Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I looked this up in the Catholic Encyclopedia
> on
> > the New Advent website. The article on
> Witchcraft
> > contains the following:
> >
> > ...
> > Supposing that the belief in witchcraft were an
> > idle superstition, it would be strange that the
> > suggestion should nowhere be made that the evil
> of
> > these practices only lay in the pretending to
> the
> > possession of powers which did not really
> exist.
>
> Not really. Christianity uses fear and guilt
> associations to manipulate and control people.

Umm. Okay.

But the discussion was about texts written by the ancient Hebrews, before Christianity.

What you are taking issue with is not even what I quoted the Encyclopedia for. It is merely stuff I left in, because I was reluctant to remove any context that might be relevant. And your response seems a bit of a non-sequitur.

But I agree with the Encyclopedia writer that the ancient Hebrews probably did believe in witchcraft.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Platypus Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I looked this up in the Catholic Encyclopedia on
> > > the New Advent website. The article on Witchcraft
> > > contains the following:
> > >
> > > ...
> > > Supposing that the belief in witchcraft were an
> > > idle superstition, it would be strange that the
> > > suggestion should nowhere be made that the evil of
> > > these practices only lay in the pretending to the
> > > possession of powers which did not really exist.
> >
> > Not really. Christianity uses fear and guilt
> > associations to manipulate and control people.
>
> Umm. Okay.
>
> But the discussion was about texts written by the
> ancient Hebrews, before Christianity.
>
> What you are taking issue with is not even what I
> quoted the Encyclopedia for. It is merely stuff I
> left in, because I was reluctant to remove any
> context that might be relevant. And your response
> seems a bit of a non-sequitur.
>
> But I agree with the Encyclopedia writer that the
> ancient Hebrews probably did believe in
> witchcraft.

I commented on the final part in your quote, about the objection to whether the belief in evil only be pretended instead of real. I thought that was topically sufficiently within your and Sawfish' extended discussion to make my comment acceptable. But I may have misinterpreted.

Christianity is a historical extension of the Hebrew. And is ultimately still controlled by Hebrews. It uses subconscious superstition of evil, and the fear of God, by which to manipulate and control people. This is how the people of Europe and USA are controlled today, through the more modern "secularized" extension of political correctness. The extension of Christianity has done enormous damage to European culture and thinking.

I am allergic to when Westerners, white Europeans, promote Christianity.

Thank you for the exchange.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Christianity is a historical extension of the Hebrew.
>

It is an extension of the Hebrew mindset. Christianity is their "gift" to Europe, a devious Trojan horse, a weapon to conquer Europe and destroy the European people. A war that has been intensified over the past few centuries. To make us meek, deny our identity, and welcome our own extinction. Christianity is anti white. To follow it is suicidal. They have almost succeeded in the mass destruction of Europe and its people, through two Wars (yes, the hebrew money-mongers, Rothschild, instigated them), and now through organized mass import of aliens from Africa and Middle East, and systematic anti white propaganda, and a third War in the plans. It is a crime against humanity. What needs to be exterminated is not what Christianity teaches us is "evil". It is instead Christianity itself that must be removed from Europe. Along with the other two Semitic religions, Judaism and Islam. They don't belong there. They are enemies.

If you only could see past your Christian upbringing indoctrination, you would understand why I am so upset. Our Civilization and people are at stake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31 Jan 22 | 05:40AM by Knygatin.

I've seen this sentiment before, regarding the purging of Christianity from western society because Jews are using it to control us. I never understood what made this sentiment any less of an indoctrination than Christianity, but perhaps that's just my mixed blood and general disdain toward dogmatic ideologies.

Regarding the original subject of this thread, the fear of the wicked dead is older and more widespread than Judaism. Many ancient religions, like those of the Egyptians and Mesopotamians, believed that the dead would harm the living if the living failed to acknowledge them with offerings, though in these cases the dead were "wicked" because their afterlife would be unbearable without such offerings. Meanwhile, Buddhism integrated many folk cultures throughout Asia, allowing all the vengeful ghosts, angry ancestors, and animated corpses from native shamanistic cultures to continue haunting the living, despite the belief in reincarnation and Nirvana. I'm not sure how that works, but I know that the Buddhist hungry ghost is a miserable state you are reborn in as punishment for an impulsive and immoral life. This tells me that the wicked dead from a Buddhist perspective are people unwilling to let go of their worldly attachments, demonstrating how such attachments are blind and foolish (though such ghosts can also end up as tools for karma against living people who deserved it, as demonstrated in some Japanese folk tales).

Japan is filled with ghosts (yūrei) who exist for the sake of satisfying their vengeance, which will never truly be satisfied, and so they will continue harming or killing the living even after having their vengeance on their original victim.

Also, Norse culture believed in something very similar to Tolkien's barrow-wights. I don't know the spiritual ideas behind it, and I'm sure the Norse themselves didn't have any strict beliefs about it, but their ghosts were often corpses that animated themselves through wrath, vengeance, or obsessiveness, and they either dwelled eternally in their barrows to guard their treasures, or wandered the land where they died to harm every single human they find. Icelandic sagas implied that the dead were very similar to ogres in that they were huge human-shaped creatures with superhuman strength and violent tempers, and they also had sorcerous powers with which to conjure flames, turn invisible, or transform themselves. I don't know how Norse sages dealt with them in their folk religions, but in the written sagas such ghosts are often subdued or even killed through a good old-fashioned fight.

I don't know how much I can contribute to this thread because I know very little about Christianity, but I thought it might be a little helpful or useful to include these non-Christian ideas of of wicked dead.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 31 Jan 22 | 11:52AM by Hespire.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regarding the original subject of this thread, the
> fear of the wicked dead is older and more
> widespread than Judaism. Many ancient religions,
> like those of the Egyptians and Mesopotamians,
> believed that the dead would harm the living if
> the living failed to acknowledge them with
> offerings, though in these cases the dead were
> "wicked" because their afterlife would be
> unbearable without such offerings. Meanwhile,
> Buddhism integrated many folk cultures throughout
> Asia, allowing all the vengeful ghosts, angry
> ancestors, and animated corpses from native
> shamanistic cultures to continue haunting the
> living, despite the belief in reincarnation and
> Nirvana. I'm not sure how that works, but I know
> that the Buddhist hungry ghost is a miserable
> state you are reborn in as punishment for an
> impulsive and immoral life. This tells me that the
> wicked dead from a Buddhist perspective are people
> unwilling to let go of their worldly attachments,
> demonstrating how such attachments are blind and
> foolish (though such ghosts can also end up as
> tools for karma against living people who deserved
> it, as demonstrated in some Japanese folk tales).
>
> Japan is filled with ghosts (yūrei) who exist for
> the sake of satisfying their vengeance, which will
> never truly be satisfied, and so they will
> continue harming or killing the living even after
> having their vengeance on their original victim.
>
> Also, Norse culture believed in something very
> similar to Tolkien's barrow-wights. I don't know
> the spiritual ideas behind it, and I'm sure the
> Norse themselves didn't have any strict beliefs
> about it, but their ghosts were often corpses that
> animated themselves through wrath, vengeance, or
> obsessiveness, and they either dwelled eternally
> in their barrows to guard their treasures, or
> wandered the land where they died to harm every
> single human they find. Icelandic sagas implied
> that the dead were very similar to ogres in that
> they were huge human-shaped creatures with
> superhuman strength and violent tempers, and they
> also had sorcerous powers with which to conjure
> flames, turn invisible, or transform themselves. I
> don't know how Norse sages dealt with them in
> their folk religions, but in the written sagas
> such ghosts are often subdued or even killed
> through a good old-fashioned fight.
>
> I don't know how much I can contribute to this
> thread because I know very little about
> Christianity, but I thought it might be a little
> helpful or useful to include these non-Christian
> ideas of of wicked dead.

This thread was not supposed to be just about a discussion of Christianity. So thank you for the above thoughts. My only objection is that you have not illustrated any of the generalizations you make with examples of actual stories. They don't have to be literary monstrosities like THE TURN OF THE SCREW, but it would be nice if they had enough touches of the storyteller's art that they can be read and appreciated AS stories.

The closest you come is to reference the sagas. I have read GLAMR (1863) by Sabine Baring-Gould, which is adapted from the Icelandic Sagas, but this version at least, has Christian influences. I shall have to double check if they are original to the saga, but Glamr comes back from the dead in part because he is a wicked man who never goes to church. (Edit: I just checked William Morris' translation of the story of Grettir the Strong, and it also references Glam never going to church and loathing church-song).

Without specific examples, it is hard to talk about comparing the Western ghost story from the non-Western ghost story, or the Christian ghost story from the Pagan ghost story.

Your reference to cultures that make offerings to the dead, whom they fear, suggests to me a different thought -- not so much that the dead are regarded as wicked, but that they are regarded as analogous to gods that should be worshipped. As I said, there may be a thin line between regarding the dead as wicked and being afraid of them, but your example here seems to underscore the idea that these are not necessarily the same thing. A Christian, of course, would be forbidden by his religion from adopting a posture of worship towards his dead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31 Jan 22 | 06:09PM by Platypus.

In that case, allow me to refresh my memory with some scannings of old books and assorted files, that way I can share specific stories recorded by specific authors. The Japanese ghost stories are too numerous, and collected in various books by different authors. Off the top of my head, the Japanese myth of the first man and woman, Izanagi and Izanami respectively, as recorded in the ancient manuscript called the Kojiki, might feature elements related to the wicked dead, though it is not purely a wicked dead story. I own a copy of the English translation by Donald Philippi (I hardly know Japanese!!!), which offers some thoughts on the ideas behind it.

In that story, the primordial woman Izanami is the first human to die, and therefore the first person to reside in the underworld, Yomi. Her husband Izanagi misses her dearly, and enters a cavern to Yomi. There he discovers that she had decayed into a walking corpse, the sight of which terrifies him so much that he flees. Angered by this, she and an army of monstrous guards and hideous hags pursue him, wishing to keep him trapped in Yomi forever. He closes the cavern to Yomi, and his furious wife exclaims that out of vengeance she will kill hundreds of humans every day, and he answers that humans will birth hundreds more every day to even it out. This is obviously not a proper story of the wicked dead, but Philippi quotes Japanese scholars who believe the story represents the division between the purity of life and the impurity of death (both physical and spiritual), and why the two can never co-exist. I'm sorry this isn't close to the topic at hand, but the Kojiki definitely creates a tense relationship between the dead and the living, and Izanami is like a prototype of yurei stories in which ghosts become unreasonably violent because of a sudden obsession with negative emotions. I will find specific Yurei stories.

You make a good point regarding the difference between the dead being wicked and the dead being feared and respected. If we are looking purely for the dead as malign entities, I'll have to keep a closer eye on such details in my scannings.

Thanks for reminding me of the story of Glamr. I had forgotten he was a man renowned for his evil even in life! And the rest of the sagas being largely Christianized accounts of pagan matters definitely muddles things. Much of what we know comes from Christian accounts!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 31 Jan 22 | 07:14PM by Hespire.

Hespire, WRT to Buddhism & Japan, in particular, my wife told me a funny old saying she heard from the old people:

"You live as a Buddhist, but die as Shintoist." Or something like...

To the degree that Buddhism avoids treating the Buddha as a prophet, but more as a philosopher, I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

In that flavor, it is less theological, and more like enlightened practical avoid for how to live your present life.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd have to speculate that Izanagi and Izanami did not have a completely happy marriage.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire, WRT to Buddhism & Japan, in particular,
> my wife told me a funny old saying she heard from
> the old people:
>
> "You live as a Buddhist, but die as Shintoist." Or
> something like...
>
> To the degree that Buddhism avoids treating the
> Buddha as a prophet, but more as a philosopher, I
> think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
>
> In that flavor, it is less theological, and more
> like enlightened practical avoid for how to live
> your present life.


I learned that from my mother long ago! Although it really went "You live as a Shintoist, and die as a Buddhist." Having never truly grown up with either religion (though finding both fascinating), I could never truly appreciate its meaning, but it seems to be about the life-embracing qualities of Shintoism; its eagerness for festivity and nature, which in some ways could be at odds with the highly detached and afterlife-concerned Buddhism. Sort of the best of both worlds, ensuring you get the most out of this world while being prepared for the next.

I agree it makes sense though, and I prefer approaching the Buddha as a human philosopher who shares interesting thoughts and suggestions more than a lordly divinity.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've seen this sentiment before, regarding the
> purging of Christianity from western society
> because Jews are using it to control us. I never
> understood what made this sentiment any less of an
> indoctrination than Christianity, but perhaps
> that's just my mixed blood and general disdain
> toward dogmatic ideologies.
>
>

Off-topic comment:

It is not so much about ideology, as about observing reality, and making a stand for the survival of my own people and culture.

Hespire, you have been very open about your parentage. And for understandable reasons, that I need not repeat here, you seem to have emotionally sidled towards your mother. You really embrace Japanese culture, and nearly always emphasize this interest in your posts. We are all closest to ourselves, and identify most strongly with our own heredity. It is only natural.

But you don't seem aware that the leftwing liberal ideology of "anything goes", is totalitarian and dogmatic in itself. It is another devious way of absolute political control. It is not really freedom, as it purports itself to be. It is the intentional weakening and breakup of independent nations and cultures.

rnHespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hespire, WRT to Buddhism & Japan, in
> particular,
> > my wife told me a funny old saying she heard
> from
> > the old people:
> >
> > "You live as a Buddhist, but die as Shintoist."
> Or
> > something like...
> >
> > To the degree that Buddhism avoids treating the
> > Buddha as a prophet, but more as a philosopher,
> I
> > think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
> >
> > In that flavor, it is less theological, and
> more
> > like enlightened practical avoid for how to
> live
> > your present life.
>
>
> I learned that from my mother long ago! Although
> it really went "You live as a Shintoist, and die
> as a Buddhist."

Hah!

I probably got it backwards, and my thought process, such as it was, probably was "Well, I'm not Japanese, so I may never get it ...".

>Having never truly grown up with
> either religion (though finding both fascinating),
> I could never truly appreciate its meaning, but it
> seems to be about the life-embracing qualities of
> Shintoism; its eagerness for festivity and nature,
> which in some ways could be at odds with the
> highly detached and afterlife-concerned Buddhism.

Shintoism to me looks a lot like many other fairly primitive animist religions that are uniquely evolved to a specific group--and insular as Japan has been--and still is, to a degree--the Japanese are a dinstinctly identifiable group.

Added to thde animist backbone seems to be a hyper-reverence for ancestors, making the religion a sort of self-worship, in a way.


> Sort of the best of both worlds, ensuring you get
> the most out of this world while being prepared
> for the next.
>
> I agree it makes sense though, and I prefer
> approaching the Buddha as a human philosopher who
> shares interesting thoughts and suggestions more
> than a lordly divinity.

To me, much of the advice about how to seek contentment rather than ecstasy is of great value. So far as passivity and a sort of stoicism, I think that to navigate the modern world, hypertense and neurotic as it seems to be, you need to be able to turn the stoicism/passivity on and off at will.

In the world in which I live, if one is too stoic and passive, you will be ground down into a nubbin.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
> Off-topic comment:
>
> It is not so much about ideology, as about
> observing reality, and making a stand for the
> survival of my own people and culture.
>
> Hespire, you have been very open about your
> parentage. And for understandable reasons, that I
> need not repeat here, you seem to have emotionally
> sidled towards your mother. You really embrace
> Japanese culture, and nearly always emphasize this
> interest in your posts. We are all closest to
> ourselves, and identify most strongly with our own
> heredity. It is only natural.
>
> But you don't seem aware that the leftwing liberal
> ideology of "anything goes", is totalitarian and
> dogmatic in itself. It is another devious way of
> absolute political control. It is not really
> freedom, as it purports itself to be. It is the
> intentional weakening and breakup of independent
> nations and cultures.

It's nice that you are willing to question and challenge the morally nihilistic, arbitrary, and oppressive ideology of the current year. It is less nice that you have nothing to fall back on except the morally nihilistic, arbitrary, and oppressive ideology of the first half of the 20th century. What exactly is this culture you are defending? Because I am pretty sure you do not remember the pristine paganism of pre-Dark-Age Europe. Whatever it is you value, it is hardly safe if those who you would place in charge can arbitrarily smear any aspect of it they please as guilty-by-association with some weird amorphous transcendent concept of "Jewishness" via an elaborate game of 666 degrees of Kevin Bacon. Which also reminds me of the smear tactics used by certain current ascendant ideologies. Only the details differ. Anyhow, I was trying to discuss ghost stories here, and if you can ever bring yourself to stop worrying about their Jewish influences, you are more than welcome to join in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 1 Feb 22 | 06:29PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Anyhow, I was trying to discuss
> ghost stories here, and if you can ever bring
> yourself to stop worrying about their Jewish
> influences, you are more than welcome to join in.
>

Heh, I knew it would come to something like this! The ultimate core of political correctness. The roof of the discussion and forum has been reached. And the gag has been applied.

If you want to know who is in control, look at who you are not allowed to criticize or even discuss. Several US states have today even outlawed any public criticism against Israel's politics or actions.

But I see it is useless. Your PC perspective will remain. I can not reach past your solid mind blocks, not even with a tentative exploration of the influence.

I promise you, I will not press it further. I admit it is delicate, and conceivably even dangerous for the individual who utters anything related.

We all bow out with bent backs.

Knygatin Wrote:
--------------------------
> Heh, I knew it would come to something like this!
> The ultimate core of political correctness. The
> roof of the discussion and forum has been reached.
> And the gag has been applied.
>
> If you want to know who is in control, look at who
> you are not allowed to criticize or even discuss.
> Several US states have today even outlawed any
> public criticism against Israel's politics or
> actions.
>
> But I see it is useless. Your PC perspective will
> remain. I can not reach past your solid mind
> blocks, not even with a tentative exploration of
> the influence.
>
> I promise you, I will not press it further. I
> admit it is delicate, and conceivably even
> dangerous for the individual who utters anything
> related.
>
> We all bow out with bent backs.

I never said you were not allowed to criticize the Jews. It is only a bee in your own bonnet that is excluding you from the ghost story discussion, and that was all I was referring to. But by all meant, come up with an example of a Jewish ghost story, and we can all criticize it or not as we please. Alternatively, come up with an example of a ghost story of which you approve, that is in your mind completely free of some fourth-degree attenuated taint of Jewishness. I am genuinely interested in all ghost stories.

Problem is, you want to eradicate Jewishness, and your ideas of Jewishness are so broad that no aspect of traditional Western culture is necessarily safe from your desire to eradicate it. This is the mirror image of current authoritarian doctrines, where the definition of Anti-Jewishness can be expanded and contracted at will, to designate anything one is NOT allowed to criticize. Your thinking is so broad that you see no difference between a 1st century Galiliean fisherman preaching against the evils of wealth, and a 20th century mega-rich banker, merely because it is possible to describe both as Jews. Both are part and parcel of the same breathtakingly vast conspiracy, the fear of which has paralyzed your ability to think.

Want to prove me wrong? Just start talking about ghost stories for a change.

Since I just mentioned Jewish ghost stories, and to get somewhat back on topic, the only sort-of "Jewish" tale of the "wicked dead" that I am able to think of is the opening "dybbuk" episode of A SERIOUS MAN (2009) a film by Joel and Ethan Coen.

The entire scene is under 7 minutes long, and is a stand-alone mini-film in its own right, whose relationship to the rest of the movie is debatable at best. As I write, it can be found on youtube, via the following link:

[www.youtube.com]

Personally, I very much enjoyed it. It's creepy. The actors are great, especially the wife. But, like much of the Coen brothers' work, it is frustratingly ambiguous. Am curious what others think of it (you too, Knygatin).

As I understand it, a "dybbuk" is a possessing spirit from Jewish mythology, which, unlike the possessing demon of Christian tradition, is generally regarded as a spirit of the dead, and which is capable of something analogous to demonic possession, usually of living persons. But though the idea is old, I know of no dybbuk STORIES (as such) that are earlier than Ansky's play from the 1920s (which, from the summaries I have read, does not seem to have much to do with the idea of the wicked dead).

In this case, the wife's theory seems to be that the spirit of a dead man has been seized by the Devil, and now wanders the earth as a dybbuk, his appearance reflecting the moment when the Devil seized his spirit -- a moment that occurred between the time the left and right cheek of his corpse was shaved.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2 Feb 22 | 12:05PM by Platypus.