a Platypus Wrote:
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> Since I just mentioned Jewish ghost stories, and
> to get somewhat back on topic, the only sort-of
> "Jewish" tale of the "wicked dead" that I am able
> to think of is the opening "dybbuk" episode of A
> SERIOUS MAN (2009) a film by Joel and Ethan Coen.
>
> The entire scene is under 7 minutes long, and is a
> stand-alone mini-film in its own right, whose
> relationship to the rest of the movie is debatable
> at best. As I write, it can be found on youtube,
> via the following link:
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> Personally, I very much enjoyed it. It's creepy.
> The actors are great, especially the wife. But,
> like much of the Coen brothers' work, it is
> frustratingly ambiguous. Am curious what others
> think of it (you too, Knygatin).
>
> As I understand it, a "dybbuk" is a possessing
> spirit from Jewish mythology, which, unlike the
> possessing demon of Christian tradition, is
> generally regarded as a spirit of the dead, and
> which is capable of something analogous to demonic
> possession, usually of living persons. But though
> the idea is old, I know of no dybbuk STORIES (as
> such) that are earlier than Ansky's play from the
> 1920s (which, from the summaries I have read, does
> not seem to have much to do with the idea of the
> wicked dead).
>
> In this case, the wife's theory seems to be that
> the spirit of a dead man has been seized by the
> Devil, and now wanders the earth as a dybbuk, his
> appearance reflecting the moment when the Devil
> seized his spirit -- a moment that occurred
> between the time the left and right cheek of his
> corpse was shaved.


Is this the same Coen film in which a rabbi relates an experience in which he was approached by a dentist in his congregation for advice about the meaning of the Hebrew writing he found on the inside surface of a goy patient's lower teeth?

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Sawfish Wrote:
> Is this the same Coen film in which a rabbi
> relates an experience in which he was approached
> by a dentist in his congregation for advice about
> the meaning of the Hebrew writing he found on the
> inside surface of a goy patient's lower teeth?

Yes, same film. A rather useless rabbi, IMHO, but, as always, it is hard to nail down the Coen brothers' opinion on the matter.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2 Feb 22 | 01:21PM by Platypus.

In the Islamic world, ghosts (evil or otherwise) seem to have no particular prevalence. At least, I can think of no examples. I recall none from the ARABIAN NIGHTS. I have heard that the vrykolakas was known to Christian and Muslim populations in Turkey, but I don't know if these were necessarily the undead variety.

The Islamic tomb or graveyard is instead thought of as haunted by the ghoul, who is never, as far as I know regarded as the spirit of a dead person. At least, that idea is alot more common.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the Islamic world, ghosts (evil or otherwise)
> seem to have no particular prevalence. At least,
> I can think of no examples. I recall none from
> the ARABIAN NIGHTS. I have heard that the
> vrykolakas was known to Christian and Muslim
> populations in Turkey, but I don't know if these
> were necessarily the undead variety.
>
> The Islamic tomb or graveyard is instead thought
> of as haunted by the ghoul, who is never, as far
> as I know regarded as the spirit of a dead person.
> At least, that idea is alot more common.


I suppose it has to do with their theological beliefs. In Islam, once the soul is gone it never returns to this world. I don't know if pre-Islamic cultures had their own ghost stories which were later changed into jinn stories, but I would be interested in finding out.

Regarding yurei, it turns out that most of my books don't have much information on them, especially not from a scholarly approach. Even Hearn has little to say about them, though he revels in Japanese stories of weirdness. Most of the ghost stories he recorded are less about yurei (vengeful souls driven to harm all living things) and more about nature-spirits, shape-shifting animals, and ghosts that might be scary but not innately wicked or violent. Still, I dug up a book I purchased long ago but haven't read much of, which could be useful for this thread, titled Yurei The Japanese Ghost. It has several chapters devoted to the history and evolution of the archetype, and some samples of folk stories. I'll be sure to report my findings here!

I don't wish to derail this thread, so I'll make a quick declaration that I am not so close to my heritage. I know some things due to my family of course, and I enjoy learning things about the old country, but I find that my personality is a bit closer to the American side. I think I would be a freak in Japan, due to my strict individualistic beliefs and stronger American emotions, timid as I am for an American. I bring up Japanese folklore from time to time because I feel they would fit well with a website devoted to CAS, who admired Japanese culture and Lafcadio Hearn's literature, and supposedly owned a Japanese scroll depicting a fox-spirit, or kitsune. My own yearnings lie in the far northern cultures, from the Inuit to the Norse, which matches my melancholy mood and appreciation for rugged nature and culture.

I am also more interested in the ghost stories of Norse folk, for their ghosts sound a lot more monstrous and weird compared to either American or Japanese ghosts. I'd like to learn how much of their ghostly culture is derived from paganism or Christianity. Supposedly the early Norse believed in multiple souls, almost like the Egyptians, and one of these souls remained on earth to become the monstrous and violent draugr I described earlier, but so far I have little luck on finding further info.

Hespire, my wife tells me about "obaki stories". Is that something you heard about?

Bear in mind my wife is from Hawaii, 2nd gen born there, and Hawaii imposes a sort of eclecticism on modern inhabitants. Too, all of her family had no pretensions to any kind of status--many of those who went to Hawaii were essentially the least valued--peasants, for sure, from small villages.

She said that she had heard from some of the old people--those who actually came over--that when some of them went they were given a sort of send-off in honor of self-sacrifice. That by leaving the village, there would be more resources to go around.

Sounds grim, but my wife is one of the most jolly, good-natured people you'll ever meet. She reminds me of the working women in Princess Monooke, if I have the spelling right--very earthy and funny!

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hespire Wrote:Even
> Hearn has little to say about them, though he
> revels in Japanese stories of weirdness. Most of
> the ghost stories he recorded are less about yurei
> (vengeful souls driven to harm all living things)
> and more about nature-spirits, shape-shifting
> animals, and ghosts that might be scary but not
> innately wicked or violent.

I've read only a little of Hearn. But was impressed by MUJINA. Not necessarily a spirit of the dead, nor even necessarily wicked. But scary.