his occult/scientific experiments. When the story ended, I felt I had been successfully amused.

For me, "The Haunted Jarvee" is one of the best nautical stories by W.H.Hodgson, along with "The Derelict", "From The Tideless Seas" and "The Voice In the Night". "Through The Vortex Of A Cyclone" is also a great marine story, though it is not a horror one. What I do not like about Hodgson´s sea tales is they are very stereotyped. (A vessel sets sail, then there is a storm, suddenly they aboard her find themselves in the vicinity of an island, a derelict or a wreck, then they go to search it etc. etc.). Also the monsters are very convential and repetitive (chiefly those monstrous crabs and octopuses get on nerves)
Mr. Hodgson should have been more creative in this respect. :-)

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me, "The Haunted Jarvee" is one of the best
> nautical stories by W.H.Hodgson, along with "The
> Derelict", ... What I do not like about Hodgson´s
> sea tales is they are very stereotyped. ... the monsters are very
> convential and repetitive (chiefly those monstrous
> crabs and octopuses get on nerves)
> Mr. Hodgson should have been more creative in this
> respect. :-)


Oh, I don't know about that, ... to some extent, yes, ... but the fungoid growth in "The Derelict" is a great, and memorable "monster" (forever stuck in my mind). And I assume you have read The Boats of the "Glen Carrig", ... quite original.

Generally, I think American writers are more creative with monsters than English writers, who more tend to re-use, nurse and polish their hereditary traditions. I guess it is because of the difference in mental perspective between the new frontier and the Old country.
And, not to go too much off-topic, I'd still like to briefly get back to what Sawfish said in the other thread, about Lovecraft's weird fantasy creations being like science fiction. Yes, a richly imaginative science fantasy (same for the other Weird Tales writers of the era, and A. Merritt), and the audiences accepted these wild excursions as convincing and believable, ... before the event of satellites and every square inch of the World being geographically mapped, quickly developing technology and rational scientific thinking, and with that, the loss of innocence. Before the satellite, we still were spiritually living more or less in medieval times (looking at early school Atlases). But I think that loss of innocence is an illusion, we have been fooled by science, slaves under their institution established authority, to believe and smugly behave like everything around us is now under rational observance and intellectual control. It is just idiotic. There is still room for the richly supernatural, for ghosts and "Cthulhus", if only our minds let go of their temporary collective rigidity and become more flexible. Lovecraft's tales are still appealing today (in spite of ourselves), partly because of the mental conviction they were written under. But otherwise there is a prudence and unhealthy obsession with scientifically correct realism today instead of the imaginary. When imaginary it is often tainted with self-irony, because no one wants to be seen as a genuine fantasist in a materialistically oriented society.

I downloaded "The Haunted Jarvee", which is not included in my small collection of Hodgson books, and look forward to reading it. It is annoying, I think, that most online texts are presented with blank space in-between every paragraph, even though the author did not write it like that. It fragments the reading experience. But it does unfortunately seem to have become accepted procedure today, and the new norm. Space between paragraphs should only be in those places where the author intended it, making a brief narrative stall before a change of scene. Otherwise, if this is not respected, the rhythm and time is distorted.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me, "The Haunted Jarvee" is one of the best
> nautical stories by W.H.Hodgson, along with "The
> Derelict", "From The Tideless Seas" and "The Voice
> In the Night". "Through The Vortex Of A Cyclone"
> is also a great marine story, though it is not a
> horror one. What I do not like about Hodgson´s
> sea tales is they are very stereotyped. (A vessel
> sets sail, then there is a storm, suddenly they
> aboard her find themselves in the vicinity of an
> island, a derelict or a wreck, then they go to
> search it etc. etc.). Also the monsters are very
> conventionial and repetitive (chiefly those monstrous
> crabs and octopuses get on nerves)
> Mr. Hodgson should have been more creative in this
> respect. :-)

Well, to each his own. Maybe I'm just a small boy at heart. But some of the elements of which you complain are the elements of which I can barely get enough. To my mind, it does not hurt the sargasso sea stories that the sargasso sea is a reasonably similar place (with modest twists) every time it is encountered. It just makes the place seem more real. Stories featuring crabs and seaweed can be like stories about people. The situations and challenges faced can vary sufficiently each time.

Ships repeatedly encountering storms, monsters, islands, derelicts or wrecks, in a nautical horror tale, is to me rather like Star Trek repeatedly beginning with the Enterprise arriving on a new planet. The appeal of such stories is that you never know what you are going to find on the derelict, island, or planet.

I just read "The Find" (1947). It is not horror. At least, Carnacki himself is the only remote connection to horror or the supernatural. And I suspect it was probably Derleth who added Carnacki.

"The Find" is one of the worst stories by Hodgson I ever read. No suspense, no horror, simply nothing. An empty shell ... But give a try to "The Hog". Though you must get over what we were discussing in the previous posts - the almost ridiculous monster in it. But it is an interesting story from a certain point of view.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Find" is one of the worst stories by Hodgson
> I ever read. No suspense, no horror, simply
> nothing. An empty shell ... But give a try to "The
> Hog". Though you must get over what we were
> discussing in the previous posts - the almost
> ridiculous monster in it. But it is an interesting
> story from a certain point of view.


I was able to find "The Hog" on archive.org, in a 1947 copy of Weird Tales. It is not bad. However, having read it, I am quite certain that Hodgson did not write it.

Apart from other reasons, the quotations from the Sigsand Manuscript give it away. The Sigsand Ms. (in the original Carnacki stories) is apparently supposed to be 14th century English. Hodgson modeled his Sigsand Ms. quotations on Chaucer (though he did not do much more than deliberately mis-spell English in a faux-Chaucerian way). But the writer of "The Hog" just replaces "the" with "ye", which is a different (and in this context, far less authentic) approach to fake archaism.

"The reason for that is the fact that this edition contained three stories that had not been included in the previous Carnacki collections of 1913 or 1921. These three stories were acquired by Derleth through H. C. Koenig (who likely had gotten them originally from Hodgson’s family). The most powerful and popular Carnacki story, “The Hog”, was one of these three stories. This means that Lovecraft likely never read this story despite the fact that it echoes many of the themes and effects Lovecraft himself used in his fiction."

[williamhopehodgson.wordpress.com]

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The reason for that is the fact that this edition
> contained three stories that had not been included
> in the previous Carnacki collections of 1913 or
> 1921. These three stories were acquired by
> Derleth through H. C. Koenig (who likely had
> gotten them originally from Hodgson’s family).
> The most powerful and popular Carnacki story,
> “The Hog”, was one of these three stories.
> This means that Lovecraft likely never read this
> story despite the fact that it echoes many of the
> themes and effects Lovecraft himself used in his
> fiction."
>
> [williamhopehodgson.wordpress.com]
> th/

Well, somebody wrote the thing between 1918 and 1947. I don't know if it was Derleth, or if it was Koenig, or if it was whoever Koenig got it from. But it wasn't Hodgson.

Even without the Sigsand Ms "ye" gaffe, I would find it almost impossible to believe that Hodgson died in 1918 with no less than 3 unpublished Carnacki manuscripts in his drawer, all of which are mashups of his previous work. One such story I could maybe believe. But if there was a demand for Carnacki stories, why not publish? And if there was no demand, why write three and throw them in the drawer?

Interest in Carnacki would not have revived until after the war. I have no doubt Hodgson would have responded to the demand, and written more stories then, had he been still alive. But he wasn't

The Carnacki stories were republished in 1947. But the 6 original stories were all public domain by then (or close to it). The publisher would have needed new material in order to protect its investment.

But I'm not sure I can identify Lovecraftian themes in "The Hog" that were not found in the original Carnacki stories.

Re: "The Hog" and other Carnacki stories

Platypus wrote:

>Well, somebody wrote the thing between 1918 and 1947. I don't know if it was Derleth, or if it was Koenig, or if it was whoever Koenig got it from. But it wasn't Hodgson.

I wish such uninformed speculation could be dropped. The truth is that 1) Hodgson's own manuscript survives (I've held it in my hands). 2) There is contemporary evidence, in Hodgson's own writing logs (held in the Eaton Collection at UC Riverside), that the story was offered for sale in 1917. (It presumably didn't sell to a magazine because it's too long for most magazines.) 3) There is considerable evidence in the latter of Hodgson's sister Lissie and H.C. Koenig and Derleth that the manuscript was sent by Lissie to Koenig, who then sent it to Derleth, who paid Lissie for the publicaiton in Werid Tales and in the 1947 Carnacki book. 4) Lots of Hodgson stories didn't sell to magazines in his lifetime. That's where the contents of the three Moskowitz-edited collections come from, published in the 70s-90s. 5) The idea that some usage in a manuscript differs from that found in a copyedited and published story means nothing.

Douglas A. Anderson Wrote:
> I wish such uninformed speculation could be
> dropped.

Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware. The uninformed public has the right to be skeptical when people try to sell us stuff, even when the salesman claims to have inside knowledge about the excellence and bona fides of the product.

I am only a member of the public. And you (apparently) are a salesman. So don't get all high and mighty with me. You may have inside knowledge. But I am not required to trust you. And if you try to bully or talk down to me, I am ESPECIALLY not going to trust you.

> The truth is that 1) Hodgson's own
> manuscript survives (I've held it in my hands).

I'm sure that a manuscript exists. It is even possible that various people, perhaps even you, have held it in their hands. I just don't think Hodgson wrote it.

> 2)
> There is contemporary evidence, in Hodgson's own
> writing logs (held in the Eaton Collection at UC
> Riverside), that the story was offered for sale in
> 1917.

And what exactly is this contemporary evidence? What exactly does Hodgson say in these logs?

> (It presumably didn't sell to a magazine
> because it's too long for most magazines.)

Presumably? You're not going to convince me with flights of fancy.

For whatever reason, Hodgson did not sell ANY weird tales during the war.

Nor have you presented any evidence of the nature, content, summary, or title of the alleged story that allegedly got rejected.

> 3)
> There is considerable evidence in the latter of
> Hodgson's sister Lissie and H.C. Koenig and
> Derleth that the manuscript was sent by Lissie to
> Koenig, who then sent it to Derleth, who paid
> Lissie for the publicaiton in Werid Tales and in
> the 1947 Carnacki book.

You don't exactly describe this evidence. You just say it is "considerable". Like a salesman selling a product.

Lissie may have a financial interest in the project. You even say she got paid? But regardless of how much Lissie got paid, you have presented no evidence that Lissie ever vouched for the authenticity of the manuscript, or was even capable of doing so.

> 4) Lots of Hodgson stories
> didn't sell to magazines in his lifetime. That's
> where the contents of the three Moskowitz-edited
> collections come from, published in the 70s-90s.

Some of that might be genuine. Especially the uninteresting unpublishable fragments that nobody deemed worth publishing before. Any other stuff we should be skeptical of. But the only actual opinions I have ventured are about "The Find" and "The Hog", both of which I have now read, and neither of which are likely to be genuine, in my opinion.

> 5) The idea that some usage in a manuscript
> differs from that found in a copyedited and
> published story means nothing.

That was not MY idea. That is apparently YOUR idea. And you have presented no evidence that the usage in the Ms differs from the copy-edited and published story. The only claim you made is that you held the Ms. in your hands.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 17 Mar 19 | 05:05PM by Platypus.

For what it's worth, Plat, you haven't provided any evidence of your assertion aside from a gut-level feeling that it couldn't possibly be from Hodgson. While I'd love to see an academic article on the subject, I find your effort at point-counterpoint disingenuous. There's plenty of writers that have sat on stories, for any number of different reasons, not all of them rational (cf. H. P. Lovecraft and "The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath.") Unless you've got proof that Hodgson didn't write the thing, you don't have any strong arguments aside from your gut.

Ancient History Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For what it's worth, Plat, you haven't provided
> any evidence of your assertion aside from a
> gut-level feeling that it couldn't possibly be
> from Hodgson.

Well, that is certainly not a fair summary of my position. I gave specific reasons for my opinion, which you have made no attempt to counter. But yeah, since you bring it up, and in addition to the other reasons I gave, the story just did not feel like Hodgson to me. And even if that were all I had, I would still be entitled to my opinion, just as you would be entitled to yours. My gut versus your gut.

Funny how you're trying to move the goal-post. So now, somehow, my burden is to prove that it could not POSSIBLY be by Hodgson??? Well, two can play at that game. Why don't you prove that it could not POSSIBLY be by someone else?

> While I'd love to see an academic
> article on the subject, I find your effort at
> point-counterpoint disingenuous.

LOL on the "academic article". Possibly, one is being commissioned by the publisher right now, to be published in the next newly copyrighted edition of CARNACKI THE GHOST FINDER. And I'm sure it will support the publisher's position. Too bad it does not exist yet, and you cannot cite it as an authority. I suppose you have mentioned it only to imply that lowly members of the public like myself, have no right to think for ourselves, when publishers try to sell stuff to us.

In the meantime, while we are waiting for this "academic" article to appear, what do you have to contribute to the discussion? Calling me "disingenuous" is just hurling mud.

> There's plenty of
> writers that have sat on stories, for any number
> of different reasons, not all of them rational
> (cf. H. P. Lovecraft and "The Dream-Quest of
> Unknown Kadath.")

Why are you pretending I took the position that no posthumously-published work is ever genuine? Is that not disingenuous?

> Unless you've got proof that
> Hodgson didn't write the thing, you don't have any
> strong arguments aside from your gut.

LOL. No middle ground, huh? Either I must provide "proof" (that meets YOUR standards, I suppose, or the publisher's), or I must accept on faith the self-serving claims of the copy-right holders and publishers, who are playing the old game of reclaiming public domain works by putting out new and 'improved' editions. THEY don't have to prove anything. How convenient for them.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 17 Mar 19 | 08:04PM by Platypus.

Wow, you took the train straight to conspiracy-laden crazy-town, huh?

Ancient History Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, you took the train straight to
> conspiracy-laden crazy-town, huh?


Lol. Now you're calling me crazy and a conspiracy theorist. Another non-argument.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17 Mar 19 | 08:27PM by Platypus.

Sad to see nothing around here ever changes...

Radovarl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sad to see nothing around here ever changes...


It is part of Life. You take the bad with the good. Live and let live. I don't think you will find a forum anywhere completely free from quarrels. You can choose to stay away from the discussion if you find it unpleasant, and contribute with something positive of your own in another thread.

A question to those howling "conspiracy theorist": What about "The Churchyard Yew, by Sheridan Le Fanu"? Is that genuine? Or do you concede that it was actually written by Mr. Derleth?

If you concede "The Churchyard Yew", is NOT a genuine Le Fanu, then what is your argument here? Funny coincidence that the manuscript just happened to end up in the hands of August Derleth, a known fraudster, so he could publish it four years after Bessie's death. Were he and Lissie next door neighbors of something? No?

Why is the burden of proof on me? Ever heard the expression "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Mar 19 | 11:45AM by Platypus.

I'm still waiting for Mr. Anderson to provide the exact quote from Hodgson's log where Hodgson reports having tried to sell this story in 1917. Obviously the precise words will make a huge difference in terms of whether it can be identified as the same story or not.

Tic toc tic toc tic toc.

I'm still waiting for Mr. Anderson to provide the quote from collector H.C. Koenig (died 1959), where H.C. Koenig explains how he came by the manuscript, and confirms that he gave it to Derleth.

Tic toc tic toc tic toc.

I'm still waiting for Mr. Anderson to provide the quote from the author's sister Lissie, where she confirms that she gave the manuscript to H. Koenig, and otherwise confirms that it is a genuine Hodgson work.

Tic toc tic toc tic toc.

I'm still waiting for Mr. Anderson to explain how he knew, when he held the manuscript in his hands, that it was by Hodgson. Was it the psychic emanations? Or was it because Derleth wrote "by William Hope Hodgson" on the byline of the original manuscript? Something else?

Tic toc tic toc tic toc.

I'd also like Mr. Anderson to make a full disclosure of his interest in this matter, and/or his connection with those who may have an interest in this matter.

Tic toc tic toc tic toc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 18 Mar 19 | 12:55PM by Platypus.

Yes, I'm reminded why most people have fled this forum. My time to depart has come too. No time to waste on uninformed trolls.

Douglas A. Anderson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I'm reminded why most people have fled this
> forum. My time to depart has come too. No time
> to waste on uninformed trolls.


LOL. You just showed up to shut down the discussion. I guess someone's gotta protect the reputation of the intellectual property.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Mar 19 | 07:34PM by Platypus.

I managed to look at "The Crew of the Lancing" (1964), which first appeared in the Derleth-edited, Arkham House published anthology OVER THE EDGE (1964).

It is basically a rewritten version of "Demons of the Sea" (1923). It is pretty much the same story, but with much of the haunting atmosphere sabotaged by a punchier, more abbreviated style. There is scarcely a sentence or a paragraph that is not rewritten or revised. The name of the Glasgow ghost ship has been changed from "Scottish Heath" to "Lancing".

So pick your explanation. Either the resourceful Mr. Derleth managed to come across yet another lost Hodgson manuscript, containing Hodgson's alternate but equally genuine version of the story. Or he just rewrote (and newly copyrighted) the story.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 18 Mar 19 | 08:00PM by Platypus.

Douglas A. Anderson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I'm reminded why most people have fled this
> forum. My time to depart has come too. No time
> to waste on uninformed trolls.


I can only repeat myself from my post above: Ignore the trolls. Continue to educate the uneducated. Write something interesting, and it will attract other spirited posters. How can this be expected to become a good forum/information center for CAS studies, if every intelligent authority turn their backs on it? This is Boyd Pearson's fine creation; it is him you are punishing, and those who are interested in hearing what you have got to say, not the trolls. This is a great discussion forum. But only as great as those willing to participate. I am sure Dr. Farmer would not have refrained from posting just because there are some trolls thrashing about every now and then. Because he had so much to say, and thus stimulated others. Don't blame your own lack of participation on others. One also needs to learn tolerate hearing different opinions, perspectives, and behavior from ones own. Some of you may regard me a troll because some of my standpoints; if so, I really don't care, because I am comfortable in myself and my views. I try to behave civilized. If someone behaves rudely, flares up, behaves childish ... so what?! Ignore it. Continue with your own thing. There are others who will appreciate it. Don't let them down. Sharing nurtures sharing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Mar 19 | 08:20PM by Knygatin.

I love how this thread lay dormant for a week before I started to contribute. Now all of a sudden, I'm to blame for driving everyone away.

Kyberean, I think you need to come back here and set things straight. And we could discuss de la Mare!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kyberean, I think you need to come back here and
> set things straight. And we could discuss de la
> Mare!

Does Kyberean have proof that Hodgson wrote "The Hog"? Or will he merely punish me for not believing?

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does Kyberean have proof that Hodgson wrote "The
> Hog"? Or will he merely punish me for not
> believing?

No, I don't know if he would enter the discussion of "The Hog". But he was rather robust, and accepted that discussions sometimes get upset, he didn't much mind ... he continued pushing his own cause with authority.

This is an excerpt from "The Collected Fiction of William Hope Hodgson: House on Borderland & Other Mysterious Places".

Carnacki, the Ghost-Finder arose out of Hodgson's desire to build a reliable market for his short fiction. A popular series character all but guaranteed regular sales to the magazine markets. Carnacki is at once an example of his pursuit of commercial markets, and at the same time, and an indication of his fascination with the fantastic. This fusion of popular formula
and personal fixation resulted in one of the most enduring figures of the ghost breaker/psychic detective genre. It is also another great example of the duality that inhabits his work—a detective... of the supernatural.
"The Gateway Monster," "The House Among the Laurels," "The Whistling Room," "The Horse of the Invisible," and "The Searcher of the End House" were published in The idler in 1910, from January through May. "The Thing Invisible" had been scheduled to appear in the June issue, but was not published until January 1912, in The New Magazine. It would be the last Carnacki story to see publication during Hodgson's lifetime.
Several of these stories were slightly re-written for their 1913 republication in the Eveleigh Nash book entitled Carnacki The Ghost-Finder. In addition to rewriting them, Hodgson also reworked the order in which they were presented. In 1910, for copyright reasons, an abridged edition was published in the US. This edition was titled Carnacki, The Ghost Finder, and a Poem. It featured events of the Carnacki stories as part of a single narrative. It is an interesting and effective enough variant that it will be reprinted in the fifth volume of this series.
The final three Carnacki stories were not published until after Hodgson's death. "The Haunted jarvee" was revised by Hodgson's wife at the request of the editor of The Premier Magazine in 1919, and it eventually saw publication ten years later in the March 1929 issue. It was further (but only slightly) revised by August Derleth for its publication in the 1947 Mycroft & Moran edition of Carnacki the Ghost-Finder. "The Hog" was published for the first time (via Derleth's efforts) in the January 1947 issue of Weird Tales, and was subsequently reprinted in the Mycroft & Moran edition, which also featured the previously unpublished story "The Find."
It has been suggested that these last two stories might have been fabricated by Mycroft & Moran/Arkham House publisher August Derleth. However, noted Hodgson scholar Sam Moskowitz confirmed the existence of the manuscript for "The Find" and has noted that Derleth changed "virtually nothing." Moskowitz also found several notes from Hodgson's letters that refer to the submission of a story called "The Hog." Without a doubt, these two stories were revised and edited by Derleth, but at their core, they are Hodgson's work. The editorial changes make them stand out from the earlier Carnacki stories, but they are an artifact of their time- edited and published posthumously due to Hodgson's inability to find a venue for their publication during his lifetime.

Yesterday, I read the story again, after many years, and I must admit some things about it are really suspicious. Chiefly the hints of "a being that once ruled the world and that will come back one day to get it back" or "The Monster Ones" sound as if some Lovecraft´s disciple wrote it. :-)
On the other hand, I have no reason (and no proof, for that matter) to disbelieve Moskowitz lied about the letters about the submission of the tale and Hodgson´s authorship. Judging by the limited information one can get, I would say it may really be that Hodgson wrote a story called "The Hog" but somebody (maybe Derleth) revised and edited it. Who knows ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20 Mar 19 | 04:28AM by Minicthulhu.

I have not read any of the Carnacki stories. (Only have a voice-recording of "The Hog", but have not listened to it yet.) I never bothered with them, because others said they were detective or adventure yarns with some supernatural touches not up to the quality of his other more famous work. I am not a completist (only for a very few writers, including Lovecraft and Smith), ... I have too much else to read, and time is not enough.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not read any of the Carnacki stories. (Only
> have a voice-recording of "The Hog", but have not
> listened to it yet.) I never bothered with them,
> because others said they were detective or
> adventure yarns with some supernatural touches not
> up to the quality of his other more famous work.

The Carnacki stories are horror-fiction, for the most part, but (unlike most of Hodgson's horror) deliberately written so as to undercut the horror, using Carnacki's "by Jove" schoolboy style of storytelling, as a buffer between the reader and the horror. And some of the stories have Scooby Doo endings.

If some don't like them, that is fine. And if some prefer "The Hog" to the originals, that too is fine. I just don't think "The Hog" was written by the same person as wrote the originals.

(@Minicthulhu, I'll get to your post later).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20 Mar 19 | 12:17PM by Platypus.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is an excerpt from "The Collected Fiction of
> William Hope Hodgson: House on Borderland & Other
> Mysterious Places".

You might as well identify the author: Jeremy Lassen. I'm not sure why his words have any particular authority.

[snipping a bunch of stuff that is not really in dispute]

> The final three Carnacki stories were not
> published until after Hodgson's death. "The
> Haunted jarvee" was revised by Hodgson's wife at
> the request of the editor of The Premier Magazine
> in 1919, and it eventually saw publication ten
> years later in the March 1929 issue. It was
> further (but only slightly) revised by August
> Derleth for its publication in the 1947 Mycroft &
> Moran edition of Carnacki the Ghost-Finder.

This is not really in dispute either. I never expressed an opinion on "The Haunted Jarvee".

> "The
> Hog" was published for the first time (via
> Derleth's efforts) in the January 1947 issue of
> Weird Tales, and was subsequently reprinted in the
> Mycroft & Moran edition, which also featured the
> previously unpublished story "The Find."
> It has been suggested that these last two stories
> might have been fabricated by Mycroft &
> Moran/Arkham House publisher August Derleth.

And that remains the most likely explanation. Thanks to "The Churchyard Yew", we know Derleth was a literary forger, and these 2 pieces appeared in the same year that he created "The Churchyard Yew". But nobody connected the "The Churchard Yew" or "The Find" or "The Hog" to Derelth, until the 1975 copyright renewals.

> However, noted Hodgson scholar Sam Moskowitz
> confirmed the existence of the manuscript for "The
> Find" and has noted that Derleth changed
> "virtually nothing."

I can well believe that Derleth changed virtually nothing. After all, Derleth probably prepared the manuscript. Why would he need to change it, if he wrote it?

Okay. Maybe Moskowitz means more than this. Maybe. But Moskowitz has been dead for 20+ years. Why are we relying on some loose paraphrase of something he may have said years ago, when alive. If you are going to rely on a dead man's testimony, can you at least quote him directly, so that I can see the context?

Also, I love the ridiculous puffery in Lassen calling Sam Moskowitz a "noted Hodgson scholar". Sam was an anthologist and editor. Back when he was alive, he did more or less the same job that Lassen is doing now, and Derleth was doing before him. He was a salesman, selling stuff to the public, compiling and/or editing anthologies and writing introductions for them, recommending their contents to the public. I have no reason to believe he wasn't an honest salesman and decent guy. But still, he was not exactly in a position to do an independent investigation of the dubious claims of the Derleth Estate. It would be closer to the truth to say he was working for them.

And meanwhile, Derleth's heirs still have this "original manuscript". If it is really genuine, they could arrange for a much better proof than some quote puffery with dead witnesses who are in no position to complain. Why don't they? They've been under suspicion for 43 years, ever since the 1975 copyright renewals revealed there was something rotten in Denmark. I know you don't like my "tic toc tic toc". But seriously, man, there's a point to that. What the hell are they waiting for? Reading between the lines, I would say that the proof just isn't there, and that this "original manuscript", if fairly examined, would collapse their case.

> Moskowitz also found several
> notes from Hodgson's letters that refer to the
> submission of a story called "The Hog."

Did he really?

Maybe he did. But if Hodgson wrote a story called "the Hog" in 1917, it was probably a war story.

But I'm still waiting for this alleged quote from his letters that allegedly proves that Hodgson referred to this story in his letters. Again, his exact words are important.

Why are we playing telephone here? Lassen says that Mostkowitz says that Hodgson said something in his letters?

> Without a
> doubt, these two stories were revised and edited
> by Derleth, but at their core, they are Hodgson's
> work.

Of course! At its core "The Find" is "The Dumpley Acrostics". And at it's core, "The Hog" is "The Swine Things from The House on the Borderland meet Carnacki in The Gateway of the Monster." Nobody denies that!

> The editorial changes make them stand out
> from the earlier Carnacki stories, but they are an
> artifact of their time- edited and published
> posthumously due to Hodgson's inability to find a
> venue for their publication during his lifetime.


This almost sounds like Lassen's admission that the story is NOT genuine. Lassen sounds here like he is trying to justify the unjustifiable. If a story is not the product of Hodgson's time, then it is no longer genuinely the work of Hodgson. A Hodgson homage or pastiche is not the same as an authentic Hodgson story.

And I think we now move from Lassen's comments to yours.

> Yesterday, I read the story again, after many
> years, and I must admit some things about it are
> really suspicious. Chiefly the hints of "a being
> that once ruled the world and that will come back
> one day to get it back" or "The Monster Ones"
> sound as if some Lovecraft´s disciple wrote it.
> :-)

Well "the Monstrous Ones" is an authentic Hodgson reference, taken straight from "The Gateway of the Monster". But you may have a point with the "being that once ruled the world" reference.

> On the other hand, I have no reason (and no proof,
> for that matter) to disbelieve Moskowitz lied
> about the letters about the submission of the tale
> and Hodgson´s authorship.

I agree. There is no evidence whatsoever that poor long-dead Sam Moskowitz lied to anyone about anything. I mean, I don't know the guy. He could be a liar for all I know. But I have no reason to think so. As far as I know, he has said nothing inconsistent with my belief that Hodgson did not write "The Hog".

But he may have his own opinion, for all I know. And he's entitled to it, as you are to yours.

> Judging by the limited
> information one can get, I would say it may really
> be that Hodgson wrote a story called "The Hog" but
> somebody (maybe Derleth) revised and edited it.
> Who knows …

Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Anything is possible. But I'll stick with my original opinion on which of these is more likely. And I really don't think the Derleth estate is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 20 Mar 19 | 08:10PM by Platypus.

Douglas A. Anderson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth is that 1) Hodgson's own
> manuscript survives (I've held it in my hands).

It is worth mentioning that, in earlier online posts, made many years ago, where you claimed to authoritatively address this issue, you claimed that it was a TYPESCRIPT that you saw. No big deal. I assumed that was what you meant by "manuscript" anyhow. However, you refuse to clarify how you knew this document was Hodgson's, and in that context hence it obviously makes a big difference whether what you saw a typescript, or a manuscript.

(Or course, if you have also since then seen a manuscript, feel free to clarify).

Well, I recently read William Hope Hodgson's posthumous story "A Timely Escape". Call me paranoid if you must, but I cannot help very strongly suspecting that Hodgson did not write that one either. It read like something his wife might have written.

I have nothing against traditional damsel-in-distress stories. And I have nothing against stories featuring an active female protagonist who saves her man. But Hodgson was far more likely to write the former than the latter. This is the only exception I've ever seen.

So I check her background, and sure enough, she had been a staff writer for a women's magazine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21 Jun 19 | 03:59PM by Platypus.

So what you're saying is you have a suspicion based on a kinda sexist interpretation and no proof.

I have read cca. 70 short stories by W.H. Hodgson so far and I must say a great body of his work has nothing to do with the supernatural and is a far cry from his “standard“ horror tales.
There are scores of Mr. Hodgson´s stories published in his life one would hardly expect to be written by him. “Kind, Kind and Gentle is She“, “My House Shall Be Called the House of Prayer“, “The Captain of The Onion Boats“, “Judge Barclay´s Wife“, “The Girl with The Grey Eyes“, “Sea Horses“, “Date 1965: Modern Warfare“, “The Valley of Lost Children“ and many, many others … It is hard to believe these stories, full of humour, sentimentality, fun, action and love, were written by the same author who created “The House on The Borderland“ or “The Voice in The Night“ …

I don't think it's that hard to believe. Many authors have tried different styles of writing and genre fitting of their mood at the time. CAS himself wrote love poetry, satirical poetry, phantastic poetry, and not to mention the various genres of short stories he'd written, ranging from heavy tales of grim sorcery like "The Dark Eidolon" to humorous satires on science like "Schizoid Creator." I haven't read Hodgson's non-weird work, and I'm not all that inclined to seek them out, but he's written epic fantasies like "The Night Land" and added plenty of romantic adventure and sentimentality to "The Boats of the Glen Carrig." For someone to write so many stories, and to have such an active and varied life as his, I'd be surprised if they didn't explore various fields, themes, and perspectives in their literature.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 22 Jun 19 | 12:13PM by Yluos.

Ancient History Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what you're saying is you have a suspicion
> based on a kinda sexist interpretation and no
> proof.

LOL. Are you trying to insinuate I'm a "sexist"? Thanks for your comment.


Yes, I have a suspicion, based on what my sense of sense of Hodgson based on having read a fair bit of him. No I did not claim to have "proof".

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have read cca. 70 short stories by W.H. Hodgson
> so far and I must say a great body of his work has
> nothing to do with the supernatural and is a far
> cry from his “standard“ horror tales.
> There are scores of Mr. Hodgson´s stories
> published in his life one would hardly expect to
> be written by him. “Kind, Kind and Gentle is
> She“, “My House Shall Be Called the House of
> Prayer“, “The Captain of The Onion Boats“,
> “Judge Barclay´s Wife“, “The Girl with The
> Grey Eyes“, “Sea Horses“, “Date 1965:
> Modern Warfare“, “The Valley of Lost
> Children“ and many, many others … It is hard
> to believe these stories, full of humour,
> sentimentality, fun, action and love, were written
> by the same author who created “The House on The
> Borderland“ or “The Voice in The Night“ …

All I can say is that I read most of the stories you mention, and I did not find it hard to believe that Hodgson wrote them. The story that attracted my suspicion was one that features a female protagonist, seemingly a stand-in for Hodgson's wife, as protagonist, saving her talented, slightly-pompous, but clueless, lover who seems to be a stand-in for Hodgson.

I'm not necessarily saying Hodgson could not have written it either. But it was published after his death. And even Moskowitz says there was no evidence that the story was ever submitted to magazines prior to his death. Would you be surprised if his wife wrote it?

Yluos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it's that hard to believe.

Sure, maybe not. But as it stands, I find his wife writing it even easier to believe. One alternative not being impossible does not rule out other alternatives.

You mentioned "The Night Land" and "The Boats of the Glenn Carrig". These, as I recall, show his usual approach to the male-female dynamic in adventure stories.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22 Jun 19 | 01:02PM by Platypus.

I wish we could have good critical biography of this author, by someone able to find out more about his life and who was well read outside the weird fiction genre. The biographer probably should be someone not affiliated with the conventional academic world that is so tiresomely preoccupied with literary theory. On the other hand, I would hope the biographer would not be an excessively "fannish" author. I don't suppose we will get that biography.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yluos Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't think it's that hard to believe.
>
> Sure, maybe not. But as it stands,

It looks like you assume I was discussing that possibly wife-written tale, but to be honest I had little interest in that topic. I was responding solely to Minicthulhu and his surprise that an accomplished author could write a variety of very different stories. I myself have written a cosmic horror story with a grim and sardonic tone (which will soon be made into a short film), a Dunsanian fantasy about wistfulness and yearning, and a fairy tale with a humorous twist ending. And after reading Dr. Farmer's reminiscences of CAS as both a person and a poet, I'm mostly never surprised when an author tries very different things. Even Lovecraft went from writing fantasy stories about escapism to writing a story that defies escapism (even if the story itself indulges in quite a bit of it).

As to the wife-story, it could have been written by him, or maybe it wasn't. I'm siding with you about the possibility that it wasn't, because even though an author can write a wide variety of genres and styles, it's still usually easy to see the difference between one writer and another. Hodgson can write one story about lovers and then write another story about vicious pig-men, but no one can write about those same subjects in the same precise way he did. But that doesn't interest me. Not as much as that critical, insightful biography Mr. Nelson suggested.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jun 19 | 10:45AM by Yluos.

Yluos Wrote:
--------------------
> It looks like you assume I was discussing that
> possibly wife-written tale, but to be honest I had
> little interest in that topic. I was responding
> solely to Minicthulhu and his surprise that an
> accomplished author could write a variety of very
> different stories.

My mistake. However, I am pretty sure that nobody, including Minicthulhu, doubts that Hodgson wrote (for instance) "The Captain of the Onion Boat" or "The Sea Horses". It is a non-issue.

> As to the wife-story, it could have been written
> by him, or maybe it wasn't.

Okay.

> But that doesn't interest
> me. Not as much as that critical, insightful
> biography Mr. Nelson suggested.

Is something in the works? Honestly, I find this disembodied interest in a hypothetical Hodgson biography, written by a non-academic person (odd specificity on Mr. Nelson's part) to be rather hard to identify with. Is there some particular question about Hodgson that you were hoping the biography would resolve?

And surely we can wait for its release before we start praising it for being insightful.

For anyone that hasn't heard, William Hope Hodgson scholar Sam Gafford has had a heart attack and is in the hospital. Here's hoping for his recovery.

That´s bad, hopefully he will be allright. I have always appreciated his blog about W.H.Hodgson. (though now it has been "dead" for more than a year)

This is rather late, and perhaps you've already read this story by now, but Hodgson's The Voice in the Dawn is interesting, as it is his only Sargasso story that isn't an explicit horror or adventure story. I'm not sure if it can even be considered fantasy in terms of genre, though it does have a mystical yearning in its tone and atmosphere.

The story is kind of a longish vignette about sailors going through an endless sea of green and yellow weed, marveling at the big and little sights of nature, while hearing a mysterious voice calling to them as if from beyond time and space. It's really not like any of his other stories I've read, even if it uses the common setting and weird sea creatures. It's like a profound appreciation of the wondrous beauty and inhuman ambiguity of the weed sea. It doesn't harshly and irrationally judge the ocopi and crabs and other weird creatures as "abominable" like Lovecraft might, while still appreciating that they're so strange, frightening, and more powerful than humanity in this distant environment.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19 Nov 19 | 02:13PM by Yluos.

Yluos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is rather late, and perhaps you've already
> read this story by now, but Hodgson's The Voice in
> the Dawn is interesting, as it is his only
> Sargasso story that isn't an explicit horror or
> adventure story. I'm not sure if it can even be
> considered fantasy in terms of genre, though it
> does have a mystical yearning in its tone and
> atmosphere.
>
> The story is kind of a longish vignette about
> sailors going through an endless sea of green and
> yellow weed, marveling at the big and little
> sights of nature, while hearing a mysterious voice
> calling to them as if from beyond time and space.
> It's really not like any of his other stories I've
> read, even if it uses the common setting and weird
> sea creatures. It's like a profound appreciation
> of the wondrous beauty and inhuman ambiguity of
> the weed sea. It doesn't harshly and irrationally
> judge the ocopi and crabs and other weird
> creatures as "abominable" like Lovecraft might,
> while still appreciating that they're so strange,
> frightening, and more powerful than humanity in
> this distant environment.


Thank you Yluos, those are interesting observations. I have read the story when younger, but don't remember it. I am sure I will appreciate it much better today. As it is in the far back of the collection Deep Waters, and as I don't see myself rereading the full of that volume anytime soon, I might have missed it forever. But now it is readily within easy reach. Thanks.

Yluos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is rather late, and perhaps you've already
> read this story by now, but Hodgson's The Voice in
> the Dawn is interesting, as it is his only
> Sargasso story that isn't an explicit horror or
> adventure story. I'm not sure if it can even be
> considered fantasy in terms of genre, though it
> does have a mystical yearning in its tone and
> atmosphere.
>
> The story is kind of a longish vignette about
> sailors going through an endless sea of green and
> yellow weed, marveling at the big and little
> sights of nature, while hearing a mysterious voice
> calling to them as if from beyond time and space.
> It's really not like any of his other stories I've
> read, even if it uses the common setting and weird
> sea creatures. It's like a profound appreciation
> of the wondrous beauty and inhuman ambiguity of
> the weed sea. It doesn't harshly and irrationally
> judge the octopi and crabs and other weird
> creatures as "abominable" like Lovecraft might,
> while still appreciating that they're so strange,
> frightening, and more powerful than humanity in
> this distant environment.

I never read that one, though I have heard of it. It's one of his posthumous ones, so who knows if it is actually by Hodgson. Where did you find it? In HORRORS FROM HAUNTED SEAS?

According to ISFDB, a story called "The Voice in the Dawn" was published in PREMIER MAGAZINE in 1920, 2 years after Hogdson's death, and presumably submitted by his widow. ISFDB seems to believe or assume this is the same story you are talking about. If it is the same story, it ought to be public domain. But if any public domain version is available anywhere on the web, I cannot find it.

It is not clear to me, however, that the 1920 version of "The Voice in the Dawn" is the same story you are referring to. It could easily have been (for all I know) a variant title of "The Voice in the Night". "The Voice in the Dawn" also works reasonably well as a title, as the tale ends with dawn arriving, and the protagonist getting a glimpse of the speaker.

Next, a story called "The Call in the Dawn" appears in Derleth's 1967 collection DEEP WATERS. The core of this collection consists of most of the stories from Hodgson's MEN OF THE DEEP WATERS, which was public domain. At the end, however, Derleth has thrown in 3 new or quasi-new stories: "The Crew of the Lancing" (a variant of "Demons of the Sea"); "The Habitants of Middle Islet" (IIRC a variant of "The Island of the Ud"); and (lastly) "The Call in the Dawn". My suspicion is that all 3 of these tales are at least partially by Derleth, written or revised to ensure a renewed copyright for his collection (just as he added "The Churchyard Yew" to the Arkham House version of THE PURCELL PAPERS).

Finally, a story called "The Voice in the Dawn" is published in a 2012 anthology HORRORS FROM HAUNTED SEAS; which I'm told is a close variant of Derleth's version. Or maybe it is just Derleth's tale with the supposed original title "restored".

I'd like to be able to compare these versions some time. But the obvious place to start is with the 1920 version. And there seems to be no way of getting it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 20 Nov 19 | 06:17PM by Platypus.

Yluos: regarding the version of "The Voice in the Dawn" that you read: Can you think of any reason why it would have been called "Son of Men"?

Because apparently, Hodgson may have once considered "The Voice in the Dawn" and "Son of Men" as alternate titles for the same story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20 Nov 19 | 06:59PM by Platypus.

(made a new account, since my old username yluos was derived from a nasty period of self-denigration, and I wasn't expecting to post here after my first time.)

You're right that I read the story in HORRORS FROM HAUNTED SEAS. Unfortunately the collection has zero information on its contents; it doesn't even come with an introduction. Now I'm no expert on Hodgson, as I've only read this book and his novels, and the only stories I've revisited in the last couple years have been the Voices in the Night and the Dawn, so I can't say with certainty that he wrote it. The only work of Derleth's I'm familiar with are a handful of his Lovecraftian frauds, though I would say "The Voice in the Dawn" is a dozen times greater than all of those combined, so if Derleth wrote it then that's the first thing of his that hasn't repulsed me!

I think the story at least expresses some of Hodgson's visceral sentiments and observations about the ocean. It holds a dreary uncertainty, yet lingers far more than usual on the sea's awe and beauty in its many details. The reason for its title is because much of the narration explores the ocean during the dawn, emphasizing the eerie and magnificent presence of the sun and how it interacts with the weed and water. A haunting voice calls to the sailors, yelling "Son of Man!" many times throughout the story but never answering their calls in return. The narrator, who is one of the sailors, describes the voice as coming "out of all the dawn in the world." That of course answers your questions about the title.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20 Nov 19 | 10:37PM by kojootti.

Thanks, kojootti.

I managed to read this story in COLLECTED FICTIONS, there called "The Call in the Dawn". The text notes say their version follows Derleth's version. I did not get any particular strong impression that this was something Hodgson would not have written, though it is, as you note, different from his other "Sargasso Sea" tales.

I found online an image of what purports to be the cover page of a typescript for the tale (Hodgson's???), with the typewritten title "The Voice in the Dawn". If it is Hodgson's, it can only have been prepared in the last 2 years of his life, as it references THE LUCK OF THE STRONG (1916). Handwritten marginalia on the page include "Deep Waters" (the title of Derleth's collection), and the alternate titles "Son of Men" (sic) and "The Call in the Dawn". I would guess the handwriting, at least, is Derleth's. You can see well enough through the cover page to the text behind it to see that the next page is the start of "The Call in the Dawn" rather than "The Voice in the Night".

'Son of Man' could be a religious reference, though I have no idea how to apply it in this context.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 21 Nov 19 | 12:00PM by Platypus.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That´s bad, hopefully he will be allright. I have
> always appreciated his blog about W.H.Hodgson.

I just revisited this thread after 10 months. Sadly, it seems Sam Gafford died on July 19 of last year, after a "short illness", not too long after you posted. He was only 56.
[www.sansonefuneralhome.com]

Earlier in this thread, the late Sam Moskowitz (may he rest in peace) was cited by Jeremy Lassen (by way of Minicthulhu) as an expert authority and "noted Hodgson scholar" allegedly establishing that the Derleth-published Hodgson stories, and specifically "The Find" and "The Hog", are genuine.

I have managed to locate a copy of the book that is apparently the source of the expert opinions cited. It is William Hope Hodgson, TERRORS OF THE SEA, ed. Sam Moskowitz (Donald M. Grant Publishers, 1996). And yes, Moskowitz does argue, on various grounds, that all the Derleth-published stories are genuine, with the limited exception of "The Crew of the Lancing", which Moskowitz believes is a genuine Hodgson story that Derleth re-edited.

Without yet going into detail as to Moskowitz's reasons for his opinions, I'd like to give some curious quotes from the book, that may put his opinions into a certain perspective.

"August Derleth's British representative, G. Ken Chapman, once told me
that Derleth had written one or more of the Hodgson stories he
published."

TERRORS OF THE SEA, at p. 25.

As far as I know, nothing compelled Mr. Moskowitz to reveal this little detail to us. It is certainly hard for me to regard him as a dishonest man, when he goes so far out of his way to disclose information so contrary to the thesis he is at least pretending to argue for.

Nor does it occur to Mr. Moskowitz to disbelieve Mr. Chapman. Instead he tries to convince himself, and us, that Mr. Chapman was referring to "The Crew of the Lancing". I find that curious, since "The Crew of the Lancing" is the one Derleth-published Hodgson story that can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt NOT to have been written by Mr. Derleth, since it is no more than a modest re-edit of "Demons of the Sea" (1923).

However, rather than debate the pros and cons of Moskowitz's opinions and the reasons for them (maybe later), I would like to move on to yet another expert opinion of the good Mr. Moskowitz, from the very same volume, where he vouches for the authenticity of yet another posthumously published Hodgson work: "The R.M.S. 'Empress of Australia'" (1996), which Moskowitz now presents to the public in TERRORS OF THE SEA for the first time:

"The R.M.S. Empress of Australia is science fiction laid in the year
1923, but it may have been written as early as 1906, the year of the
San Francisco earthquake. It must be remembered that William Hope
Hodgson died in 1918, so this story was set in the future. There is
some question on whether or not it was intended for professional
submission, since it was typed on legal-sized onion-skin paper and
is in a different typewriter face than that used on other manuscripts
which were typed in a much cleaner and newer pica face."

Moskowitz then gives a brief summary of the story, for which I instead substitute my own summary. The story, in the form of a log, is about a devastating earthquake and fire observed from the ship R.M.S. Empress of Australia, while it was docked at Yokahama, Japan. It details she ship's arrival on August 31, 1923, the first tremors on September 1, at around noon; the fires that had broke out by 12:15 pm and engulfed the whole city by 1:30 pm; the loading of the ship with 3,000 refugees, the arrival of RMS Empress of Canada on Sept. 2 to help with the refugees; the subsequent discharge of the refugees to various other ships and ports, etc., etc. etc.

Moskowitz then continues with his argument for authenticity:

"No record was kept of any submissions, though the story is
uncontrovertibly Hodgson's, not only from internal evidence
but also from his own handwritten corrections on the
manuscript."

TERRORS OF THE SEA, at p. 196.


While Jeremy Lassen was willing to cite Moskowitz's expert opinion in the case of "The Find", he is unwilling to do this here. In his COLLECTED FICTIONS, he places "R.M.S. 'Empress of Australia'" at the very end of volume 5, in a category labeled "Counterfeits". He does not explain his reasoning, but in this case none is necessary. I'm not sure "counterfeit" is the right word for a perfectly-accurate account of a very real tragedy, but I can certainly understand why Lassen found it hard to swallow Moskowitz's conclusion that Hodgson wrote it.

The thought occurs to me that maybe Moskowitz was deliberately pulling all our legs. But whether by accident or on purpose, I am certainly grateful to him for letting us know, in such a striking fashion, how much his expert scholarly endorsements of the authenticity of dubious Hodgson texts are worth.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 23 May 20 | 09:32PM by Platypus.

i read an abridged version of the night land