Have any of you fellows read and enjoyed Tolkien's The Book of Lost Tales and/or The Lays of Beleriand? They are my favorites of his works, and strike me as similar to CAS in style. High, inventive language; an ancient, "wierd" feel; clever, ironic humor. What do you think? Regards.
--

Michael Falconer - [ulmo.mux.net]
"Because by fate even the gods are cast down, weep ye all with me."

Well I have read no Tolkien, just never got around to it, and based on the one lord of the rings movies that I have seen, I'm in no rush.

Falconer wrote:

> Have any of you fellows read and enjoyed Tolkien's
> The Book of Lost Tales and/or The Lays of
> Beleriand?

Not as far as I can remember, but you make them sound interesting.

> They are my favorites of his works, and
> strike me as similar to CAS in style. High,
> inventive language; an ancient, "weird" feel;
> clever, ironic humor.

Yes, definitely interesting.

These works were written in a fragmentary manner over JRR's lifetime, occasionally to create his own mental background for the 4 completed works. As mentioned before on this forum, I had the privelege of attending a master's graduate seminar with Prof. Tolkien in 1963 (sadly unable to attend a similar study with CS Lewis as he died that year).
In reading his work, you will be handicapped at getting the depth of it if not more than casually acquainted with the "magisterium" of the
RC church for which his work is both an "Apologia" and a way of expressing the magnitude of the sacrifice required to defeat (not totally, since Sauron is himself a servant) evil. The power and range of his symbology, also plunges deeply into all the mythological archetypes of Icelandic and Norse mythology in the service of the larger cause. My contact with the class at that time was fused with my interest in pursuing ancient "Ogham", "Futhark" writings and the druidic
runes associated therewith. Prof. Tolkien was an absolute master of the Nordic studies and easily on a par with Robert Graves (with whom he was at odds over some of his conclusions, but admired nonetheless). I regret I did not think to ask him whether he knew CAS' work. Whatever likeness you may find between the unfinished tales and CAS is purely coincidental, and due to the natural similarities found in mythmaking.
Clark's scholarship however, was of a totally different nature. Actually REH's Conan writings borrowing as they did both legendary materials, place names, and character names wholesale form Irish mythology are in someways closer to the Belerian tales -- The hero,
Cuchullain (Coo-cullen - "cullen's hound)is a very near prototype to
Conan and several of Tolkien's heroic, mightly characters - particularly in battles with the great hound, or the great worm.
Interesting side note for those who might launch into the great Icelandic Sagas, the Eddas et al.-- Iceland is a spelling which entered English as a minunderstanding of the phoneme - It is anciently, "Isenland", meaning "Iron Land" - ruled in ancient times by some very tough women - but that's a tale you have to read - great fun.
Another quick side note, T.E Lawrence, himself a considerable linguist who had crossed paths with Lewis somehow in WWI briefly observed a great similarity in the Bedouin story-telling style - epic, elevated language etc. - much interesting history here, must go however.

Falconer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have any of you fellows read and enjoyed Tolkien's
> The Book of Lost Tales and/or The Lays of
> Beleriand? They are my favorites of his works, and
> strike me as similar to CAS in style. High,
> inventive language; an ancient, "wierd" feel;
> clever, ironic humor. What do you think? Regards.

I have read the Lost Tales and most of HoME with a zeal. In fact, "Book of Lost Tales I" was probably the first complete book I read in English (I'm not a native speaker), at 14 or so, because "Silmarillion" and "Unfinished Tales" were about the only posthumously published works by Tolkien that were translated into Finnish, and I wanted more. Certainly not the easiest place to start in a foreign language, but very rewarding. It's probably fair to say that I really learned to read English by going through the History of Middle-earth series. It was only later that I learned that reading Kalevala in the original Finnish version set Tolkien in the course of inventing his Legendarium!

But I digress. I did and do very much enjoy the Lost Tales and other unfinished works by JRRT. It's such a lamentable loss to literature that he never completed the Turin Saga, for instance. I can't imagine liking just the Rings, for me the whole creation is a whole. If asked to pick a choice for the greatest artistic work in history (a silly excercise, I concur), I'd without a hesitation elevate the whole corpus of writings concerning Middle-earth -- it's quite without a parallel and likely to remain so, as I don't see another professor of philology embarking on a such task for more than 50 years.

***

As to Boyd who hasn't read the LotR, forget about the movies, they've got nothing on the original...

***

Dr. Farmer's remark about Iceland actually being Isenland was very interesting. I thrive on learning etymological tidbits like this. And I have to envy him for attending a seminar with Tolkien.

Studying with Tolkien is a great way to learn to appreciate a fine pipe, and several tobacconists today have created a "longbottom" and "Old Toby". You will find Isenland and its mythic history in the publications of the Noroena society (out of print, but no too hard to find) - these include "Burnt Njal", the Eddas, the Heimskringla, the Icelandic Sagas, and so on - about 12 volumes as I recall - I own 6, and am strggling to gain expertise in Old Futhark, since there are very clear Viking inscriptions in Eastern Oklahowma - Inscriptions in Ogham are found in New England, Arkansas to Colorado, up the rio de Janiero, and there is a possible find in Vancouver BC. There are some who dismiss these finds as a hoax, but just don't like there pre-conceived ideas knocked into a cocked hat -- also they have not seen the sites - either the publically accessible or those locations where the owners have requested anonymity - but i have seen them, read them, and they are real -- The first finds in OK hit the news in the 50's and Clark was delighted with the notion that there were Western people's here in
"elder days" -- "when Hobbits shook the counsels of the mighty"

walrus wrote:

> probably fair to say that I really learned to read
> English by going through the History of
> Middle-earth series. It was only later that I
> learned that reading Kalevala in the original
> Finnish version set Tolkien in the course of
> inventing his Legendarium!

He based Elvish on Finnish and Welsh, I think.

> As to Boyd who hasn't read the LotR, forget about
> the movies, they've got nothing on the
> original...

I liked the first in parts but the second was dire. I couldn't believe so much money had been spent on it: the scenes with horses seemed particularly unrealistic.

> Dr. Farmer's remark about Iceland actually being
> Isenland was very interesting. I thrive on
> learning etymological tidbits like this.

Be careful with etymology. It's not an exact science, but that's part of its charm. This is a good site:

[www.etymonline.com]

As mentioned in this thread, some of the early Tolkien could be compared with the works of Clark Ashton Smith. Indeed, I hold the view that both of these writers share a unique command of the english language. They know how to inspire a wealth of feelings in their use of words - especially with their capacity to generate atmosphere. As a youngster, I liked Tolkien's work a great deal more. For me though, only Clark Ashton Smith could come close to producing works of fantasy which are always readable; never dull and sufficient to satisfy my yearning to read more. My favourite Tolkien story is his classic, "The Lord Of The Rings".