This discussion has me thinking that the answer to your question about when things were different would be: before the rise of nationalism.

It is right and natural that people should have a love for their patria, but that is something smaller than a modern nation-state and is largely displaced by national-state "patritoism".

A modern nation-state is bureaucratic, works towards centralization, works towards control of finance (hi, Knygatin!) and tends to want to project military might even in pointless wars, and encourages us to think of ourselves in sociological ways. A nation-state is much occupied with education, the mass production of people who will support the nation-state with their taxes, labor, lives, etc.

Thank you, Sawfish and Knygatin. I feel like a lightbulb has gone on for me.

As usual, my sensei C. S. Lewis has spoken to this topic. I will try to track down the reference, but anyway his desire was for a loose European federation, as I recall, of small states, e.g. Picardy, with their own roots -- NOT the gross nation-states we have.

[FOUND IT: [www.unz.com]

Scroll down to p. 57 for Lewis's paragraph]

It should be evident that poetic consciousness is unlikely to thrive in a sociological, bloated nation-state world with Departments of Education staffed by holders of Ed.D. degrees, and so on, with policy handed down by the Emperor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17 Aug 21 | 03:56PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> *I think part of what Knygatin is focusing on,
> when he writes of conspiracy or the pointlessness
> of elections, is this kind of thing.


No. You remain unwilling to see who rules. Not the presidents, not the state, (it would have been fine with a leader of and for the people.) The international (((Money Masters))) rule. We are slaves under them. And besides tearing down our culture, their system is why the rain-forests are cut down, orangutans and thousands of other species are extinguished, and the seas are now filled with plastic garbage. The capitalist system, with its uninhibited freedom of doing business, is by nature a fluid ecology that requires the constant transcendence of its natural limitations through destruction or integration.

In what way(s) do you feel yourself to be a slave, K?

Serious question.

Even apart from matters of faith, what impresses this retired teacher is how I and perhaps most people so often fail to use the freedoms we have, e.g. freedoms to study and to read certain illuminating books, freedom of travel, freedom of property ownership, of educating our children ourselves, etc.

Given that, what makes anyone think that we would use even more liberty in ways beneficial to ourselves and others?

I will not quarrel with you, K, and I grant that, just as you have probably not read any of the books I have recommended (e.g. The Abolition of Man), I haven't watched the 3+ hour video you recommend. After all, this is an email conversation and no one is obliged to invest more time in it than he chooses. (We have that freedom!)

As for our economic way of life... I would revise Wordsworth to fit our prevalent social values better.

Wordsworth wrote:

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;—
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!


This could be rewritten as advertising to fit us:

Getting and spending -- experience the power of MasterCard!
Too much of a sordid boon is great!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 18 Aug 21 | 10:26AM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In what way(s) do you feel yourself to be a slave,
> K?
>

As soon as we buy something from the market, cars, electronics, household utensils, clothes, light-bulbs, semi-finished food products, sweets, artificially fertilized fruit and vegetables (poisoning the agriculture fields with overfertilization and eventually it goes down into the seas), meat (cutting down primeval forests for pasture lands), short-term use plastic tools of all kinds, etc., etc., we are slaves under their Nature-destructive dominance. They dominate the supplies available. As soon as we put our children in school (which is law), we are slaves under their brain-infiltration (and yes, their tentacles reach into the private schools too. No one is allowed slip away from their grasp.). When we see a movie, or turn on the TV, they dominate us and decide what is available for us to see and hear. We are slaves under their News narrative. We are slaves under their forced multicultural society and mass immigration to our nations. When we get old and sick, we are slaves under their big corporation chemical drugs and antibiotics, that furthermore goes down the sewers and out into the seas, destroying wildlife. There is your capitalism "free market" consumers slave system.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In what way(s) do you feel yourself to be a
> slave,
> > K?
> >
>
> [1]As soon as we buy something from the market, cars,
> electronics, household utensils, clothes,
> light-bulbs, semi-finished food products, sweets,
> artificially fertilized fruit and vegetables
> (poisoning the agriculture fields with
> overfertilization and eventually it goes down into
> the seas), meat (cutting down primeval forests for
> pasture lands), short-term use plastic tools of
> all kinds, etc., etc., we are slaves under their
> Nature-destructive dominance. They dominate the
> supplies available. [2] As soon as we put our children
> in school (which is law), we are slaves under
> their brain-infiltration (and yes, their tentacles
> reach into the private schools too. No one is
> allowed slip away from their grasp.). [3] When we see
> a movie, or turn on the TV, they dominate us and
> decide what is available for us to see and hear.
> We are slaves under their News narrative. We are
> slaves under their forced multicultural society
> and mass immigration to our nations. [4]When we get
> old and sick, we are slaves under their big
> corporation chemical drugs and antibiotics, that
> furthermore goes down the sewers and out into the
> seas, destroying wildlife. There is your
> capitalism "free market" consumers slave system.

K, I don't know where you live. I'm largely ignorant of things outside the United States, which I take to be relatively free though less free than it was 15 years ago. Yet, even so:

[1] Much of the spending you describe is not absolutely necessary. I don't have to buy some of those things at all, and some of the others I can buy from local producers through farmers' markets, enterprises that bring locally-sourced vegetables and meat to your door, etc.

K, I agree that we do not have absolute economic freedom. But is it irresponsible to extend our relative freedom?

Someone said, "A man is rich in proportion to the things he can do without." Have you read anything by people who tried to simplify their lives? Can you get hold of Brend's Better Off: Flipping the Switch on Technology, or Bede Griffiths' The Golden String, with its chapter "An Experiment in Common Life," or Murray's Copsford?

[wormwoodiana.blogspot.com]

[2]In the United States, homeschooling is legal -- all 50 of them.

[hslda.org]

I expect the creeps of the Biden administration, their allies in the teaching "profession," etc. will move against homeschooling, but they will have a fight on their hands if they do. Homeschooling is growing. Like one kid in ten!

[www.educationviews.org]


[3]Don't watch that crap! Don't subscribe to streaming services. Take back your life from that slop. Are you afraid you wouldn't know what to do with your time without TV and movies?

[4]Do you live someplace where authorities can force you to take drugs you don't want to take?



I do agree with your concerns about chemicals in the soil and water, etc. But there are people trying to do things better.

[berrycenter.org]

[www.frontporchrepublic.com]

Would it be a good idea to make a list? --

1.List the genuine freedoms -- even if they are relative, not absolute -- that you have where you are. Take the time to do this in a serious manner.
2.List freedoms you definitely do not have where you are but might be able to enjoy elsewhere, e.g. if you moved from the city to the countryside, or even from your present country to another.
3.List freedoms that people in your place are exercising and perhaps extending, along the lines I have mentioned above.
4.Ask yourself if the thoughts and emotions you entertain in a typical day are the most productive of which you are capable right now. Do you have mental habits that make you feel less free than you are?

Let's talk some more.

And even if you decide to isolate from the rest, and live like Amish, you will still not be completely able to escape (((their))) grasp, influence, and pollution of the environment.

The president is merely a puppet. You don't need to watch that documentary to understand these things. Try to get a grip on (((who))) finances the presidential campaigns, try to find out what (((private bankers))) control the Federal Reserve Bank, ... then you should be able to put two and two together. It really is very simple.

Knygatin, I have this life to live, and I never expected to possess absolute freedom in it.

So the president's a puppet. Doesn't mean I am or you have to be one.

I'd just refer you to my previous message. You disagree, fine, but see if you can find something you can use too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Aug 21 | 12:17PM by Dale Nelson.

I have not said where I live, because I am deeply ashamed of it. 35 years ago I was not ashamed, it was a good country, with a fine international reputation. But today it has become the most liberal and self-destructive nation on Earth, completely in the hands of global finance. I live in Sweden. We are hijacked. But so is the rest of West Europe and USA, even if not to the same extreme dramatic immediate degree.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 18 Aug 21 | 12:36PM by Knygatin.

K, that explains a lot. My sympathies, brother -- I'm going to call you "brother" this time because I sympathize with you and because all my ancestors were from Sweden, every single one of them.

Yet even with things as dire as they are there -- I read with horror about Malmö -- here you are, a man who thinks his own thoughts at least to the degree that he can reject so much that he does reject, and possesses not just literacy, with all that that implies, but remarkable fluency in English.

So even as things are there, I hope you can be grateful for good things "they" have not kept from you.

Strength and courage!

Thank you very much Dale for your support.

Knygatin, you do live in a nation that takes a tyrannical line regarding homeschooling.

[hslda.org].

[www.rohus.org]

Oh, I am so sorry.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 18 Aug 21 | 01:21PM by Dale Nelson.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In what way(s) do you feel yourself to be a
> slave,
> > K?
> >
>
> As soon as we buy something from the market, cars,
> electronics, household utensils, clothes,
> light-bulbs, semi-finished food products, sweets,
> artificially fertilized fruit and vegetables
> (poisoning the agriculture fields with
> overfertilization and eventually it goes down into
> the seas), meat (cutting down primeval forests for
> pasture lands), short-term use plastic tools of
> all kinds, etc., etc., we are slaves under their
> Nature-destructive dominance. They dominate the
> supplies available. As soon as we put our children
> in school (which is law), we are slaves under
> their brain-infiltration (and yes, their tentacles
> reach into the private schools too. No one is
> allowed slip away from their grasp.). When we see
> a movie, or turn on the TV, they dominate us and
> decide what is available for us to see and hear.
> We are slaves under their News narrative. We are
> slaves under their forced multicultural society
> and mass immigration to our nations. When we get
> old and sick, we are slaves under their big
> corporation chemical drugs and antibiotics, that
> furthermore goes down the sewers and out into the
> seas, destroying wildlife. There is your
> capitalism "free market" consumers slave system.

[NOTE: I must use semi-colon in lieu of comma until my replacement comma key comes in the mail. My apologies!]

Respectfully; K; I feel that we have agency; and if we're willing to take more effort--in some cases A LOT more effort--it's possible to dodge much of what you describe.

And here's the kicker; as I see it: if you take this trouble and you succeed with it and are largely satisfied; no one comes and rounds you up; as they would if you were a slave.

I know about schooling--forked out a lot of money for private prep and college; and as you say; it has gotten t o be high-priced indoctrination. But it's also possible to either a) homeschool your kids; then send them to a college/university that states its doctrine that you'd find acceptable; or b) send them to selected religions schools.

My point being that no one stops you--and I take it that your point is that you should not have to do this; and I agree: you should not.

So it's needlessly hard; but possible; to do the "right" thing.

But there it is.

Nor do I insist I'm necessarily correct on this; I could be wrong; just lucky.

There is lots of room for respectful disagreement here at ED; in my opinion. That's one of the things that make it different.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Aug 21 | 01:04PM by Sawfish.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
SNIPPED...

>
> Strength and courage!


Ditto that; K! You're doing an admirable job of thinking for yourself--which is the single most important attribute any self-respecting person can aspire to.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A. MacIntyre, After Virtue:

----It is always dangerous to draw too precise parallels between one historical period and another; and among the most misleading of such parallels are those which have been drawn between our own age in Europe and North America and the epoch in which the Roman empire declined into the Dark Ages. Nonetheless certain parallels there are. A crucial turning point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead–often not recognizing fully what they were doing–was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition [is correct], we ought also to conclude that for some time now we too have reached that turning point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time, however, the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament. We are waiting not for a Godot, but for another–doubtless very different–St. Benedict [monastic community founder].----

With how much of this, K, Sawfish, and others, can you agree?

And -- seriously -- I do mean this -- in what ways might our favored authors help, if at all?

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A. MacIntyre, After Virtue:
>
> ----It is always dangerous to draw too precise
> parallels between one historical period and
> another; and among the most misleading of such
> parallels are those which have been drawn between
> our own age in Europe and North America and the
> epoch in which the Roman empire declined into the
> Dark Ages. Nonetheless certain parallels there
> are. A crucial turning point in that earlier
> history occurred when men and women of good will
> turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman
> imperium and ceased to identify the continuation
> of civility and moral community with the
> maintenance of that imperium. What they set
> themselves to achieve instead–often not
> recognizing fully what they were doing–was the
> construction of new forms of community within
> which the moral life could be sustained so that
> both morality and civility might survive the
> coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my
> account of our moral condition , we ought also to
> conclude that for some time now we too have
> reached that turning point. What matters at this
> stage is the construction of local forms of
> community within which civility and the
> intellectual and moral life can be sustained
> through the new dark ages which are already upon
> us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able
> to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we
> are not entirely without grounds for hope. This
> time, however, the barbarians are not waiting
> beyond the frontiers; they have already been
> governing us for quite some time. And it is our
> lack of consciousness of this that constitutes
> part of our predicament. We are waiting not for a
> Godot, but for another–doubtless very
> different–St. Benedict .----
>
> With how much of this, K, Sawfish, and others, can
> you agree?

OUCH!

Lots.

I think it's true that one should resist the easy temptation to point to the dissolution of Rome (kingdom to republic to empire until dissolution) and some of the parallels between the late republic and late 20th/early 21st C United States; but some of the contemporary descriptions of the shift from community focus to individual focus seem unmistakenly recognizable.

I'm reading Sallust's Catiline War ~63 BC. He details how formerly Roman citizens had rigorously pursued high standards of behavior and achievement; but that gradually; accompanied by repeated flirtations with semi-permanent dictatorships (formerly limited by law to a) special circumstances and b) one year in duration); the highest levels of landed families; mimicked by the common people; became increasingly self-indulgent to the point that they were apathetic.

The causal arrow is not entirely clear; but it seemed that as Rome became increasingly wealthy; less and less was required of the emerging generations; the lack of rigor and responsibility encouraged self-indulgence out of boredom; essentially; and this created a moral vacuum into which unprincipaled leaders arose. Lucius Catiline was one such.

It's easy to detect this in many of the contemporary recorders of the era: Livy; etc. I think from their POV they don't actually see cause and effect as clearly as I believe we can see it now.

>
> And -- seriously -- I do mean this -- in what ways
> might our favored authors help, if at all?

I can't say--I'm too far gone... :^(

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18 Aug 21 | 11:10PM by Sawfish.