By this I mean that you may have heard that they were worthwhile, and may have seriously tried--perhaps repeatedly--but found yourself running out of steam before really *connecting* with their works.

I will simultaneously prime the ol' discussion pump, and invite stoning, by offering up my own initial list:

Merritt
Asimov
Clark
MacDonald
Machen
R. E. Howard

The list could be longer.

As in the P. T. Andersen film, "There Will Be Blood"...

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frank Herbert and A.E. Coppard. Bored me utterly.

jkh

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will simultaneously prime the ol' discussion
> pump, and invite stoning, by offering up my own
> initial list:
>
> Merritt
> Asimov
> Clark
> MacDonald
> Machen
> R. E. Howard

I can connect with most of those on at least some level. Except maybe Asimov. I have not tried Clark. Many (but perhaps not all) of MacDonald's works are difficult to connect to, but I do get something out of them.

On my list are:
- Ursula K Le Guin
- Michael Moorcock
- Neil Gaiman
- Terry Pratchett
- Gene Wolfe
- Fritz Lieber
- Any modern award winner (THE POPPY WAR by Kuang is overdue from the library and goes back soon unfinished).

Algernon Blackwood. I find some of his early, more conventional, stories okay. But the more original he gets the more he loses me.

I assume you mean Clarke. Arthur C. Clarke. He has a unique writing style, if it can be called style. He builds upon his scientific insights, rationally achieving an effective sense of vast perspectives and the cosmic weird. Foremost I can recommend his novels Rendezvous with Rama, The City and the Stars, and Childhood's End.

This is very interesting.

Of course it's mainly subjective--there may be substantive technical reasons why a given writer is difficult to connect with, but mostly just a receptivity, or lack of, to a given style.

Too, theme can make it hard for someone to connect with a given writer. For me, a great example is Howard. What he seems to me to be doing is very similar to what Nietzsche was doing, which is to say they both recognize a very basic, and by today's standards, brutal, reality that's hardwired into the human animal. This is simply a recognition of the existence of the alpha male, and his place in the evolution of human social organization.

Howard goes on to glorify this, mythologize it, and Nietzsche--florid stylist that he is--come off as being an apologist, whereas to me, this phenomenon (male drive to power) is simply like being an omnivore--it just *is*, so what? It (male aggression, not being an omnivore...;^) ) may evolve away from having any reproductive value--in fact it sure looks like it's in the process--and will become something like the appendix.

So on this reason, alone, Howard is out, for me.

Let's see. Clarke (with a "e", thanks, Knygatin!) seems to me sterile. I think his attempts to actually offer futuristic situation as supported as an extension of currently understood scientific principles is quite good, but he just can't get me to *care*, one way or the other.

I don't know about Asimov; there is no *snap*. Sometimes the idea he explores is quite compelling: I really liked Nightfall as a kid. Just like Clarke's The Star, which is loaded up with irony.

Let's see... Le Guin feels to me like Dunsany, and Moorcock felt like Howard. We already know how I feel about Howard, and to me Dunsany is best when writing light humor, and from the little I could get out of the Le Guin I read, there's no humor there, so...

Frank Herbert, yeah! I tried and tried with his Dune series,and just could not connect, whatsoever, although I *really* liked David Lynch's film, even if *he* didn't.

Lieber always felt like a lightweight--his cheerful buddy-movie of a series about those two guys was mostly good for male adolescents, I think.

I could like some of Bradbury's stuff--Martian Chronicles, especially, but not a lot else. Too, Ballard's Vermilion Sands establishes a mood of profound modern decadence that is extremely effective, but beyond that, not much else to like, especially.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too, theme can make it hard for someone to connect
> with a given writer. For me, a great example is
> Howard. What he seems to me to be doing is very
> similar to what Nietzsche was doing, which is to
> say they both recognize a very basic, and by
> today's standards, brutal, reality that's
> hardwired into the human animal. This is simply a
> recognition of the existence of the alpha male,
> and his place in the evolution of human social
> organization.
>
> Howard goes on to glorify this, mythologize it,
> and Nietzsche--florid stylist that he is--come off
> as being an apologist, whereas to me, this
> phenomenon (male drive to power) is simply like
> being an omnivore--it just *is*, so what? It (male
> aggression, not being an omnivore...;^) ) may
> evolve away from having any reproductive value--in
> fact it sure looks like it's in the process--and
> will become something like the appendix.
>
> So on this reason, alone, Howard is out, for me.

I guess this is primarily a description of the CONAN stories, and there is some truth to it, though I'm not sure it is a 100% fair description even of them, or at least not of all of them. There are a number of stories in which Conan (I guess mainly an older Conan) shows signs of having a conscience and some level of humility.

Outside of the Conan stories, Solomon Kane may have many of the aspects of an alpha male in terms of physique and ability, but I'm not at all sure it can be said that his stories are about the "alpha male drive to power". It can perhaps be said that "The Worms of the Earth" is about the alpha male drive to power, but I think it can hardly be said that it glorifies it. It seemed to me more like a cautionary tale. Many of Howard's tales are horror tales in which any alpha male characteristics of the protagonist either take a back seat or are entirely absent. "The Black Stone" is a decent effort at Lovecraftian horror.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26 Apr 21 | 10:41AM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Too, theme can make it hard for someone to
> connect
> > with a given writer. For me, a great example is
> > Howard. What he seems to me to be doing is very
> > similar to what Nietzsche was doing, which is
> to
> > say they both recognize a very basic, and by
> > today's standards, brutal, reality that's
> > hardwired into the human animal. This is simply
> a
> > recognition of the existence of the alpha male,
> > and his place in the evolution of human social
> > organization.
> >
> > Howard goes on to glorify this, mythologize it,
> > and Nietzsche--florid stylist that he is--come
> off
> > as being an apologist, whereas to me, this
> > phenomenon (male drive to power) is simply like
> > being an omnivore--it just *is*, so what? It
> (male
> > aggression, not being an omnivore...;^) ) may
> > evolve away from having any reproductive
> value--in
> > fact it sure looks like it's in the
> process--and
> > will become something like the appendix.
> >
> > So on this reason, alone, Howard is out, for
> me.
>
> I guess this is primarily a description of the
> CONAN stories, and there is some truth to it,
> though I'm not sure it is a 100% fair description
> even of them, or at least not of all of them.
>
> Outside of the Conan stories, Solomon Kane may
> have many of the aspects of an alpha male in terms
> of physique and ability, but I'm not at all sure
> it can be said that his stories are about the
> "alpha male drive to power". It can perhaps be
> said that "The Worms of the Earth" is about the
> alpha male drive to power, but I think it can
> hardly be said that it glorifies it. It seemed to
> me more like a cautionary tale. Many of Howard's
> tales are horror tales in which any alpha male
> characteristics of the protagonist either take a
> back seat or are entirely absent. "The Black
> Stone" is a decent effort at Lovecraftian horror.

Yes, you are right that I mainly was exposed to the Conan stuff, and to the Kull and Bran Mak Morn. I will give some of the other stuff a try again. I don't have any negative impressions of his style of expression, just the theme.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan throws a knife to kill a female tribe member who was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate. They are going to burn her to death, and pity takes hold.

I can recall a sort speech by a tribal leader, about how this was to teach everyone a lesson. Now here's an impression that sticks with me: the monolog was stilted. I'm now thinking that a lot of Howard's expressive style was somewhat stilted. By stilted, I mean that he expressed the story using a tone a lot ike a formal oral storyteller--which is valid in the era, but awfully tough on the (mind's) ear, after a while.

Is this a fair assessment? I can't remember all that well.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I will prime the ol' discussion
> pump, and invite stoning,
>
> As in the P. T. Andersen film, "There Will Be
> Blood"...
>
> > > Let's see. Clarke (with a "e", thanks, Knygatin!) seems to me sterile.


Ya Callin' me sterile?! Huh?! HUH?!! ; [ ]

HAH!!!

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan
> throws a knife to kill a female tribe member who
> was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate. They
> are going to burn her to death, and pity takes
> hold.

I actually don't recall that scene. Generally, I recall that, particularly in certain stories where Conan is a King of Aquilonia, he is less of an alpha male force of nature, and more of a human being, with a sense of responsibility to his subjects. For instance (IIRC), "The Phoenix on the Sword".

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ballard's Vermilion Sands establishes a mood of
> profound modern decadence that is extremely
> effective,

Thanks, Sawfish. Never read Ballard. But this one sounds a little bit like my cup of tea. I just downloaded it a moment ago on audiobook from Youtube.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan
> > throws a knife to kill a female tribe member
> who
> > was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate.
> They
> > are going to burn her to death, and pity takes
> > hold.
>
> I actually don't recall that scene. Generally, I
> recall that, particularly in certain stories where
> Conan is a King of Aquilonia, he is less of an
> alpha male force of nature, and more of a human
> being, with a sense of responsibility to his
> subjects. For instance (IIRC), "The Phoenix on
> the Sword".


I haven't enjoyed Conan since high school, but I always found the stories in which he was king the most enjoyable. His loathing of royal duties, high culture, and sedentary existence, combined with his reluctant yet fiery devotion to responsibilities, makes him a slightly more introspective and complex character than usual. Makes me think of Gilgamesh from that famous epic.

I should re-read Howard's Solomon Kane stories and see how they hold up. The idea of a puritan traveling the world to eradicate sin, only to doubt the existence of his God as he encounters increasingly vile and strange things, has potential. But I don't remember the stories very well, so it's possible they're just a lot of hacking and slashing and brooding! Howard wrote some convincing wild men, and I think the pacing in his horror stories was gripping, but he counts as one of those authors who don't really "click" with me.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ballard's Vermilion Sands establishes a mood of
> > profound modern decadence that is extremely
> > effective,
>
> Thanks, Sawfish. Never read Ballard. But this one
> sounds a little bit like my cup of tea. I just
> downloaded it a moment ago on audiobook from
> Youtube.

I hope you like it! Very strange vibe.

If/when you do read it, let us know what you think.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan
> > throws a knife to kill a female tribe member
> who
> > was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate.
> They
> > are going to burn her to death, and pity takes
> > hold.
>
> I actually don't recall that scene. Generally, I
> recall that, particularly in certain stories where
> Conan is a King of Aquilonia, he is less of an
> alpha male force of nature, and more of a human
> being, with a sense of responsibility to his
> subjects. For instance (IIRC), "The Phoenix on
> the Sword".

I now think that it was Kull, and not Conan. It has always been hard for me to keep Kull, Conan, and Bran Mak Morn straight.

I'll get some out of the library and check it out. Maybe I need to give it another chance. It's been 30 or more years, most likely.

BTW, did you ever read "The Barrow Troll"?

[baencd.freedoors.org]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
> I now think that it was Kull, and not Conan. It
> has always been hard for me to keep Kull, Conan,
> and Bran Mak Morn straight.

To me, Bran Mak Morn stands out from the others, since he is not really a hero, not even in the glorified anti-hero sense that Conan sometimes is. His one story as protagonist is a horror tale about a man who makes a Faustian bargain.

> I'll get some out of the library and check it out.
> Maybe I need to give it another chance.

I think you can still find most of his best work online. For instance, most of the Weird Tales issues can be found at archive.org, and his best known tales are all audiobooks on youtube. Published books will tend to supplement his best work with newly-copyrighted material. But there is no particular need to be a completist when it comes to Robert E. Howard. I do think his best work is worth reading, but the dross is quite skippable.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> > I now think that it was Kull, and not Conan. It
> > has always been hard for me to keep Kull,
> Conan,
> > and Bran Mak Morn straight.
>
> To me, Bran Mak Morn stands out from the others,
> since he is not really a hero, not even in the
> glorified anti-hero sense that Conan sometimes is.
> His one story as protagonist is a horror tale
> about a man who makes a Faustian bargain.
>
> > I'll get some out of the library and check it
> out.
> > Maybe I need to give it another chance.
>
> I think you can still find most of his best work
> online. For instance, most of the Weird Tales
> issues can be found at archive.org, and his best
> known tales are all audiobooks on youtube.
> Published books will tend to supplement his best
> work with newly-copyrighted material. But there
> is no particular need to be a completist when it
> comes to Robert E. Howard. I do think his best
> work is worth reading, but the dross is quite
> skippable.

I, too, worry about finding "the good stuff". Looking briefly at a few forums online, and Wikipedia, it sounds like he produced quite a lot of stuff in varied genres, including western.

Do you have any suggestions for some stories to read that are representative of his better efforts?

In college back in the late 60s, one of my room-mates was a big fan of Conan/Kull and I read some stuff but could not connect, so then we took to sniping at each other about it, in a sort of jocose collegiate way. Maybe this enhanced my negative impression.

Hah! The same room-mate introduced me to Fraser's Flashman series, which I *did* like...still do!

I mean, after reading *about* Howard, and excerpts from letters to HPL, he seems to me *more* interesting than his characters. He seems more of a complex personality than CAS, and at least as complex as HPL. HPL is pretty complex it seems to me.

Of the three, I'd say CAS was the most comfortable in his own skin by a long shot, then HPL, and finally Howard.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I heard someone make the connection between Ballard's Vermilion Sands and Jack Vance's Dying Earth, and that is what drew me to it. The decadence of life on old Earth, ... the same in Smith's Zothique, ... that attracts and fascinates me.

I listened to the first story in the audiobook collection, "Prima Belladonna". I don't think I quite grasped all the details (being unaccustomed to audiobooks), and it seemed surrealistic in approach too which demands a more open reader mind. I liked it in parts, especially the appearance of the exotic woman. (Her insect bug yes, not sure if that was a genetic mutation or a superficial fashion makeup.) The singing arachnid orchids were a little sketchy, but I may have missed some details. I will listen to more of the stories eventually, although the tone, and the character jargon, a little hard-boiled, was too modern and worldly for me to truly connect with. And compared to Vance's artistry I found it rather mediocre. I prefer the Faberge Egg worlds of Vance, in which every detail is sculpted, forming a unique parallel universe, where even the characters cannot be recognized from our world.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard someone make the connection between
> Ballard's Vermilion Sands and Jack Vance's Dying
> Earth, and that is what drew me to it. The
> decadence of life on old Earth, ... the same in
> Smith's Zothique, ... that attracts and fascinates
> me.
>
> I listened to the first story in the audiobook
> collection, "Prima Belladonna". I don't think I
> quite grasped all the details (being unaccustomed
> to audiobooks), and it seemed surrealistic in
> approach too which demands a more open reader
> mind. I liked it in parts, especially the
> appearance of the exotic woman. (Her insect bug
> yes, not sure if that was a genetic mutation or a
> superficial fashion makeup.) The singing arachnid
> orchids were a little sketchy, but I may have
> missed some details. I will listen to more of the
> stories eventually, although the tone, and the
> character jargon, a little hard-boiled, was too
> modern and worldly for me to truly connect with.
> And compared to Vance's artistry I found it rather
> mediocre. I prefer the Faberge Egg worlds of
> Vance, in which every detail is sculpted, forming
> a unique parallel universe, where even the
> characters cannot be recognized from our world.

Hi, K.

Thanks for your feedback. I've read the collection maybe 4-5 times, most recently a year ago.

It comes at the reader from a POV of people who live in a future resort, something like a more exclusive Palm Springs, and everything leads one to think that it *could* earth, except for things like sand rays, etc. So either future Earth or a parallel.

You can get the impression after reading more of them that things like the "insect eyes" may well be a very decadent form of cosmetic surgery that only the very most wealthy can afford and the self-indulgent would have done on themselves.

Or, alternatively, genetic manipulation for cosmetic reasons among the very wealthy and decadent.

The orchids I took to be a sort of expensive genetic manipulation for the amusement of the decadent rich.

These people who tell the stories are people who live off of catering to these wealthy, navel-gazing narcissists. They, too, have been corrupted, but are still near enough to "normal" wants/desires to be able to convey a sense of the separateness of the rich from themselves.

Like Fitzgerald's "Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me...".

It has the feel of a combo of Andy Worhol's social circle of the 70s/80s combined with Fellini's sensibilities in something like Juliette of the Spirits or Satyricon.

Very little is explained, much is suggested.

I hope it is not a waste of your time.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 27 Apr 21 | 06:41PM by Sawfish.

Thank you for the clarification, Sawfish. I think with Ballard, it is also very much a case of whether the reader connects with the tone and vision of the writing. Same with Vance of course, ... and C. A. Smith. And Tolkien. Tone and style is everything, when all comes around.

I have to admit that I too have difficulty connecting with R. E. Howard's writings, the monotony of his violent world view, although I am enormously impressed by his talent and intelligence and wisdom. He lacked a certain content enthusiasm for life (although I have not gone through his letters yet, which may prove me wrong), ... and sadly, I think there is the connection to his suicide. But he was one of the three literary giants of the Weird fiction era, together with Lovecraft and Smith, in the demigod ability to fully create worlds through the pen. Perhaps unequalled before or since.

Sawfish Wrote:
> Do you have any suggestions for some stories to
> read that are representative of his better
> efforts?

Well, for instance, have you read "The Worms of the Earth"? I did not read it until relatively recently, and was rather impressed with it.

But it may be that our tastes just differ. After all, I did enjoy most of Howard's Conan stories too, though that was longer ago.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to admit that I too have difficulty
> connecting with R. E. Howard's writings, the
> monotony of his violent world view, [...]

I agree with this to some extent. Except that I would not say I have trouble connecting. I can connect just fine, but I don't necessarily like the effect that it has on my mood if I take too much at a time. Rather, I would say that for me, Howard in modest doses is fine. But I would not want to binge on him, any more than I would want to binge on the hyper-morbidity of Clark Ashton Smith.

But the brutality of Howard's world view can be exaggerated and has been exaggerated. There is this famous quote associated with Conan: "What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women." This, however, is not from Howard's Conan -- it is not something he ever said, nor IMHO, ever would say.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have to admit that I too have difficulty
> > connecting with R. E. Howard's writings, the
> > monotony of his violent world view, [...]
>
> I agree with this to some extent. Except that I
> would not say I have trouble connecting. I can
> connect just fine, but I don't necessarily like
> the effect that it has on my mood if I take too
> much at a time. Rather, I would say that for me,
> Howard in modest doses is fine.

On reflection, yes I agree. No trouble connecting, and I don't feel bad about the violence either, ... but I find myself longing for other things, more variation, that he doesn't quite bring. The fantasy elements in the Conan stories are very repetitive, for example his monsters are usually - either a snake, a gorilla thing, or an evil demon spirit. I find that pretty dull. It seems he wants the stories to be historically plausible. (Solomon Kane has more variation. "Skulls in the Stars" with its partly Lovecraftian imagery, and "Wings in the Night" with its great monsters, are two favorites.) The focus is always on violence, and meeting a beautiful woman at the start, then proving himself worthy to her through battle, so he can finally embrace her by the end of the story. I wouldn't say that I get bored, because he is such a good writer, ... but often wish for reflective details that are less action and battle-oriented, more immersed in weird fantasy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Apr 21 | 02:38PM by Knygatin.

Platypus, thanks, I'll try it.

True, it could be all a matter of taste, but it's good to at least try out something that a seasoned reader of Howard's works (and other works) feels is at least sound.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fantasy elements in the Conan stories are very
> repetitive, for example his monsters are usually -
> either a snake, a gorilla thing, or an evil demon
> spirit. I find that pretty dull. It seems he wants
> the stories to be historically plausible. (Solomon
> Kane has more variation. "Skulls in the Stars"
> with its partly Lovecraftian imagery, and "Wings
> in the Night" with its great monsters, are two
> favorites.)

But on the other hand, Howard also had a genuine understanding of magics and ability to create a sense of supernatural forces, on a par with more subtle authors like Machen or Blackwood, but from his own prehistoric perspective. And he could invoke nightmarish quality - I remember "Red Nails" as being very creepy.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Ballard's Vermilion Sands
>
> You can get the impression after reading more of
> them that things like the "insect eyes" may well
> be a very decadent form of cosmetic surgery that
> only the very most wealthy can afford and the
> self-indulgent would have done on themselves.
>
> Or, alternatively, genetic manipulation for
> cosmetic reasons among the very wealthy and
> decadent.
>
>

I like the imaginative futuristic concept of it. Very bizarre. CREEPY. But ..., decadence or progress? The twisted perspectives in the minds of the future will decide that. Nature has always been an inspiration, in its colors and forms, for women's makeup and clothing. Metallic mascara, big flower hats, peacock feathers. In recent years, plastic surgery. Now then, one logical extension of this, to surgically or genetically alter the whole eye into the color and form of a beautiful bug, the angled legs replacing eye-lashes, ... I don't take it for completely improbable, seeing how quick human taste and values have changed (or been manipulated) over the last few decades.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Knygatin Wrote:
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > > Ballard's Vermilion Sands
> >
> > You can get the impression after reading more
> of
> > them that things like the "insect eyes" may
> well
> > be a very decadent form of cosmetic surgery
> that
> > only the very most wealthy can afford and the
> > self-indulgent would have done on themselves.
> >
> > Or, alternatively, genetic manipulation for
> > cosmetic reasons among the very wealthy and
> > decadent.
> >
> >
>
> I like the imaginative futuristic concept of it.
> Very bizarre. CREEPY. But ..., decadence or
> progress? The twisted perspectives in the minds of
> the future will decide that. Nature has always
> been an inspiration, in its colors and forms, for
> women's makeup and clothing. Metallic mascara, big
> flower hats, peacock feathers. In recent years,
> plastic surgery. Now then, one logical extension
> of this, to surgically or genetically alter the
> whole eye into the color and form of a beautiful
> bug, the angled legs replacing eye-lashes, ... I
> don't take it for completely improbable, seeing
> how quick human taste and values have changed (or
> been manipulated) over the last few decades.

See this:

[www.cbc.ca]

I've seen this, and more--much,much more--at the HPL Film Festival in Portland, OR. 5 inch blued steel needles that come thru the cheeks, emulating cat whiskers.

...or something...

In PDX I've seen people with their tongues tattooed, the whies of the eyes, apparently. Wait service people.

Do you suppose it might be hard for these folks to get a job?

Nahhh. How could it be...? Silly of me to even consider this.

I have no problem with accepting an unnamed place and time, in a speculative fiction collection of stories, peopled by individuals with seemingly limitless money and leisure time, to come up with insect eyes.

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> See this:
>
> [www.cbc.ca]
> et-the-b-c-man-who-uses-body-modifying-technology-
> to-enhance-physical-capabilities-1.4825085
>
> I've seen this, and more--much,much more--at the
> HPL Film Festival in Portland, OR. 5 inch blued
> steel needles that come thru the cheeks, emulating
> cat whiskers.
>
> ...or something...
>
> In PDX I've seen people with their tongues
> tattooed, the whites of the eyes, apparently. Wait
> service people.
>

Modern version of punk rock. Rebels who want to chock and are desperate to acquire a unique identity, more than an attempt at beauty. And not really the rich, but investing most of what they've got, and letting the rest deteriorate.
Parallel to this, collective society is being moved in an even more extreme direction, and I wouldn't be surprised if genus manipulations will eventually become mandatory, and calling oneself "normal" will be outlawed.

In Ballard's "Prima Belladonna" the insect eyes is perhaps something that truly means beauty among the rich and privileged, transcended deep into the culture, and enhances social status. It would mean that everything else in the culture is adapted along with it, making it perfectly normal and integrated. I would like to have a looking glass into a future like that.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > See this:
> >
> >
> [www.cbc.ca]
>
> >
> et-the-b-c-man-who-uses-body-modifying-technology-
>
> > to-enhance-physical-capabilities-1.4825085
> >
> > I've seen this, and more--much,much more--at
> the
> > HPL Film Festival in Portland, OR. 5 inch blued
> > steel needles that come thru the cheeks,
> emulating
> > cat whiskers.
> >
> > ...or something...
> >
> > In PDX I've seen people with their tongues
> > tattooed, the whites of the eyes, apparently.
> Wait
> > service people.
> >
>
> Modern version of punk rock. Rebels who want to
> chock and are desperate to acquire a unique
> identity, more than an attempt at beauty. And not
> really the rich, but investing most of what
> they've got, and letting the rest deteriorate.
> Parallel to this, collective society is being
> moved in an even more extreme direction, and I
> wouldn't be surprised if genus manipulations will
> eventually become mandatory, and calling oneself
> "normal" will be outlawed.

Well, yes. But I wasn't so much referring to these examples to see *who* would resort to extreme fashion statements so much as illustrating the extremes of fashion currently available.

But si far as the "tasteful" wealthy, have you even taken a close look at Nancy Pelosi or Cher?

>
> In Ballard's "Prima Belladonna" the insect eyes is
> perhaps something that truly means beauty among
> the rich and privileged, transcended deep into the
> culture, and enhances social status. It would mean
> that everything else in the culture is adapted
> along with it, making it perfectly normal and
> integrated. I would like to have a looking glass
> into a future like that.

The real point is that these people will spend any amount of money for anything that relieves their boredom--and there are those who make their livings catering to this.

Nor is it necessarily the height of fashion! It is even better to be marginally avant-garde--a trend-setter.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> But si far as the "tasteful" wealthy, have you
> even taken a close look at Nancy Pelosi or Cher?
>

I have seen Rachael Levine, the new minister of Health and Human Services.



> The real point is that these people will spend any
> amount of money for anything that relieves their
> boredom--and there are those who make their
> livings catering to this.
>
> Nor is it necessarily the height of fashion! It is
> even better to be marginally avant-garde--a
> trend-setter.

Yes, verily! You are right. There are many points of entrance to this. The avant-garde eccentrics have always liked to yell and rebel and make a scene. Personally, from my science fiction point of interest in this, and my main way of intellectually connecting, I am mostly fascinated with the idea if such eccentricities may transform our culture, and perspective on beauty, more fundamentally. Such a world would be much more bizarre than a few avant-gardes shouting in society.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > But si far as the "tasteful" wealthy, have you
> > even taken a close look at Nancy Pelosi or
> Cher?
> >
>
> I have seen Rachael Levine, the new minister of
> Health and Human Services.

Sweet Jesus!!!

I wish you hadn't shown me this, Knygatin!

>
>
>
> > The real point is that these people will spend
> any
> > amount of money for anything that relieves
> their
> > boredom--and there are those who make their
> > livings catering to this.
> >
> > Nor is it necessarily the height of fashion! It
> is
> > even better to be marginally avant-garde--a
> > trend-setter.
>
> Yes, verily! You are right. There are many points
> of entrance to this. The avant-garde eccentrics
> have always liked to yell and rebel and make a
> scene. Personally, from my science fiction point
> of interest in this, and my main way of
> intellectually connecting, I am mostly fascinated
> with the idea if such eccentricities may transform
> our culture, and perspective on beauty, more
> fundamentally. Such a world would be much more
> bizarre than a few avant-gardes shouting in
> society.

Hear! Hear!

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > But si far as the "tasteful" wealthy, have you
> > even taken a close look at Nancy Pelosi or
> Cher?
> >
>
> I have seen Rachael Levine, the new minister of
> Health and Human Services.
>
>
>
> > The real point is that these people will spend
> any
> > amount of money for anything that relieves
> their
> > boredom--and there are those who make their
> > livings catering to this.
> >
> > Nor is it necessarily the height of fashion! It
> is
> > even better to be marginally avant-garde--a
> > trend-setter.
>
> Yes, verily! You are right. There are many points
> of entrance to this. The avant-garde eccentrics
> have always liked to yell and rebel and make a
> scene. Personally, from my science fiction point
> of interest in this, and my main way of
> intellectually connecting, I am mostly fascinated
> with the idea if such eccentricities may transform
> our culture, and perspective on beauty, more
> fundamentally. Such a world would be much more
> bizarre than a few avant-gardes shouting in
> society.


I believe that beauty is a real thing, a true category of reality, but that other factors are liable to be involved also with people's responses to how other people look. These include social status, the desire for attention, the appetite for short-lived novelty, and more.

Stalking Cat is an example.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Because S. C. so well represents so much foolishness characteristic of our time, I think his visage should appear on our $500 bills. (McKinley's already got a mountain named after him.) Mr. Cat's appeal is likely to be particularly strong among people who have too much money for their own good already, and, on the other hand, it's unlikely young children would see his hideous face and have their imaginations blighted forever.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > But si far as the "tasteful" wealthy, have
> you
> > > even taken a close look at Nancy Pelosi or
> > Cher?
> > >
> >
> > I have seen Rachael Levine, the new minister of
> > Health and Human Services.
> >
> >
> >
> > > The real point is that these people will
> spend
> > any
> > > amount of money for anything that relieves
> > their
> > > boredom--and there are those who make their
> > > livings catering to this.
> > >
> > > Nor is it necessarily the height of fashion!
> It
> > is
> > > even better to be marginally avant-garde--a
> > > trend-setter.
> >
> > Yes, verily! You are right. There are many
> points
> > of entrance to this. The avant-garde eccentrics
> > have always liked to yell and rebel and make a
> > scene. Personally, from my science fiction
> point
> > of interest in this, and my main way of
> > intellectually connecting, I am mostly
> fascinated
> > with the idea if such eccentricities may
> transform
> > our culture, and perspective on beauty, more
> > fundamentally. Such a world would be much more
> > bizarre than a few avant-gardes shouting in
> > society.
>
>
> I believe that beauty is a real thing, a true
> category of reality, but that other factors are
> liable to be involved also with people's responses
> to how other people look. These include social
> status, the desire for attention, the appetite for
> short-lived novelty, and more.
>
> Stalking Cat is an example.
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> Because S. C. so well represents so much
> foolishness characteristic of our time, I think
> his visage should appear on our $500 bills.
> (McKinley's already got a mountain named after
> him.) Mr. Cat's appeal is likely to be
> particularly strong among people who have too much
> money for their own good already, and, on the
> other hand, it's unlikely young children would see
> his hideous face and have their imaginations
> blighted forever.

NOOO!

Take it away!

(See what I mean about insect eyes, K? Small bananas, huh?)

Extra points, boys and girls:

Describe in moderate detail the kind of society in which Stalking Cat could survive for longer than two weeks.

Special cosideration is given if you can make a plausible explanantion of why, given that he/she/it has indeed survived longer than two week, S.C. also has a Wikipeia page.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was doing a further comment about our most recent discussion, but I just can't bring myself to post it. The subject is too painful and decadent.

Instead I'll shortly comment Frank Herbert's Dune. I tried reading it in my upper teens, but couldn't possibly get into it, too much abstract political intrigue for my young mind to get its head around. Also I only had the ugly New English Library edition that didn't inspire me at all. But I read Dune as adult some 10 years ago, and found it very good, with interesting weird elements, and quite epic. Definitely worthwhile. This time around I had a much nicer edition, and that helped me to take the plunge. The book perfectly complements David Lynch's masterful film.

It’s always delightful to come across somebody else who appreciates that much-maligned movie. I saw a 70 mm exhibition of it in Amsterdam a couple of years ago and it was aesthetic bliss. I appreciate the book largely because of the movie, which I learned to appreciate as a kid largely because of the comic book. Culture finds all sorts of vectors for infecting us.

The novel eventually became one of my favourite books. Stylistically, it is atrocious, but I love how imaginative and eclectic it is. The appendix entitled “Terminology of the Imperium” is one of my favourite weird reads. Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles indeed.

The movie manages to improve on Herbert’s execrable prose a great deal. Compare the simple, elegant opening line of the movie,

“A beginning is a very delicate time”,

to the monstrosity that opens the book:

“A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct”.

Yikes!

The National Lampoon parody Doon (1984) by Ellis Weiner does a terrific job skewering Herbert’s style:

Quote:

In the week before their departure to Arruckus, amid the hurly and the burly of the moving and the grooving, did an old woman come to planet Cowboydan to visit the mother-adult of the boy-child, Pall.
Her journey, via Schlepping Guild ’Ighliner, had been a difficult one. There had been turbulence in the Nether Region -- the Guild navigators had found it necessary, not only to fold space, but to trim it and shove it as well. She entered Castle Agamemnides in foul humor.
She was escorted into living room Agamemnides, where waited the Lady Jazzica, wife to the boy-child’s man-father, Duke Lotto Agamemnides.
“I would see the boy, Jazzica,” the crone rasped.
“I’ll ... fetch him, Your Revved-Uppedness,” Jazzica replied.
Jazzica curtseyed and left. As befitted her Boni Maroni training, she made optimum use of the walk to the boy’s bedroom to think about what was happening that very instant in the times of her life.
She comes to administer the Test, she thought. He is capable, my son, and should perform admirably. Yet even the capable are capable -- of failure!
This stabbed a single question unbidden at her consciousness. Has Pall applied to a backup school?
Jazzica sought desperately to conceal her fear, lest her son perceive it and grow thus himself likewise afraid like her, too. She called upon her Boni Maroni training in body- and mind-control, the dual and complimentary disciplines known as yogi-bear and yogi-berra, to master her roiled emotions, reinstate the rationality of calm.
She arrived at his door, knocked, was admitted, entered.
Pall sat at his desk, a filmbook open before him. Jazzica noted his eyes, with their eyebrows and lids and accompanying nose, mouth, and ears.
He is like his father in that, she thought.

Avoosl, thanks!

The ideas of "the living room Agamemnides", and having a back-up school really tickle me. Lots of other stuff, too.

Have you read National Lampoon's Bored of the Rings?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, I found Bored of the Rings very amusing as well. I think it has more jokes than Doon that have aged poorly since it was written, because they were based on advertising slogans and the like, and Tolkien’s style is so bland it’s impossible to do a good pastiche of it, but one truly great joke always stuck with me:

Quote:

“For Arrowroot,” she said, “crown jewels,” and handed the surprised king a diamond-shaped pear and a plover’s egg the size of an emerald.

This is soon followed by this mystical elven song:

Quote:

“Dago, Dago, Lassi Lima rintintin
Yanqui unicycle ramar rotoroot
Telstar aloha saarinen cloret
Stassen camaro impala desoto?
Gardol oleo telephon lumumba!
Chappaqua havatampa muriel
U canleada horsta wata, bwana,
Butyu canna makit drinque!

Comsat melba rubaiyat nirvana
Garcia y vega hiawatha aloo.
O mithra, mithra, I fain wud lie doon!
Valdaree valdera, que sera, sirrah,
Honi soit la vache qui rit.
Honi soit la vache qui rit.”

“Honi soit la vache qui rit” -- LOL!

Refers to the laughing cow cheese morsels, or at least the cow image with the ear-ring, but I'm unsure of "Honi" part.

Reading quickly thru the rest, it's like a sort of collage of terminology that was instantly recognizable for college age kids of the time.

E.g., "Stassen camaro impala desoto?" is a senator and three American cars.

So you liked the idea that in a Lower Middle Earth tavern you could order an Orca Cola?

That the Boggies refer to normally sized people derisively as "biggers"?

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Honi soit qui mal y pense is the motto of the Order of the Garter.

I guess the “biggers” joke wouldn’t fly anymore nowadays, but screw political correctness. In my view, any joke that makes you laugh is a good joke and satire should be transgressive. I grew up on MAD Magazine, and even though their humour was usually quite mild, they made fun of everything and everyone, which is as it ought to be.

Same here, Avoosl.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The movie manages to improve on Herbert’s
> execrable prose a great deal. Compare the simple,
> elegant opening line of the movie,
>
> “A beginning is a very delicate time”,
>

AAAAHH! God!! The most beautiful and evocative opening of all films ever made, both visually and verbally! GOD! And then follows the pan over the sand dunes, with music that cannot be surpassed. And it goes on and on.

Likewise, Salem's Lot (1979), The Fog (1980), and Alien (1979), are movies that never grow old on me. Soo much soul.

I agree with you Avoosl. I also found the book weaker in some aspects, not as effective as Lynch's genius. And visual language is perhaps not Herbert's strongest talent either. (He was a journalist from the start, and they are often wordy without much fine-tuning ability.) But all the same, it has a lot of greatness.

K, I will assume that you've seen Mulholland Drive.

The narrative structure of the film, including initial framing, multiple POVs from unreliable sources anda bit of traditional objective omniscient, creates the kind of mental exercise that I really enjoy.

At the end, after viewing a few times and *really* watching, you can see the story emerge. It is that directed artistic ambiguity that is so rarely found, and so rewarding when you do happen upon it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Multiple points of view...

I expect to give this novel

[en.wikipedia.org].

Instance of the Fingerpost a try before long. Isn't than an intriguing title? The book will be an interlibrary loan copy and so protected from being thrown at the wall if the author should be guilty of anachronisms. I hope good things. I've been delving into 17th-century history and literature for several years now (in my opinion a much more interesting century than Lovecraft's beloved 18th century).

--Oh, I see I wasn't posting on the Super Thread, where a tangent such as this might better belong; but the remark about multiple points of view made me think of this book, which I hope will turn up this week.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2 May 21 | 01:50PM by Dale Nelson.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> K, I will assume that you've seen Mulholland
> Drive.
>
> The narrative structure of the film, including
> initial framing, multiple POVs from unreliable
> sources anda bit of traditional objective
> omniscient, creates the kind of mental exercise
> that I really enjoy.
>
> At the end, after viewing a few times and *really*
> watching, you can see the story emerge. It is that
> directed artistic ambiguity that is so rarely
> found, and so rewarding when you do happen upon
> it.

I saw it just now. Have not seen it in full before, but remember the scene where they find the dead girl, which disturbed me greatly. It literally made me jump back in terror. I must have turned off the film at that point, but it was long ago and I don't quite remember the situation. I had seen Blue Velvet in the 1980s, and so I knew David Lynch was capable of realistic horror that don't suit my sensitivities at all. So I guess I didn't want to expose myself to that again. I prefer horror to be modulated through fantasy.

A very sad film from many aspects, and a highly unpleasant ugly setting. I was very concentrated and took the challenge of trying to grasp the whole film; but after the "magic" blue box suddenly appeared in her purse, it was too difficult to untangle directly. A ghost-story film? Or symbolic surrealism, perhaps not intended to make full sense in every detail, but retain some mystery? The movie is like an ordered deck of cards, that suddenly gets shuffled. And that is quite sensible, since life really isn't linear, at least not inside our minds; different times get mixed up, and replay over each other.

I guess the basic message is that Hollywood is grandiose rubbish, full of ruthless evil people, and that innocent naïve individuals with dreams and expectations, will get misled, confused, and hurt there.

I liked best the early scene in which the director meets the man with the big cowboy hat up on the hill. The man's authority was truly weird. It gave shivers along my spine.

Quote:

K:
I liked best the early scene in which the director meets the man with the big cowboy hat up on the hill. The man's authority was truly weird. It gave shivers along my spine.

Me, too! Me, too!

He really had no respect for a smart alec, huh?

"If you do well, you'll see me one more time. If you don't do well, you'll see me two more times....".

All vague menace.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple points of view...
>
> I expect to give this novel
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> ingerpost#:~:text=An%20Instance%20of%20the%20Finge
> rpost%20is%20a%201997,of%20the%20characters%2C%20a
> ll%20of%20them%20unreliable%20narrators.
>
> Instance of the Fingerpost a try before long.
> Isn't than an intriguing title? The book will be
> an interlibrary loan copy and so protected from
> being thrown at the wall if the author should be
> guilty of anachronisms. I hope good things. I've
> been delving into 17th-century history and
> literature for several years now (in my opinion a
> much more interesting century than Lovecraft's
> beloved 18th century).
>
> --Oh, I see I wasn't posting on the Super Thread,
> where a tangent such as this might better belong;

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,..."

:^)

> but the remark about multiple points of view made
> me think of this book, which I hope will turn up
> this week.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > K, I will assume that you've seen Mulholland
> > Drive.
> >
> > The narrative structure of the film, including
> > initial framing, multiple POVs from unreliable
> > sources anda bit of traditional objective
> > omniscient, creates the kind of mental exercise
> > that I really enjoy.
> >
> > At the end, after viewing a few times and
> *really*
> > watching, you can see the story emerge. It is
> that
> > directed artistic ambiguity that is so rarely
> > found, and so rewarding when you do happen upon
> > it.
>
> I saw it just now. Have not seen it in full
> before, but remember the scene where they find the
> dead girl, which disturbed me greatly. It
> literally made me jump back in terror. I must have
> turned off the film at that point, but it was long
> ago and I don't quite remember the situation. I
> had seen Blue Velvet in the 1980s, and so I knew
> David Lynch was capable of realistic horror that
> don't suit my sensitivities at all. So I guess I
> didn't want to expose myself to that again. I
> prefer horror to be modulated through fantasy.
>
> A very sad film from many aspects, and a highly
> unpleasant ugly setting. I was very concentrated
> and took the challenge of trying to grasp the
> whole film; but after the "magic" blue box
> suddenly appeared in her purse, it was too
> difficult to untangle directly. A ghost-story
> film? Or symbolic surrealism, perhaps not intended
> to make full sense in every detail, but retain
> some mystery? The movie is like an ordered deck of
> cards, that suddenly gets shuffled. And that is
> quite sensible, since life really isn't linear, at
> least not inside our minds; different times get
> mixed up, and replay over each other.

I had to read some interpretive sites and test out some of their hypotheses. The one that worked for me, as a key, is that at the very beginning of the film is a gunshot. Then the narrative that we see begins.

At the end of the narrative, which bifurcates in its telling into two radically different stories of the same sequence of events--mutually exclusive, really--there is a suicide by gunshot.

This is the same gunshot that the movie began with.

Now be forewarned: I'm working from memory, and it was never all that good, and especially now that it has some years on it, but the key to understanding the narrative is to understand how the very beginning and the very end fit together, and what is therefore implied.

And the two diverging tellings of the same story--Roshomon-like--are the idealized story versus the realistic story. The tension between the idealized and the realistic caused the suicide. Realizing this can generate a load of pathos in the viewer afterward.

K., I'm not suggesting that you re-watch it because it's not in your wheelhouse, as you've made clear--and the film is, after all, for your personal enjoyment. But the assembly of the narrative is very nifty if you like deconstructing complete systems to see how they work as they do.

So there's the visceral, emotional enjoyment, and the intellectual, mechanistic enjoyment.

There is a *lot* of stuff written about MD--lots of it is the typical jerk-off pseudo-intellectual mumbo-jumbo that you'd expect from fanboys (whew! pretty direct, huh? :^) ) but there's enough to begin to see a structure that one might never get, even from multiple viewings. You (and me) would be distracted by things like The Cowboy...

This would then mean to me that the film is one for students and not necessarily for casual viewers--although Lynch, always attuned to how to give the audience something they want that is very easy to digest and provides immediate gratification, so as to get the audience to stick around long enough to view the next complex sequence, gives us lesbian sex between two very attractive females.

...just like he had Patricia Arquette nude in Lost Highway just as much as he reasonably could...Isabella Rosellini in Blue Velvet.

But his central payload is certainly extremely artistic and largely works at a level beneath the conscious--he flirts with the viewers' id a great deal.

To me he is a great master of cinematic artistry. His creative impetus is unabashedly intuitive and he has a great deal of confidence in it. He created clunkers, for sure (Wild at Heart, Lost Highway), but they are *very special* clunkers.

I mean, the general consensus is that Dune is a clunker, but I respectfully disagree, as I know you do.

>
> I guess the basic message is that Hollywood is
> grandiose rubbish, full of ruthless evil people,
> and that innocent naïve individuals with dreams
> and expectations, will get misled, confused, and
> hurt there.

Maybe, but I don't see him as moralistic AT ALL. He is in a sense a cheerful amoral cynic. He is giving us very artistic freak shows. This is not a simple, crudely constructed paper mache "Jake, the Alligator Man", but instead he exhibits a multiracial live sex act between two sets of Siamese twins, where tie twins, themselves are composed of one of each sex/gender.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

But seriously, Lynch is not about teaching moral lessons, in my opinion. Not at all.

>
> I liked best the early scene in which the director
> meets the man with the big cowboy hat up on the
> hill. The man's authority was truly weird. It gave
> shivers along my spine.

I think that in a Lynch film not all of the scenes are necessarily there to advance the plot (the one at the corral above Hollywood is--and dig this! a corral within shouting distance of the Viper Room, in contemporary LA--what an image!) but he uses some weird scenes simply to manipulate the viewers' mood to set up what comes next. A great example is the girl with grotesque, lumpy cheeks singing sincerely in Eraserhead.

WTF?

You know what would be a very Lynchian true story for him to film, like Elephant Man? The Tate murders by the Manson family. In 2019 I stumbled over the up-and-coming Tarantino film, which capitalized on the 50th anniversary, and read a couple of forums dedicated to it for about two months (85% obsessed weirdos, in my opinion--all of whom are likely still posting today, just as they had been for the previous 10 years), and gradually absorbed what it was all about, how/where it unfolded, and it was pure Lynch, in my opinion.

I realize that this is divergent and am willing to continue on the big catch-all superthread.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think not I have the energy, or ability, to go into a deeper artistic discussion about Mulholland Drive. But I think I may very well re-watch it on a later occasion, after it has sunk in more. I think I remember the sequences pretty well, but I can't for all of me remember there was a gunshot at the beginning!

Quote:

Sawfish wrote:
--Roshomon-like--are the idealized story versus the realistic story. The tension between the idealized and the realistic caused the suicide. Realizing this can generate a load of pathos in the viewer afterward.

Much so. Thinking about it specifically, I feel the pathos very strongly. At the start of the film, I didn't think I would muster up much empathy for that cheerful young actress arriving in Hollywood, but the failings of her alter ego played out in her parallel identity is so devastatingly dark and depressing.

Quote:

Sawfish wrote:
Lynch, always attuned to how to give the audience something they want that is very easy to digest and provides immediate gratification, so as to get the audience to stick around long enough to view the next complex sequence, gives us lesbian sex between two very attractive females.

I did not see it that way at all. I found those lesbian scenes annoying, and sadly disturbing. Yet another example of the unpleasant downhill Hollywood lifestyle (either Lynch fell for that lure, or he deliberately used it to heighten the focus on decadence; I believe the latter. It may also have been orders from the producers, which I think Lynch has been subjected to like most other directors in Hollywood). I feel that the naive young actress was seduced into that by the much more experienced local actress who was used to the decadent nihilist polygamy lifestyle of Hollywood. Not a very good way to start off her budding film career; and the realistic story version shows the fatal consequences.

Quote:

Sawfish wrote:
Maybe, but I don't see him as moralistic AT ALL. He is in a sense a cheerful amoral cynic.

That might not be you? :)
I agree that Lynch is probably not a Moralist. But still, he undoubtedly sees the darkness in Hollywood, and portrays it.

Knygatin Wrote:
> (Solomon
> Kane has more variation. "Skulls in the Stars"
> with its partly Lovecraftian imagery, and "Wings
> in the Night" with its great monsters, are two
> favorites.)

I think I enjoyed Solomon Kane more than Conan. REH seemed to like the character as well, judging by the fact that he wrote three Solomon Kane poems. "Wings of the Night" was deliriously brutal.

Hespire Wrote:
> I should re-read Howard's Solomon Kane stories and
> see how they hold up. The idea of a puritan
> traveling the world to eradicate sin, only to
> doubt the existence of his God as he encounters
> increasingly vile and strange things, has
> potential.

Not much of doubting the existence of God. Nor for Solomon, anyhow. I'm a less sure about R.E.H., but whatever his religious beliefs or lack thereof, I don't think the "problem of Evil" was a concern for him.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't think I would muster up much
> empathy for that cheerful young actress arriving
> in Hollywood, but the failings of her alter ego
> played out in her parallel identity is so
> devastatingly dark and depressing.

I suspect it’s the other way round: the ‘alter ego’ is the real girl. The cheerful, successful actress is her fantasy version of herself.

> I feel that the naive
> young actress was seduced into [lesbian sex]
> by the much more experienced local actress
> who was used to the
> decadent nihilist polygamy lifestyle of Hollywood.

The lesbian sex with beautiful Betty that we get to see is the girl’s fantasy. In reality she had a very plain-looking girlfriend, the one who comes by to collect some stuff after their implied break-up.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > I feel that the naive
> > young actress was seduced into
> > by the much more experienced local actress
> > who was used to the
> > decadent nihilist polygamy lifestyle of
> Hollywood.
>
> The lesbian sex with beautiful Betty that we get
> to see is the girl’s fantasy. In reality she had
> a very plain-looking girlfriend, the one who comes
> by to collect some stuff after their implied
> break-up.

Excellent observation! I didn't think about that, still thought they only had switched apartments.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I didn't think I would muster up much
> > empathy for that cheerful young actress
> arriving
> > in Hollywood, but the failings of her alter ego
> > played out in her parallel identity is so
> > devastatingly dark and depressing.
>
> I suspect it’s the other way round: the ‘alter
> ego’ is the real girl. The cheerful, successful
> actress is her fantasy version of herself.
>
> > I feel that the naive
> > young actress was seduced into
> > by the much more experienced local actress
> > who was used to the
> > decadent nihilist polygamy lifestyle of
> Hollywood.
>
> The lesbian sex with beautiful Betty that we get
> to see is the girl’s fantasy. In reality she had
> a very plain-looking girlfriend, the one who comes
> by to collect some stuff after their implied
> break-up.


FWIW, that's essentially how I saw the narrative, as well.

A desperate rationalization of her failure to make it big in Hollywood, ending in suicide.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...MUCH CUT

Quote:

Sawfish:
Maybe, but I don't see him as moralistic AT ALL.
He is in a sense a cheerful amoral cynic.

>
> That might not be you? :)

I'll cop to "cheerful, amoral *realist*"... ;^)

I'd be a cynic if I actually expected anything other than what I'm seeing. Was the kid who said, aloud, "Mommy, why is the emperor naked?" a cynic?

That's all I'm ever really doing, Knygatin.

> I agree that Lynch is probably not a Moralist. But
> still, he undoubtedly sees the darkness in
> Hollywood, and portrays it.

Who *doesn't* see it? It's one of the oldest popular cliches of the 20th-21st C. It was old when Nathaniel West wrote about it in the 1920s.

The attraction is not to have this re-affirmed, but to voyeuristictly peek at *how* this affects a selected individual in the narrative.

E.g., does it...AHEM!...drive them to lesbian sex with another attractive character?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think not I have the energy, or ability, to go
> into a deeper artistic discussion about Mulholland
> Drive. But I think I may very well re-watch it on
> a later occasion, after it has sunk in more. I
> think I remember the sequences pretty well, but I
> can't for all of me remember there was a gunshot
> at the beginning!
>
>
> --Roshomon-like--are the idealized story versus
> the realistic story. The tension between the
> idealized and the realistic caused the suicide.
> Realizing this can generate a load of pathos in
> the viewer afterward.
>
> Much so. Thinking about it specifically, I feel
> the pathos very strongly. At the start of the
> film, I didn't think I would muster up much
> empathy for that cheerful young actress arriving
> in Hollywood, but the failings of her alter ego
> played out in her parallel identity is so
> devastatingly dark and depressing.
>

Quote:

Sawfish:
Lynch, always attuned to how to give the audience
something they want that is very easy to digest
and provides immediate gratification, so as to get
the audience to stick around long enough to view
the next complex sequence, gives us lesbian sex
between two very attractive females.

>
> I did not see it that way at all.

Well, I think that we're not talking about mutually exclusive attributes, here. It's possible to feature a lesbian sex scene with two attractive actresses--which is guaranteed to generate a certain sort of interest--AND for the fact of this encounter to generate pathos, on consideration of what it means in the narrative.

All this means is that it's arguably not entirely gratuitous, included solely to titillate the audience.

> I found those
> lesbian scenes annoying, and sadly disturbing. Yet
> another example of the unpleasant downhill
> Hollywood lifestyle (either Lynch fell for that
> lure, or he deliberately used it to heighten the
> focus on decadence; I believe the latter. It may
> also have been orders from the producers, which I
> think Lynch has been subjected to like most other
> directors in Hollywood).

And it's not for nothing that I listed at least two other instances of Lynch employing this device (nudity, and/or the sex act) in other films, and by god, having Patricia Arquette perform fellatio on a Mafioso, at gunpoint, topless, sure seemed gratuitous to me. I couldn't see where it advanced the plot, or character development, at all.

But yep, I watched it all right. All 6 times that I watched the film... ;^)

So yeah, I'll stick with the idea that Lynch cheerfully uses sex as a component of his films, often, and for no other reason than he knows that people respond to it, if indeed they are capable of any response, at all.

Now, *that's* cynical...

I mean, Kubrick also did this, at least twice. Opening of Clockwork Orange, and the ritual and subsequent extended orgy in Eyes Wide Shut.

Look what's there, right in front of your eyes. Are not the emperor's new clothes truly fine? ;^)

> I feel that the naive
> young actress was seduced into that by the much
> more experienced local actress who was used to the
> decadent nihilist polygamy lifestyle of Hollywood.
> Not a very good way to start off her budding film
> career; and the realistic story version shows the
> fatal consequences.
>
> Maybe, but I don't see him as moralistic AT ALL.
> He is in a sense a cheerful amoral cynic.
>
> That might not be you? :)
> I agree that Lynch is probably not a Moralist. But
> still, he undoubtedly sees the darkness in
> Hollywood, and portrays it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think Sawfish and Avoosl observed this better than I was able, in that the successful actress is a pure fantasy of the real girl. That may be Lynch's overall intention.

But there exist after all successful actresses in Hollywood, that correspond to the cheerful girl in the first half of the movie. To only see her as a fantasy, is a materialistic and purely psychological interpretation of the movie. It is one interpretation, and a perfectly sensible one. But the movie could also be interpreted in a more mystical way, taking place in spiritual dimensions, with parallel soul manifestations coexisting in multiple dimensions.

Anyhow, the mystical multiple dimension interpretation is how I prefer to connect to the movie. At least at this stage. I am allergic to the materialistic and worldly in all of its forms.

Poe asked if all life is but a dream: A Dream Within a Dream

Olaf Stapledon speculated in Star Maker whether our lives and daily activities within our houses, is but a dream and an illusion.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyhow, the mystical multiple dimension
> interpretation is how I prefer to connect to the
> movie. At least at this stage. I am allergic to
> the materialistic and worldly in all of its forms.

Seems fine to me.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is then the magic dimension-travel box also a fantasy of the "real" girl? I don't think so. And the demon trashman behind the diner who first(?) handled the box? And the man in the diner, who had the horrible vision? Also part of the real girl's fantasy?

I think the "real" girl committed suicide simply because her life in Hollywood was a failure. The suicide could hardly have been excused through such a delirious advanced fantasy. I don't think she fantasized the lesbian affair with the beautiful rich woman. She was a pretty but ordinary girl, who was sexually used, something which is common in Hollywood.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the "real" girl committed suicide simply
> because her life in Hollywood was a failure. The
> suicide could hardly have been excused through
> such a delirious advanced fantasy. I don't think
> she fantasized the lesbian affair with the
> beautiful rich woman.

Let's unwind this, if you don't mind.

Let's see: Avoosl says that the girl who came back for her belongings after they had "excahnged" apartments was her lover. You're sayng (and now I'm recalling that I came to the same conclusion) that she was used by a more successful and beautiful woman, sorta as a toy.

Could be both, huh?

She was living with the other girl, got seduced and lied to by the attractive woman, booted her regular lover, then got dumped. Her entire manufactured fanatasy world crashed--no jobs, no beautiful lover, no regular lover, ad all of the ego-crushing baggage that goes with this.

She sought revenge by hiring a killer, if I recall. This then leads to the "blue box".

> She was a pretty but
> ordinary girl, who was sexually used, something
> which is common in Hollywood.

I'll have to see it again, but I think one way to view the overall structure of the narrative is something like An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, but with the frame in reverse order.

Seriously. Flip the gunshot at the beginning and so that the gunshot occurs at the end, followed by the drop to the pillow, and the entire fantasy as grimly compared to the mundane and tawdry reality, and the sequence ran in her head *just before* she pulled the trigger. It is what led up to the suicide.

That can account for the narrative sequence. As to the unaccountable foreshadowing of finding her own body somewhere in the narrative, I can't account for that part. I'd have to see it again, and even afterward, I *still* might not be able to account for it.

Let's see--the hairy thing behind the diner--I can recall working on that and coming up with something that satisfied me, and with the blue key, it seems like the key was the signal that the murder she had arranged of her lover had actually taken place: the hired killer had said something like "There's no going back on this once I start. When you see the blue key in your room, this means the jobs is done". This then turned into a blue box, in her fantasy. It triggered the realization that she had indeed had her killed, with the resultant guilt and emotional load that led to suicide. Pushed her over the edge.

All from memory. Likely mangled somewhat. I mean, I suppose I could look online, but I don't like being externally influenced in coming to conclusions, so I minimize it where possible. It is all but impossible to not have external influences, but I want to "own" the reasoning behind my conclusions. It's the only way I can understand them.

I hope Avoosl comments. I feel that he has a good grasp on what I recall to be the way the narrative plays out.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Let's unwind this, if you don't mind.
>
> Let's see: Avoosl says that the girl who came back
> for her belongings after they had "excahnged"
> apartments was her lover. You're sayng (and now
> I'm recalling that I came to the same conclusion)
> that she was used by a more successful and
> beautiful woman, sorta as a toy.
>
> Could be both, huh?
>
> She was living with the other girl, got seduced
> and lied to by the attractive woman, booted her
> regular lover, then got dumped. Her entire
> manufactured fanatasy world crashed--no jobs, no
> beautiful lover, no regular lover, ad all of the
> ego-crushing baggage that goes with this.
>
> She sought revenge by hiring a killer, if I
> recall.

Yes, it could be both. She dumped her old girlfriend, to be with the successful beautiful woman. And got used and dumped herself.

I agree so far.

But what did the bum killer do? He shot some longhaired guy in an office, and screwed it up with other accidental killings. I didn't understand what that was about.
The beautiful rich woman was supposed to have been killed by her chauffeurs at the beginning of the movie, but a car crash put a stop to that.

Are you sure there was a gunshot at the beginning? I don't remember hearing it.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But what did the bum killer do? He shot some
> longhaired guy in an office, and screwed it up
> with other accidental killings. I didn't
> understand what that was about.
>

It seems the longhaired guy had organized the killing of the beautiful woman, and was then double-crossed by the bum killer so he wouldn't have to pay him for the job.

Crime is not my favorite genre. I have not read any crime books! It is a world very foreign to my way of thinking. :)

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you sure there was a gunshot at the beginning?
> I don't remember hearing it.

I just re-watched the beginning. There is heavy breathing (but no picture). Either the girl has just shot herself and pulls her last breaths, or she is about to commit suicide.
After that the movie switches into the "idealized" reality, which is the girl's fantasy the way you see it (or spiritual drifting into the other parallel dimension, the way I see it).

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are you sure there was a gunshot at the
> beginning?
> > I don't remember hearing it.
>
> I just re-watched the beginning. There is heavy
> breathing (but no picture). Either the girl has
> just shot herself and pulls her last breaths, or
> she is about to commit suicide.
> After that the movie switches into the "idealized"
> reality, which is the girl's fantasy the way you
> see it (or spiritual drifting into the other
> parallel dimension, the way I see it).

Let's see, the important part as I understood it is that the very beginning--the heavy breathing, although my memory plays tricks with me--was immediately followed, without any transition or explanation, to the happy young actress arriving in LA, where she'd live at her aunt's nifty garden apartment.

Or did it go to the darkhaired actress who was supposed to be killed, and who wandered down from the hills to the apartment. At what point did the two connect?

Then the end has a gunshot and a sort of drop to the pollow, or something like this.

The aunt, by the way, seemed like a sort of Hollywood idea of what a nice wealthy aunt would be.

O'm vaguely remembering the inept killer killing a guy in an office somewhere, but is there a sort of exchange where a guy who is a killer-type (not necessarily the inept guy) who tells the blonde "I'll leave a blue key on your coffee table. That's how you'll know it's done."

Again, I hope Avoosl helps out here, not in support of me (it could be in support of you, that would be fine by me) I just want to recall it better.

I'm recalling that the blue key/blue box thingie was pivotal.

I don't see anywhere I can watch it without paying, so it's unlikely I will for the present.

BTW, does the Cowboy have any function except as adding color and emphasizing that the director must choose a certain girl? I think that the failure blonde actress wanted to believe that she had lost a part due to unfair external influence.

I really like stuff like this--unreliable POV. It's tricky, though, because if the character is not defined well, it becomes a fig leaf for pure junk. To me, this is done well.

Oscar in The Tin Drum.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's see, the important part as I understood it
> is that the very beginning--the heavy breathing,
> although my memory plays tricks with me--was
> immediately followed, without any transition or
> explanation, to the happy young actress arriving
> in LA, where she'd live at her aunt's nifty garden
> apartment.
>
> Or did it go to the darkhaired actress who was
> supposed to be killed, and who wandered down from
> the hills to the apartment. At what point did the
> two connect?
>

First the darkhaired actress (not sure the movie says she is an actress, but she belongs to the wealthy and glamorous anyhow) is going down the hill, and hiding in the apartment. Then the happy actress arriving in LA, finding the other in her shower.

>
> O'm vaguely remembering the inept killer killing a
> guy in an office somewhere, but is there a sort of
> exchange where a guy who is a killer-type (not
> necessarily the inept guy) who tells the blonde
> "I'll leave a blue key on your coffee table.
> That's how you'll know it's done."

That is the same guy.

>
> I'm recalling that the blue key/blue box thingie
> was pivotal.
>

The weirdly shaped blue key and box was the beautiful woman's "key" into the "realistic" dimension. When she opened the box and looked, she was sucked into it.
The more ordinary blue key was the girl's "key" into the "idealized" dimension. Through murder and her subsequent suicide.

>
> BTW, does the Cowboy have any function except as
> adding color and emphasizing that the director
> must choose a certain girl? I think that the
> failure blonde actress wanted to believe that she
> had lost a part due to unfair external influence.

May be so.

>
> I really like stuff like this--unreliable POV.
> It's tricky, though, because if the character is
> not defined well, it becomes a fig leaf for pure
> junk. To me, this is done well.

Yes, done well, although I am not certain a logical explanation was necessarily intended for all of it. Like when the two of them find the dead girl; that can only be explained by a brush meeting of parallel dimensions.

> Again, I hope Avoosl helps out here, ...

We have our own Mulholland Drive here ... at the Eldritch Dark.

Yes, we sure do!

K, you have used the term "parallel universe", etc., and it connotes an actual physical parallel universe in the manner of sci-fi convention.

Is this what you actually mean--SF-like parallel universe? I am using a term more like "altered psychological state", technically, a "fugue state", experienced by the blonde failed actress.

If the former (SF parallel universe) you are of course free to choose this interpretation--art is, after all, interpreted by the consumer of art. That's valid.

But there'd be reasons why I could not personally consider a "parallel universe" interpretation as opposed to "fugue state".

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am flattered by your appeal to my supposed authority, guys, but I‘m basically as baffled as you are by this movie and certainly am no arbiter of anything in the world of art.

I personally think that basically all the “good” things that happen to the main character are a fantasy, while the bad stuff is all real:

Small-town girl wins dancing contest and uses the prize money to go to Hollywood. There, she has a relationship with another girl, which ends badly, and fails to become a star. She kills herself. The End. The audience is presented with her fantasies on the same level of reality as her real life (excellent reference to “An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge”, Sawfish!).

I also think that the “hired killer”, “cowboy”, “pool guy infidelity” and “creep behind the Dumpsters” (and how very creepy he/she/it is!) subplots are vestigial remains of Lynch’s original intention to present Mulholland Dr. as a TV series, making the movie a kind of pilot.

Personally, I am quite comfortable with loose ends in art. In fact, I suspect that the greatest works always have one or two irregularities, like the superfluous foot in Bruegel’s Peasant Wedding.

Another example would be the use of of the words “perne” and “gyre” in Yeats’s “The Second Coming”. Why use such incomprehensible words in an otherwise perfectly lucid poem? (This is not a rhetorical question, BTW.)

Or consider Shelley‘s “Ozymandias”:

The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed

is hardly grammatical, and I fail to see how its ungrammaticality adds anything to the quality of the poem. But it’s there. And the poem is still great.

One last example (I realise I’m not answering anyone’s questions here): in Terry Gilliam’s divine movie Time Bandits, at one point a piece of Sellotape can be seen during a special-effects sequence. In Gilliam’s Criterion Collection director’s commentary, he points out that he explicitly did not want that to be digitally brushed out for the DVD release. That’s the mark of a real artist, IMHO.

As Paul Valéry put it: “A work is never completed, but merely abandoned”.

David Lynch’s movies are full of Sellotape.

Silencio!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 May 21 | 03:43PM by Avoosl Wuthoqquan.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am flattered by your appeal to my supposed
> authority, guys, but I‘m basically as baffled as
> you are by this movie and certainly am no arbiter
> of anything in the world of art.
>
> I personally think that basically all the
> “good” things that happen to the main
> character are a fantasy, while the bad stuff is
> all real:
>
> Small-town girl wins dancing contest and uses the
> prize money to go to Hollywood. There, she has a
> relationship with another girl, which ends badly,
> and fails to become a star. She kills herself. The
> End.

Yes, this is the story as I see it.

> The audience is presented with her fantasies
> on the same level of reality as her real life
> (excellent reference to “An Occurrence at Owl
> Creek Bridge”, Sawfish!).
>
> I also think that the “hired killer”,
> “cowboy”, “pool guy infidelity” and
> “creep behind the Dumpsters” (and how very
> creepy he/she/it is!) subplots are vestigial
> remains of Lynch’s original intention to present
> Mulholland Dr. as a TV series, making the movie a
> kind of pilot.

Yes, and it's impressive that he was able to salvage as much of it and meld it into a tantalizing film, one that we're having fun discussing almost 20 years later.

>
> Personally, I am quite comfortable with loose ends
> in art. In fact, I suspect that the greatest works
> always have one or two irregularities, like the
> superfluous foot in Bruegel’s Peasant Wedding.

Huh.

My interpretation is that while Bruegel was painting it, from real life models, one of them, Hans, was quite short, but primarily past his adolescent growth spurt. A nice lad, however.

One of his patrons came to his studio while he was working on that section, and the gentleman said, "Hans is a nice lad; too bad he's so short. He may yet grow several inches, but he won't grow another foot."

Bruegel, to twit the pompous git, later added the surplus foot to the painting.

>
> Another example would be the use of of the words
> “perne” and “gyre” in Yeats’s “The
> Second Coming”. Why use such incomprehensible
> words in an otherwise perfectly lucid poem? (This
> is not a rhetorical question, BTW.)

Great poem that encapsulates the moment we're living in, however!

"mere anarchy", indeed!

>
> Or consider Shelley‘s “Ozymandias”:
>
> The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed
>
> is hardly grammatical, and I fail to see how its
> ungrammaticality adds anything to the quality of
> the poem. But it’s there. And the poem is still
> great.

Oh, well, I see that as very much like Goldwyn's malapropisms, you know:

"Directors are the kind of people who bite the hand that lays the golden egg...".

or

"Include me out."

or

"A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's written on."

>
> One last example (I realise I’m not answering
> anyone’s questions here): in Terry Gilliam’s
> divine movie Time Bandits, at one point a piece of
> Sellotape can be seen during a special-effects
> sequence. In Gilliam’s Criterion Collection
> director’s commentary, he points out that he
> explicitly did not want that to be digitally
> brushed out for the DVD release. That’s the mark
> of a real artist, IMHO.

Of the Ed Wood level.

>
> As Paul Valéry put it: “A work is never
> completed, but merely abandoned”.
>
> David Lynch’s movies are full of Sellotape.
>
> Silencio!

:^)

Fun discussion!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> K, you have used the term "parallel universe",
> etc., and it connotes an actual physical parallel
> universe in the manner of sci-fi convention.
>
> Is this what you actually mean--SF-like parallel
> universe? I am using a term more like "altered
> psychological state", technically, a "fugue
> state", experienced by the blonde failed actress.
>
> If the former (SF parallel universe) you are of
> course free to choose this interpretation--art is,
> after all, interpreted by the consumer of art.
> That's valid.
>

I don't like to use the term SF here, since that implies the movie concerns time- or dimension-travel based on human science. The blue box, though, may possibly be interpreted as a science fiction gadget. But I don't put much weight on that particular detail. From the story's perspective the box is more of a fantasy element, a magic box, or merely a symbolic narrative tool.

I like to interpret the movie from a spiritual perspective. Concerning reincarnation, or rather, spiritual drifting between parallel existences. And that may be closely related to "altered psychological state". Or extension of it. It depends on where one comes from philosophically/religiously, whether one is a mechanistic materialist or believes there is also a spiritual element to existence. I believe there is a spiritual element to existence/reality. (Perhaps in the future science and the spiritual will meet in a mutual explanation.)

I bet books have been written about this movie. I have not looked into that, nor have I seen other discussions about this movie.

I hope David Lynch, if he reads here, in my Mulholland twilight zone, will comment this. Although I am not sure that would make us any wiser.

I saw an interview with Lynch, when he had made Eraserhead and about the audience's reactions. And he said something like, there is no right or wrong interpretation, since there was no definite rational intention behind it, it was my inner needs of expression that came out; it is what it is.

Although more structured, I think Mulholland Drive may work along similar lines too. An abstract piece of art, a symbolic expression, surrealistic view of life. It may work as a dream too, therefore lacking real structure, plucking essences and recombining them. It tells of the thin line between between happiness and misery, life's breathing between light and darkness, that interchanging which we cannot escape.

It should be seen with an open flexible, lively mind, not an angular rational mind.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > K, you have used the term "parallel universe",
> > etc., and it connotes an actual physical
> parallel
> > universe in the manner of sci-fi convention.
> >
> > Is this what you actually mean--SF-like
> parallel
> > universe? I am using a term more like "altered
> > psychological state", technically, a "fugue
> > state", experienced by the blonde failed
> actress.
> >
> > If the former (SF parallel universe) you are of
> > course free to choose this interpretation--art
> is,
> > after all, interpreted by the consumer of art.
> > That's valid.
> >
>
> I don't like to use the term SF here, since that
> implies the movie concerns time- or
> dimension-travel based on human science. The blue
> box, though, may possibly be interpreted as a
> science fiction gadget. But I don't put much
> weight on that particular detail. From the story's
> perspective the box is more of a fantasy element,
> a magic box, or merely a symbolic narrative tool.

Agreed.

I think the blue box/key symbolizes:

"And everything changes starting now, and there's no going back...".

>
>
> I like to interpret the movie from a spiritual
> perspective. Concerning reincarnation, or rather,
> spiritual drifting between parallel existences.
> And that may be closely related to "altered
> psychological state". Or extension of it. It
> depends on where one comes from
> philosophically/religiously, whether one is a
> mechanistic materialist or believes there is also
> a spiritual element to existence. I believe there
> is a spiritual element to existence/reality.
> (Perhaps in the future science and the spiritual
> will meet in a mutual explanation.)
>
> I bet books have been written about this movie. I
> have not looked into that, nor have I seen other
> discussions about this movie.

Tons and tons written about this film, K. I succumbed to the temptation to see other interpretations and was staggered.

>
> I hope David Lynch, if he reads here, in my
> Mulholland twilight zone, will comment this.
> Although I am not sure that would make us any
> wiser.

Hah!

Again, if I had a wish, I wish he'd do the Manson/Tate murders.

The most significant attribute about the incident, if told as a narrative, is the setting at 10050 Ceilo Drive. That forum of kooks who make a hobby of the murder has all kinds of photos of the house/lot, and it's easy to study Google maps and old property records back to the first owner.

Now, no ghost stuff here. The actual impact is that the house was within shouting distance of Sunset Blvd, yet isolated on a hillside on such a way that it was cut off from any easy view or ability to monitor it.

This is just as mind-bending as the midnight corral in Mulholland Drive. How can there be such a thing as an isolated corral and the Capitol Records Building within a mile of each other, or less?

I do residential real estate as a sideline, and have for years. I like individual pieces of real estate in the same way that some posters here like certain editions of books. So looking at photos taken from the old (was torn down in 1998 and re-developed into what can only be described "Sodomite Palace"), the candid photos from the front of the house gave a sense of floating over the Sunset/Santa Monica corridor above Beverly Hills.

It was like a piece of personal paradise in the sky, isolated, private. The house was not sumptuous by any means--it was a simple ranch-style, maybe 2500 sq ft., but done by an architect so it was at least not a cookie-cutter. It was on a 3.5 acre hillside lot at the end of what had probably been its private 200 yard driveway when developed, but became an arm of the actual Ceilo Drive. In the middle of the sloping lot was a sort of notch or flat spot cut right into the middle of the slope, all by itself, facing out midway between the summit (probably nothing up above the when built) and the valley floor at Sunset.

Really unique real estate.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 10050 Ceilo Drive. ... it's easy to study Google maps and
> old property records back to the first owner.
>

> This is just as mind-bending as the midnight
> corral in Mulholland Drive.

Wasn't that a horse track? Surely there are people in LA who enjoy horse back riding in close quarters.

>
> I do residential real estate as a sideline, and
> have for years. I like individual pieces of real
> estate in the same way that some posters here like
> certain editions of books. So looking at photos
> taken from the old the candid photos from the
> front of the house gave a sense of floating over
> the Sunset/Santa Monica corridor above Beverly
> Hills.
>
> It was like a piece of personal paradise in the
> sky, isolated, private. The house was not
> sumptuous by any means--it was a simple
> ranch-style, maybe 2500 sq ft., but done by an
> architect so it was at least not a cookie-cutter.
>

It was a beautiful estate. A sumptuous version of "The Strange High House in the Mist".

Some of Smith's stories may also have attraction for architectural reasons. "The Double Shadow" for instance, an excellent example of prehistory California, in an outpost from Atlantis.

Perhaps you've had subscriptions to Architectural Digest and other magazines? Perhaps you can even help me locate a particular issue I saw in the 1980s but can't find again. It had a photo article about the private house of an interior decorator (who also designed Johnny Carson's home). The house was in Spanish style, the interior furnishing mostly done in different shades of browns and sands, with orchids in wicker pots on the tables, and big pots with palms in the courtyard. The most easily recognizable feature were two huge pieces of amethyst stones, one standing in the hall and the other in a back room.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 10050 Ceilo Drive. ... it's easy to study Google
> maps and
> > old property records back to the first owner.
> >
>
> > This is just as mind-bending as the midnight
> > corral in Mulholland Drive.
>
> Wasn't that a horse track? Surely there are people
> in LA who enjoy horse back riding in close
> quarters.

Plausibly, but it doesn't change the fact that you can ride horses in a semi-wild setting within .5 miles Rodeo Dr.

This is one of the things that's really interesting about LA. I've *felt* it ever since I was a little kid visiting it, saw Randy's Donuts, and had my mind blown forever. The sheer excessiveness of it, and the unexpected juxtapositions.

The huge stacks of bulldozed orange trees you could see from the Disneyland parking lot back when it first opened. I mean, I *grew up* on an orange grove! To see them uprooted en masse was very strange--not disturbing, but disorienting. something REALLY BIG was happening, you could tell...

Then, if you're read Nathanial West's Day of the Locust, and there is a stage extra cowboy and a Mexcan who have a "camp" not far up the hill behind the var/Glower area, and this has been whammo, right near Grauman's Chinese since forever.

Very strange juxtaposition. Perhaps it does not affect most people the way it does me.

>
> >
> > I do residential real estate as a sideline, and
> > have for years. I like individual pieces of
> real
> > estate in the same way that some posters here
> like
> > certain editions of books. So looking at photos
> > taken from the old the candid photos from the
> > front of the house gave a sense of floating
> over
> > the Sunset/Santa Monica corridor above Beverly
> > Hills.
> >
> > It was like a piece of personal paradise in the
> > sky, isolated, private. The house was not
> > sumptuous by any means--it was a simple
> > ranch-style, maybe 2500 sq ft., but done by an
> > architect so it was at least not a
> cookie-cutter.
> >
>
> It was a beautiful estate. A sumptuous version of
> "The Strange High House in the Mist".

Yes. In a sense this captures a part of it, for sure.

>
> Some of Smith's stories may also have attraction
> for architectural reasons. "The Double Shadow" for
> instance, an excellent example of prehistory
> California, in an outpost from Atlantis.
>
> Perhaps you've had subscriptions to Architectural
> Digest and other magazines? Perhaps you can even
> help me locate a particular issue I saw in the
> 1980s but can't find again. It had a photo article
> about the private house of an interior decorator
> (who also designed Johnny Carson's home). The
> house was in Spanish style, the interior
> furnishing mostly done in different shades of
> browns and sands, with orchids in wicker pots on
> the tables, and big pots with palms in the
> courtyard. The most easily recognizable feature
> were two huge pieces of amethyst stones, one
> standing in the hall and the other in a back room.

Mostly I'm a "location man". It is a gut reaction to a location and how it's utilized. When you actually stand on a site it conveys a feeling, then combine it with how the dwelling was adapted to the lot, or vice-versa.

This can be a wooded hillside, or a corner lot in downtown.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > > 10050 Ceilo Drive. ... it's easy to study Google
> > > maps and old property records back to the first owner.
> > >
> > > It was like a piece of personal paradise in the
> > > sky, isolated, private. The house was not
> > > sumptuous by any means--it was a simple
> > > ranch-style, maybe 2500 sq ft., but done by an
> > > architect so it was at least not a cookie-cutter.
> > >
> >
> > It was a beautiful estate. A sumptuous version of
> > "The Strange High House in the Mist".
>
> Yes. In a sense this captures a part of it, for
> sure.
>

It also reminds me of a cozy house (personal living quarters, combined with operative inn for space travelers) in Jack Vance's great novel Star King, built along a natural shelf between the sea and a ridge, on an otherwise vacant planet. Jack Vance was also a competent engineer, who built his own house to fit his fancy, from a combination of fine woods and cemented natural rocks, on a hill in Oakland.

I think it is the story in Mulholland Drive that bowl people over. They are generally impressed by the film because they can't grasp it. But compared to Dune it is cinematically inferior. Some of the shots are really slipshod. Much of it is filmed like soap opera or regular TV drama. It doesn't exactly have the photographic refinement of an Ingmar Bergman or Sven Nykvist, to put it drastically.

Speaking of Bergman, I am curious to know what CAS's impression was of The Seventh Seal. I assume he saw it. He should have been impressed by it poetically, although its Scandinavian ascetic artistic tone may be far removed from his own preference of perspective.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is the story in Mulholland Drive that
> bowl people over. They are generally impressed by
> the film because they can't grasp it.

That's right: it's intellectually challenging not so much in content, but in narrative structure and expository.

> But compared
> to Dune it is cinematically inferior. Some of the
> shots are really slipshod. Much of it is filmed
> like soap opera or regular TV drama. It doesn't
> exactly have the photographic refinement of an
> Ingmar Bergman or Sven Nykvist, to put it
> drastically.

There is nothing special about the camera work in Mulholland Drive. It's good to keep in mind that the material from which it was composed was shot for TV release, without the visual scope available to a theatrical release.

>
> Speaking of Bergman, I am curious to know what
> CAS's impression was of The Seventh Seal. I assume
> he saw it. He should have been impressed by it
> poetically, although its Scandinavian ascetic
> artistic tone may be far removed from his own
> preference of perspective.

Conveniently, the thread has to do with a failure to connect with an artist, and Bergman is one for me.

I've been trying to watch his films since the mid/late 60s, in film classes, as well as causally, always with the underlying idea that I was *supposed* to like his work. But he is as fully dry and barren as Fellini is vibrant and playful.

To me, anyway.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > > > 10050 Ceilo Drive. ... it's easy to study
> Google
> > > > maps and old property records back to the
> first owner.
> > > >
> > > > It was like a piece of personal paradise in
> the
> > > > sky, isolated, private. The house was not
> > > > sumptuous by any means--it was a simple
> > > > ranch-style, maybe 2500 sq ft., but done by
> an
> > > > architect so it was at least not a
> cookie-cutter.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It was a beautiful estate. A sumptuous version
> of
> > > "The Strange High House in the Mist".
> >
> > Yes. In a sense this captures a part of it, for
> > sure.
> >
>
> It also reminds me of a cozy house (personal
> living quarters, combined with operative inn for
> space travelers) in Jack Vance's great novel Star
> King, built along a natural shelf between the sea
> and a ridge, on an otherwise vacant planet. Jack
> Vance was also a competent engineer, who built his
> own house to fit his fancy, from a combination of
> fine woods and cemented natural rocks, on a hill
> in Oakland.

You've had a good look at 10050 Cielo?

Just in case, here's a sort of walkthru video taken in 1993. It really gives a good idea of how it was located on the hillside, and also the nature of the construction. The color, landscaping, etc., was pretty much the same as in 1969.

You'll note that it had a guesthouse, but as near as I can tell from building permits, it was fairly crudely put-together expansion of a sort of BBQ gazebo maybe in the 50s. Also, I think the pool was not original, but may have been added in the late 40s/early 50s.

It's really messy on the inside. It was at that time rented to a musician, the 9 Inch Nails guy.

The kitchen, bathrooms, etc., were certainly nothing special, and the best you can say for the general level of construction quality is that a lot of natural materials were used, which helped to make a fairly mundane ranch-style house into something a bit better.

And of course there were large windows, to take advantage of the view.

[www.youtube.com]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14 May 21 | 10:01AM by Sawfish.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> You've had a good look at 10050 Cielo?
>

Yes, I have seen some old photos of it on duckduckgo or google. I like its overall rustic look. The pool was also very nice. Lovely spot. Cary Grant and wife had their honeymoon there, and other stars also used it.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > You've had a good look at 10050 Cielo?
> >
>
> Yes, I have seen some old photos of it on
> duckduckgo or google. I like its overall rustic
> look. The pool was also very nice. Lovely spot.
> Cary Grant and wife had their honeymoon there, and
> other stars also used it.

I don't know much about it before Altobelli owned it (it was built for a French film star who was big in France, but never clicked here), but it looks to me like Altobelli ran it as a sort of vacation rental--just like you'd do a nice beach house--but it was for longer durations. He lived on and off in the guesthouse.

This is *exactly* the formula for how an investor in RE first gets started--buy a multi-tenant property and try to rent out the best parts for cashflow. Then lever up at any solid opportunity. Soon, the income properties are entirely independent--you live elsewhere and rent out all of it for cashflow. Then multiple such income properties...

Many of the furnishings were about what you'd expect in a vacation rental. Comfortable, but nothing special.

Quite isolated on the hillside.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Quite isolated on the hillside.


Yes, a really really lovely place for living in seclusion. ... Except for Manson. But I guess nothing is perfect. =/

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Quite isolated on the hillside.
>
>
> Yes, a really really lovely place for living in
> seclusion. ... Except for Manson. But I guess
> nothing is perfect. =/

Yep.

He didn't even know them. He had a grudge against the previous tenant, he had been up there at least twice before, when the previous tenant was there.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Conveniently, the thread has to do with a failure
> to connect with an artist, and Bergman is one for
> me.
>
> I've been trying to watch his films since the
> mid/late 60s, in film classes, as well as
> causally, always with the underlying idea that I
> was *supposed* to like his work. But he is as
> fully dry and barren as Fellini is vibrant and
> playful.
>
> To me, anyway.


I especially like The Seventh Seal, The Magician, Hour of the Wolf, Wild Strawberries, and also Fanny & Alexander (although having fine moments, I find this last brassy family odyssey a bit too overwhelming and grand, being emotionally a sprawling and demanding watch).

I have tried to watch Fellini, likewise with the idea that I *should* like his films. But they leave me even more confused than Mulholland Drive. I don't understand what's going on. People with inscrutable, perplexed faces (either joyful or sad, I can't tell which), looking like they had some important purpose, but behaving erratically, walking in purposeless directions leading nowhere, connecting and following seemingly impulsive incomprehensible social community streams and sudden appearing spectacles, children running shouting in and out of courtyards, waving laundry. I have not been able to memorize any titles.

My impressions only.

Knygatin, I think that the earlier one abandons the idea that certain works of art should be liked, the better. In my view, you should always try to engage with a work of art with as open a mind as possible, and not be dismissive beforehand, but if it doesn’t speak to you -- so be it.

(I say this as a Dutchman who is completely indifferent to Vincent van Gogh’s work.)

If I were to take a bunch of young kids to a museum, I would say to them: “Boys and girls, today we are going to spend a few hours looking at pictures. And the fun thing is that you are allowed to think and feel and say anything you want about them. Anything! On one condition: you have to take a good long close look at them first.”

As for Fellini, I love the second half of his oeuvre, when he gets really weird. Satyricon to me is one of the great science-fiction (yes, really) movies, which as someone who appreciates the Dune movie and Jack Vance you may want to give another chance.

As for Bergman, I have seen quite a few of his films, an even though they are always exceptionally well made (his sound design alone is worth a monograph), I rarely if ever connect with what they have to say. The religious doubt that many of his characters experience is irrelevant to someone with my background and philosophy, and too often the moral of his work (especially Fanny & Alexander and The Magic Flute) seems to be along the lines of: get drunk, stay drunk, and make as many babies as possible. As an alcoholic who feels there are too many people in the world, I find it difficult to identify with that perspective.

That being said, I think one of the hallmarks of great art (like Van Gogh’s, perhaps) is that it is worth engaging with even if it doesn’t appeal to you. Knowing what you don’t like is as meaningful (and useful!) as knowing what you do like.

Quote:

AW:
As for Fellini, I love the second half of his oeuvre, when he gets really weird. Satyricon to me is one of the great science-fiction (yes, really) movies, which as someone who appreciates the Dune movie and Jack Vance you may want to give another chance.

I was first attracted to the 2nd half, starting at Juliette of the Spirits and the one that speaks to me most clearly is Amarcord, one of his more accessible films. There's a lot about how I tend to see life in that one.

The earlier stuff I came to later, and can recommend La Strada and Nights of Cabiria. These are great humanist works in the post war neorealism style.

Sentimentalism is always present in these--he's an Italian, after all!--but mixed with pathos and earthy humor.

I think I've seen most of his major stuff, but there's still quite a bit I haven't seen--probably never will.

I really liked Wurtmueller, too, when she was on that roll: Love and Anarchy, The Seduction of Mimi, Swept Away, 7 Beauties.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Avoosl. I believe a combination of genetics and social background, very much shapes our taste in art; and that it pretty much is fixed. We can have an open mind, be curious, and learn from, ... but our intrinsic taste will be difficult to change.

Do you like Dario Argento too? I think Mario Bava is terrific (Black Sunday (1960), Black Sabbath (1963)). Moving a little further up north, how about French director François Truffaut? His Fahrenheit 451 (1966) is very interesting, although not as good as Bradbury's book.

Perhaps someone can help me identify a European film from the 1940's or 50's, in black and white. I saw it at a film festival when young, but have not been able to identify it since then. It is not a fantasy film, but one poetic moment a unicorn briefly appears from behind a hillock. I think it may be a French, Spanish, or possibly Italian film. For a while I thought it was by Jean Renoir, but having checked his films I think not.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for your thoughts on this, Avoosl. I
> believe a combination of genetics and social
> background, very much shapes our taste in art; and
> that it pretty much is fixed. We can have an open
> mind, be curious, and learn from, ... but our
> intrinsic taste will be difficult to change.
>
> Do you like Dario Argento too? I think Mario Bava
> is terrific (Black Sunday (1960), Black Sabbath
> (1963)).

They are sorta the Hammer Films/American International of Italy, as see them. Good cheap entertainment, though Suspira was something more.

> Moving a little further up north, how
> about French director François Truffaut? His
> Fahrenheit 451 (1966) is very interesting,
> although not as good as Bradbury's book.

With Oscar Werner in the lead, you can be sure it'll be mopey. It's like Truffaut dragged him over from Jules and Jim.

Someone like Rutger Hauer, however, would be different.

>
> Perhaps someone can help me identify a European
> film from the 1940's or 50's, in black and white.
> I saw it at a film festival when young, but have
> not been able to identify it since then. It is not
> a fantasy film, but one poetic moment a unicorn
> briefly appears from behind a hillock. I think it
> may be a French, Spanish, or possibly Italian
> film. For a while I thought it was by Jean Renoir,
> but having checked his films I think not.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin, it’s interesting that you mention genetics as possibly influencing our taste in art. I’d like to hear more about your thinking, as I have always regarded culture as exactly that: culture. Did you know that the finest performers of Western classical music have been coming from Asia for many years now?

Social background -- absolutely. I grew up in a household where books and reading were, well... normal. They were not idealised or put on a pedestal, but my parents were (and are) always in the middle of some book, and we were taken to the library or bookshop often, and my mother bought me quite a few books when I was a kid. That certainly lowered the threshold for getting into some serious reading later on. Interestingly (?), one of my brothers has remained an avid reader, while the other one hasn’t read a book since high school. So that may be genetics. (The non-reader happens to be the smartest of the three of us -- go figure.)

I’m not a fan of Argento. There’s no denying that some of his set pieces are very effective and original, and I love that Goblin music, but the incoherence of his movies annoys me. (Of course, one man’s incoherence is another man’s “dream logic”...) The one movie of his that I keep returning to -- largely for nostalgic reasons -- is The Beyond, which always fills me with a sense of promise at the start, and always disappoints, despite my having seen it many times.

Bava’s movies are among the best-looking ones I’ve ever seen, but also among the dullest. They make for good eye-candy to play on a big screen at a party, but that’s about it IMHO.

I am not well-versed in Truffaut, having only seen The 400 Blows and The Wild Child, both of which I enjoyed.

Your unicorn movie does not ring a bell, regrettably.

Avoosl, yes I think genetics is important, both racial and individual. It is our cultural heritage on several levels, and affects our outlook and perspective. We can inherit certain characteristics and personality traits from one or the other of our parents, or from our grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on. Some attributes may rest latent for generations, before resurfacing. Same with certain diseases, unfortunately. That is why siblings, while sharing much from both of their parents, may also be markedly different from each other in some aspects. But also, since the personality is complex and blends in its totality, it can be difficult to clearly define and sort out the individual aspects. Siblings may also share aspects not immediately noticeable, because these aspects are utilized in different ways and areas.

Some reviews I have read of Asian musicians, especially the Chinese, playing European classical music, is that they may be extremely technically proficient at doing it, but lack the soul. In other words, they are very good at imitating. I find it regrettable that they usurp Western culture instead of embracing their own rich heritage.

An interesting philosophical and sociological thread. I'd like to join in, below:

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl, yes I think genetics is important, both
> racial and individual. It is our cultural heritage
> on several levels, and affects our outlook and
> perspective. We can inherit certain
> characteristics and personality traits from one or
> the other of our parents, or from our
> grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on. Some
> attributes may rest latent for generations, before
> resurfacing. Same with certain diseases,
> unfortunately. That is why siblings, while sharing
> much from both of their parents, may also be
> markedly different from each other in some
> aspects. But also, since the personality is
> complex and blends in its totality, it can be
> difficult to clearly define and sort out the
> individual aspects. Siblings may also share
> aspects not immediately noticeable, because these
> aspects are utilized in different ways and areas.

Here's where I am now as regards culture/genetics, or more bluntly, culture/race.

I think that the largest part, by far, of those aspects we may object to in others is almost always personal behavior, and personal behavior is shaped by what passes for culture among various social groups.

So I'm saying this: race, as loosely defined as certain clusters of phenotypes shared widely among groups of differing geographical origins, certainly exists, and to me it's laughable--even insulting--to claim otherwise. Every argument against the recognition of "race" I've ever seen or read, from mere rabble rousers to "socially responsible" academics, is nothing more than an attempt to deny what is clearly before your own eyes--popularly labeled "race"--and has been similarly shared by all humans groups throughout all time.

They *all* notice race, and always have.

That said, I see physical differences between both individuals, and statistically between racial groups. And here's the most important part: for day-to-day interactions, these amount to very little--truly trivial--so long as large parts of a culture are shared, or if of separate cultures to which these racially diverse individuals belong, the cultures share the same values and at roughly the same priorities.

So yep there may be statistical differences in what portion of a racial group possesses the ability to detect perfect pitch, which ones withstand certain diseases better, which can complete a measured distance the fastest, and which can manipulate abstract concepts better. But face it: day-to-day this seldom comes into play, and if it does, there's also the significant chance that an individual from one group, G-1, performs measurably better on task X than does an individual from G-2--a group that *statistically* performs task X at a higher level than G-1.

So cutting to the chase: who cares about race? It's the color of your car, for all intents and purposes.

But culture, however...

If culture A has a deeply held tenet that child sacrifice is of the greatest importance, while culture B holds equally strongly that children are a gift from the divine and are to be treated appropriately, there'll be conflict. This conflict will have nothing to do with the "race" of the groups, but it will be over their esteemed values, and hence behaviors.

Groups tend to evolve in similar environments, which are often isolated, and these varied environments enforce physical adaptations on the groups, which over time is the basis for what are noted as racial differences. The longer these groups remain in relative isolation, the greater the potential for physical divergence from other, distant groups.

But each of these groups in isolation develop a code of behaviors and shared values, and this is "culture". Because it was developed in a relatively isolated group that had therefore evolved physical differences known as "race", the culture will *appear* to be congruent with race, but it is not. The connection is circumstantial, not causal.

And while the race of an individual is immutable, his/her culture is not. This can be affected at birth by foster placement into a household of a different culture (of the same or different race), or it can be voluntarily emulated by the individual, to a degree.

Hence "francophiles" and Eminem...go figger, huh? :^)

So really, to me, race means very little while culture means everything. And race remains, but culture is fluid, to a degree.

There. Now I'm glad that's all cleared up, aren't you? ;^)

>
>
> Some reviews I have read of Asian musicians,
> especially the Chinese, playing European classical
> music, is that they may be extremely technically
> proficient at doing it, but lack the soul. In
> other words, they are very good at imitating. I
> find it regrettable that they usurp Western
> culture instead of embracing their own rich
> heritage.

I'm not in the position to judge, and very few are, in my opinion--and fewer still will *honestly* judge. Nor do I deem it wise to listen to what they think if I, myself, cannot detect the difference when listening to the same piece, even with their input on what to note.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 16 May 21 | 10:02AM by Sawfish.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I’m not a fan of Argento. There’s no denying
> that some of his set pieces are very effective and
> original, and I love that Goblin music, but the
> incoherence of his movies annoys me. (Of course,
> one man’s incoherence is another man’s
> “dream logic”...) The one movie of his that I
> keep returning to -- largely for nostalgic reasons
> -- is The Beyond, which always fills me with a
> sense of promise at the start, and always
> disappoints, despite my having seen it many
> times.
>

I have not seen The Beyond. It seems to have been made by Lucio Fulci, another Italian director. It has a connection to Clark Ashton Smith, because it features the Book of Eibon.

I may have seen one film, at tops two, by Fellini, at a film club in my upper teens. Then I gave up.

But I did watch Satyricon a couple of days ago, mainly for study purpose. I can't say I like it. The hysteria, the irrational facial expressions, and lack of physical anchoring in the actors' movements. It chafes my senses. Extremely decadent and perverse, in more ways than one (with the demise of Rome, it figures. Still, Fellini, the liberal, really seems to like it.). I think this is one major reason why he is so praised by the critical establishment. I find Fellini to be anti-intellectual ─ passionate, and political, but led by feelings and impulses, instead of real analysis.

It is a visual feast, I'll admit to enjoying some of it from that aspect. And has some fine stage choreography. (The androgynous child was brilliantly conceived in all its decadence, ... and appropriately ill.) I agree that there are (purely coincidental) visual similarities to Jack Vance, in the colorful clothing and some of the bizarre characters. And the cripples remind me of Vance's semi-human creatures.

Richard Corben, on the other hand, was a fan of Fellini, and he has obviously taken a lot of inspiration from Satyricon. The film is very "Corbenesque". I am a fan of Corben (especially his early work from the 70s, before too many economic issues came into consideration). I also like Ingmar Bergman very much, but I don't imagine Corben did particularly, although he did borrow from The Seventh Seal. Strange lack of correlation, in crosswise inconsistency of taste.

I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that The Residents were inspired by some of the music for their record Eskimo.

K, do I understand that you think Fellini is political?

His early stuff is humanistic in the same sense that Steinbeck is humanistic--concerned with the human condition. Now I'll agree that the politically progressive movement is also concerned--although I'd call it *obsessed* with the human condition, but being aware of it and examining is one thing (like in La Strada), and then seeking to make prescriptive changes to society to "correct" what the observers views as shortcomings is another.

So I see Fellini as observing the human condition and leaving it at that in his earlier stuff, but from 8 1/2 onward, he not only observes, but makes fun of it.

And boy, oh boy. He lacks decorum. Does he ever...

I see no prescriptions for improvement, however, as I would expect in a film with an overt political statement, like with Gilliam's Brazil.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not seen The Beyond. It seems to have been
> made by Lucio Fulci, another Italian director.

Thank you for the correction; I misremembered.

> It
> has a connection to Clark Ashton Smith, because it
> features the Book of Eibon.

Very true. My nostalgia for it springs partially from playing what was then called a “text adventure” (nowadays we’d call it interactive fiction) inspired by the movie on my Commodore 64 as a boy. At one point in the game you find the Book of Eibon and the name just lodged itself in my mind forever.

Many years later, I discovered CAS because a quotation from ‘The Abominations of Yondo’ is used in the computer game NetHack. As I’ve said before: culture finds the strangest vectors to infect us. I actually have an edition of Dante’s Inferno that was published as a tie-in with a video game -- full-colour screenshots included with the Longfellow translation and its many excellent notes. The contrast is hilarious, and yet... I can imagine some fourteen-year-old stumbling upon it because of the video game, getting his first pleasurable taste of capital-L literature and maybe, just maybe, going looking for more.

Anyway, fast-forward another decade or so and a student of mine mentions “this obscure writer he really likes”. I intuitively (!) sense that he means CAS. (It’s always nice to meet young people who read adventurously.) A little later in the conversation, I ask him if “this guy Jack Vance” is any good. He replies in the affirmative, and -- BLAMMO! -- I’ve found myself a new favourite writer.

Vance has always been unusually popular in the Netherlands, incidentally. I’m not sure if the same applies to CAS, but the first story of his that I ever read was included in a vast Dutch-language horror anthology compiled by the redoubtable Erik Lankester which for some reason my parents had on their shelf (my father hating the horror genre because it scares him too much, my mother finding it risible nonsense). The story was ‘The Death of Ilalotha’, and even at the age of eleven or so I found its undercurrent of necrophilia profoundly disturbing.

> I find Fellini to be
> anti-intellectual - passionate, and political,
> but led by feelings and impulses, instead of real
> analysis.

I’m not sure about political -- I’ve never looked at his movies through that lens, but other than that I completely agree. It is telling to me that, when directing, he would actually act out the actors’ parts for them. Every character you see is basically him. Or a part of him. Or an aspect. Take your pick.

> I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that
> The Residents were inspired by some of the music
> for their record Eskimo.

That is fascinating to me. The Residents are my favourite band (if you can call them that). Do you have any more info on that?

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see no prescriptions for improvement, however,
> as I would expect in a film with an overt
> political statement, like with Gilliam's Brazil.

And now my favourite film gets a mention. This place is spooky sometimes...

It’s funny that the handful of us who have been doing so much conversing here lately have such different takes on life, the universe and everything, yet we seem to gravitate to the same books, movies and music. And creamed spinach -- yum!

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have not seen The Beyond. It seems to have
> been
> > made by Lucio Fulci, another Italian director.
>
> Thank you for the correction; I misremembered.
>
> > It
> > has a connection to Clark Ashton Smith, because
> it
> > features the Book of Eibon.
>
> Very true. My nostalgia for it springs partially
> from playing what was then called a “text
> adventure” (nowadays we’d call it interactive
> fiction) inspired by the movie on my Commodore 64
> as a boy. At one point in the game you find the
> Book of Eibon and the name just lodged itself in
> my mind forever.
>
> Many years later, I discovered CAS because a
> quotation from ‘The Abominations of Yondo’ is
> used in the computer game NetHack. As I’ve said
> before: culture finds the strangest vectors to
> infect us. I actually have an edition of Dante’s
> Inferno that was published as a tie-in with a
> video game -- full-colour screenshots included
> with the Longfellow translation and its many
> excellent notes. The contrast is hilarious, and
> yet... I can imagine some fourteen-year-old
> stumbling upon it because of the video game,
> getting his first pleasurable taste of capital-L
> literature and maybe, just maybe, going looking
> for more.
>
> Anyway, fast-forward another decade or so and a
> student of mine mentions “this obscure writer he
> really likes”. I intuitively (!) sense that he
> means CAS. (It’s always nice to meet young
> people who read adventurously.) A little later in
> the conversation, I ask him if “this guy Jack
> Vance” is any good. He replies in the
> affirmative, and -- BLAMMO! -- I’ve found myself
> a new favourite writer.
>
> Vance has always been unusually popular in the
> Netherlands, incidentally. I’m not sure if the
> same applies to CAS, but the first story of his
> that I ever read was included in a vast
> Dutch-language horror anthology compiled by the
> redoubtable Erik Lankester which for some reason
> my parents had on their shelf (my father hating
> the horror genre because it scares him too much,
> my mother finding it risible nonsense). The story
> was ‘The Death of Ilalotha’, and even at the
> age of eleven or so I found its undercurrent of
> necrophilia profoundly disturbing.
>
> > I find Fellini to be
> > anti-intellectual - passionate, and political,
> > but led by feelings and impulses, instead of
> real
> > analysis.
>
> I’m not sure about political -- I’ve never
> looked at his movies through that lens, but other
> than that I completely agree. It is telling to me
> that, when directing, he would actually act out
> the actors’ parts for them. Every character you
> see is basically him. Or a part of him. Or an
> aspect. Take your pick.
>
> > I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that
> > The Residents were inspired by some of the
> music
> > for their record Eskimo.
>
> That is fascinating to me. The Residents are my
> favourite band (if you can call them that). Do you
> have any more info on that?
>
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I see no prescriptions for improvement,
> however,
> > as I would expect in a film with an overt
> > political statement, like with Gilliam's
> Brazil.
>
> And now my favourite film gets a mention. This
> place is spooky sometimes...
>
> It’s funny that the handful of us who have been
> doing so much conversing here lately have such
> different takes on life, the universe and
> everything, yet we seem to gravitate to the same
> books, movies and music. And creamed spinach --
> yum!

Hah!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that
> > The Residents were inspired by some of the music
> > for their record Eskimo.
>
> That is fascinating to me. The Residents are my
> favourite band (if you can call them that). Do you
> have any more info on that?
>

It begins at about 1:42:40.



> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I see no prescriptions for [political] improvement, ...

Of course there are no such. Liberals and left wingers never have any well considered solutions. They only want to tear down what is good and natural and stable order, have free "humanism", social anarchy, and live out their lusts.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But face it: day-to-day this seldom comes into play,
> and if it does, there's also the significant
> chance that an individual from one group, G-1,
> performs measurably better on task X than does an
> individual from G-2--a group that *statistically*
> performs task X at a higher level than G-1.
>
> So cutting to the chase: who cares about race?
> It's the color of your car, for all intents and
> purposes.
>
> So really, to me, race means very little while
> culture means everything.
>
> There. Now I'm glad that's all cleared up, aren't
> you? ;^)
>
>

Whew! You have really tied yourself up into a tight PC knot, even attempting to parry for "the obvious that everyone sees", haven't you? :) But whatever makes you happy ...

However, my dear young man, I hate to be the one to bring the news to you, but you are out bicycling completely BACKWARDS, sitting on the handle and holding onto the seat, I am afraid.

Racial identity is far deeper and stronger than casually applied culture. Genetic heritage is more profound than superficial temporary culture. Race and original culture are intimately connected, both have developed through evolution in close relation to specific geography, climate, geological and biological conditions.

And racial phenotype is deeper than skin color, it applies through the whole anatomy, even the function of the brain. Individual exceptions from this does not make up for or exclude the general traits.

It's not a problem when, sporadically, individuals from different cultural/racial groups meet and choose to engage. It can happen to anyone. It is their own lives, their choice, and their responsibility. But it becomes a MAJOR PROBLEM when it is intentionally implemented on large scale (especially when the races/cultures are strongly divergent from each other), like in Europe today, where the Europeans, especially the North Europeans, are being replaced by Africans and Arabs (primarily Muslims) through politically dictated mass-immigration, motivated by an anti-white agenda. These people will take over Europe by sheer numbers flooding in, through their own high birth-rates, and by propaganda-induced racial mixing. A clashing and painful path of transformation, the downfall of one society replaced by another. Perhaps in the end they will have some kind of functional society of their own going (in all likelihood they will be slaves under the global ruling elite), but it will definitely NOT be the high European culture as we know it. The Men of a healthy people would strongly oppose this wholesale replacement of their own society/traditions/values/culture/race. The passive acceptance of it is a sign of (induced) decadence, being thoroughly taken in.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Residents are my
> favourite band ...
>

I have come to a stage where I must also say the same. Neil Young used to be my favorite rock star. I first listened to The Residents in 1979 or 1980, and did it partly out of youthful rebellion because they were so weird. But after a few years I rejected them, stopped listening, thinking it was socially harmful. It took another 20 years before I resumed listening to them again. This music, for me, has earlier not been about pleasant harmonies, like say the melodies of John Denver; but more comparable to the pleasure of scratching an itch, or picking on the scab of a half-healed wound. They have even been accused of earlier being commies, but then they turned into avid businessmen. Normally I am not very interested in avant garde in art, but with The Residents it is the creativity and rich imagination that attracts me. And getting to know more about the men behind the band, my sympathies have grown, consequently the weirdness has retracted into the background and I hear overall simply great music.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But face it: day-to-day this seldom comes into
> play,
> > and if it does, there's also the significant
> > chance that an individual from one group, G-1,
> > performs measurably better on task X than does
> an
> > individual from G-2--a group that
> *statistically*
> > performs task X at a higher level than G-1.
> >
> > So cutting to the chase: who cares about race?
> > It's the color of your car, for all intents and
> > purposes.
> >
> > So really, to me, race means very little while
> > culture means everything.
> >
> > There. Now I'm glad that's all cleared up,
> aren't
> > you? ;^)
> >
> >
>
> Whew! You have really tied yourself up into a
> tight PC knot, even attempting to parry for "the
> obvious that everyone sees", haven't you? :) But
> whatever makes you happy ...

K, you're the very first person who has ever identified me as either progressive or PC.

The first and only.

Now pause for a moment to consider the implications of that.

>
> However, my dear young man, I hate to be the one
> to bring the news to you, but you are out
> bicycling completely BACKWARDS, sitting on the
> handle and holding onto the seat, I am afraid.
>
> Racial identity is far deeper and stronger than
> casually applied culture. Genetic heritage is more
> profound than superficial temporary culture. Race
> and original culture are intimately connected,
> both have developed through evolution in close
> relation to specific geography, climate,
> geological and biological conditions.

These are all assertions, and as such are of no more value that my stated positions, K.

Please don't mistake your assertions for anything that has been in some way proved conclusively.

>
> And racial phenotype is deeper than skin color, it
> applies through the whole anatomy, even the
> function of the brain.

No one ever claimed otherwise, so far as I know.


> Individual exceptions from
> this does not make up for or exclude the general
> traits.

It's accurate to state that certain races statistically differ from each other in measurable ways, yes. I doubt anyone denies this, and if they did, I'd consider them dishonest, ill-informed, or both.

>
> It's not a problem when, sporadically, individuals
> from different cultural/racial groups meet and
> choose to engage. It can happen to anyone. It is
> their own lives, their choice, and their
> responsibility.

Agreed.

> But it becomes a MAJOR PROBLEM
> when it is intentionally implemented on large
> scale (especially when the races/cultures are
> strongly divergent from each other), like in
> Europe today, where the Europeans, especially the
> North Europeans, are being replaced by Africans
> and Arabs (primarily Muslims) through politically
> dictated mass-immigration, motivated by an
> anti-white agenda.

The nut of what you're saying is that involuntary and externally forced associations between two (or more) groups with irreconcilable value systems are disruptive and mutually unacceptable, and this is conforms with my own observations. But the most profound differences seem to be cultural differences rather the biological ones.

> These people will take over
> Europe by sheer numbers flooding in, through their
> own high birth-rates, and by propaganda-induced
> racial mixing. A clashing and painful path of
> transformation, the downfall of one society
> replaced by another. Perhaps in the end they will
> have some kind of functional society of their own
> going (in all likelihood they will be slaves under
> the global ruling elite), but it will definitely
> NOT be the high European culture as we know it.
> The Men of a healthy people would strongly oppose
> this wholesale replacement of their own
> society/traditions/values/culture/race. The
> passive acceptance of it is a sign of (induced)
> decadence, being thoroughly taken in.

It could happen.

And monkeys could come flying out of the Queen of England's derriere, too.

In short, K., I wouldn't bet on either: it's too early to tell for sure.

I think what you're doing is pretty much what I'm doing: basing your default positions on race/culture on your own not inconsiderable interactions with individuals of different races and cultures, and perhaps cross-referencing your experiences with statistical information.

Perhaps you've had college room-mates of differing races/ethnicities/religions, as I have, or maybe you worked for managers of different race and cultures, maybe working alongside peers of different backgrounds, extensively, as happens in software development. It may be that you've socialized frequently and regularly with other races/cultures and perhaps dated such individuals.

Maybe your experiences were different and not as generally positive as mine. Certainly, I'd hate to think you've had few--or even no--such personal experiences on which to base your opinions, relying instead on what you see on TV and read online.

Now for a quick litmus test, K. I've read The Bell Curve in its entirety once, and have referenced back thru it multiple times. You seem to think that you can somehow read my mind--knowing in advance what my positions are and why. That said, tell me what my opinion of the Bell Curve is, and why you suppose I hold them.

I eagerly await your response.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Residents are my
> > favourite band ...
> >
>
> I have come to a stage where I must also say the
> same. Neil Young used to be my favorite rock star.
> I first listened to The Residents in 1979 or 1980,
> and did it partly out of youthful rebellion
> because they were so weird. But after a few years
> I rejected them, stopped listening, thinking it
> was socially harmful. It took another 20 years
> before I resumed listening to them again. This
> music, for me, has earlier not been about pleasant
> harmonies, like say the melodies of John Denver;
> but more comparable to the pleasure of scratching
> an itch, or picking on the scab of a half-healed
> wound. They have even been accused of earlier
> being commies, but then they turned into avid
> businessmen. Normally I am not very interested in
> avant garde in art, but with The Residents it is
> the creativity and rich imagination that attracts
> me. And getting to know more about the men behind
> the band, my sympathies have grown, consequently
> the weirdness has retracted into the background
> and I hear overall simply great music.

Interesting description of their artistic apotheosis, as you have evolved to judge their work.

At some point I'll have ti give them another try. There are some artists who, by the very nature of their work, seem to evoke multiple responses in their "audience", and these responsess may be more commonly associated with a completely different *form*: e.g., Goya's Disasters of War evoke a feeling that one seldom, if ever, encounters in music, and yet it's possible for some very unconventional artists maybe sample it in their work. I have no examples of such, but it seems possible, at least.

So such artists not only defy genre labeling, but perhaps go further--they defy the expectations of the medium in which they create.

I'll end this post by briefly sharing a unique reaction to a work of sculpture I saw on display in the LA Museum of Art maybe 40 years ago.

There was a major exhibit, which is why we went, and after viewing it we walked past some other works unassociated with the theme of the exhibit.

We walked past a life-sized bronze sculpture of a nude woman. It was done by a German sculptor in the 1920s and after looking at it for a while, you could sense without doubt that the model had been the sculptor's lover. And boy, oh boy, it became increasingly evident that he was deeply, deeply in love with her.

It was a standing pose, relaxed, and yet modest. Her arms were semi relaxed and yet modestly protective of her nakeness. If life-size, she was a small, slim, delicately built young woman maybe 20 years old. There was a profound vulnerability and innocence and *sweetness* that became increasing clear as you viewed the sculpture.

I'm pretty far removed from sentimentality, but I was profoundly moved to happiness as I grasped the depth of their relationship.

After 40 years, I remember it--and *feel* it--still.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 May 21 | 11:17AM by Sawfish.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem to think that you can somehow read my mind--knowing in
> advance what my positions are and why.
>

That I do not. I merely jovially commented on and opposed your statement about race being insignificant, which I find rash and typical for media/system induced pc. After that I continued with my own reflection.

Another symptom that racial identity is deeper than casually applied culture, is that Africans and Europeans still live segregated in the US, even after 200 years. And in South Africa, and in Europe.

May I ask, do you actively socialize with blacks (apart from at work or in school, where you must for obvious reasons adapt somewhat), and invite them into your home as close friends? In your spare time? And not doing it to be "good", but because you truly enjoy it? And I don't mean some mulatto chum either, but a truly black stemming from the deepest Congo, or Somalia, with throaty or chattering voices, with a phenotype that markedly differs from your own. If you do, then by all means, I find you somewhat remarkable. Most Americans of European origin don't do that. Because racial identity is very strong; we want to recognize something of ourselves in those we socialize closely with; it is biologically natural. It is a combination of race and deep culture, because these go hand in hand, are blended.

> It could happen. And monkeys could come flying out of the Queen of England's derriere, too. In short, K., I
> wouldn't bet on either: it's too early to tell for sure.

No, it is not! You can see it in the changing demography. WHO has calculated that Africa will double or even triple its population within the next few decades, while white Europeans are decreasing (again, attained through effective anti-white propaganda induction and domestic sanctions). The corrupt politicians bark out that Europe will not "survive", unless we have more mass-immigration from Africa. Instead of immigration the politicians could have done like they do in Hungary, support its own people, to politically support the family and bearing children. But they refuse. (Hungary is a healthy homogenous country, with sensible East Europeans. I have been there, it is clean and tidy, people are cheerful and sociable and proud, and you can safely go out there even at night.) The West Europeans are quickly and efficiently being replaced by Africans and Arabs, and will be a minority within a few decades (they already are in some cities), if this is allowed to continue. Are we to just sit passive, ... and hope for the best?!! The process is actually accelerating through political dictates. Numerous laws, media bias, and advertising, repress the Europeans and their culture, and favor the "newly arrived". At the core of this is an anti-white agenda and increased implementation of a purely materialistic, senseless commercial consumer's culture. Rapes and other violent crimes committed against the Europeans are not properly sentenced, but are being excused by representative politicians, by saying that "they do it because they are discriminated by white man", or "well, they don't understand our laws, and therefore cannot be judged", or putting the blame on the rape victims for dressing "invitingly" instead of covering their bodies, or men dressing "too well", thus inviting robbery. So the perpetrators continue to walk the streets, enjoying freedom and consuming the assets of European tax payers. As soon as they set foot in a European country, they are falsely titled natives of that country, and by law may not be called anything else, to facilitate enforced mixing.

The system even go so far as to lowering school requirements to adapt to immigrants' level, overturning and dissolving basic knowledge and teaching, replacing it with free "discussions" and flexible "anything goes" interpretations, where everyone is right and no one is wrong (except those preferring tradition); letting students decide on their own spelling, distorting the basics of science and biology (by an unpleasant stew of inane decadence), and even saying that 2 + 2 is not necessarily 4 because it has only been "the white man's privilege" to state such. It is the destruction of a civilization.

And even if the Africans and Arabs should succeed in making something of their own in Europe (more likely will be kept doing menial service for the elite), to satisfy their needs when the last supporting Europeans are gone (through 'white flight', low birth rates, racially mixed up, and, when in minority, by final persecution), this is still an invasion and occupation. It is War, a masked war, not executed with swords and guns, but with baby carriages. There is devilish deception at the core of it, even some pretended nationalism to mislead the disgruntled. I will never be convinced by platitude phrases like "it's only color" and "everyone's equal rights", to freely accept this native replacement, which they call "humanism" to trick people into accepting it (the persistent propaganda of passive acceptance has been extremely effective), but which has nothing to do with ethics. By extinguishing intelligent, stable, and successfully independent cultural groups, robbing their national savings and draining their welfare buffer, and herding the increasingly mixed people into shallow materialistic consumption culture, they will be easier to control by the global rulers, while also increasing the profits of the elite bankers, who are one and the same. Actually, by now the top bankers already control the majority of the global assets through their economic debt system, and are gradually moving over from increasing mass consumption to drastically reducing the World population.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You seem to think that you can somehow read my
> mind--knowing in
> > advance what my positions are and why.
> >
>
> That I do not. I merely jovially commented on and
> opposed your statement about race being
> insignificant, which I find rash and typical for
> media/system induced pc. After that I continued
> with my own reflection.
>
> Another symptom that racial identity is deeper
> than casually applied culture, is that Africans
> and Europeans still live segregated in the US,
> even after 200 years. And in South Africa, and in
> Europe.
>
> May I ask, do you actively socialize with blacks
> (apart from at work or in school, where you must
> for obvious reasons adapt somewhat), and invite
> them into your home as close friends? In your
> spare time? And not doing it to be "good",

For chrissake, K. I'm not "good", never have been except for a brief period in college.

I'm really disappointed that you'd even have to ask.

> but
> because you truly enjoy it? And I don't mean some
> mulatto chum either, but a truly black stemming
> from the deepest Congo, or Somalia, with throaty
> or chattering voices, with a phenotype that
> markedly differs from your own.

No, and we agree on this: by default, phenotypes (races) tend to immediately identify with others of their group. At least until they have established contact enough to find out if they share any values.

This all seems normal and natural.

But what I gradually found was that I have more in common with the Chinese, Indian, Iranian doctors and engineers who were the parents of my daughter's school friends than I do with people who watch Duck Dynasty or NASCAR.

...or any popular Spanish language TV shows, or people who like to regularly watch Beyonce and listen to rap.

..or American Idol, or other such personally demeaning exhibitions.

So this is evidence, to me, that this where cultural values provide a sufficient personal interface that racial differences are secondary.

This is why I don't go to biker bars or NBA games: one scares me, the other bores me.

As regards such as voice qualities, these, to a very large degree, are culturally dictated as well. Listen to two Japanese business people converse, where one has greater status than the other.

I've been with black friends/acquaintances who basically can turn on (or off) diction characteristics at will.

But it's basically true that I have few close black friends, and it's also true that I socialize mostly with Asian people, either by ancestry or directly from China. Korea, or Singapore/Malaysia.

I no longer have any close friend--they either died or I let contact dry up. I'm happy as is.

Nor have I ever cared if I had zero "types" of friends. I'm not equitable socially: I like who I like, for whatever reasons.


> If you do, then by
> all means, I find you somewhat remarkable. Most
> Americans of European origin don't do that.

Agreed.

And here's a HUGE revelation: when I got involved with my current wife and began to socialize A LOT with many Asian folk, I saw demonstrated an unashamed recognition of, and commentary on, racial differences. I was frankly asked questions that no Caucasian in the US would be comfortable asking someone of another race, and they meant nothing by it: to them it seemed like a legitimate conversation opener.

I saw, or detected, this again and again in my Asian acquaintances, and realized that aside from the US and western Europe, race was readily recognized, it was assumed to be associated with differences, and at that point you either establish contact or not, depending on the circumstances.

Now, additionally if these people of varied races shared some deeply held social/behavioral values, it could be quite workable. Doesn't mean you'll be best friends, but it can mean a decent social/business relationship with a fair amount of mutual respect, rather than suspicion and mistrust.

I saw this again, and again, and again, and...

> Because racial identity is very strong; we want to
> recognize something of ourselves in those we
> socialize closely with; it is biologically
> natural. It is a combination of race and deep
> culture,

I agree with all but culture. Maybe "deep culture" to you means something like an instant and insistent preference for red-hair women. I probably would not consider this as a part of culture, but perhaps you would. I'd view it as a possible evolutionarily dictated biological imperative.

>
because these go hand in hand, are
> blended.

I don't deny that race can infuse preferences, but that these can be mitigated by what *I* call culture: and adherence to established norms and tastes for a given group of whatever race.

Here's a fair example of where I think that race may indeed preclude complete socio-cultural assimilation: Native Americans. They may have been isolated in a non-sophisticated material culture for so long that many/most of them do not possess the underlying biological or psychological (to the degree that it's physically based) underpinnings to adapt to the current industrial cultures.

Ditto for Australian aborigines: the gap in isolation my be too great.

>
> > It could happen. And monkeys could come flying
> out of the Queen of England's derriere, too. In
> short, K., I
> > wouldn't bet on either: it's too early to tell
> for sure.
>
> No, it is not! You can see it in the changing
> demography. WHO has calculated that Africa will
> double or even triple its population within the
> next few decades, while white Europeans are
> decreasing (again, attained through effective
> anti-white propaganda induction and domestic
> sanctions). The corrupt politicians bark out that
> Europe will not "survive", unless we have more
> mass-immigration from Africa. Instead of
> immigration the politicians could have done like
> they do in Hungary, support its own people, to
> politically support the family and bearing
> children. But they refuse. (Hungary is a healthy
> homogenous country, with sensible East Europeans.
> I have been there, it is clean and tidy, people
> are cheerful and sociable and proud, and you can
> safely go out there even at night.) The West
> Europeans are quickly and efficiently being
> replaced by Africans and Arabs, and will be a
> minority within a few decades (they already are in
> some cities), if this is allowed to continue. Are
> we to just sit passive, ... and hope for the
> best?!! The process is actually accelerating
> through political dictates. Numerous laws, media
> bias, and advertising, repress the Europeans and
> their culture, and favor the "newly arrived". At
> the core of this is an anti-white agenda and
> increased implementation of a purely
> materialistic, senseless commercial consumer's
> culture. Rapes and other violent crimes committed
> against the Europeans are not properly sentenced,
> but are being excused by representative
> politicians, by saying that "they do it because
> they are discriminated by white man", or "well,
> they don't understand our laws, and therefore
> cannot be judged", or putting the blame on the
> rape victims for dressing "invitingly" instead of
> covering their bodies, or men dressing "too well",
> thus inviting robbery. So the perpetrators
> continue to walk the streets, enjoying freedom and
> consuming the assets of European tax payers. As
> soon as they set foot in a European country, they
> are falsely titled natives of that country, and by
> law may not be called anything else, to facilitate
> enforced mixing.

I think that it could happen that way, but you could always move to Hungary, because if it's as you say, you'll have next to zero chance to alter it. I mean, this to me makes sense because you'd have actual agency, whereas being a part of a whining, hopeless mass of embittered and emasculated drones will only cause you to lose respect.

It's not a question of what's right or wrong, but what's possible and likely. You've got only one life (as near as I can tell) and you can spend it as Don Quixote, or his side-kick Sancho Panza.

I realized this long ago and am in fact a very well-heeled Sancho Panza, with enough assets to buy my way into virtually any place I want.

...and I may yet do this, the point being that I'm able precisely because I did not spend the last 40 years titling impotently at windmills, all the while making myself a laughing stock.

>
> The system even go so far as to lowering school
> requirements to adapt to immigrants' level,
> overturning and dissolving basic knowledge and
> teaching, replacing it with free "discussions" and
> flexible "anything goes" interpretations, where
> everyone is right and no one is wrong (except
> those preferring tradition); letting students
> decide on their own spelling, distorting the
> basics of science and biology (by an unpleasant
> stew of inane decadence), and even saying that 2 +
> 2 is not necessarily 4 because it has only been
> "the white man's privilege" to state such. It is
> the destruction of a civilization.
>
> And even if the Africans and Arabs should succeed
> in making something of their own in Europe (more
> likely will be kept doing menial service for the
> elite), to satisfy their needs when the last
> supporting Europeans are gone (through 'white
> flight', low birth rates, racially mixed up, and,
> when in minority, by final persecution), this is
> still an invasion and occupation. It is War, a
> masked war, not executed with swords and guns, but
> with baby carriages. There is devilish deception
> at the core of it, even some pretended nationalism
> to mislead the disgruntled. I will never be
> convinced by platitude phrases like "it's only
> color" and "everyone's equal rights", to freely
> accept this native replacement, which they call
> "humanism" to trick people into accepting it (the
> persistent propaganda of passive acceptance has
> been extremely effective), but which has nothing
> to do with ethics. By extinguishing intelligent,
> stable, and successfully independent cultural
> groups, robbing their national savings and
> draining their welfare buffer, and herding the
> increasingly mixed people into shallow
> materialistic consumption culture, they will be
> easier to control by the global rulers, while also
> increasing the profits of the elite bankers, who
> are one and the same. Actually, by now the top
> bankers already control the majority of the global
> assets through their economic debt system, and are
> gradually moving over from increasing mass
> consumption to drastically reducing the World
> population.

I think that these points you raise have levels of validity, but all this is to me is a map of the terrain: now I figure how best to get me and mine to the best place on the map I've found, in a stable fashion, and by God, I'm pretty good at it because I don't allow myself to get distracted and diverted by someone else's talking points.

I Look at the map, and don't deny what I see. If I judge it more effective to try to stem the tide, I'd do it, but if not, I'd ride the crest to the best of my abilities.

This has always worked for me better than anything else.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps this might only prove a few points listed above, but as one who has both white and Japanese ancestry, I never felt much concern for a fellow's skin color, facial structure, cultural background, etc. I lived in California my entire life, and the urban areas are filled with all kinds of people. I detest urbanization, mind you, but I got along with anyone as long as they weren't jackasses. I've known several friends of different origins, and I was comfortable talking to all of them and meeting their families. Perhaps this is because I'm mixed, making me unusual somehow, but I assume most people (and I don't mean SJWs or other cowards who nervously place race upon a pedestal that can never be approached) wouldn't mind the company of someone with a different skin or culture as long as the individuals share something in common. My ex-wife was all-white and she thought I was exotic, but she had no trouble immersing herself in the Asian side of my family.

I'm basically a loner, so I prefer exceptional individuals rather than strictly white or Japanese folk. I've never felt interest in Japan, in fact I find some sides of its culture unsettling and overrated, but I can say the exact same thing about the U. S. I never liked chatting with a loud white neighbor who swears up and down the street, I never felt any enthusiasm for the super bowl, and I always thought my white father was an ignoramus for the qualities he thought were proudly American, like getting into fist fights with random strangers for the sake of honor.

Regarding the phasing out of white people, or any ethnicity, I'm not so worried about that. I don't know whether or not there is any masked war (maybe there is) but I accept that everything has a beginning and an end, even peoples and cultures, in spite of the common desire to preserve everything in life for its own sake. White, black, Mexican, Asian, I'm only interested in rare imaginative individuals who can talk about things beyond what is normal to any race or society, which will naturally change or fade away some day. My neighbors are okay people, and I wish them the very best, but boy would I be bored talking to them for more than a half-hour.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 May 21 | 10:18PM by Hespire.

H, we are on pretty much the same wavelength, it seems to me. I've gone so far as to think of myself as an equal opportunity misanthrope.

I can connect meaningfully with very few individuals, and race/ethnicity cannot be the main, or major, criterion.

This has nothing to do with fairness or equanimity--these are illusory concepts. It has to do with immaterial connection that satisfies me.

Maybe that's why we're all here on ED.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 May 21 | 10:32PM by Sawfish.

That's essentially how I feel, Sawfish. I see no reason to boast about race, culture, or skin color, as those things are not any individual's accomplishment. Sometimes I wonder if the modern desire to perfectly represent the supposed traits of one's race or culture is derived from insecurity. The younger Japanese-Americans in my family are becoming more and more obsessed with their "heritage", but the closer they reach the supposed Japanese archetype, the more artificial and timid they seem to me, as if they wish to escape from the ambiguity and freedom of individualism in favor of a perfectly planned-out drone-like existence.

One of the reasons I connect with CAS' fiction is precisely because he doesn't seem so desperately attached to his skin or culture, romanticizing (even darkly) the individual spirit of a character whether they are white, black, Arabic, Hyperborean, Poseidonisian, Martian, Antarean, etc. I'm sure if I was born on the most splendid alien planet, with walking trees and green-tinted skies and palaces shaped like seashells, I would still feel no special connection with my race or society, other than the fact that I was naturaly shaped by it to some extent.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think that it could happen that way, but you
> could always move to Hungary, because if it's as
> you say, you'll have next to zero chance to alter
> it. I mean, this to me makes sense because you'd
> have actual agency, whereas being a part of a
> whining, hopeless mass of embittered and
> emasculated drones will only cause you to lose
> respect.
>
> It's not a question of what's right or wrong, but
> what's possible and likely. You've got only one
> life (as near as I can tell) and you can spend it
> as Don Quixote, or his side-kick Sancho Panza.
>
> I realized this long ago and am in fact a very
> well-heeled Sancho Panza, with enough assets to
> buy my way into virtually any place I want.
>
> ...and I may yet do this, the point being that I'm
> able precisely because I did not spend the last 40
> years titling impotently at windmills, all the
> while making myself a laughing stock.
>

Yes, you have a great personal advantage in this, not being an idealist. My brother has a lot of your attitude, and he and I often clash, he telling me that I should stop fighting windmills. And it is right, for my own good I need to modulate my posture, and be less idealistic.

But even if a person is (overall) antiracist like you, or a "complete" antiracist like Hespire (if it is truly possible, having no racial preferences at all, from an aesthetic point of view), one should still be concerned about the stability of the society and country one lives in. Mass-immigration of un-adaptable clashing cultures will cause chafing, social chaos, economic problems, and may even lead to civil war. France, for example, fears an upcoming civil war between Muslims and Frenchmen.

... There I go again, fighting windmills. But, if no one cared about the larger social issues, everyone was a materialist egoist, then there is only the law of the jungle left (or succumbing under dictatorship). And that may not be preferable even for you, Sawfish. How far could you really run with your (digital) money? ... Still, I do admire your wisdom.

On the other hand, it doesn't require much wisdom. Most people function automatically like that, and couldn't care less for larger issues beyond their personal lives. It is the basic animal impulsion.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I think that it could happen that way, but you
> > could always move to Hungary, because if it's
> as
> > you say, you'll have next to zero chance to
> alter
> > it. I mean, this to me makes sense because
> you'd
> > have actual agency, whereas being a part of a
> > whining, hopeless mass of embittered and
> > emasculated drones will only cause you to lose
> > respect.
> >
> > It's not a question of what's right or wrong,
> but
> > what's possible and likely. You've got only one
> > life (as near as I can tell) and you can spend
> it
> > as Don Quixote, or his side-kick Sancho Panza.
> >
> > I realized this long ago and am in fact a very
> > well-heeled Sancho Panza, with enough assets to
> > buy my way into virtually any place I want.
> >
> > ...and I may yet do this, the point being that
> I'm
> > able precisely because I did not spend the last
> 40
> > years titling impotently at windmills, all the
> > while making myself a laughing stock.
> >
>
> Yes, you have a great personal advantage in this,
> not being an idealist. My brother has a lot of
> your attitude, and he and I often clash, he
> telling me that I should stop fighting windmills.
> And it is right, for my own good I need to
> modulate my posture, and be less idealistic.
>
> But even if a person is (overall) antiracist like
> you, or a "complete" antiracist like Hespire (if
> it is truly possible, having no racial preferences
> at all, from an aesthetic point of view), one
> should still be concerned about the stability of
> the society and country one lives in.
> Mass-immigration of un-adaptable clashing cultures
> will cause chafing, social chaos, economic
> problems, and may even lead to civil war. France,
> for example, fears an upcoming civil war between
> Muslims and Frenchmen.
>
> ... There I go again, fighting windmills. But, if
> no one cared about the larger social issues,
> everyone was a materialist egoist, then there is
> only the law of the jungle left (or succumbing
> under dictatorship). And that may not be
> preferable even for you, Sawfish. How far could
> you really run with your (digital) money? ...
> Still, I do admire your wisdom.

Very well expressed, K.

Absolutely I empathize with your personal position. There is no doubt in my mind that genetic preferences, based in part on race, would tend to cause me to group and reproduce within certain limits, but the reality is that I live in a very cosmopolitan time/place and in truth the sexual imperative seeks availability and variety, at least for males.

So that deals with the reproductive part.

The other part--which might be spiritual--works against selection by race. I've been with too many people I really like, a lot, who are not Caucasian, and met too many Caucasians who are quite simply scum, for me to see race as a primary triage.

So simply and bluntly, instead of seeing the world primarily thru a racial lens, I see it primarily as divide along a scum/non-scum axis. I see race, too, but the scum/non-scum evaluation easily trumps it in importance.

I feel that I know what you mean when you talk about Hungary; I have a cousin who retired to Dubrovnik two years ago for almost the exact same reason. A well-ordered society of reasonably happy individuals who adhere to a similar cultural understanding is VERY attractive. If it's multi-racial, that's fine, but if not, that's also fine. There is no inherent advantage to unconditional diversity, no matter what the current common "wisdom" dictates. It needs to be a sort of positive diversity, and not one predicated on celebrating differences (and implied superiorities), squabbling over ethnic ownership of certain practices, and nursing sniveling and often imagined grievances.

If people can get past that, I can find a way to live with just about anybody.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the other hand, it doesn't require much wisdom.
> Most people function automatically like that, and
> couldn't care less for larger issues beyond their
> personal lives. It is the basic animal impulsion.

I agree that there is definitely a need for a certain level of idealism, and it could be that I'm an embittered idealist at heart, driven by circumstance to apostasy.

But the current formula is working, and above all I'm a utilitarian in a very limited sense, limited to myself and those I care about.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's essentially how I feel, Sawfish. I see no
> reason to boast about race, culture, or skin
> color, as those things are not any individual's
> accomplishment. Sometimes I wonder if the modern
> desire to perfectly represent the supposed traits
> of one's race or culture is derived from
> insecurity.

This is a point I came to, also.

Me, Sawfish, can gain no meaningful support from attaching my identity to a given group or tradition, nor should I. Basically, I'm on my own, and when people deal with me, they are dealing with Sawfish, not a member of a specified group, with all the supposed generalizations that go with that group. My personal faults, my personal strengths.

So I've seen people of Greek ancestry take what for all the world seemed to me personal pride in the Parthenon.

Please! Give me a break! You had NOTHING to do, whatsoever, with the Parthenon! You'll have to stand/fall on your *own* accomplishments.

This takes nothing away from the Parthenon as a material (or intellectual or artistic) accomplishment, but really now: you had nothing to do with it.

> The younger Japanese-Americans in my
> family are becoming more and more obsessed with
> their "heritage", but the closer they reach the
> supposed Japanese archetype, the more artificial
> and timid they seem to me, as if they wish to
> escape from the ambiguity and freedom of
> individualism in favor of a perfectly planned-out
> drone-like existence.
>
> One of the reasons I connect with CAS' fiction is
> precisely because he doesn't seem so desperately
> attached to his skin or culture, romanticizing
> (even darkly) the individual spirit of a character
> whether they are white, black, Arabic,
> Hyperborean, Poseidonisian, Martian, Antarean,
> etc. I'm sure if I was born on the most splendid
> alien planet, with walking trees and green-tinted
> skies and palaces shaped like seashells, I would
> still feel no special connection with my race or
> society, other than the fact that I was naturaly
> shaped by it to some extent.

I would be The Monster of the Prophecy... :^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > > Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > The Residents are my favourite band ...
> > >
> >
> > I have come to a stage where I must also say the
> > same. Neil Young used to be my favorite rock
> > star. I first listened to The Residents in 1979 or
> > 1980, and did it partly out of youthful rebellion
> > because they were so weird. But after a few years
> > I rejected them, stopped listening, thinking it
> > was socially harmful. It took another 20 years
> > before I resumed listening to them again. This
> > music, for me, has earlier not been about pleasant
> > harmonies, like say the melodies of John Denver;
> > but more comparable to the pleasure of scratching
> > an itch, or picking on the scab of a half-healed
> > wound. They have even been accused of earlier
> > being commies, but then they turned into avid
> > businessmen. Normally I am not very interested
> > in avant garde in art, but with The Residents it is
> > the creativity and rich imagination that
> > attracts me. And getting to know more about the men
> > behind the band, my sympathies have grown,
> > consequently the weirdness has retracted into the background
> > and I hear overall simply great music.
>
> Interesting description of their artistic
> apotheosis, as you have evolved to judge their
> work.
>
> At some point I'll have to give them another try.
> There are some artists who, by the very nature of
> their work, seem to evoke multiple responses in
> their "audience", and these responsess may be more
> commonly associated with a completely different
> *form*: e.g., Goya's Disasters of War evoke a
> feeling that one seldom, if ever, encounters in
> music, and yet it's possible for some very
> unconventional artists maybe sample it in their
> work. I have no examples of such, but it seems
> possible, at least.
>

Sawfish, have you seen Lars von Trier's film The Idiots? It is about abandoning all pretensions, and completely relaxing into idiocy, without the use of drugs or alcohol.

Lars von Trier later sought audience with Ingmar Bergman, because he wanted to be "accepted" by the Master, his idol. He only asked for a few minutes of conversation. But was denied. I can well understand that. It made him extremely disappointed and bitter.

Still, The Idiots is a hilariously disgusting film.

Knygatin Wrote:

...MUCH DELETED...

>
> Sawfish, have you seen Lars von Trier's film The
> Idiots? It is about abandoning all pretensions,
> and completely relaxing into idiocy, without the
> use of drugs or alcohol.
>
> Lars von Trier later sought audience with Ingmar
> Bergman, because he wanted to be "accepted" by the
> Master, his idol. He only asked for a few minutes
> of conversation. But was denied. I can well
> understand that. It made him extremely
> disappointed and bitter.
>
> Still, The Idiots is a hilariously disgusting
> film.

Thanks for this recommendation, Knygatin. I am beginning to understand your aesthetic views and share them to a large degree, so this is valuable.

Speaking of Von Trier, I first became aware of him with Zentropa. The backward counting sequences by the narrator became almost hypnotic; in fact, they were like a hypnotist planting a post-hypnotic suggestion. He was on to something dark (like Lynch is usually "on to something" dark) and this always appeals, so long as it's not celebrating degeneracy.

Hah! That's a good one I just learned about myself: I certainly don't mind a sort of tidy voyeurism, but draw the line at editorial comment that claims that the degeneracy I just viewed for a cheap thrill is somehow OK.

It's not, so far as I'm concerned.

FWIW, every time Von Trier is mentioned, I always add: "Did you see Melancholia?"

Did you? If so, how did you like it?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have not seen Melancholia. I am not really a fan of von Trier, or of shaky hand-camera filming. But I have not seen enough of his work to be able to have a genuine opinion of it. I believe I have only seen The Idiots and Breaking the Waves, and that was many years ago.

The Idiots is about as degenerate as it gets.

I have avoided much of von Trier’s more recent output (everything after the sadistic, hyper-pretentious, overrated and downright despicable Dogville, to be precise), but I like much of his earlier work.

His horror-comedy hospital drama TV series The Kingdom is fantastic. Genuinely creepy, genuinely hilarious. A unique little gem.

Lynch lovers in particular may find The Element of Crime worthwhile, as it tells a relatively simple story using overcharged, dream-like symbolic images.

I think that as an artist von Trier went from being an imp to being a genuine devil, incapable of putting his contempt for his fellow human beings to productive artistic use anymore and simply setting out to annoy and torture them. I doubt he himself even gets any pleasure from his own work at this point in his nosedive of a career.

That being said, I have not seen Melancholia.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not seen Melancholia. I am not really a fan
> of von Trier, or of shaky hand-camera filming.

None of that with Melancholia. Technically well produced without any visual distractions.

It is the unavoidable end of the world, and how this realization affects a very insulated (by wealth, privilege) group of people we have been introduced to in some depth.

To conceptualize it properly, these people have **never* had to do anything they don't want to, being able to avoid it by means of their wealth and status.

It's not a moral tale, but rather it shows how each of these people faces the end.

> But
> I have not seen enough of his work to be able to
> have a genuine opinion of it. I believe I have
> only seen The Idiots and Breaking the Waves, and
> that was many years ago.
>
> The Idiots is about as degenerate as it gets.

I'll make it a point to see it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have avoided much of von Trier’s more recent
> output (everything after the sadistic,
> hyper-pretentious, overrated and downright
> despicable Dogville, to be precise), but I like
> much of his earlier work.
>
> His horror-comedy hospital drama TV series The
> Kingdom is fantastic. Genuinely creepy, genuinely
> hilarious. A unique little gem.
>
> Lynch lovers in particular may find The Element of
> Crime worthwhile, as it tells a relatively simple
> story using overcharged, dream-like symbolic
> images.
>
> I think that as an artist von Trier went from
> being an imp to being a genuine devil, incapable
> of putting his contempt for his fellow human
> beings to productive artistic use anymore and
> simply setting out to annoy and torture them. I
> doubt he himself even gets any pleasure from his
> own work at this point in his nosedive of a
> career.
>
> That being said, I have not seen Melancholia.

A few more films for my list.

Thanks, Avoosl!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Melancholia. Technically well
> produced without any visual distractions.
>
> It is the unavoidable end of the world, and how
> this realization affects a very insulated (by
> wealth, privilege) group of people we have been
> introduced to in some depth.
>
> To conceptualize it properly, these people have
> **never* had to do anything they don't want to,
> being able to avoid it by means of their wealth
> and status.
>
> It's not a moral tale, but rather it shows how
> each of these people faces the end.
>

Well, the premise sounds interesting. Leads my thoughts to a couple of literary works with similar concept, M. P. Shiel's The Purple Cloud and Jack Vance's The Last Castle. And also, to some degree W. H. Hodgson's The Night Land, although in that one they have prepared themselves behind the impenetrable walls of a large pyramid. And also, J. G. Ballard's Vermilion Sands (that you led me to, Sawfish. Thanks!). And Andrei Tarkovsky worked with similar things in some of his films. And Clark Ashton Smith, of course!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Melancholia. Technically well
> > produced without any visual distractions.
> >
> > It is the unavoidable end of the world, and how
> > this realization affects a very insulated (by
> > wealth, privilege) group of people we have been
> > introduced to in some depth.
> >
> > To conceptualize it properly, these people have
> > **never* had to do anything they don't want to,
> > being able to avoid it by means of their wealth
> > and status.
> >
> > It's not a moral tale, but rather it shows how
> > each of these people faces the end.
> >
>
> Well, the premise sounds interesting. Leads my
> thoughts to a couple of literary works with
> similar concept, M. P. Shiel's The Purple Cloud
> and Jack Vance's The Last Castle. And also, to
> some degree W. H. Hodgson's The Night Land,
> although in that one they have prepared themselves
> behind the impenetrable walls of a large pyramid.
> And also, J. G. Ballard's Vermilion Sands (that
> you led me to, Sawfish. Thanks!). And Andrei
> Tarkovsky worked with similar things in some of
> his films. And Clark Ashton Smith, of course!

Here's the thing about Melancholia...

Set in modern contemporary N Europe, among a very select stratus of wealthy (very wealthy) professionals and other such.

No one knows until about 2 weeks left, and as it is related to them (thru media, just as one would expect) it's how they go about dealing with it, each in his/her own separate ways.

It's a lot like the roving killer asteroid stories the media love to jerk everyone's chain with, but this is way worse...

No time for an evolved decadence. It's right here, coming just before the planned trip to St. Tropez.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > The Idiots is about as degenerate as it gets.
>
> I'll make it a point to see it.

;D

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here's the thing about Melancholia...
>
> Set in modern contemporary N Europe, among a very
> select stratus of wealthy (very wealthy)
> professionals and other such.
>
> No one knows until about 2 weeks left, and as it
> is related to them (thru media, just as one would
> expect) it's how they go about dealing with it,
> each in his/her own separate ways.
>
> It's a lot like the roving killer asteroid stories
> the media love to jerk everyone's chain with, but
> this is way worse...
>
> No time for an evolved decadence. It's right here,
> coming just before the planned trip to St. Tropez.

After some consideration, I have decided that I must see it.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Here's the thing about Melancholia...
> >
> > Set in modern contemporary N Europe, among a
> very
> > select stratus of wealthy (very wealthy)
> > professionals and other such.
> >
> > No one knows until about 2 weeks left, and as
> it
> > is related to them (thru media, just as one
> would
> > expect) it's how they go about dealing with it,
> > each in his/her own separate ways.
> >
> > It's a lot like the roving killer asteroid
> stories
> > the media love to jerk everyone's chain with,
> but
> > this is way worse...
> >
> > No time for an evolved decadence. It's right
> here,
> > coming just before the planned trip to St.
> Tropez.
>
> After some consideration, I have decided that I
> must see it.

HAH!

Seriously, if you *do* see it, let us know what you think about it.

No visual or narrative "funny stuff"; the filing style is a lot like a very competent quality director of big budget films--Peter Weir, maybe. The entire first half or 2/3rds of the film might be dull to many, since it is simply introducing you, in depth, to the three primary characters thru some significant social interactions and events.

So you get to really know them. While they are not sympathetic, they are not truly reprehensible--Keifer Sutherland comes closest, and even he is simply a privileged narcissist.

Then, after you know them quite well, the sh** hits the fan...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At this time in my life I have trouble connecting with Merritt because of a certain pulp haste and clumsiness that creeps in, when he runs out of inspiration, and because of some egregious ethnic stereotypes. I tried to re-read him and couldn't. I tried to re-read Dune by Herbert--whom I knew, he was a teacher of mine at Clarion, for a week--but found the dialogue oppressive. Nevertheless, it is chockful of great ideas and is a marvelous vision. I do appreciate it. I find Asimov both likable, now, in a way, but rather an awkward writer, in his fiction anyway. He got better in later works.

I still connect very well with the best of Jack Vance, his Dying Earth stories, his Lyonesse tales, his classic sf adventure like The Demon Princes...I knew him too, corresponded with him, saw him at conventions...quite a character. Sadly, rather racist though. But that only shows in one of his books. HPL--well, we know his issues with that, but L Sprague de Camp said that HPL was changing his mind about race, letting racism go, as he got older. If he'd only lived longer...

I love Machen and most of his contemporaries. I have trouble with many modern horror and fantasy writers. Most of them seem sloppy, overly concerned with a kind of social faddishness (and I'm a progressive, too), and they seem like they spend more time on facebook and twitter and instagram than writing novels. They watched a lot of anime, which is good stuff but...you don't have to write novels that way. I don't choose to name any of them.

I like Tim Powers' fantasy novels a lot. He's a good friend of mine, though I don't agree with his politics or rather medieval theology.

Moorcock is very uneven. His Dancers at the End of Time books and his Elric books are mostly very good. And certain other works. But some of his pulp novels--they just are--can be rather sloppily. He once told me that he "writes on adrenaline" and that kind of thing can be inspired or just hasty. But when he's good he's good. His novel Behold the Man is a great science fiction classic.

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At this time in my life I have trouble connecting
> with Merritt because of a certain pulp haste and
> clumsiness that creeps in, when he runs out of
> inspiration, and because of some egregious ethnic
> stereotypes. I tried to re-read him and couldn't.
> I tried to re-read Dune by Herbert--whom I knew,
> he was a teacher of mine at Clarion, for a
> week--but found the dialogue oppressive.
> Nevertheless, it is chockful of great ideas and is
> a marvelous vision. I do appreciate it. I find
> Asimov both likable, now, in a way, but rather an
> awkward writer, in his fiction anyway. He got
> better in later works.
>
> I still connect very well with the best of Jack
> Vance, his Dying Earth stories, his Lyonesse
> tales, his classic sf adventure like The Demon
> Princes...I knew him too, corresponded with him,
> saw him at conventions...quite a character. Sadly,
> rather racist though. But that only shows in one
> of his books. HPL--well, we know his issues with
> that, but L Sprague de Camp said that HPL was
> changing his mind about race, letting racism go,
> as he got older. If he'd only lived longer...
>
> I love Machen and most of his contemporaries. I
> have trouble with many modern horror and fantasy
> writers. Most of them seem sloppy, overly
> concerned with a kind of social faddishness (and
> I'm a progressive, too),

Quite all right, John. We pride ourselves on our tolerance here at ED, no matter what...

;^)

> and they seem like they
> spend more time on facebook and twitter and
> instagram than writing novels. They watched a lot
> of anime, which is good stuff but...you don't have
> to write novels that way. I don't choose to name
> any of them.
>
> I like Tim Powers' fantasy novels a lot. He's a
> good friend of mine, though I don't agree with his
> politics or rather medieval theology.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome John, to the Eldritch Dark forum.

Very colorful cover on your new book. Looks exiting. It stands out!

One thing I regret today, is that I cannot to the same extent as in the good old days walk into a physical bookstore, pick up a new book and open it, to see if I connect.

And oh, if you are looking for an honest political debate, you have come to the right place. :) Although we have lately more or less silently agreed, that it is perhaps better to leave that be.

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still connect very well with the best of Jack
> Vance, ...I knew him too, corresponded with him,
> saw him at conventions ... . Sadly,
> rather racist though.

What are you referring to specifically?

I find a racist undertone in The Star King. And also in The Grey Prince (aka The Domains of Koryphon) which was written while he briefly lived in South Africa during the years of his travels. Although, over at the Jack Vance discussion forum, they would not officially agree with that.

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I still connect very well with the best of Jack
> Vance, his Dying Earth stories, his Lyonesse
> tales, his classic sf adventure like The Demon
> Princes...I knew him too, corresponded with him,
> saw him at conventions...quite a character. Sadly,
> rather racist though. But that only shows in one
> of his books. HPL--well, we know his issues with
> that, but L Sprague de Camp said that HPL was
> changing his mind about race, letting racism go,
> as he got older. If he'd only lived longer...
>

The thing is that H. P. Lovecraft, C. A. Smith, and Jack Vance, had vast insights about life and the world, profoundly integrated in ways none of us can even begin to comprehend.

Boasting political correctness, shying away from the uncomfortable, and thinking shallow "good thoughts", does not make you wiser than them.

And L. Sprague de Camp was a moralizing, rigid thinker, ... he never knew Lovecraft, and merely speculated from how he wanted Lovecraft to be.

Knygatin Wrote:
> I find a racist undertone in The Star King. And
> also in The Grey Prince (aka The Domains of
> Koryphon) ....

Out of curiosity, what was your reaction to The Face?

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> > I find a racist undertone in The Star King. And
> > also in The Grey Prince (aka The Domains of
> > Koryphon) ....
>
> Out of curiosity, what was your reaction to The
> Face?

Everyone talks so highly of it! I must re-read it! I read it in the 80s, but am afraid I don't remember anything from it, except some tangled wormlike monstrosity at the very end!

I have read Star King a few times, but the other four only once. I want to re-read them when I find the time.

And what is your opinion of The Face?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And what is your opinion of The Face?

Well, I enjoyed it. But, since you mention race, it did have "racist" undertones, if depictions of fictional races can be "racist". The main antagonist, the crimelord Lens Larque, is a "Darsh", a member a race of humans known for being comically low-class and grotesque. While tracking Lens Larque down, Gersen also encounters the Methlens, a dignified, hoity-toity and wealthy breed of human who regard not only the Darsh, but also Gersen's kind, as inferior breeds. This leads to some mixed feelings on Gersen's part, which culminates in the climax you seem to recall very vaguely.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And what is your opinion of The Face?
>
> Well, I enjoyed it. But, since you mention race,
> it did have "racist" undertones, if depictions of
> fictional races can be "racist". The main
> antagonist, the crimelord Lens Larque, is a
> "Darsh", a member a race of humans known for being
> comically low-class and grotesque. While tracking
> Lens Larque down, Gersen also encounters the
> Methlens, a dignified, hoity-toity and wealthy
> breed of human who regard not only the Darsh, but
> also Gersen's kind, as inferior breeds. This
> leads to some mixed feelings on Gersen's part,
> which culminates in the climax you seem to recall
> very vaguely.

Thank you. I don't know why I can't remember the book better. The Star King immediately struck a cord with me, it had several visually memorable episodes, especially the dryads (which to me are like a sophisticated, intellectually developed and inspired variant of CAS's flower women). It is one of my favorite novels, has some transport "filler" passages, but ties up really well and neatly. I guess I am a "monster guy".

For a monster lover like me, there must be some bizarre monster* in every fantasy and science fiction book I read; otherwise I get severely disappointed. The Face assuredly at least had something of the kind by the very end.


* A monster for me can also mean anything that is monstrous, such as a futuristic machine or strange geological phenomena.

In my humble opinion, Vance’s best monster is King Kragen from The Blue World.

And if it’s craaazy monsters you want, you could do a lot worse than checking out Michael Shea’s fantasy books, such as Nifft the Lean and In Yana, the Touch of Undying.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my humble opinion, Vance’s best monster is
> King Kragen from The Blue World.
>
> And if it’s craaazy monsters you want, you could
> do a lot worse than checking out Michael Shea’s
> fantasy books, such as Nifft the Lean and In Yana,
> the Touch of Undying.

Yes, The Blue World is great! King Kragen is definitely up there among his very best monsters.

Nifft the Lean was certainly impressive, very bizarre and rich. I have not read In Yana, the Touch of Undying, ... yet! My favorite by Shea must be the novelette Fat Face. A masterpiece! And "Polyphemus" is just incredible!

That being said, I can also enjoy supernatural tales without monsters. What bores me to death is mundane events, descriptions of worldly proceedings; therefore I can't read crime fiction, or melodrama.

I have not read Lovecraft in a very very long time, until today, when I re-read his little talked about story "The Tomb". No monsters in that one. Everything Lovecraft writes is profoundly existential, every sentence is filled with important meaning. Therefore he is tremendously enjoyable. In fact, I get so exited by reading him, that I cannot contain my feelings, but have to rise up and walk about regularly to assimilate the breathtaking perspectives. A great story, and the ending completely unhinged me; I nearly cried.

On the subject of monsters, I always thought that one of CAS' greatest monsters was that nameless entity from "The Dweller in the Gulf." The story might not be so memorable, but the monster is certainly one of his most alien, menacing, mysterious, intense, and disturbingly graceful in form and function.

Lovecraft seemed impressed as well. In a letter to CAS he congratulated him on the story and emphasized his profound reaction to the creature, or "IT!!" as he called it!

Sometimes I wonder why people would read fantasy, if they won't allow themselves to drift away into dreaming. When they are so rational, reasonable, and common-sensible, so serious, that they refuse to believe in the fantasy. If they read fantasy merely as shallow entertainment, and just as well would have read any other book, like a crime novel. I find it sad, and pity them for not understanding that fantasy is more real than any social realism or melodrama. The mundane world and its baseness is not even worth laying much consideration by.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the subject of monsters, I always thought that
> one of CAS' greatest monsters was that nameless
> entity from "The Dweller in the Gulf." The story
> might not be so memorable, but the monster is
> certainly one of his most alien, menacing,
> mysterious, intense, and disturbingly graceful in
> form and function.
>

It was a while ago I read "The Dweller in the Gulf". I shall have to re-read it!

CAS himself considered "The Dark Eidolon" to be one of his very best, "my greatest monster to date, a devil of a story", (if I remember correctly). And he thought it could have been a terrific screen spectacle if Universal Pictures chose to take it on. It certainly would have been an interesting cavalcade of monsters if following the text thoroughly.

I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity of Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably unimaginative...

There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond which lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is protected by a watch, called the Night’s Watch. Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part of the world is also inhabited by various animals, including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths. There are also Giants, and mention is made of a legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.

In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait for it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.

Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?

(Answer: millions of people.)

Compare this to the opening sentences of Michael Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:

Quote:

“Will you take something with your wine?” the innkeeper asked with feigned offhandedness. Bramt Hex had been frequenting the inn for some weeks. He was always resolved to order wine alone, but the keep knew he could, with the slightest nudge, be stimulated to order a large meal as well.
“Yes, in fact,” Bramt Hex replied promptly, “since you suggest it. A salad of spindlewort. The broasted homunculus as well, followed immediately by a chilled crab tart.”
“The domestic or the wild homunculus?”
“The wild, of course.”
“We cannot give it to you, sir. The trappers bring none in. The vampires have lately increased in the hills.”
“Do they feed on homunculi?” Hex asked with surprise.
The innkeeper shook his head: “Trappers.”
“Of course. Well, I’ll take the sausage then instead of ’munk.”
“Thank you, sir.”

Here we are given a thumbnail sketch of an interestingly different world, including an economy, an ecosystem, character motivation, an unusual name and some fascinating other words. And readers will be even more surprised when they find out what a “vampire” is like in this world:

Quote:

Like most of his kind, he stood under five feet high, and wore ragged trousers of human skin which were supported by a single greasy shoulder strap that crossed his narrow, hairless chest diagonally. He had the typical, unimpressive face: a receding chin with an underslung, flabby-lipped mouth, a ratty snout of a nose and little dull eyes. His feet, bare, were deeply arched, with finger-long toes, and grasped the ground with handlike prehensility.

That’s absolutely nothing like the cloak-wearing Eastern-European nobleman I bet you were picturing!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 26 Jun 21 | 10:24PM by Avoosl Wuthoqquan.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the subject of monsters, I always thought
> that
> > one of CAS' greatest monsters was that nameless
> > entity from "The Dweller in the Gulf." The
> story
> > might not be so memorable, but the monster is
> > certainly one of his most alien, menacing,
> > mysterious, intense, and disturbingly graceful
> in
> > form and function.
> >
>
> It was a while ago I read "The Dweller in the
> Gulf". I shall have to re-read it!


I'm planning the same thing. It's less of a story and more of an atmospheric exploration of a dark, ominous, subterranean world. This is probably why Lovecraft praised it, as some parts of it remind me of his work, which itself is an excellent example of fantasy as something to utterly immerse your senses in.


> CAS himself considered "The Dark Eidolon" to be
> one of his very best, "my greatest monster to
> date, a devil of a story", (if I remember
> correctly). And he thought it could have been a
> terrific screen spectacle if Universal Pictures
> chose to take it on. It certainly would have been
> an interesting cavalcade of monsters if following
> the text thoroughly.


The jinns and demons in that story were truly strange. CAS took the weird immensity of Hell as portrayed in Vathek and made it even more demonic!

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity of
> Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably
> unimaginative...
>
> There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond which
> lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is
> protected by a watch, called the Night’s Watch.
> Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called
> Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part of
> the world is also inhabited by various animals,
> including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths.
> There are also Giants, and mention is made of a
> legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.
>
> In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait for
> it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the
> stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a
> Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.
>
> Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?
>
> (Answer: millions of people.)


I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel any strong need for it, but it strikes me as unreal that a series with so many bland ideas, which actual European myths and romances would scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just that well-written, which I'm willing to consider, though friends insist otherwise.


> Compare this to the opening sentences of Michael
> Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:
>
> “Will you take something with your wine?” the
> innkeeper asked with feigned offhandedness. Bramt
> Hex had been frequenting the inn for some weeks.
> He was always resolved to order wine alone, but
> the keep knew he could, with the slightest nudge,
> be stimulated to order a large meal as well.
> “Yes, in fact,” Bramt Hex replied promptly,
> “since you suggest it. A salad of spindlewort.
> The broasted homunculus as well, followed
> immediately by a chilled crab tart.”
> “The domestic or the wild homunculus?”
> “The wild, of course.”
> “We cannot give it to you, sir. The trappers
> bring none in. The vampires have lately increased
> in the hills.”
> “Do they feed on homunculi?” Hex asked with
> surprise.
> The innkeeper shook his head: “Trappers.”
> “Of course. Well, I’ll take the sausage then
> instead of ’munk.”
> “Thank you, sir.”
>
> Here we are given a thumbnail sketch of an
> interestingly different world, including an
> economy, an ecosystem, character motivation, an
> unusual name and some fascinating other words. And
> readers will be even more surprised when they find
> out what a “vampire” is like in this world:


I'm rather packed with reading material at the moment, but this one paragraph tells me more than enough about this bizarre setting, and it satisfies me more than the usual dungeons and dragons! I might have to give it a try some day!

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > CAS himself considered "The Dark Eidolon" to be
> > one of his very best, "my greatest monster to
> > date, a devil of a story", (if I remember
> > correctly). And he thought it could have been a
> > terrific screen spectacle if Universal Pictures
> > chose to take it on. It certainly would have been
> > an interesting cavalcade of monsters if following
> > the text thoroughly.
>
>
> The jinns and demons in that story were truly
> strange. CAS took the weird immensity of Hell as
> portrayed in Vathek and made it even more demonic!

Yep, he most certainly did!

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity of
> Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably
> unimaginative...
>
> There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond which
> lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is
> protected by a watch, called the Night’s Watch.
> Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called
> Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part of
> the world is also inhabited by various animals,
> including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths.
> There are also Giants, and mention is made of a
> legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.
>
> In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait for
> it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the
> stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a
> Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.
>
> Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?
>
> (Answer: millions of people.)
>
> Compare this to the opening sentences of Michael
> Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:
>

I have never read (it is a book too?) or watched Game of Thrones (despite of its massive publicity). Nor have I ever read or watched or played War of Warcraft (or whatever its name is ... Warring War of Warcraft?).

I trust you on In Yana, the Touch of Undying, but will not read those quotes. Because I am going to read the whole book soon ...

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel
> any strong need for it, but it strikes me as
> unreal that a series with so many bland ideas,
> which actual European myths and romances would
> scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just
> that well-written, which I'm willing to consider,
> though friends insist otherwise.
>
>

My guess would be sexual romance and other platitudes. Always sells well to the masses.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity
> of
> > Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably
> > unimaginative...
> >
> > There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond
> which
> > lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is
> > protected by a watch, called the Night’s
> Watch.
> > Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called
> > Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part
> of
> > the world is also inhabited by various animals,
> > including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths.
> > There are also Giants, and mention is made of a
> > legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.
> >
> > In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait
> for
> > it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the
> > stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a
> > Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.
> >
> > Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?
> >
> > (Answer: millions of people.)
>
>
> I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel
> any strong need for it, but it strikes me as
> unreal that a series with so many bland ideas,
> which actual European myths and romances would
> scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just
> that well-written, which I'm willing to consider,
> though friends insist otherwise.

It is a soft core porn costume melodrama with a few decent, if vastly overdrawn, characters.

Many of the women, alone, were well worth watching for multiple episodes.

But then, what would Eyes Wide Shut be without the ritual scene inside the manor house?

>
>
> > Compare this to the opening sentences of
> Michael
> > Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:
> >
> > “Will you take something with your wine?”
> the
> > innkeeper asked with feigned offhandedness.
> Bramt
> > Hex had been frequenting the inn for some
> weeks.
> > He was always resolved to order wine alone, but
> > the keep knew he could, with the slightest
> nudge,
> > be stimulated to order a large meal as well.
> > “Yes, in fact,” Bramt Hex replied promptly,
> > “since you suggest it. A salad of
> spindlewort.
> > The broasted homunculus as well, followed
> > immediately by a chilled crab tart.”
> > “The domestic or the wild homunculus?”
> > “The wild, of course.”
> > “We cannot give it to you, sir. The trappers
> > bring none in. The vampires have lately
> increased
> > in the hills.”
> > “Do they feed on homunculi?” Hex asked with
> > surprise.
> > The innkeeper shook his head: “Trappers.”
> > “Of course. Well, I’ll take the sausage
> then
> > instead of ’munk.”
> > “Thank you, sir.”
> >
> > Here we are given a thumbnail sketch of an
> > interestingly different world, including an
> > economy, an ecosystem, character motivation, an
> > unusual name and some fascinating other words.
> And
> > readers will be even more surprised when they
> find
> > out what a “vampire” is like in this world:
>
>
> I'm rather packed with reading material at the
> moment, but this one paragraph tells me more than
> enough about this bizarre setting, and it
> satisfies me more than the usual dungeons and
> dragons! I might have to give it a try some day!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a soft core porn costume melodrama with a
> few decent, if vastly overdrawn, characters.
>
> Many of the women, alone, were well worth watching
> for multiple episodes.
>
> But then, what would Eyes Wide Shut be without the
> ritual scene inside the manor house?


The porn and melodrama explain it all to me. Those and violence are often all you need for an audience these days. Then again, I suppose Shakespeare might have filled a similar niche in his time. Minus the women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27 Jun 21 | 12:23PM by Hespire.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel
> any strong need for it,

Don’t worry, there really isn’t any.

> but it strikes me as
> unreal that a series with so many bland ideas,
> which actual European myths and romances would
> scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just
> that well-written, which I'm willing to consider,
> though friends insist otherwise.

Well, the people that I know who went bananas over it a couple of years ago were going on about the characters, and especially how the show’s writers would kill off sympathetic ones without batting an eyelid. Nobody ever mentioned the fantasy elements. Or the naked stuff (then again, these were Europeans -- they tend to be less hung up on nudity than Americans).

Also, I suspect that what is ‘blandness’ to you and me is easily mistaken for ‘profundity’ by others. A bit like how lovesick teenagers write terrible poems that do not contain any specifics, but plenty of abstract nouns. Or ‘poets’ who get to read their work at US presidential inaugurations, come to think of it -- but let’s not go there.

(O my god this is shitty.)

> I'm rather packed with reading material at the
> moment, but this one paragraph tells me more than
> enough about this bizarre setting, and it
> satisfies me more than the usual dungeons and
> dragons! I might have to give it a try some day!

Michael Shea is so good IMHO, that I would recommend giving him precedence over the rest of your to-read list (which no doubt, like mine, is immense) at least for a book or two.

> The porn and melodrama explain it all to me. Those
> and violence are often all you need for an
> audience these days. Then again, I suppose
> Shakespeare might have filled a similar niche in
> his time. Minus the women.

I was about to mention Titus Andronicus, which is indeed full of grotesqueries and was one of Shakespeare’s earlier works, just so I could comment that he’d started as a bit of a hack, but then really grew as an artist. But then I looked up the order in which it is assumed he wrote his plays and discovered that when he most likely wrote TA, he already had The Taming of the Shrew and Richard III under his belt. Whew!

For Elizabethan stage sex and violence, John Ford and John Webster are better options. There’s also The Revenger’s Tragedy, formerly attributed to Cyril Tourneur, but nowadays more widely thought to be by Thomas Middleton (“Not that it matters,” as Morla the Ancient would say).