Knygatin Wrote:

> Poetic consciousness was prevalent in Europe
> before the entrance of the Christian church.

Yes, and afterwards too. Poetic consciousness was, I suppose, the norm in the English-speaking lands and the West till the 20th century, and still is in many of the "undeveloped" locations. Sociological consciousness is, I suppose, rooted in the Enlightenment as an ideology (not in its real achievements). Marx, in the mid-19th century, was the great prophet of sociological consciousness. (I recommend Leopold Schwarzschild's classic biography, The Red Prussian.)

In the 20th century, Communism brought over 100 million lives to an end (for extensive documentation, see Harvard University Press's The Black Book of Communism). Hitler's National Socialism was a weird hybrid, an attempt to create a synthesis of pagan elements and sociological consciousness. Its inclusion of Marxist influences is not often mentioned by academics and activists, but read for yourself:

[www.independent.co.uk]


No real pagan revival is likely, though people may attempt it; but the oracles have fallen silent and the cry "Pan is dead!" rang out over two millennia ago, during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius.

[www.perseus.tufts.edu]

[www.perseus.tufts.edu]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
>
> > Poetic consciousness was prevalent in Europe
> > before the entrance of the Christian church.
>
> Yes, and afterwards too. Poetic consciousness
> was, I suppose, the norm in the English-speaking
> lands and the West till the 20th century, and
> still is in many of the "undeveloped" locations.
> Sociological consciousness is, I suppose, rooted
> in the Enlightenment as an ideology (not in its
> real achievements). Marx, in the mid-19th
> century, was the great prophet of sociological
> consciousness. (I recommend Leopold
> Schwarzschild's classic biography, The Red
> Prussian.)
>
> In the 20th century, Communism brought over 100
> million lives to an end (for extensive
> documentation, see Harvard University Press's The
> Black Book of Communism). Hitler's National
> Socialism was a weird hybrid, an attempt to create
> a synthesis of pagan elements and sociological
> consciousness. Its inclusion of Marxist
> influences is not often mentioned by academics and
> activists, but read for yourself:
>
> [www.independent.co.uk]
> itler-and-the-socialist-dream-1186455.html

Yes.

Do you ever seen Hitler and other western workld leaders of that era as the last gasp of Romanticism?

All if these guys read right straight out of Ayn Rand.

Too, I see an odd similarity between the Nazi movement and Japan's attempt to become a major world power at that time.

Both were deeply racially based. There would ultimately be a collision, had they prevailed.

There was a national/racial myth. Pagan Teutonic man on the one hand and the people of the living sun god.

And both cultures took a tremendous hit in terms of confidence and continuity after being punitively slapped down during, and immediately after, WWII. This was probably by designed policy--or should have been, at any rate.

WWII was an existential war.

>
>
> No real pagan revival is likely, though people may
> attempt it; but the oracles have fallen silent and
> the cry "Pan is dead!" rang out over two millennia
> ago, during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius.
>
> [www.perseus.tufts.edu]
> us%3atext%3a2008.01.0251
>
> [www.perseus.tufts.edu]
> us%3Atext%3A2008.01.0252%3Asection%3D17

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My issue with the return to paganism is that I don't think any modern person knows how to worship Odin, Dagda, or the ever-evolving Greek gods. The knowledge of these things is fragmented or speculated, and I find that many Neo-pagan movements have an atmosphere of artificiality and desperation, using synthetic creations based on questionable sources, or a sentimental view of the past decorated with golden baubles and royal dresses that the average ancient person wouldn't have owned.

Of course, you can partially blame Christianity for phasing out this knowledge, or for misrepresenting it via questionable manuscripts, but whatever the case the old religions are now fragmented at best, so there will never be a sincere revival.

As half-Japanese, I suppose I'm caught somewhere between the gods of Europe and the many many gods of Japan, but I don't sweat it. I appreciate how Japan is generally closer to its ancient ways than a lot of western Europe, but even Japan was modified into a materialistic consumers' paradise, bowing to every customer with a pleasant yet distant smile. Anyway, in some sense I feel greater affinity with gods of cosmic indifference and impermanence such as Cthulhu, Tsathoggua, Vergama, and Aforgomon. I guess I'm saying that while modern society sends itself on all these wild goose chases, I'll continue admiring the natural world and reading decent literature to the end of my days. :)

Japan used to be heavily invested in its own poetic consciousness. Maybe, if any westerner is willing to follow Lafcadio Hearn, a part of it can be experienced there. Just don't wander into any kinky cafes where waitresses dress in bikinis and cat ears!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 23 Jul 21 | 10:21AM by Hespire.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My issue with the return to paganism is that I
> don't think any modern person knows how to worship
> Odin, Dagda, or the ever-evolving Greek gods. The
> knowledge of these things is fragmented or
> speculated, and I find that many Neo-pagan
> movements have an atmosphere of artificiality and
> desperation, using synthetic creations based on
> questionable sources, or a sentimental view of the
> past decorated with golden baubles and royal
> dresses that the average ancient person wouldn't
> have owned.
>
>

I am sure the sources or understanding of their essences may be found in the right circles. But I agree, a genuine revival with sentimental attachments is doubtable. It will have to take a new dress.


"And out of the shadows, the older gods had returned to man: the gods forgotten since Hyperborea, since Mu and Poseidonis, bearing other names but the same attributes."

-Clark Ashton Smith

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My issue with the return to paganism is that I
> don't think any modern person knows how to worship
> Odin, Dagda, or the ever-evolving Greek gods. The
> knowledge of these things is fragmented or
> speculated, and I find that many Neo-pagan
> movements have an atmosphere of artificiality and
> desperation, using synthetic creations based on
> questionable sources, or a sentimental view of the
> past decorated with golden baubles and royal
> dresses that the average ancient person wouldn't
> have owned.
>
> Of course, you can partially blame Christianity
> for phasing out this knowledge, or for
> misrepresenting it via questionable manuscripts,
> but whatever the case the old religions are now
> fragmented at best, so there will never be a
> sincere revival.

As the self-declared least spiritual poster to ED, I still must admit to some level of sensitivity to something immaterial. It's probably what others refer to as spiritual, and I have no other word for it. The closest I can get is the word "awe".

So the spiritual feelings I get are almost solely from natural phenomena, like mountains, trees, landscapes, big storms, etc. I envision that this response is probably a lot like what our shambling, hairy forebears felt, nor did they apparently feel the need to codify this into various systems until much later.

And that's about where I am, developmentally, as a spiritual being, and why it is sometimes hard for me to follow the thoughts/ideas of other on this forum, apparently because I don't easily--if ever--transfer this feeling to other objects or concepts--except some very powerful objects of art.

...and I suppose now's the time to mention this, although I prefer to not have it advertised, or bruited about in any fashion...

I assume that everyone here has seen Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey. There's the opening sequence in which two bands of apelike creatures each approach the Black Monolith from different directions, they being separate tribes.

Then, to ascending music, one member of one of the tribes touches the monolith, and everything is different.

I have long suspected that I'm descended from the *other* tribe.

:^(

>
> As half-Japanese, I suppose I'm caught somewhere
> between the gods of Europe and the many many gods
> of Japan, but I don't sweat it. I appreciate how
> Japan is generally closer to its ancient ways than
> a lot of western Europe, but even Japan was
> modified into a materialistic consumers' paradise,
> bowing to every customer with a pleasant yet
> distant smile. Anyway, in some sense I feel
> greater affinity with gods of cosmic indifference
> and impermanence such as Cthulhu, Tsathoggua,
> Vergama, and Aforgomon.

Hah! Vonnegut, in one of his novels, has The Church of Christ, the Utterly Indifferent, whose core tenet is "Mankind should attend to his own work, and let God attend to his." Or something like that.

> I guess I'm saying that
> while modern society sends itself on all these
> wild goose chases, I'll continue admiring the
> natural world and reading decent literature to the
> end of my days. :)
>
> Japan used to be heavily invested in its own
> poetic consciousness. Maybe, if any westerner is
> willing to follow Lafcadio Hearn, a part of it can
> be experienced there. Just don't wander into any
> kinky cafes where waitresses dress in bikinis and
> cat ears!

Good God!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> In the 20th century, Communism brought over 100
> million lives to an end. Hitler's National
> Socialism ... Its inclusion of Marxist
> influences is not often mentioned by academics and
> activists, ...

It was national and racial solidarity that was important, not economic equalization or taxing people to death. Private businesses and initiatives were welcome, as long as not a threat to the people's health or to the nation.

Did you read the George Watson article at the link I posted?

I wonder if Nazi Germany was a bit like Red China today -- a totalitarian state influenced by Marx but allowing an element of state-monitored capitalism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23 Jul 21 | 03:11PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you read the George Watson article at the link
> I posted?
>
>

No, I didn't. I avoid mainstream (((media))). I am unfamiliar with Independent. What kind of newspaper is it? And who owns it?

I am really not very interested in what weaknesses Hitler's National Socialism had, as far as using that as an excuse for "guilt by association" and continuing on the misdirected path of today. What is important is what needs to be done today. Fact remains that homogenous countries, culturally and ethnically, work best and most harmoniously. Multiculturalism is a bad choice. The mass-immigration to Europe from Africa and the Middle East is a bad thing, and must stop, and those people need to be sent back to where they came from. It is either them or us. I choose us. Europe belongs to the Europeans. Or rather, as there are no absolutes, it is up to the Europeans to wake up, rise, and reclaim their land. Or else perish. Their choice.

Knygatin asked about my link to The Independent:

----What kind of newspaper is it?------

It's a British newspaper, mainstream media. George Watson was a controversial (in the present regard) historian. I thought he pointed out something of interest for modern history, though I have only an amateur knowledge thereof.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23 Jul 21 | 05:33PM by Dale Nelson.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am really not very interested in what weaknesses
> Hitler's National Socialism had, as far as using
> that as an excuse for "guilt by association" and
> continuing on the misdirected path of today. What
> is important is what needs to be done today. Fact
> remains that homogenous countries, culturally and
> ethnically, work best and most harmoniously.
> Multiculturalism is a bad choice. The
> mass-immigration to Europe from Africa and the
> Middle East is a bad thing, and must stop, and
> those people need to be sent back to where they
> came from. It is either them or us. I choose us.
> Europe belongs to the Europeans. Or rather, as
> there are no absolutes, it is up to the Europeans
> to wake up, rise, and reclaim their land. Or else
> perish. Their choice.

I concede all of what you say, K, but let's look at it like we look at global warming...

If the pundits were correct in the early 2000s, and I see no reason to suppose that they were far wrong, we basically missed the window of opportunity to significantly abate the predicted effects back around 2010.

OK, let's play with that. It means that energy needs to be spent in *adaptation* to the effects, and not so much in the prevention of them, because, Jeez, it's already too late. *They* told us that. long ago, and they wanted us to take them at their word, so I suggest that we do.

So the situation with multiculturalism is not congruent, but what, if anything, could be done to adapt to it?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I concede all of what you say, K, but let's look
> at it like we look at global warming...
>
> If the pundits were correct in the early 2000s,
> and I see no reason to suppose that they were far
> wrong, we basically missed the window of
> opportunity to significantly abate the predicted
> effects back around 2010.
>
> OK, let's play with that. It means that energy
> needs to be spent in *adaptation* to the effects,
> and not so much in the prevention of them,
> because, Jeez, it's already too late. *They* told
> us that. long ago, and they wanted us to take them
> at their word, so I suggest that we do.
>
> So the situation with multiculturalism is not
> congruent, but what, if anything, could be done to
> adapt to it?

It doesn't look very bright, does it? This may end in total anarchy.

By the way, I started watching Melancholia last night, ... synchronistic it seems, to increase my sense of helplessness related to our recent topics, ... perhaps this coincidence was meant to be for me, like so many other things in life that occur together. Melancholia could be interpreted as a metaphor for the present destruction of Western civilization. More on Melancholia later ...

But, we must not succumb to defeatism!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I concede all of what you say, K, but let's
> look
> > at it like we look at global warming...
> >
> > If the pundits were correct in the early 2000s,
> > and I see no reason to suppose that they were
> far
> > wrong, we basically missed the window of
> > opportunity to significantly abate the
> predicted
> > effects back around 2010.
> >
> > OK, let's play with that. It means that energy
> > needs to be spent in *adaptation* to the
> effects,
> > and not so much in the prevention of them,
> > because, Jeez, it's already too late. *They*
> told
> > us that. long ago, and they wanted us to take
> them
> > at their word, so I suggest that we do.
> >
> > So the situation with multiculturalism is not
> > congruent, but what, if anything, could be done
> to
> > adapt to it?
>
> It doesn't look very bright, does it? This may end
> in total anarchy.
>
> By the way, I started watching Melancholia last
> night, ... synchronistic it seems, to increase my
> sense of helplessness related to our recent
> topics, ... perhaps this coincidence was meant to
> be for me, like so many other things in life that
> occur together. Melancholia could be interpreted
> as a metaphor for the present destruction of
> Western civilization. More on Melancholia later
> ...
>
> But, we must not succumb to defeatism!

Never fear, old friend!

I'm going to continue along on my thoughts about the climate change/unrestricted immigration model, where I'm starting off with the assumption (which could change later to explore different cases) that there is no rolling back to the prior status quo, but that the way forward is a satisfactory adaptation.

Would separate, set-aside territories that state as a condition of their foundation, at the very highest level of law, that the intent of the newly formed nation/state is to maintain a certain set of traditions, and if this means strictly enforced immigration quotas--if indeed any immigration is allowed--based on whatever criteria is judged important to preserving the esteemed traditions, even race--would this be a path worth exploring?

I want to reassure you, too, that I will not attempt to trap or manipulate these discussions, as I've seen happen on other forums, and have happened *to me* on other forums. I'm just really interested in looking at all possibilities objectively, to see if they hold up to scrutiny. Some of these are verboten, but that still hasn't proven, to me, that they are objectively wrong.

Two examples: The Bell Curve--could it be correct in its basic argument, that statistically significant differences exist between the various tradition groupings of humanity, often called races?

Was the basic premise of what is labeled social Darwinism objectively incorrect, that certain cultures are less "fit" in the Darwinian sense to succeed and spread as the human environment evolves?

I can't tell you how many times I've been attacked for even stating these same propositions on other forums, so I just stopped doing it.

Makes me sympathetic to heretics.

Let's leave those alone, but I'm using them to show that I see nothing wrong about discussing the validity of these topics, nor others thought to be off limits in a sort of political/ideological sense. To mean, ideas exist on a separate plane from belief systems. They are sort of auditioning for inclusion into belief systems, and so are at an early exploratory stage.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:

> Would separate, set-aside territories that state
> as a condition of their foundation, at the very
> highest level of law, that the intent of the newly
> formed nation/state is to maintain a certain set
> of traditions, and if this means strictly enforced
> immigration quotas--if indeed any immigration is
> allowed--based on whatever criteria is judged
> important to preserving the esteemed traditions,
> even race--would this be a path worth exploring?

Who, in the English-speaking world at least, has a traditional consciousness such as you presume? That's a serious question even if it sounds like a rhetorical one.

I know of no such enclave, certainly none sizeable enough to be willing to try to make such a state come about and then able to sustain itself.

(You might be interested in Rod Dreher's blog entries of the past couple of months from Hungary, whose present, democratically-elected, government says it tries to preserve Hungarian identity. My sense is that, whatever else you could say, yea nay or neutral, about Hungary, its current project is doomed. Its citizens have internet, its young people travel, etc., to say nothing of the external pressures on a small country by bigger ones. My guess is that within ten years it will not be very different from its neighbors as regards immigration, etc.)

I've wondered if groups of immigrants to America could maintain themselves as communities with their own traditions and an element of poetic consciousness over against the sociological consciousness pervading and even hag-riding people who grew up and were educated here. If they exist, I might feel more affinity with such immigrant groups (even though their ethnicity differed from my own) than with people of my own majority ethnicity who think in terms of contemporary politics, airports rather than churches, the quantification of data about humans rather than the telling of stories, the habits of Marxist outrage rather than lives accountable to perennial ethics, and so on.

For example, I would rather pass the time of day chatting with a friendly mom in my neighborhood whose accent and appearance indicate that she grew up in another country, who grows vegetables in a teeming backyard garden for her husband and kids and goes to church (not mine, as it happens), who laughs and likes people -- than most of the people who teach in the academic division I used to teach in (all of them people of my own ethnicity). I'll go out of my way to avoid most of them. And I suppose they are more comfortable in meetings now that I'm retired.

Enjoy your good neighbors, and walk under branches.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jul 21 | 11:35AM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
>
> > Would separate, set-aside territories that
> state
> > as a condition of their foundation, at the very
> > highest level of law, that the intent of the
> newly
> > formed nation/state is to maintain a certain
> set
> > of traditions, and if this means strictly
> enforced
> > immigration quotas--if indeed any immigration
> is
> > allowed--based on whatever criteria is judged
> > important to preserving the esteemed
> traditions,
> > even race--would this be a path worth
> exploring?
>
> Who, in the English-speaking world at least, has a
> traditional consciousness such as you presume?
> That's a serious question even if it sounds like a
> rhetorical one.

It's a point of departure for speculation.

There is a move currently in OR, which will not come to fruition when viewed realistically, and it is to create the state of Greater Idaho by annexing large parts of mostly rural Oregon. There is a fair amount of vocal support--as there often is--but it's more determined and strident than usual for these sorts of symbolic propositions. And it's due to the very apparent sociological disruptions since about 2012.

So I am talking about this sort of grassroots desire to set off a portion of some nations, need not be English speaking, but there's no reason why not, if sentiments dictated strong support.

So, yes, in a sense I had in the back of my mind Idaho, which seems to me about halfway there, already.

[SIDE NOTE: I plan to alternatively explore a "what if" that postulates that the biological melding that is going on in the US and western Europe--the result of the very immigration polices that many find disturbing--may in actuality be producing the most Darwinian fit population given the current human environment.]

>
> I know of no such enclave, certainly none sizeable
> enough to be willing to try to make such a state
> come about and then able to sustain itself.
There's no telling for sure, and we're discussing not the *how*, but the *suitability as a solution*.

>
> (You might be interested in Rod Dreher's blog
> entries of the past couple of months from Hungary,
> whose present, democratically-elected, government
> says it tries to preserve Hungarian identity. My
> sense is that, whatever else you could say, yea
> nay or neutral, about Hungary, its current project
> is doomed. Its citizens have internet, its young
> people travel, etc., to say nothing of the
> external pressures on a small country by bigger
> ones. My guess is that within ten years it will
> not be very different from its neighbors as
> regards immigration, etc.)

Very possibly, but that's not the focus right now: if one *could* do it, would it be satisfactory as a solution?

>
> I've wondered if groups of immigrants to America
> could maintain themselves as communities with
> their own traditions and an element of poetic
> consciousness over against the sociological
> consciousness pervading and even hag-riding people
> who grew up and were educated here. If they
> exist, I might feel more affinity with such
> immigrant groups (even though their ethnicity
> differed from my own) than with people of my own
> majority ethnicity who think in terms of
> contemporary politics, airports rather than
> churches, the quantification of data about humans
> rather than the telling of stories, the habits of
> Marxist outrage rather than lives accountable to
> perennial ethics, and so on.

If what you are suggesting is that one could form a satisfactory polity from like-minded people of all races/ethnicities, this is yet another possible solution.

In a sense this is happening informally when country folk relocate to the cities. People are attempting to self-segregate into cosmopolitan sophisticates and rural traditionalists.

>
> For example, I would rather pass the time of day
> chatting with a friendly mom in my neighborhood
> whose accent and appearance indicate that she grew
> up in another country, who grows vegetables in a
> teeming backyard garden for her husband and kids
> and goes to church (not mine, as it happens), who
> laughs and likes people -- than most of the people
> who teach in the academic division I used to teach
> in (all of them people of my own ethnicity). I'll
> go out of my way to avoid most of them. And I
> suppose they are more comfortable in meetings now
> that I'm retired.
>

No need to account, so they can relax.

It's a lot like when the Atlantic online shut down the comments section.

> Enjoy your good neighbors, and walk under
> branches.

Here's a funny way to see fundamentalist Islam: they are very militantly trying to preserve many of the same sociological traditions that are under attack in the US.

Politics makes strange bedfellows, huh? :^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~