Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments in reference to the OP's original
> question
> (1) I am aware of no hint that the lady she
> encounters is an "old lady".

She says "I am old, and a philosopher." That is why I mentioned her as an old lady.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 10:57AM by Minicthulhu.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
> She says "I am old, and a philosopher." That is
> why I mentioned her as an old lady.

Okay. But surely the suggestion is not that she is an old lady, but rather that she is old, and something other than a lady or any other mere mortal being.

Re: the reference to "apples of Sodom".

This is a reference of kind of fruit referenced by Josephus, which according to him grew near the Dead Sea, near the site of the destroyed city of Sodom. It looked good to eat to the eye, but turned to ashes when plucked. Tacitus refers to a similar legend. There has been some debate as to whether the tale was inspired by some real plant of the region.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments in reference to the OP's original
> question
> (1) I am aware of no hint that the lady she
> encounters is an "old lady". The suggestion is
> that he initially finds her attractive, but is
> turned off by such things as her morbid talk and
> (eventually) an odor of decay.
> (2) Just before she appears to deny that she is
> Xelucha, the tells him that he just read of her in
> a letter of Cosmo's. But the letter of Cosmo's,
> at least the quoted part, only mentions Xelucha.
> The only other women mentioned are 3 mythical
> "harlots" to whom Xelucha is briefly compared.

There are strange hints about the passages of time, too.

It seems like the narrator is genuinely surprised about how old he has become--almost as if the transformation happened quickly--if not over night, then in a disproportionately short period of time. He mentions 3 days...he mentions falling into a trance like petite mal...

Too, he mentions the letters in the cista as having yellowed with age.

I begin to suspect that none of any of this ever existed outside of a drug-induced fantasy as recalled by a profoundly addicted individual.

Not sure, of course.

I really like stuff like this...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> User Sad Marsh Ghost at the Ligotti forum wrote:
>
> "The weird tale's origins likely lie in poetry as
> it existed within that domain long before the
> short story became its primary form. Samuel Taylor
> Coleridge's Christabel predates Poe and Le Fanu
> and is as lyrical as Aickman or de la Mare's
> works.
>
> The closer to poetry a weird tale is, the purer it
> seems to me. M. P. Shiel's Ligeia knock-off
> Xelucha is a good example of a story in which plot
> is the least of its concerns.

Absolutely.

It is evocative, inspiring both fascination and repulsion, underlain by a vague dread.

And I think that's what the author was going for and not to convey a literal story about partying down with the likes of Cosimo, or literally meeting Xelucha. The story (plot) exists only as a vehicle to manipulate an emotional response.

> It is akin to music
> in its technique and intended effect. The more
> plot bound a weird/ghostly tale is, the more
> defined, codified and unmysterious it becomes.
> It's why I think Aickman's The School Friend is
> vastly superior to Lovecraft's The Dunwich Horror
> – both of which tell pretty much the same story,
> but Aickman is more concerned with the poetry of
> the scenario than materialist verisimilitude."

Xelucha leaves the same (or closely related) feeling as "Cordelia's Song".

“Cordelia’s Song from The King in Yellow” was published in Weird Tales (Apr 1938):

The moon shines whitely; I shall take
My silk umbrella, lest the moon
Too warmly fall upon the lake
And cause my bridal flowers to swoon.

The sparrow’s sorrow is in vain,
And so does he his bride forget.
I wed the long grass and the rain,
And seven sailors dripping wet.

And shall not you and shall not I
Keep tryst beside this silent stream,
Who thought that we should rather die
Than wed the peacock’s amber dream?

The moon shines whitely; I shall take
My silk umbrella, lest the moon
Too coldly fall upon the lake
And chill my bridal flowers too soon.

To a very large degree we have no real idea what's going on in either work, but there are disquieting hints...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 12:26PM by Sawfish.

Sawfish Wrote:
> Too, he mentions the letters in the cista as
> having yellowed with age.

Maybe this a bigger clue than we moderns might suspect. This was written in 1896. Was this not before the age of mass-produced paper that turns yellow within a decade? I'm not sure. I'm no expert in such things.

Sawfish Wrote:
> It is evocative, inspiring both fascination and
> repulsion, underlain by a vague dread.
>
> And I think that's what the author was going for
> and not to convey a literal story about partying
> down with the likes of Cosimo, or literally
> meeting Xelucha. The story (plot) exists only as a
> vehicle to manipulate an emotional response.

Not sure I can join you here. I am not incapable of enjoying a story or poem without understanding it, but if I don't suspect it means something, the spell is broken.

When I was young, I enjoyed Simon & Garfunkel's "The Sound of Silence", but 40 years of wondering what in hades they are going on about, and getting no clue at all, has rather dampened my enjoyment.

Late in life, I finally got around to listening to T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" read aloud by Alec Guinness. Somewhat to my surprise, I rather enjoyed it. I'll be damned if I can explain its meaning, though. For all I can be sure, perhaps it has no meaning at all. But I could not have enjoyed it without suspecting it meant something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 04:19PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

parts edited...


> Not sure I can join you here. I am not incapable
> of enjoying a story or poem without understanding
> it, but if I don't suspect it means something, the
> spell is broken.
>
> When I was young, I enjoyed Simon & Garfunkel's
> "The Sound of Silence", but 40 years of wondering
> what in hades they are going on about, and getting
> no clue at all, has rather dampened my enjoyment.
>
> Late in life, I finally got around to listening to
> T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" read aloud by Alec
> Guinness. Somewhat to my surprise, I rather
> enjoyed it. I'll be damned if I can explain its
> meaning, though. For all I can be sure, perhaps
> it has no meaning at all. But I could not have
> enjoyed it without suspecting it meant something.

FWIW, this makes sense to me...

Much of the reason I read certain types of fiction is simply to escape--it doesn't have to make sense in any meaningful way, it simply has to follow its own rules.

Simply put, anything with a deus ex machina fails the test *unless* it is recognized within thge work as divine intervention. They sort of have to admit that "yep, we cheated".

So in my posts on this thread I included Cordelia's Song. I'm damned if I know what it's about, yet its uncanniness grips me...

There are disquieting inclusions...

"I wed the long grass and the rain,
And seven sailors dripping wet."

Wow! What's *that* all about? To wed implies not only a sacred social vow, but its consummation...but wait...seven sailors? Whoa!

Dripping wet, when mentioned right after long grass and rain? Hmmmm....sounds distastefully like a serial copulation...and she's *telling* us about it?!

Similarly, there are some disquieting sexual images in Xelucha. "...the wet sword of Orion..." and others.

So there's no real narrative, but there are purposefully disturbing desciptive passages, and my guess is that this is the actual payload.

But this is only my opinion.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
> Similarly, there are some disquieting sexual
> images in Xelucha. "...the wet sword of Orion..."
> and others.

"... wet sword" = "bloody sword". Betelgeuse is here called the "wet sword of Orion" because it is positioned more-or-less where people imagine the giant Orion holding a sword above his head. It is called "wet" because Betelgeuse is a red star, which in this context suggests blood on the sword.

So the dead priest is pointing an accusing finger towards Orion with his red (bloody) sword (= Betelgeuse), as if it were Orion who slew him. Whatever that means.

Seems a bit of a stretch to make this a sexual double-entendre. But I guess it is tempting, because the story certainly has sexual themes. Even so, I suspect this projects back in time the modern mania for sexual imagery. In 1896, Freud certainly existed, but I don't think his ideas had much penetrated the popular consciousness.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> > Similarly, there are some disquieting sexual
> > images in Xelucha. "...the wet sword of
> Orion..."
> > and others.
>
> "... wet sword" = "bloody sword". Betelgeuse is
> here called the "wet sword of Orion" because it is
> positioned more-or-less where people imagine the
> giant Orion holding a sword above his head. It is
> called "wet" because Betelgeuse is a red star,
> which in this context suggests blood on the
> sword.

I see it differently...

[en.wikipedia.org]

and

[en.wikipedia.org]

This interpretation puts Orion's sword and or scabbard suggestive at his groin.

>
> So the dead priest is pointing an accusing finger
> towards Orion with his red (bloody) sword (=
> Betelgeuse), as if it were Orion who slew him.
> Whatever that means.
>
> Seems a bit of a stretch to make this a sexual
> double-entendre.

Less so if the sword is at his waist.

> But I guess it is tempting,
> because the story certainly has sexual themes.
> Even so, I suspect this projects back in time the
> modern mania for sexual imagery. In 1896, Freud
> certainly existed, but I don't think his ideas had
> much penetrated the popular consciousness.

I agree that I may well be bringing a lot of this interpretation with me, dragging modern sensibilities along.

How did you view that passage from Cordelia's Song? Did you find it suggestive? This is entirely separate from Xelucha, but I'm using it as a an example of a passage with similar submerged sexual imagery.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see it differently...
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> )#/media/File:Orion_(constellation)_Art.svg
>
> and
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> This interpretation puts Orion's sword and or
> scabbard suggestive at his groin.

Shiel and wikipedia are clearly referring to very different things. Shiel refers to Betelgeuse, or alpha (that is, Alpha Orionis), which "shoulders the wet sword of Orion".

What wiki calls the "sword" is also sometimes called the "scabbard", according to wiki. And I guess the reason some call it the "scabbard" is because some prefer to imagine the sword itself as being in Orion's hand, or at his shoulder.

And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a no-no word then.

> Less so if the sword is at his waist.

The text explicitly places it at his shoulder -- at Betelgeuse.

> How did you view that passage from Cordelia's
> Song? Did you find it suggestive?

I have not really formed an opinion. But since you ask, the thought did occur to me that sailors dripping wet is suggestive of drowned sailors.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 5 Jun 21 | 07:51PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I see it differently...
> >
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> > )#/media/File:Orion_(constellation)_Art.svg
> >
> > and
> >
> > [en.wikipedia.org]
> >
> > This interpretation puts Orion's sword and or
> > scabbard suggestive at his groin.
>
> Shiel and wikipedia are clearly referring to very
> different things. Shiel refers to Betelgeuse, or
> alpha (that is, Alpha Orionis), which "shoulders
> the wet sword of Orion".
>
> What wiki calls the "sword" is also sometimes
> called the "scabbard", according to wiki. And I
> guess the reason some call it the "scabbard" is
> because some prefer to imagine the sword itself as
> being in Orion's hand, or at his shoulder.
>
> And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would
> not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a
> no-no word then.
>
> > Less so if the sword is at his waist.
>
> The text explicitly places it at his shoulder -
> near Betelgeuse.

All sounds fine to me. I'll look again.

>
> > How did you view that passage from Cordelia's
> > Song? Did you find it suggestive?
>
> I have not really formed an opinion. But since
> you ask, the thought did occur to me that sailors
> dripping wet is suggestive of drowned sailors.

That's what I thought, too. The drowned sailors from Isle of the Torturers *immediately* jumped to mind. Very creepy.

I later softened the image to mere serial coitus.

Not very reassuring in any case, is it?

I view inclusions such as these as purposeful "mood influencers". In some works--those that attempt nothing more than many prose poems aim for--their goal seems to be setting a mood or emotional taste that's left with the reader.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit more about the passage referencing Betelgeuse...

Quote:

Xelucha:
Once, at two, near a corner, I came upon a priest, seated, dead, leering, his legs bent. One arm, supported on a knee, pointed with rigid accusing forefinger obliquely upward. By exact observation, I found that he indicated Betelgeux, the star ‘a’ which shoulders the wet sword of Orion.

I came pretty close to laughing aloud at this segment.

He finds a seated corpse, apparently near a street corner at 2 AM. As unlikely as this may be, it's compounded because this is a priest.

All well and good I suppose, but the priest (dead of dropsy, with a leer on his face), is seated upright somewhat. Strange as it seems he's pointing obliquely upward (a low angle, I'd suppose), so for the narrator to have determined with certainty where the priest pointed, he'd have to have gotten down on his hands and knees and squinted along the priest's arm and finger, a lot like aiming a rifle.

And I immediately thought:

"Yep. That seems natural, when finding a dead body at 2 AM: stoop down and see where, exactly, his finger is pointing...

"It's exactly what I'd do, too...".

I agree that the way Shiel describes Orion's sword it is as being "shouldered" on Betelgeuse, but I find no other references that anyone else envisions it as anything but a club. Certainly, the configuration resembles something a lot more like a club.

But as you say, it's how Shiel describes it...

What do you suppose the segment:

"... the star ‘a’ which shoulders..."

What is "star 'a"", do you think?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
> And I immediately thought:
>
> "Yep. That seems natural, when finding a dead body
> at 2 AM: stoop down and see where, exactly, his
> finger is pointing...
>
> "It's exactly what I'd do, too...".


Well, I guess he was not lying when he said his reason was debauched.

When did he last meet someone who was actually alive?

It is also amusing to imagine him crawling through long, lightless tunnels to reach Cosmo's palace, which he imagines to be a Roman villa. I guess it must be something else.


> What is "star 'a"", do you think?


It's just another name for Betelgeuse.

The major, visible, stars in constellations are distinguished by designating them with Greek letters in their traditional order: alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, etc. For instance, I guess you've heard that our closest star is "Alpha Centauri", which is the first (alpha) star in the constellation Centaurus ("the Centaur"). Another very close star, only 13 light years away, is Epsilon Eridani, which is the fifth (epsilon) star in the southern constellation Eridanus ("the River"). The alpha star of the constellation of Orion, "alpha Orionis", is better known as Betelgeuse.

>
> That's what I thought, too. The drowned sailors
> from Isle of the Torturers *immediately* jumped to
> mind. Very creepy.
>
> I later softened the image to mere serial coitus.
>
> Not very reassuring in any case, is it?

No, I guess not.

I can be a bit reluctant in assigning sexual interpretations to stuff written before the mid 20th century. I really do suspect people thought differently then. I guess I am just about the only person in the world who does not think CARMILLA is about lesbians.