Goto Thread: PreviousNext
Goto:  Message ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Goto Page: 123AllNext
Current Page: 1 of 3
Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 09:04AM
I have noticed advertisements for two new Averoigne paperbacks, with a third perhaps to follow. I wonder if members here can comment upon them?

The first is "Averoigne," edited by by M. E. Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt and with a foreword by Kit Schlüter. It is advertised as being "printed in the style of the erstwhile Ballantine Books Adult Fantasy Series" by Inpatient Phantaisies.

The second is "The Averoigne Archives: The Complete Averoigne Tales by CAS" by Pickman's Press, edited by Edward Stasheff, with an introduction by Ron Hilger and a map by Tim Kirk.

In the back of this book (as seen in the Amazon preview pages) there is an ad for "The Averoigne Legacy" with two dozen poems and stories by various authors.

Is the first book legitimate? I know that sometimes there are unauthorized, pirated editions of Smith's work. Is the second book, as I suspect, the "authorized" version? Since Ron has written the introduction, it seems that way. Perhaps it is a paperback version of the recent hardcover by Centipede Press?

I apologize if I have missed information about these books before. I searched the forum here, but did not find mention of them.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 01:36PM
Clark Ashton Smith has been dead for many decades. He is in no position to authorize any new editions of anything. Some new editions may be better or worse than others. But "authorized" has nothing to do with that.

I would suspect that a major chunk of Smith's work is public domain. When such is the case, the distinction between "pirated" and "legitimate" is meaningless. But certain items may still be protected by copyright. In such cases, getting the appropriate legal permissions from the copyright holder (whoever that is - I would guess someone with no meaningful connection to Clark Ashton Smith) would be a legal matter.

That said, I'm afraid I have no opinion on the editions you mention.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 02:12PM
For whatever it is worth, The Averoigne Archives includes front matter claiming it is published with the permission of "CASiana Enterprises, the literary estate of Clark Ashton Smith".

That sort of thing is standard verbiage, though. It does not necessarily follow that it contains a single story or poem that is not public domain. AFAIK, it does not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Aug 19 | 02:25PM by Platypus.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 04:14PM
Yes, Platypus, I know know that Smith could not personally authorize these books. I used the word "authorized" because I understood in the past there was an estate involved with Smith's legacy - as you note in your second post. I don't know any more than that, however.

As to some new editions being better or worse than others... that's a good question, and part of why I posted about this originally. Do you (or any other Forum members) have either of these books? If the legalities are unclear, what about the objects themselves? Are they printed well, are there obvious errors? How is the binding? Is the paper good quality?

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 06:53PM
stevereplogle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Platypus, I know know that Smith could not
> personally authorize these books. I used the word
> "authorized" because I understood in the past
> there was an estate involved with Smith's legacy -
> as you note in your second post. I don't know any
> more than that, however.

Yes, a corporation apparently exists. It styles itself the "literary estate" of CAS. It may have acquired, probably for a pittance, the copyrights to that small handful of CAS works that are still protected by copyright law, which are probably not the works that anyone wants to read.

The practice in the industry seems to be that when someone wants to publish public domain material, he reaches out to such a corporation for "permission". This permission may be granted for a tiny sum or entirely free of charge, especially if one calls any bluff the corporation might try to make, and displays knowledge that the corporation has no real rights. The reason why it might make sense to do this, even though the would-be publisher knows this corporation has no rights whatsoever, is that the illusion of someone performing such a gate-keeping function helps limit competition for the material one is about to publish.

All I am saying, is that the opinion, permission, or authorization, of such a corporation means nothing to you or I. At least, if there is any reason why this corporation's opinion might matter, I don't know what it is. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that all CAS's Averoigne stories, including everything in the table of contents of The Averoigne Archives, are public domain.

> As to some new editions being better or worse than
> others... that's a good question, and part of why
> I posted about this originally. Do you (or any
> other Forum members) have either of these books?
> If the legalities are unclear, what about the
> objects themselves? Are they printed well, are
> there obvious errors? How is the binding? Is the
> paper good quality?

Sorry. All I have been able to do is view sample pages on Amazon.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Ancient History (IP Logged)
Date: 6 August, 2019 10:01PM
I bought a copy of M. E. Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt's book for kicks. Basic print-on-demand stuff, nothing spectacular.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Chipougne (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 03:16AM
Platypus Wrote:
> Yes, a corporation apparently exists. It styles
> itself the "literary estate" of CAS. It may have
> acquired, probably for a pittance, the copyrights
> to that small handful of CAS works that are still
> protected by copyright law, which are probably not
> the works that anyone wants to read.


Not exactly. Smith's literary estate has been represented for about 40 years by his stepson, William A. Dorman, professor of Government Emeritus at California State University, Sacramento (son of Carol Jones Dorman whom Smith married in 1954), director of CASiana Literary Enterprises. Due to the intricacies of US copyright laws, many Smith stories are now in the public domain, but not all of them, far from it. Not to mention his artwork. And that doesn’t apply to foreign publications. In most of the world, the default length of copyright is the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years and in numerous countries Smith’s work is not PD at all and is still being published under the supervision of W. Dorman.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 11:00AM
I find it odd that Necronomicon Press, which is still active, have not followed up on their excellent Zothique and Hyperborea volumes, after all these years, with an Averoigne volume. Let Jason C. Eckhardt do the cover artwork. It will be a winner.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 04:02PM
Chipougne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus Wrote:
> > Yes, a corporation apparently exists. It
> styles
> > itself the "literary estate" of CAS. It may
> have
> > acquired, probably for a pittance, the
> copyrights
> > to that small handful of CAS works that are
> still
> > protected by copyright law, which are probably
> not
> > the works that anyone wants to read.
>
>
> Not exactly. Smith's literary estate has been
> represented for about 40 years by his stepson,
> William A. Dorman, professor of Government
> Emeritus at California State University,
> Sacramento (son of Carol Jones Dorman whom Smith
> married in 1954), director of CASiana Literary
> Enterprises.

Thanks for the information, for whatever it is worth. But if you start your response with "not exactly", you should probably get around, eventually, to saying something that contradicts what I wrote. You never did.

Obviously, the copyrights were not originally held by Casiana Literary Entirprises. So either it acquired them (maybe Dorman transferred them to it), or it has nothing to do with any copyrights, and is not in any meaningful sense a "literary estate".

Dorman's status as "director" may be little more than a name on a 40-year old certificate of incorporation. Meanwhile, California lists the corporation as inactive and no longer authorized to do business, probably for failure to update it's filings for the last 40 years. But why would it update it's filings, if it has no plans to sue anybody? And why would it have plans to sue anyone, if it owns no valuable copyrights?

The true party in interest is whoever owns the corporation. This may be Dorman; or it might not be. Even if Dorman once owned the corporation (unclear), he may have sold it at some point in the last 40 years (again, probably for a pittance). If he sold it, he would remain the "director" on incorporation documents, as long as nobody took the trouble to change it. And whoever he sold it to, may have bargained for the right to throw Dorman's name around for a little moral authority (such as it is).

Meanwhile, I don't know Dorman. Even if he remains the true party of interest, it is unclear why this should mean anything to me one way or another.

But I guess it is nice that he once knew CAS.

> Due to the intricacies of US
> copyright laws, many Smith stories are now in the
> public domain, but not all of them, far from it.

Well, you don't mention any. The context of the discussion is the Averoigne stories, such as (for instance) those published in the two books referred to by the OP.

> And that doesn’t
> apply to foreign publications. In most of the
> world, the default length of copyright is the life
> of the author plus either 50 or 70 years and in
> numerous countries Smith’s work is not PD at all
> and is still being published under the supervision
> of W. Dorman.

The copyright in the United States is life of the author plus 70 years. The reason this does not extend to most of CAS's work is because most of his work had already entered public domain, by the time the current copyright laws went into effect.

The reason it works this way, is because it would be messy and stupid to try to reclaim material that had already entered public domain. That's not going to change just because you hop international boundaries.

Various international treaties extend US copyright to foreign jurisdictions to a greater or lesser extent. But no treaty would enforce copyright in a foreign country that was already public domain in the country of origin. That would make no sense.

So US Copyright Law does not help, and international treaties won't help.

But you seem to hint at the hope that there may be some foreign jurisdiction which, will, on the strength of their own laws, enforce rights to an author's work, no matter where published, merely because the author died less than 70 years ago, even if that work is public domain in its nation of origin. But you don't identify any such foreign jurisdiction that does this. And I'm guessing most of us don't live there.

But yes of course. Publishers, foreign and local, will, as a matter of general policy, tend to be happy to seek the "permission" or "supervision" of "Casiana Literary Enterprises". But this is for the reasons I stated. And also, perhaps, because it is cheaper and easier than researching the intricacies of US copyright law. All else is (probably) mere puffery.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 August, 2019 07:40PM
Or perhaps we could convince Ballantine books to make a small resurrection of their Adult Fantasy series, and hire Gervasio Gallardo. Gallardo has had a long career, and is still around.
But I think I would personally prefer Necronomicon Press, and their honorable predisposition for unexpurgated texts.

Anyway, ... I never proposed to be a realist. I am a dreamer.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: stevereplogle (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 01:09AM
I appreciate this discussion - like Knygatin, I would love a Ballantine-like edition. In fact, that is one of the enticements the possibly-pirated edition holds. It is said to be modeled after the Ballantine CAS books. At any rate, I just now noticed that "The Averoigne Archives" is only an e-book, and not a paperback!

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Chipougne (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 04:08AM
In most countries outside the US, and especially here in Europe where Author's rights — as opposed to Copyright — prevail, Smith’s work won’t be in the public domain until January 1st 2032.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors%27_rights

As the beneficiary of the work of Smith, M. Dorman is entitled to grant or deny permission to use the said work under these jurisdictions. Which is why, for instance, the legal notes of the 2017 French edition of the work of Smith read as follow: «Published in agreement with William A. Dorman c/o Executor, c/o CASiana Entreprises, Literary Estate of Clark Ashton Smith 4543 North Ave. Sacramento, CA 95821 USA.»
https://www.mnemos.com/auteurs/clark-ashton-smith/

Whether or not M. Dorman would be willing to prosecute, say, a French publisher who would use Smith’s work without his approval before a French court is open to debate. I doubt it would be worth it financially, but he could.

United States only became a signatory to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works in 1989, and incorporated a version of moral rights under its copyright law under Title 17 of the U.S. Code. Moral rights were first recognized in France, even before they were included in the Berne Convention in 1928, which makes us perhaps more sensitive to these matters.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 8 Aug 19 | 04:20AM by Chipougne.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 11:40AM
stevereplogle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Averoigne," edited by by M. E.
> Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt and with a foreword by
> Kit Schlüter. It is advertised as being "printed
> in the style of the erstwhile Ballantine Books
> Adult Fantasy Series"


I like it (the cover). Although a tad sketchy. Looks like a promising study for a more detailed illustration. The wolf is barely discernible.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 01:06PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stevereplogle Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Averoigne," edited by by M. E.
> > Anzuoni and Enzio de Kiipt and with a foreword
> by
> > Kit Schlüter. It is advertised as being
> "printed
> > in the style of the erstwhile Ballantine Books
> > Adult Fantasy Series"
>
>
> I like it (the cover). Although a tad sketchy.
> Looks like a promising study for a more detailed
> illustration. The wolf is barely discernible.

I rather like it. It is colorful and attractive. The back cover is also painted in a similar impressionistic style, but it is real impressionism, and not some piece of meaningless modern art.

Re: Two New Averoigne paperbacks (or three?)
Posted by: Platypus (IP Logged)
Date: 8 August, 2019 02:33PM
Chipougne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In most countries outside the US, and especially
> here in Europe where Author's rights — as
> opposed to Copyright — prevail, Smith’s work
> won’t be in the public domain until January 1st
> 2032.
> [en.wikipedia.org]

It has not been established that any so-called "author's rights" were ever transferred to Mr. Dorman. He is the child, by a prior marriage, of a woman CAS was married to at the time of his death. This in no way establishes that he currently holds any "author's rights".

BTW, "author's rights" is merely a type of "copyright" used in foreign jurisdictions. The distinction between "author's rights" and "copyright" is not particularly relevant to this discussion.

In any event, nothing in the article you link to claims that material that has fallen out of copyright in a country of origin will be protected in most foreign jurisdictions. Certainly, the Berne Convention (at least) would grant no such protection.

> As the beneficiary of the work of Smith, M. Dorman
> is entitled to grant or deny permission to use the
> said work under these jurisdictions.

Sure. I could also grant you permission. I could also refuse to grant you permission. Since I have no rights, you are under no obligation to care. But, if you failed to call my bluff, I might end up as a "beneficiary" of the author's work.

> Which is why,
> for instance, the legal notes of the 2017 French
> edition of the work of Smith read as follow:
> «Published in agreement with William A. Dorman
> c/o Executor, c/o CASiana Entreprises, Literary
> Estate of Clark Ashton Smith 4543 North Ave.
> Sacramento, CA 95821 USA.»
> [www.mnemos.com]

Nothing in this statement claims that Mr. Dorman is the current holder of any "copyright" or so-called "author's rights". It does not even use the term "permission", which is a common form of puffery used by entities who do not necessarily have any legal rights.

Even worse, you are talking about a TRANSLATION. "Casiana Literary Enterprises" may indeed have been part of an agreement with those who seek to publish the newly copyrighted translation. Might as well get him involved, for reasons already described. That, however, means nothing to anyone on this forum. We can all read English, and have no interest in reading CAS's works in a newly-copyrighted French translation, regardless of any involvement that "Casiana Literary Enterprises" may have had.

> Whether or not M. Dorman would be willing to
> prosecute, say, a French publisher who would use
> Smith’s work without his approval before a
> French court is open to debate. I doubt it would
> be worth it financially, but he could.

Anyone can file a frivolous lawsuit.

But hey, I am no expert on the crazy laws of some foreign jurisdictions. It may well be that if Mr. Anzuoni made the mistake of taking a vacation in France, he could be arrested by the French police as soon as he stepped off the airplane. I doubt it, but if it should happen to be true, it only proves we should all stay away from France.

> United States only became a signatory to the Berne
> Convention for the Protection of Literary and
> Artistic Works in 1989, and incorporated a version
> of moral rights under its copyright law under
> Title 17 of the U.S. Code.

Most of CAS's works are public domain in the U.S.

Hence, they are also unprotected under the Berne Convention, which does not protect material that is not protected (by copyright or "author's rights") in the country of origin.

The concept of "moral rights" (a sub-category of "author's rights") has no particular relevance to what we are discussing. Both are "terms of art", with no necessary connection to morality or the "rights" of dead authors.

> Moral rights were first
> recognized in France, even before they were
> included in the Berne Convention in 1928, which
> makes us perhaps more sensitive to these matters.

Why are you talking about "moral rights"?



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 8 Aug 19 | 02:59PM by Platypus.

Goto Page: 123AllNext
Current Page: 1 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Top of Page