Dale Nelson Wrote:
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> K, that explains a lot. My sympathies, brother --
> I'm going to call you "brother" this time because
> I sympathize with you and because all my ancestors
> were from Sweden, every single one of them.
>
>

Brother and friend,

Dale, from the origins of the Orthodox Church I would have guessed you came from Eastern Europe, or South-Eastern Europe, ... from your name, Old England. But, on the other hand, some of the best fighting blood and spirit of Sweden emigrated to USA. And they did not come to a land of welfare tickets for free life-time support, they had to struggle and build something.

I see USA as the frontier of the survival of the fittest. That is why this country has produced some of the greatest creative and inventive individuals, in science, art, and literature. While Europe has cultivated and refined its old ghosts. Both are (or were) essential parts of Western civilization.

Knygatin, I like various books written from within Orthodox tradition, but I'm not a communicant member of any of the Orthodox churches. Certain Orthodox practices and secondary doctrines are problematic, so far as I'm concerned.

I'm an adult convert to conservative Lutheranism. I'm a member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. You can find out more about the LCMS here:

[www.lcms.org]

Unlike many denominations, the LCMS has no women pastors. We hold to traditional Christian beliefs about sexuality.

I looked around, wondering where I would go to church if I lived in Sweden. I don't read Swedish, so I can't read this document:

[missionsprovinsen.se]

I believe that is the church body I would seek out if I lived in Sweden. It seems to be close to the LCMS.

The "Lutheran" church with which you may be familiar, the big one in Sweden, is unacceptable. Its lesbian bishop and so on are indications of deep corruption. I would enjoy looking over some of their old buildings. I do have a high regard for Bo Giertz (died 1998), who was a bishop in this church in a time when it was not so bad as it's become. He retired in 1970.

I know almost nothing about Swedish-American literature. I thought the Norwegian novelist Rølvaag's Giants in the Earth was a good story about the region in which I live.

[en.wikipedia.org])



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 21 Aug 21 | 08:59AM by Dale Nelson.

In school I was classmate with the daughter of the Swedish Lutheran bishop over the region I live in. He was High Church Lutheran and firmly opposed the ordination of women.

Today the Lutheran national church of Sweden has a woman (if one can call her that, because she has none of the warmth of the female principle) archbishop, and the church is more or less united with the Social Democratic party, actively preaching their political manifests. The bishop of Uppsala county is a female gay activist. The rainbow pride flag has become an obligatory decoration of the state church (and inside all of the state universities); there was even a touring art-exhibition visiting the churches in each city with paintings representing Jesus as homosexual with erect penis. And they now hand out multi-gender guides for "Christian queer kids".
As if that wasn't enough, Sweden's commander in chief over the military, walks and dances with drag queens in the pride processions, promotes the pride flag as the most important flag worth defending, and fills the army with women and transsexuals.

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World.

Back to sane reality. Vilhelm Moberg was a Swedish author who wrote a series of famous novels about the emigrants who settled in USA. Late in life he said that Sweden is not a democracy, but a democratorship (dictatorship pretending to be a democracy).

A favorite Swedish poet/bard I have started reading lately, is Carl Michael Bellman (1740-1795). He composed songs (mostly bacchanalian drinking songs, mixed with beautiful pastorals and religious poetry) that lively captures the culture and spirit the 18th century, with its stark contrast between ecstatic revelry and mundane misery. He performed these with lute, for the royalties and others. He was a good friend of the Swedish king Gustav III, the last true Swedish king we had before the Freemasons took control over this country.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> SNIPPED...
>
> >
> > Strength and courage!
>
>
> Ditto that; K! You're doing an admirable job of
> thinking for yourself--which is the single most
> important attribute any self-respecting person can
> aspire to.

I admire your own passion for this too.

Only dead fish swim downstream.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The "Lutheran" church with which you may be
> familiar, the big one in Sweden, is unacceptable.
> Its lesbian bishop and so on are indications of
> deep corruption. I would enjoy looking over some
> of their old buildings. I do have a high regard
> for Bo Giertz (died 1998), who was a bishop in
> this church in a time when it was not so bad as
> it's become. He retired in 1970.

Yes, Giertz was predecessor to bishop Bertil Gärtner, whom I have been more familiar with.

> I know almost nothing about Swedish-American
> literature. ...

There is Ray Bradbury!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22 Aug 21 | 12:53AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> A favorite Swedish poet/bard I have started
> reading lately, is Carl Michael Bellman
> (1740-1795). He composed songs (mostly
> bacchanalian drinking songs, mixed with beautiful
> pastorals and religious poetry) that lively
> captures the culture and spirit the 18th century,
> with its stark contrast between ecstatic revelry
> and mundane misery. He performed these with lute,
> for the royalties and others. He was a good friend
> of the Swedish king Gustav III, the last true
> Swedish king we had before the Freemasons took
> control over this country.


ROTFLMAO
You are aware, are you not, that Bellman as well as your dear favourite Gustav III were Freemasons themselves?

Martinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > A favorite Swedish poet/bard I have started
> > reading lately, is Carl Michael Bellman
> > (1740-1795). He composed songs (mostly
> > bacchanalian drinking songs, mixed with beautiful
> > pastorals and religious poetry) that lively
> > captures the culture and spirit the 18th century,
> > with its stark contrast between ecstatic revelry
> > and mundane misery. He performed these with lute,
> > for the royalties and others. He was a good friend
> > of the Swedish king Gustav III, the last true
> > Swedish king we had before the Freemasons took
> > control over this country.
>
>
> ROTFLMAO
> You are aware, are you not, that Bellman as well
> as your dear favourite Gustav III were Freemasons
> themselves?

"Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off", eh? Laughing at me, are you?! That is offensive, and it makes me sad to receive such a refutation, over tangled historical details over 200 years old. Instead of arguing your cause in a cultivated manner. You really seem to have some political attitude invested in all of this. I would guess leftwing liberal. Am I right? Because it is often their habit to laugh off political dissidents. Let's discuss in a civilized effort, shall we?

I never said Gustav III was a "dear favorite". I don't know him that well. Not the best of kings, but he was at least a patron of the Arts (very much in trend with the current time). And he was of Swedish royal heritage. He was murdered by Ankarström, who was likely not a Freemason, but used by them, serving as a tool. This was followed by a few uneasy years with Gustav III's failing son, and then Gustav III's weak-willed brother, as kings. During the last few years Jean Bernadotte was the actual ruler behind the scenes, conspired to that position by the Freemasons, until he finally became king; he was handpicked in France by the Freemasons, to serve their interests. Jean Bernadotte was earlier involved with Napoleon in the French Revolution war (which was financed by Rothschild). In Sweden his name was changed to Karl XIV Johan, so that the Swedish people would accept him. With his coronation the influence of the monarchy in Sweden was permanently lessened. Ever since then the Freemasons have had dominating control over the parliament of Sweden, to protect their own interests. And the parliament and the media (that they also own), and hence the news narrative, are in league. We can see the same thing in other European countries. England is a clear example.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ... Gustav III ... was at least a patron of the Arts (very
> much in trend with the current time).

Unsure if "current" is correct use of English here. I meant that particular time which was current to him, the Rococo culture of the 1700s.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > ... Gustav III ... was at least a patron of the
> Arts (very
> > much in trend with the current time).
>
> Unsure if "current" is correct use of English
> here. I meant that particular time which was
> current to him, the Rococo culture of the 1700s.

Contemporaneous.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Contemporaneous.


Thank you.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Contemporaneous.
>
>
> Thank you.


Not needed. :^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > Contemporaneous.
> >
> >
> > Thank you.
>
>
> Not needed. :^)


Oh now, on the contrary. Absolutely. ;)

Knygatin Wrote:



> Yes, Giertz was predecessor to bishop Bertil
> Gärtner, whom I have been more familiar with.



> There is Ray Bradbury!


Giertz's novel Stengrunden, known in my circle as The Hammer of God, is a conservative Lutheran favorite -- I like it very much myself.

As for Ray Bradbury -- I never thought of him as a Swedish-American author. I'd be delighted to claim him as such!

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
>
> > Yes, Giertz was predecessor to bishop Bertil
> > Gärtner, whom I have been more familiar with.
>
> > There is Ray Bradbury!
>
> Giertz's novel Stengrunden, known in my circle as
> The Hammer of God, is a conservative Lutheran
> favorite -- I like it very much myself.

Giertz wrote several books, and was a very respected priest in Sweden. Before the downfall of society. I have not read the book Stengrunden, his most famous probably; I am not an active Christian, so I don't have that particular interest.

My mother converted to the Catholic church, because she thought the Lutheran national church was sloppy. That was in the 1970s. But she got into an argument with the priests about a certain priest who wanted to marry a woman but was not allowed to. After that she stopped going there. He eventually resigned from his post, and became a professor of theology in the city of Lund; and married.
I went to Catholic kindergarten, and have retained an aesthetic preference for the Catholic church. But lately I have become convinced that it is wrong to deny Catholic priests to marry, it goes against Nature. Concerning Catholic nuns, they seem somewhat better off in accepting their position with satisfaction. They are often cheery and enthusiastic. I have fond memories. I was something of a favorite with the leading nun at kindergarten, and received a very nice little crucifix from her when I left.

Luckily we have a High Lutheran church nearby, who opposes much of the Lutheran national church. The building itself is not so beautiful as the old churches, but you can't have everything in these times, I guess.

> As for Ray Bradbury -- I never thought of him as a
> Swedish-American author. I'd be delighted to
> claim him as such!

A far stretch perhaps. But his mother immigrated from Sweden.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22 Aug 21 | 04:16PM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, Giertz was predecessor to bishop Bertil
> > > Gärtner, whom I have been more familiar
> with.
> >
> > > There is Ray Bradbury!
> >
> > Giertz's novel Stengrunden, known in my circle
> as
> > The Hammer of God, is a conservative Lutheran
> > favorite -- I like it very much myself.
>
> Giertz wrote several books, and was a very
> respected priest in Sweden. Before the downfall of
> society. I have not read the book Stengrunden, his
> most famous probably; I am not an active
> Christian, so I don't have that particular
> interest.
>
> My mother converted to the Catholic church,
> because she thought the Lutheran national church
> was sloppy. That was in the 1970s. But she got
> into an argument with the priests about a certain
> priest who wanted to marry a woman but was not
> allowed to. After that she stopped going there. He
> eventually resigned from his post, and became a
> professor of theology in the city of Lund; and
> married.
> I went to Catholic kindergarten, and have retained
> an aesthetic preference for the Catholic church.
> But lately I have become convinced that it is
> wrong to deny Catholic priests to marry, it goes
> against Nature. Concerning Catholic nuns, they
> seem somewhat better off in accepting their
> position with satisfaction. They are often cheery
> and enthusiastic. I have fond memories. I was
> something of a favorite with the leading nun at
> kindergarten, and received a very nice little
> crucifix from her when I left.
>
> Luckily we have a High Lutheran church nearby, who
> opposes much of the Lutheran national church. The
> building itself is not so beautiful as the old
> churches, but you can't have everything in these
> times, I guess.
>
> > As for Ray Bradbury -- I never thought of him as
> a
> > Swedish-American author. I'd be delighted to
> > claim him as such!
>
> A far stretch perhaps. But his mother immigrated
> from Sweden.

Did either of you think that you'd be marginalized within the traditional doctrines of your church; as it "evolved" from beneath you?

This is largely how I feel philosophically--what mystifies me. I essentially moved nowhere for the last 30 or so years philosophically; and now I'm way out there; on an island. This is essentially an 80s centrism.

I'm not sure I've ever found a historical account of any preceding era where something like this has happened in so short a time. It is like a multi-generational evolution within the space of about 10-15 years.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~