There is much interesting to read on the Forum back through the years of posting, about Clark as a person and the events in his life, as generously shared by Dr. W. C. Farmer and others.

I wonder about Clark's relationship to the behaviors and manners of adulthood and parenthood. When Clark moved in with Carol, did he take on a role of acting father for her children, doing things like helping with homework, advising and scolding? Or was he more like a friend of the family, who kept some distance?

Did he ever express sorrow about not having childring of his own, and the family branch being cut off?
I am sure he could philosophise past it, in a cosmic perspective, but he was after all also human.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15 Nov 08 | 07:38AM by Knygatin.

Carol's kids were "rebellious teenagers" as quoted elsewhere in a de Camp intro I think. The kids were not at home hardly ever after Clark moved in, and were difficult - as I am sure it was difficult for them to have Mom bring home a stranger from remote Auburn - there was no pre-marital meeting with them that I recall, it was just "here he is" - Carol was by the standards of the time a groupie to the "artsy", Bohemian world of Carmel and environs - loved to sun bath nude in the tiny back yard with the almost high enough fence - Clark did not do much in the way of child rearing but try to "lie low" and hope they stayed out of his hair - I did not meet the son (now College Journalism prof, but good-looking athletic blondie as a boy; the daughter was an excessively nubile 16 year old whom I met (mercifully) only once -- more exposure would have been far too distracting, and would have lessened the time spent with Clark - remember the niece of the Bishop of Chichester in the Limerick? ah me, wasted youth. Clark was more than reconciled to his bachelor state (though not celibate!), his circumstances of caring for elderly and dying parents were a greater priority, slightly ahead of his writing sometimes - He (and Carol) referred to me as their "spiritual son" in an inscription of a book -- Clark wanted to be in relationship with the young very much in the manner Sterling had had with him - mentor, encourager, and one who delighted in the bright creative mind of someone who might be able to (however slightly) momentarily wear the magic glasses allowing him to see the universe through his eyes, and revel in it. He never expressed regrets about not fathering children -- He was a supremely practical man within the limits of the life he had chosen, and there were plentiful examples (including his own) of the strain of a penurious existence - I think he knew that had he become a father, his profound sense of personal responsibility would have meant the need to find a source of steady income beyond writing, pruning, and picking fruit -- he was, after all, within the social contract,had he opted to sign it, a Victorian.

Thank you for that glimpse into his life!

Thank you for that brightly illuminative little piece of CAS history! It would have made a wonderful element in a full published biography.

thanks, feel free to use it - footnoted of course - I wonder if anyone is left besides myself, Don Fryer and Rah Hoffman who ever visited the cabin in Auburn -- most have gone on I'm sure - the Sully's, Roy Squires, the Novaks, and the denizens of the Happy Hour bar -

Well, if you were to write a CAS biography, as a combination of personal experiences and research, I would buy it on the spot. Although I am not sure such digging is your field of interest. You certainly seem to have enough energy though, in spite of all.

"--He was a supremely practical man within the limits of the life he had chosen,.."

Being a poetic dreamer and practical at the same time, is a rare and fortunate combination. He must have been practical, to be able to get all those richly soaring fantasies down on paper. "Artist" is probably a better definition of CAS than "fantasist". Since an artist is a worker with actual tools, assembling together a definite material manifestation, even though that sharply defined composition may give the illusion of something ethereal and limitless, or points towards otherworldy spiritual realms.

He was not practical to the extent of being mentally occupied with materialistic workings, values, and material possessions, as an end in itself, like many simple people are. His abhorrence of cars is a clear indication. And not in the least impressed by gaudy contrivances and gimcrack. He was practical to be able to handle the absolute necessities of life, and in his art was practical only as a means to reach a higher spiritually exalted end. A Dreamer, with practical abilities. (My bold claims about a man I never knew.) Although, he obviously enjoyed some things sprouting up from old Earth for their very own sake, like a good wine and female curves.



I could go on asking forever about Clark's life, but I feel I have to rein myself or I'll become a damned nuisance...

...But then again, it's for the shared enjoyment of everybody, and anyone is free to answer, or not, so I guess I'll go ahead anyway...

What is the winter climate in Auburn like, or at the time Clark lived there? Was it below freezing point, and snow on the ground? It must have been tough, and taken much of his attention just keeping the cabin tolerably warm.

Could anyone provide a simple drawing of the cabin, with the basic outline of the rooms and their rough measurements? And perhaps furniture, wall hangings, creaking floorboards,... etc. It would be very interesting, both from a cultural perspective, and to get an idea of how living and working in the cabin was, and the social situation.

I have a photo of the cabin approached from below - very small, 4 rooms, screened porch, many objects like wooden boxes adapted for use as table and chair - wicker bottom chairs (2 or 3) - calendars of various years on the walls - kerosene lanterns, both table and hanging type - don't know about the beds except that clarks's boyhood bed was the typical frame and rope base with feather tucker on top -- home made quilts - not fancy, but serbicable - outhouse, one-seater - no corn-cobs but magazines, catalogs, and newspaper - small outbuilding which had been chicken house, closed up for storage - seen in photo in "Sword of Zagan" photo taken while making fire-breaks - hand dug well, with very stout well-house about 5 x 5 - thick door and thick walls insulated with tightly rolled newspapers ( I helped redo some of these walls one day where the insulating wads had sunkdown - the room was very cool and served as refrigeration (I grew up in the South with a similar arrangement - basket which could lowered into the well to keep milk, eggs, and butter cold - rope lowered bucket for water -

Climate - Clark's cabin slightly above the mean altitude of 1200 feet -
Auburn bragged at being "above the fog, below the snow" - though I have experienced fog there so dense one had to drive with the door open to see the line on the pavement - occasional freeze, but rare - snow sometimes, but again, infrequent, and short lived - just enough that the nasty 8th graders could hit us first graders with snowballs with rocks in them. Since the cabin was on the rim of the canyon, they had some slightly more ominous winds than in the main town, and slightly lower temperature, but not significant - most of the year the weather is excellent - and evenings in late spring through the summer into late fall are perfect for sitting in the yard in whatever state of semi-dress one might desire until the wee hours of the morning with little or no chill to the air - 'twas a grand place indeed - and ideal for the weak-chested and tubercular - many a citizen had moved there precisely for that reason. The cabin was heated with standing Kerosene heater -
a lovely place for an iron kettle of water for tea, shaving, cooking, whatever - the house had a wood stove for cooking, properly banked it could warm the house, but would drive you out on a warm day - Clark spent a good deal of time keeping the stove wood properly cut and supplied, and indeed was justly proud into older age of his skills with an ax.

Invaluable! Thank you!

From this inventory I have the impression that life in and around the Smith cabin was really quite good, despite its simplicity!

If Clark was able to chop off the chickens' heads, then I am forever convinced that he was a genuinely and thoroughly practical man. But I doubt it. I can't picture him doing that. Also I remember reading somewhere, if it was in Farmer's memoir, that the chickens were kept for eggs.

The Auburn climate is truly Arcadian. I can imagine the long sunsets there, filling the glens with golden elfin light. It must have had an important impact in the shaping of his fiction. I'm sure there were fauns scurrying in the bushes and dryads flitting between the trees, normally unconcerned with humans, but stopping to curiously observe this remarkable man as he penned down his otherworldly visions in the shade of the leaves.

(This is my singular favorite image of a bucolic scene. Link. In the distance a man is driving an ox. There is plenty of time to finish work, pace of life is slow. The young shepherd (Endymion?) resting in the arbour, without worries.
The English Romantic painter Samuel Palmer's (1805- 1881) work reminds me, by the way, somewhat of CAS's drawing and painting style.)

I was amusingly half-expecting that the walls in Smith's cabin would have pictures of dragons, trolls and faries. Like many of today's fantasy fans have. But NO, of course not! Inane. But old calendars? That sounds decrepit, unless they featured pretty pictures. Didn't Clark's paintings grace the walls?

Were the rooms divided into a larger common room with the stove, and three smaller bedrooms (or former bedrooms, for each person in the family)? How was Clark's room arranged where he sat and wrote?

Several q's to answer: When a hen stops laying, she goes into stew, some eggs are allowed to hatch (Clark and I both agreed that hens without a rooster is unthinkable), and hens raised to replace aging ones, and rooster chicks raised as future dinners - the necks are wrung first, and, after appropriate amount of flopping about, chopped off, then the fun part of plucking - feathers saved to make or restuff bolsters - and yes, Clark was adept at all of the above. No Clark art on the wall when I knew him - his art work had begun to acquire some value, and was kept in a small trunk - loosely - the carvings were arrayed along the inside shelf (2x4) that framed the screened porch.
The building was about 24 x 20, the rooms of equal size - 10x12 or thereabouts - sitting room, kitchen, 2 bedrooms - Clark's room was not,per se, "decorated" - other than with books currently checked out from the library, and his own work in progress, or storage. The calendars were variously of the decorative type received by his Mother as bonuses for clients of her magazine business - therefore, traditional outdoor scenes or artwork in the late 18th century style of idealized life (charming girls with curls and ribbons, in full period dress, merrily frolicing on swings hung by floral ropes, etc. - greeting card sentmentality - the important decoration was a good bottle of cheap burgundy or madeira (more accesible in those days than now - Haak vinyards is my only source in Texas - but a gallon of Loomis burgundy was 69cents, and the standard wine bottle size, commonly emerging from Clarks's modest paper sack of groceries esd 28cents.
Clark, by the time I knew him well was not writing much and was just about the Marry - however he commonly carved under the Oak by the wood stove he fired them in - there was a ramshackle four legged table which served as dining table and writing table - his supplies (foolscap, envelopes, stamps, pencils and pens, were, however, meticulously organized each in its place - a practice which persisted after the move to Pacific Grove.

Thank you for another beautiful piece of CAS life. Delicious! I am almost sitting there in the cabin now! On a wicker chair, looking at one of the calendars?, and another.

Couldn't help laugh out loud at the chick handling. I was shocked! At the same time it further increases my respect for this man. I wonder if Lovecraft also would have handled that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21 Nov 08 | 06:43PM by Knygatin.

People lived closer to Nature back then, and Clark probably grew up seeing wringing of chickens necks before he could walk. Today we are all separated from Nature, eating what's on the plate, but not knowing where it came from.

America was fundamentally an agrarian society until WWII, At the beginning of which, Poland had a larger military than we did. I am 70 and lived in North Carolina - small town of about 600 - it still is - the nearest town, the county seat had about 20,000 at that time and the Capitol, Raleigh about 50 miles away had a population under 100,000.
Every one raised a garden and had chickens, and someone in the family raised hogs - every fall, the families gathered to butcher the hogs, make barbecue and the fabulous sausage (yes, we washed and used the intestines for the sausage - the saying is that the only -part of the pig you can't eat is the "oink") - the biggest shock in my young life was moving to Auburn where most people ate in the back yard and went to the restroom in the House! Clark's family when he was quite young kept a steer and/or pig - gardening was tough because when the rain failed his Mom had to bring water from the well bucket by bucket and ration the water rather than actually irrigating - Cole crops were a major part of any garden - cabbage, turnips, onions, collards (especially)- the tuber also - anything that could be stored by hanging it from strings hung between the beams under the house - then we children could crawl under and get them when granny wanted something for dinner - the greens would keep in the garden almost all winter - in fact collards and mustard greens are best after a frost - Clark's mother was a southerner and learned these skills as did Clark - the photo you see from time to time on this site of Clark with his cigarette holder and a dramatic chest pose next to a fence with his carvings on it was taken by myself in the small fenced in yard behind the house at pacific grove.
What you cannot see is the tiny planter boxes with several of the above mentioned plants growing in box planters and pots on the ground and shelving below and around - the Smith's knew little to nothings of commercially canned food - and later in life after marriage to Carol, discount and damaged goods stores where more could be purchased for less was the "necesitas" for life - Clark did not bake bread after his mother died, but only because much of it would have gone stale before he had eaten it - but he knew how.

"the Smith's knew little to nothings of commercially canned food"

However easier canned food may have made life, I'd say it's a good thing overall that they did not. I am no doctor, but I have little doubt that Lovecraft's short life was in large measure due to his wretched "canned food diet".

Of course, CAS did not live so long as he should have, either, but he seems to have had a hereditary tendency toward hypertension, which obviously was not treated very intelligently in his day, and which in turn leads later to strokes.

Anyway, these vignettes are fascinating. My father, who is about ten years Calonlan's senior, had a similar upbringing to CAS's during parts of the Depression. He still has vivid and unpleasant memories of fattening captured opossums for later butchering by feeding them sweet potatoes!

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "the Smith's knew little to nothings of
> commercially canned food"
>
> However easier canned food may have made life, I'd
> say it's a good thing overall that they did not. I
> am no doctor, but I have little doubt that
> Lovecraft's short life was in large measure due to
> his wretched "canned food diet".

On p. 628 of H. P. Lovecraft: A Life, Joshi notes:

"Interestingly enough, in view of the amount of canned food Lovecraft ate, studies have shown that modern food additives and preservatives may actually inhibit intestinal cancer. It is not that the preservatives in the canned food Lovecraft ate caused his cancer, but that their possible absence may have done so."

Yrs
Martin

See my response to this in the "Did Robert E Howard's death cause Smith to stop writing?" thread.

My grandmother refused to prepare oppossum because it's hands looked like a baby's hands to her - nevertheless, we often bought "rabbit" from the man who delivered coal, which dressed looked like rabbit, but was discovered as often to be cat. Ah the post-depression era!
As to "canned" food, that which has been referenced so far has to mean commercially "canned" food in metal (so called "tin") cans -- Clark's mother was an adept at "canning" in glass jars, as were most housewives after the advent of the glass jar and canning lid emerged - during the early years of my marriage, my wife and I had an extensive domestic garden and at one point had over 400 jars of "canned" goods in a storage room - green peas, peas, cherries, apple sauce, peaches, apple butter, pears, berrie
of various sorts and whole berries, juices - we made our own cider and Apple vinegar -
We also bottled our own beer (dark), made wine from everything (rose petals, rice, rose hips, cranberries -- we made our own pickles, slack lime sweets (what wouldn't I give for some of those now), and dill (old family recipes all) - we raised and butchered our own beef (jersey steer) and pork. Had a freezer full of our own fryers (did 100 in one day once, yuck) - had egg producing hens and ducks -
stored squash, potatoes, and yams, turnips, and onions -- you may be assured, Clark's Mom did very much the same, except for the meat in the freezer and butchering the larger animals - In addition, Auburn's climate was very agreeable for olives, and at the time I lived there they were produced commercially.
There was an olive tree, peach tree, and a couple of plum and pear varieties growing on the Smith 40 acres - and a limitless supply of blackberries. Canning in jars only requires a large pot, heat source, water, and tongs - plus a modicum of sugar and salt for most things - I might add that Clark loved pickled (german style) cabbage - and, though I don't think his mom made them, he liked the pickled watermelon rind my mom made - Clark gave my mother one of his carvings - small head Carol called "Dolup" - she gave it to my brother who, dear mercenary that he is, got a ridiculous price for it on ebay. (my brother hated picking blackberries - definitely an urban type).
'

Hmm, interesting perspective, regarding opossums. I never thought of that, as my experience with them has been limited primarily to chasing them from the back porch when they tried at night to eat the cat's food, or separating them from the family dog when she was on the prowl. My father did not like eating opossums because they were greasy! He also recalls during that time having endured meals of brains and eggs, and of--ugh!--"ram fries". As you say, the joys of Depression-era living in the South!

I recall picking dewberries with my grandmother when I was a boy in rural Texas. Even though I live in Queens, NY, now, I am fortunate to live in the upper floor of a house where my landlords keep an organic garden in the yard with tomatoes and green beans, as well as an herb garden. There is a persimmon tree in the front yard, and a fruitful pear tree outside my kitchen window. Nearby is also the Queens Farm Museum, New York City's oldest working farm; visiting there, one would not think that one was in a city, at all. Hardly akin to Auburn, of course, or to any other rural area, but it has its charm.

The oppossum is truly greasy, as is the raccoon - however, brains and eggs properly prepared is marvelous - there was one restaurant that prepared in so. Texas when I moved here, now, due to the queasiness of the cooks, that delectable dish is no more - and Pork brains are superior to cslf brains -the secret is to cook them thouroughly in bacon grease (light) -- the result is very much like the sausage one fines in authentic mexican omelettes - garnished of course with a Mom and Pop salsa -- as to "mountain oysters", in Eastern Oregon ranchland they are a common bar nosh - and dipped in hot mustard quite wonderful - more crunchy and delicate than chicken nuggets which they resemble in shape -
and of course really really cold beer.
The garden sounds great, and your proximity to organic yummies is a true grace - my daughter and son-in-law when living in the City, kept a little window box on the 6th floor of some converted defunct Hotel which happily had a sunward window; they fled to Texas at the first opportunity since the neighborhood they could afford on a teacher's salary was unsafe to go outside at anytime during the day for a young woman and baby, and my daughter was near to losing it entirely having been raised as an outdoor person in the high forests of Oregon, and a horsewoman to boot. The only good thing she got out of NY was her
husband (sang Judas for me in a production of "SuperStar" I directed 4 years ago) -

While we're reminiscing, here's an easy way to replicate (sort of) an integral part of "the CAS experience": Dark Sky Star-Gazing.

A bowl of picked blackberries, with a thin sprinkling of sugar, and cream (half-and-half). Life just doesn't get any better than that! Food of the Gods.

Another exciting variation I tried, was a zabaione made of yolks, brown sugar, madeira, scratched lemon peel, lemon juice, a bit of fine grained ginger; all whipped over sparse heat until thick. Blackberries put flat in ovensafe bowls, the zabaione poured over; grilled in the oven until light brown.

I bet the Smith garden (Garden of Adompha) also had cucumbers in the wet season, growing like limbs out of the earth. To feed a family with vegetables all year requires quite a big patch. These days people do homegrown for the fun of it, and to link with past and genuine roots. But it's usually not an economical solution for most. I sometimes bake bread, but it sure takes up time. On the other hand it's better bread than from the supermarket.

I don't quite understand the wringing of chickens heads. It seems like unnecessary cruelty. I asked my mother, whose foster parents had household farming during the WW2. Her mother had no problem with slaughtering chickens, and whenever she needed it for dinner, she went to the barn and chopped off the head of a couple of chickens. But my mother remembers no wringing.

Were Clark's fish soup and meat stew recipes (available somewhere on this site) standard in his cooking? Typical dinner? I have tried the fish soup, and it was very rustic and good. Or did Carol do the cooking after they married?

Carol prepared most meals - although you can see from one of my photos in "Sword...", black bread, a strong cheese, a cheap burgundy wine, "and thou beside me singing in the wilderness..." down on the beach was a favorite thing in Pacific Grove - there used to be a recipe for "slack lime sweet pickles" on the sack of slack lime; don't know if it's there any more since we haven't made our own picles for years, though we have relatives in NC that send us care packages periodically (stone ground corn meal, real hot dogs (red), Nahunta pork sausage, -- I thank God I didn't live my whole life in NC< I would easily weigh 400 lbs - the winter garden is most important - includes squashes (various), and the "cole" crops -- which are best after a frost --
btw - the electric bread making machines available today make the process much less time consuming - and the grandkids love to help and watch the dough being turned - the flavor is the same, just missing the tactile part of the job. Mrs. Smith senior was a famous bread baker - some of her magazine customers would give her a sack of flour to make some for them occasionally.

You ate your stomach full on black bread and strong cheese, only, for dinner?

What're the ingredients in black bread? I have never eaten it (only dark brown). Rye and dark syrup? Maybe I could bake it myself.

Edit: I found black bread on Wikipedia. Same as straight rye bread.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 8 Dec 08 | 08:47AM by Knygatin.

calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you can see from one of my photos in "Sword...", black bread,
> a strong cheese, a cheap burgundy wine, "and thou
> beside me singing in the wilderness..." down on
> the beach was a favorite thing in Pacific Grove

I think that's fascinating. A time gone, that was more laid back and romantic. Today everything is so darned ambitious. I sometimes settle for similar simple dinner meals, but tend to get scolded for not eating right and getting all nutrients, so I am not completely at comfort with it.

I don't imagine that Clark spontaneously broke out in song with wine glass in hand?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 Dec 08 | 09:16AM by Knygatin.

We did not over-eat the black bread, cheese, and wine - the bread and cheese are merely a complement to the wine -- Russian Rye is fairly close, but one used to be able to buy (at co-ops) a wonderful bread called "Siberian Soldier's Bread" which was a heavy bread, the loaf dusted with yellow corn meal -
American white bread I discovered over the years, mixed and kneaded with water, is an excellent
and long lasting caulking for installing window glass - one old timer in the Georgetown area built his entire place with native stone, and wwII metal window frames with foot square framers. 4x4. and installed all the glass with stale white bread worked into a paste -
Commonly during the day time or evening, if we had a gallon of Loomis Burgundy (which I always brought with me to Pacific Grove - 69c a gallon in those days), Clark preferred it mixed half and half with water and a little ice (if any) and called it a wine cooler -
As to Clark breaking into song - the only time I recall Clark singing was, having achieved a "rosy glow", joining in on a bawdy chorus of "oh, my sister Lily...", or "The Winnipeg whore" -- both of which are well forgotten -- he also enjoyed my German rendition of the marching song of the Potsdam Grenadiers -- in German, but I translated of course -- it is bawdy and vulgar at the level of 8th grade humor - very Germanic - However, I know that he had sung, and the recordings Don and I made (soon to out I hope) I rendered some of the songs as best as I could remember - at least the style - largely old english ballad style, or "madrigalesque" -

Calonlan -- Thank you for the anecdote about Clark's singing. I had no idea that he enjoyed music so much! Do you by any chance know whether he enjoyed any other particular songs, hymns, or perchance even Celtic music?

"The Winnipeg whore" is a nice tune. But we better leave the lyrics out of this forum!

Also, since I can't seem to edit my previous message, I'll add one more question: did the version of "The Winnipeg Whore" that the two of you sang follow the tune of "Reuben, Reuben" or was it another?

The Tune was indeed "Reuben, Reuben" and I am shocked that you knew that!! Horrors LOL - I do not know of Clark's appreciation by way of participation, but I was at that point in 6th year of vocal studies with famous Oratorio base, and Conductor of the Sacramento Bach Society, Frank Pursell - I had already sung with the Carmel Bach Society founded by Ernst Bacon, and with the NYCity Opera, and the SF Opera - and, of course,had acquired a fairly large repertoire of Old English ballads, and well known art songs from the French, German, Italian, and Russian composers in additon to American songs,and Negro Spirituals (I did a master Class in '60 with Marian Anderson) - and enjoyed singing some of these for Clark -- he loved the three b's, especially Brahms, I had a surreptitiously done reel - reel copy of Mahler's 6th, and we absolutely wallowed in the glory of the 2 chorus, 2 orchestra, 2 sets of soloists, and children's chorus production secretyly recorded during rehearsal in Berlin - Poet friend Harold Holden (From Athing et al) had snuck in during the reheasel in 1956 and made the recording on an old Wollensak portable (I still have it, and intend to load it on a CD someday I hope) - Clark like big sounds, though he appreciated the orgasmic stuff Chopin wrote for George Sand on Majorca (Carol liked that too) - he was not into popular music, and the only radio he had in his life was after moving to Pacific Grove - never turned on during any time I was there. As to hymns I cannot say beyond a discussion of Gandhi once where I pointed out that saint's favorite hymn (and sang it), "Lead, kindly Light" -he liked this very much - the words allow a generic spirituality, though it is very popular in the Christian context, -- not sung much anymore - hymn singing has generally degenerated into lots of "happy Clappy" choruses accompanied by Guitar, as opposed to majestic, grand monuments of great depth of sound and meaning requiring an Organ with at least a 32' low C.

Calonlan:

Quote:

he [CAS] was not into popular music [...]

It's interesting how poets' taste in music varies. William Blake was just the opposite, as he liked only the popular music of his day, and had no ear for, or interest in, Classical music, at all. (Blake also is supposed to have set his "Songs of Innocence and of Experience" to simple tunes of his own devising that he would sing, on occasion).

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Calonlan:
>
> he was not into popular music [...]
>
> It's interesting how poets' taste in music varies.
> William Blake was just the opposite, as he liked
> only the popular music of his day, and had no ear
> for, or interest in, Classical music, at all.
> (Blake also is supposed to have set his "Songs of
> Innocence and of Experience" to simple tunes of
> his own devising that he would sing, on occasion).

True enough -- but then, the popular music during Blake's time was perhaps much to be preferred to that of the 20th century! Does anyone have any sheet music for any of the tunes that Blake composed?

Also, thanks, Calonlan, for the information on Clark's musical tastes! Out of curiosity, what sort of singing voice did he have?

According to Alfred Kazin, others did transcribe some of Blake's tunes, but, like Kazin, I have no idea who did, or where they are, sad to say.

Clark's voice was low baritone -- we never did any singing other than what sprung up spontaneously so I cannot say whether he learned to read music or not - he sang in pitch with whatever I started, but as to whether he could duplicate a note played on the piano, I cannot say, but it is likely since group singing in grade school was "de riguer" in public schools (particularly in the early grades) until quite recently - and, of course, the songs of Stephen Foster, and other American composers, plus the enormously popular music of the Civil War - California in Clark's youth was filled with veterans from both sides - and whether Johnny comes marching Home, Dixie, John Brown's Body or Hang Abe Lincoln (same tune) the fellows from both sides commonly whooped it up together. I just now recall that on one occasion I was sharing having seen Elvis Presley in "Love Me Tender" and having been glared at by the weeping teenage girls as he died on screen since I was falling out of my seat laughing at the appalling acting, and shared later with Clark the title song, which is the tune of the Civil War ballad Aura Lee, which I then sang for them by way of proof, and Clark and Carol both joined on the chorus -Aura Lee, Aura Lee, Maid of golden hair; sunshine came along with thee, and robins in the air -- and Clark choked up a bit, remembering singing that song (which he had not thought of) from many years before.

>black bread,
> a strong cheese, a cheap burgundy wine, "and thou
> beside me singing in the wilderness..." down on
> the beach was a favorite thing in Pacific Grove

Reminds me of E. Hoffman Price’s memoir of his last visit to Auburn, CA (although not his last visit to CAS himself) in 1940, accompanied by sf-writers Edmond Hamilton, Jack Williamson, and pulp author Diego del Monte/aka Felix Flammonde:

“Outwardly, nothing could have been more matter of fact. To spare our host a shopping trip, we’d brought cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew, and wine, and rum, and brandy. Clark had been well-digging. His comrade in that un-artistic but useful business was a Turk from Turkestan, who briefed me on his native land…” (Book of the Dead, p.104)

Beef stew and wine… sheer heaven- with a little bread and butter, of course.

Indeed, indeed Gavin - and Dinty Moore, when it first came out was more beef than stew - and heated up on Clark's old wood stove would have had just the right amount of time to heat smmothly for the best flavor, and sending a nice aroma through the cabin (as opposed to microwave) - Do you remember the radio show that featured "Dinty Moore's" as
THE place for the Irish to get a cold beer and some great stew?

small break of time, as my query piqued my own curiosity, and my memory failed - however, eureka! (as Archimedes said), I have remembered it! 'twas not a radio show, but the Jiggs and Maggie cartoon strip. Jiggs was a caricature of a little Irishman always in evening dress and top hat, with a domineering taller wife - Dinty Mooore's was his refuge Tavern to escape from his wife - was in the papers when I was a child (along with the immensely popular and long running "Katzenjammer Kids" (which was commonly mispronounced with a hard "j" in my little North Carolina side pocket.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Jan 09 | 05:24PM by calonlan.

calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have remembered it! 'twas
> not a radio show, but the Jiggs and Maggie cartoon
> strip. Jiggs was a caricature of a little
> Irishman always in evening dress and top hat, with
> a domineering taller wife - Dinty Mooore's was his
> refuge Tavern to escape from his wife - was in the
> papers when I was a child (along with the
> immensely popular and long running "Katzenjammer
> Kids" (which was commonly mispronounced with a
> hard "j" in my little North Carolina side pocket.

It’s such a strange coincidence- a correspondent of mine just sent me a huge pile of clippings from some late-sixties issues of “Good Old Days” magazine; I’ve been reading through them during spare moments (my whole life is a spare moment.)

Anyhow, after you mentioned the “Dinty Moore” comic, I went back through the clippings, and sure enough, if found it: it’s “Bringing Up Father” by George McManus. The rich father in the strip is constantly leaving his mansion to play poker at “Dinty Moore’s place”.

The “Good Old Days” clippings are very much as you describe U.S. life back then: candles made from burning an old rag in a bowl of animal fat, corncob pipes, people drinking kerosene as a medicine (the guy who did this lived to be 90!)

It is so relaxing sitting hear and reading all of these memories of CAS. Geniuses like his come only so often and I know many people are jealous (in a good way) of Dr. Farmer. I know I am. Guess I will take this time to ask Dr. Farmer a few questions about CAS.

1. How did CAS's voice sound? High or low???

2. I am at the age (25) where my parents are getting older and death, sadly, has crossed my mind a few times during the night time hours. Did Smith ever talk about his parents and that he missed them. Any emotional attachments that he just couldn't part with? I know he must have felt tremendous amounts of sadness and despair at the deaths of H.P.L and Robert E. Howard.

3. How did he deal with solitude. It must have gotten lonely up in CA. Did his imagination help him. I am finding that as time progresses my imagination has become my best friend and writing, like learning, is great and that you pick up something new everyday.

4. Did Clark ever have writers block or moments when he didn't know how to express something in a story? I know I am and since I'm young I don't know how to deal with it in a mentally calm fashion. Procrastination ever a problem with him.

5. How did he feel about the death of R.H. Barlow and did he find out the truth that Barlow was only trying to help H.P.L; not ransacking his estate like a group of common thieves.

6. Lastly, how did he deal with life's everyday hassles and fears and, Did he ever have moments when he didn't want to write for only himself and miss the true defintion of what it is to be an artist.

Thanks. Hope these were not to many questions. I look up to the old masters as heroes. Guess I'm like a young Sterling or Barlow, lol. Too bad I cannot find someone in todays world to look up to. Its odd, like all the others I feel as though I should of been born in another time.

Any way hope you get this Dr. Farmer and my writing is coming and improving everyday. The evening song poem is redone for mistakes and finished. Would love to show it to you if you have the time or interest.

Take Care,

Charles

OConnor,CD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is so relaxing sitting hear and reading all of
> these memories of CAS. Geniuses like his come only
> so often and I know many people are jealous (in a
> good way) of Dr. Farmer. I know I am. Guess I will
> take this time to ask Dr. Farmer a few questions
> about CAS.
>
> 1. How did CAS's voice sound? High or low???
>
> 2. I am at the age (25) where my parents are
> getting older and death, sadly, has crossed my
> mind a few times during the night time hours. Did
> Smith ever talk about his parents and that he
> missed them. Any emotional attachments that he
> just couldn't part with? I know he must have felt
> tremendous amounts of sadness and despair at the
> deaths of H.P.L and Robert E. Howard.
>
> 3. How did he deal with solitude. It must have
> gotten lonely up in CA. Did his imagination help
> him. I am finding that as time progresses my
> imagination has become my best friend and writing,
> like learning, is great and that you pick up
> something new everyday.
>
> 4. Did Clark ever have writers block or moments
> when he didn't know how to express something in a
> story? I know I am and since I'm young I don't
> know how to deal with it in a mentally calm
> fashion. Procrastination ever a problem with him.
>
> 5. How did he feel about the death of R.H. Barlow
> and did he find out the truth that Barlow was only
> trying to help H.P.L; not ransacking his estate
> like a group of common thieves.
>
> 6. Lastly, how did he deal with life's everyday
> hassles and fears and, Did he ever have moments
> when he didn't want to write for only himself and
> miss the true defintion of what it is to be an
> artist.
>
> Thanks. Hope these were not to many questions. I
> look up to the old masters as heroes. Guess I'm
> like a young Sterling or Barlow, lol. Too bad I
> cannot find someone in todays world to look up to.
> Its odd, like all the others I feel as though I
> should of been born in another time.
>
> Any way hope you get this Dr. Farmer and my
> writing is coming and improving everyday. The
> evening song poem is redone for mistakes and
> finished. Would love to show it to you if you have
> the time or interest.
>
> Take Care,
>
> Charles


Of course, I would be happy to see your work - even better to hear it.
I can help you with some of your queries:

Clark's speaking voice was a rich, resonant, baritone (think "Thomas Hampson) -
2. At 25 I too felt the first gnawing of the "worm beneath the nail, wearing the quick away" - my god, a quarter century -- Clark rarely spoke of his past sorrows, but had about him a kind of eternal melancholy that was the stage upon which he lived his drama of life - (another poet friend of mine wrote of the "everlasting broken-heart of Louis Armstrong - there is some of that to it) - but he delighted in company where there was good conversation et al;
the groupie, or the merely talkative bored him quickly - he hated being socially trapped where he could not end or get rid of the imposition of persons he did not wish to be with. That is one reason he had a single bar that was his favorite - with lifelong friends, and a place where he was "part of the furniture" - the only conversation with Clark regarding his Father was in describing building a cabin, or digging a well - though he occasionally referenced both parents as well read and great story tellers - his father's wide travels made him very interesting to young Clark - probably most telling is his use of family names in the nom de plume he used briefly - "Timeus Gaylod"--
The Gaylord was his mother's maiden name, and old Southern Aristocracy ( a name so commonly asscociated with that era that it was used as the "hero's" first name in the musical "Showboat") -- His father's first name is from the most enigmatic and philosophically strange (by comparison with his other works) of Plato's dialogues - the "Timeus" is where the discussion of "Atlantis" occurs. = Clark pronounced it with a short "i", accented on the first syllable, which he told me is how his dad said it - classical Greek scholars tend to pronounce it with a long "i" with the accent on the second syllable (penultimate).
The only time he mentioned HPL was in insisting that he did not believe he had committed suicide. We never discussed REH.
3. By the time I knew Clark, he had been long inured to solitude, and throughout his life he had to ability to conjure up scenarios in which he mentally engaged sorcerors, villains, defended the fabled beauty etc. The majority of the time I spent with him was after his marriage - both he and Carol treasured their time alone - she sought solitude in sun bathing on the back patio - Clark would read, or rummage through old files (which is how I ended up with the great stack of holographs which are now at Berkeley and published as "Sword of Zagan". I never spoke with him about Barlow, though I suspect that had there been some matter or pique in his attitude, I would have heard it.
4 - Everyday life oddly enough while in the cabin did not hassle Clark - he had his routine: carve, write, read, pick berrys, prune, pick fruit in season, cut firewood, walk to old town, go to the Happy Hour, pick up some meager groceries and a bottle of Loomis Burgundy, stride home, sometimes stop at the top of High St and Folsom blvd. to visit with Ethel Heiple (who had assumed his mother's subscriber list years before), == he was not out after dark in the town ever that I can remember - he kept up with the weekly Auburn Journal paper, and occasionally bought the Sacramento Bee (or took the one at the Happy Hour home) - where they served (after reading) as insulation in the cool room above the well, or found their true value in the outhouse.
Do not despair of finding fine writers in today's world - or be one yourself for the next generation - master the craft - Even as i told Don Fryer almost fifty years ago about Edmund Spenser, I suggest him to you - master craftsmen in any genre deserve to be studied - You might be benefited by a romp through George Bernard Shaws's "Don Juan in Hell" - or Goethe's "Faust" - worth learning German just to read this masterpiece.
One more thing of note about day to day living - Clark had a very small "carbon footprint" as the yahoos call it these days - his life style generated almost no garbage - and his family PO box in old town was where all his mail came - and because of the outhouse, he appreciated the sale catalogs - he never had delivery to his home while in Auburn - and was overwhelmed in those days with the amount of crap that came unsolicited through the mail. - How he dealt with urban life I mentioned in my memoir in "sword" - so go buy it (I get $1.50) - I have to get up from this computer now, but I will be happy to try again for you in the future.

Smith's recorded voice can, of course, be heard in audio files, available on this site, of him reading some of his own poems.

Dr. Farmer provides more colorful details from Clark's life. I enjoy it very much. This thread is almost turning into a publishable biography!
(I know I was ironic in another thread about writing biographies, and making career out of being critic and analyzer of others. But for me there is a fine line, I sense immediately when there is disrespect and lack of integrity, when initial enthusiasm has turned into routine, and a famous star is utilized merely as an object and merchandize for the biographer to cash in on. Farmer writes out of love, as if to a friend still being present. Well, almost; Some, like me, may think that Clark would have smacked him on the fingers, or told him to close the camera lens, for minor details, like activities in the outhouse. But knowing now, how thoroughly a practical man Clark was, I am likely wrong. It is certainly not disrespectful, in any case. Some carnal embarrassments loose all meaning beyond the grave. While other more important issues may painfully remain.)

Although I prefer reading poems at my own pace, it is fascinating listening to Clark's readings of his own verse. It cannot be compared to the phenomenal Brother Theodore's reading of Smith, but then Clark was not an actor. (This is also why I asked if Clark spontaneously broke out in song, wondering how extrovert he was; or if his creativity stayed quietly on the inside). But you sense a tremendous force, and passion in his voice. And the sad undertone. And humour. Clearly a man of authority.



calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
-- Clark rarely spoke of
> his past sorrows, but had about him a kind of
> eternal melancholy that was the stage upon which
> he lived his drama of life -

This can be the case with an only child. I have known a few (also born under Capricorn). Being the only child, often leads to intense, if not lifelong search to compensate for the sense of loneliness, in one manner or another.
And to further increase this, the Smith family lived pretty isolated.


When reading a story like The Dark Eidolon, I have often wondered where this ability to express such incredible aggression and grim revenge stems from in Clark. It's so obsessive. I wonder if someone hurt him really bad. Or looking at his early school photo, there are one or two potential bullies, that I imagine could have forced him to crawl in the dust between lessons.

Dr. Farmer,

Thank you very much for answering my questions. I am currently writing up a dream narrative of a dark dream I had a few nights ago. Hope to share it with you and the board soon.

The only child syndrome seems significant enough. I mean CAS, no matter how god like he seems on paper, we must remember that he was a flesh and blood person capable of feeling and shattering like the rest of us. His loneliness must have been very tough to deal with. I would know because my brother recently passed away in a tragic car accident and I am faced with, for the first time ever, being an only child and dealing with friends moving on and approaching solitude. Makes for good art when one masters a craft but once the pen and paper is set down the individual must deal with it hands on as a part of living.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When reading a story like The Dark Eidolon, I have
> often wondered where this ability to express such
> incredible aggression and grim revenge stems from
> in Clark. It's so obsessive. I wonder if someone
> hurt him really bad.

But the story is not an expression of obsession and desire for revenge on the author's part. It is a satire about obsession and desire for revenge. The joke is that the sorcerer suffers a minor slight as a child and exacts a revenge unimaginably out of proportion---entire empires must be crushed underfoot to satisfy him. Naturally Smith enjoys playing around with the idea of having the power to really do your enemies some harm, but the story is not an empowerment fantasy; it is, in the end, about the futility of revenge. In short: The story is meant to be amusing.

Jojo Lapin X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
In short: The story is meant to be
> amusing.

Perhaps it is an expression of different, conflicting emotions? Strong passion, which at the same time is balanced by an awareness of "the futility of revenge". I don't see Smith as merely a detached entertainer. As I commented about his voice, he seemed more complex in his composition. And you can't separate a man's personality from his work, it's one and the same. If he sensed none of those passions himself, then they would be meaningless, or not very interesting, for him to write about.

A raise a glass (though not of Atlantean vintage, nor imbued with more than common wizardry) to the memory of Clark Ashton Smith on this, his birthday. :)

Excellent regards to you on your toast! My own choice was a very nice Madeira, produced by Haak vinyards in Santa Fe, Texas - (the only coastal winery we have, though there are many in a 100 mile circumference of San Antonio and a scattering in the far North (from where I live, Dallas is so far away they are almost Yankees - ugh). Clark was fond of Madeira - these days very hard to find. Interestingly, he was always touched by birthday remembrances, and a bit wistful about such things.

Warm regards to you, Dr Farmer, and to Mr. Deuce as well. I'll knock back a shot of Demerara rum for my own toast to the Bard of Auburn. Not, unfortunately, the difficult to obtain 151 variety as mentioned by E. Hoffmann Price in his fine memoir included in "Tales of Science and Sorcery" but still a fine aged rum from the Demerara region of Guyana.
May the spirit of Klarkash-Ton continue to inspire ever more people with his unique wisdom, incredible imagination, and inspired literary genius!
Cheers!

Club Cosmos -- the oldest SF association in Göteborg, Sweden -- raised a toast to CAS at their monthly pub meeting which is always on the second Tuesday of the month. And I believe that the SF fans of Uppsala toasted him at their pub meeting too.

Hear!Hear! to the Sweded, and Ron - truly Demerara is "rara" - Price's memoir was a true treasure - whatever anyone brought that was potable, was appreciated - I never heard Clark complain that a visitor brought a trash wine - and for the wine making officionados, the Loomis Burgundy which he always had about was excellent - and that simply because it is almost impossible to screw up and make a bad batch - Burgundy comes in three forms - Very Good, Excellent, and - "if this is not in heaven, I'm not going!"

I am off topic as usual... But today I have made a cake out of old Averoigne! A delicious Tarte Frangipane Aux Cerises! Our garden morels, put on a pate sucre'e (pastry crust), covered by a filler made of butter, sugar, eggs, flour, ground almonds, and rum. Into the oven. And then glazed with red currant gel, and sugar icing. Served with thick cream. The sharp taste of the morels is exquisitely contrasted by the sweet almond filling. I am sure CAS would have been fascinated.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Farmer provides more colorful details from
> Clark's life. I enjoy it very much. This thread is
> almost turning into a publishable biography!
> (I know I was ironic in another thread about
> writing biographies, and making career out of
> being critic and analyzer of others. But for me
> there is a fine line, I sense immediately when
> there is disrespect and lack of integrity, when
> initial enthusiasm has turned into routine, and a
> famous star is utilized merely as an object and
> merchandize for the biographer to cash in on.
> Farmer writes out of love, as if to a friend still
> being present. Well, almost; Some, like me, may
> think that Clark would have smacked him on the
> fingers, or told him to close the camera lens, for
> minor details, like activities in the outhouse.
> But knowing now, how thoroughly a practical man
> Clark was, I am likely wrong. It is certainly not
> disrespectful, in any case. Some carnal
> embarrassments loose all meaning beyond the grave.
> While other more important issues may painfully
> remain.)
>
> Although I prefer reading poems at my own pace, it
> is fascinating listening to Clark's readings of
> his own verse. It cannot be compared to the
> phenomenal Brother Theodore's reading of Smith,
> but then Clark was not an actor. (This is also why
> I asked if Clark spontaneously broke out in song,
> wondering how extrovert he was; or if his
> creativity stayed quietly on the inside). But you
> sense a tremendous force, and passion in his
> voice. And the sad undertone. And humour. Clearly
> a man of authority.
>
>
>
> calonlan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> -- Clark rarely spoke of
> > his past sorrows, but had about him a kind of
> > eternal melancholy that was the stage upon
> which
> > he lived his drama of life -
>
> This can be the case with an only child. I have
> known a few (also born under Capricorn). Being the
> only child, often leads to intense, if not
> lifelong search to compensate for the sense of
> loneliness, in one manner or another.
> And to further increase this, the Smith family
> lived pretty isolated.
>
>
> When reading a story like The Dark Eidolon, I have
> often wondered where this ability to express such
> incredible aggression and grim revenge stems from
> in Clark. It's so obsessive. I wonder if someone
> hurt him really bad. Or looking at his early
> school photo, there are one or two potential
> bullies, that I imagine could have forced him to
> crawl in the dust between lessons.


Re the "bully's" in the photo: It is far more likely that the teacher/photographer placed them on either side of Clark to (A) keep him still, and (B) to part him from the girls. He was not troubled by the other boys, but was more of a ringleader in mischief in the beginning days of school - the knothole in the girl's outhouse wall, away from the school, and its surreptitious use (and the introduction to the other curious youth of its many delights) was accomplished by our young hero -- his leaving school was a factor of his having left the others so far behind -- they were still doing "See Dick Run..." when Clark was reading the "Song of Roland" in translation -- his mischievous nature at school -- and, his terrible coughing fits in the early morning when the wood stove in the school was first being fired up (a task that was the older boys' responsibility) -- For those who do not know about wood stoves or fireplaces, it is often necessary to light some newspaper and hold them inside the flue to heat the chimney (whether brick or metal) so that the air will draw out -- failure to do this will commonly end with the room full of smoke until the flue heats enough to begin to pull the air upward - the pot-bellied stove in the school was notorious for this problem since the metal door was not air-tight - schools could not affort the Franklin Stove which had either iron or glass doors and had a superior drafting system. Ah, the rustic life -
At Clark's cabin, the wood cook stove provided the heat for the whole place - its principal drawback was the need to keep it stoked, and it only held small pieces of wood no larger than 2 inches in diameter, whereas the pot belly could hold short but very thick pieces to bank the fire once it got going. Coal was not an option in rural California, which is too bad since it is a very superior stove fuel - I grew up with it.

Yes, looking at that school photo again, he does have mischievous grin. As if he's just sat down after a very successful raid of the cookie jar.

Interesting that he was so far head in school, and had such mature intellectual pursuits as "Song of Roland" at so early and playful an age.

Today I took a basket to the wood, and picked chanterelle mushrooms. Found about two liters. Even though you can make a stew, add cream and stuff, I like them best simply fried in butter, with a light sprinkling of salt and white-pepper. And put it on toasted white bread (or fried in a pan). Absolutely wonderful! I wonder what sort of edible mushrooms grow around the Auburn area and the Sierras.
We haven't used the wooden stove during the summer, but I decided to today, since it was a bit chilly outside. And I am quite ashamed to admit the the whole kitchen initially filled up with smoke, since I neglected the procedure calonlan describes above! Anyway, I believe food tastes better cooked on wooden stove than on electric. And the special heat it gives, also adds to a comfortable and pleasant dinner atmosphere. (About coal... we have a sack of briquets, pressed coal, but I don't find them very effective. They glow for a very long time, but don't give off much heat.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jul 09 | 04:55PM by Knygatin.

I sautee my chanterelles in olive oil, with garlic and peppers, and use the result to dress spaghetti. This dish is so delicious that I am tempted to have it every day. The only problem is that chanterelles, like mushrooms in general, are not really food, as they essentially consist only of water, with no protein, carbohydrates, or nutrients of any kind.

the live oak is the common firewood for Auburn, as well as fruitwood from the old orchards -- The phenomenon know as the "fairy ring" where spores from a central mushroom and create a wide circle (I have seen them 10 feet in diameter) are a common edible mushroom on the hills above the river - commonly occurring in early spring - there are a few other wild varieties - A well-banked fire with slightly damp (uncured) oak as the last piece to catch will result in the house staying comfortable, with a thin strip of wood still burning slightly in the morning, sufficient to stoke up and keep going for breakfast -
A properly laid fire in winter, should never go out -- Clark prided himself on his practical skills in primitive living.

I have never seen or heard of such mushroom "fairy rings" before. Quaint!
Have seen "fairy ring" paths, but they are formed in a wholly different way.

calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> -- Clark prided himself on his practical
> skills in primitive living.

Clark must have considered himself as very intelligent. Was he never embarrassed by his own inablility to use his intelligence to acquire more wealth and money? Reading his latter letters, it is very obvious that he suffered from his economical situation. I wonder that he should not have been more challenged, and driven to be shrewd in money-matters.

I am aware that my previous post may be seen as provocative towards CAS. And, I am sorry if some forum members find it offensive.
My intention is merely to try to stir up interesting thoughts and ideas of searching wisdom.

I cannot speak for anyone else, of course, but I doubt that anyone found your words to be offensive. As I've mentioned before, this is an odd forum, and one never knows which comments and subjects will catch fire, and which will languish.

That said, Scott Connors would be the best source of information I know on the subject.

For my part, I think the short answer is that, given CAS's aversion to formal education (which, although he painted his opposition to formal education in high-minded colors, also, to me, has something of the phobic about it), his opportunities to better himself economically were very limited. He also couldn't exactly improve his finances by sitting around his cabin and day-trade in stocks and bonds on the Internet, in those days. In addition, poetic and philosophical intelligence do not necessarily translate into acquisitive and financial intelligence. In fact, I'd say that the two are inversely correlated.

At any rate, however much CAS suffered, I dare say he knew he would have suffered more by forcing himself into the mold of the nine-to-five working life. He, like so many of us, found himself between Scylla and Charybdis in this regard.

That said, my understanding is that, relatively late in life, CAS tried to obtain regular employment at a railroad office, but was denied the job because of high blood pressure, the malady that quite likely led to his strokes and to his relatively early death.

In this connection, I also recall an anecdote about WIlliam Blake. When funds were running low while Blake pursued his visions, his wife Catherine would say, "The money's going, Mr. Blake", to which William would reply, "Damn the money! It's always the money!" Blake worked very hard as an engraver, but he also would refuse to compromise his vision to any great extent. Such a perspective is a formula for hardship, but it is also a formula for riches beyond the mundane--the "immarcesible pleasures of poetry", for instance.

Surely the reason why CAS never acquired a lot of wealth was because he spent most of his energies in producing poetry, prose and bad art, rather than the inane pursuit of money. And in this I think he should be praised. It is obvious from the gruelling menial work he had to do between cheques from the pulps that he wasn't work-shy. Also let us not forget that his prime of life coincided with the Depression, which must have limited his opportunities. I'm not saying that it isn't obvious from his letters that he desired the security of money, but he just popularities his art over simply acquiring wealth for the sake of it. Also, I'm sure, after his initial poetic fame, albeit limited fame, that he had high hopes that he would some day make his money from his writing. A fact obviously encouraged by George Sterling. Maybe CAS's early fame was ultimately harmful in enforcing unrealistic expectations upon him? Maybe not? But either way, it would be unkind to suggest that CAS is unintelligent or in any way a failure because he wasn't a millionaire by the time he's 30.

And why should the successful pursuit of wealth be any measure of intelligence anyway? Surely the quality of his poetry, prose and letters is proof enough of that. I'm not saying that he doesn't appear to have blind-spots in his intelligence (but don't we all): I can never square how a guy who prided himself on the purity, technique and artistic ability of his poetry, didn't want to extract the same standards from his visual art, which to my eyes is embarrassingly bad. Still I have to admire his stubbornness if nothing else.

This is a reply to several of the above messages re Clark and Money -
Just a reminder about "der Sitz im Leben" of turn-of-the-century America, and the West in particular - Clark grew up in the late Victorian era, and the mores of that time permeated the "civilized" world for many years - the sense of chivalry, courtesy, and the moral obligations of children towards their parents; and, while Clark's parents were atypical in their pursuits, his father was nevertheless a "gentleman", and his mom a "southern belle" to the end. Clark's very real devotion to them both, born of real Love and affection, and gratitude for their understanding of his precocity -- they could not give him material things, but gave him the greatest of gifts - freedom -- freedom to drop out of school and spend his days and weeks at the Carnegie library learning -- his mother sold magazines door to door, and was an ebullient, joyous person - and Clark saw that the growth of the town would encroach dangerously on her after his Dad's death.
As to money - Clark never could catch up with the changing value of "things" - selling the 40 acres for 800 dollars, from which contractor Harrison made millions, for example - the books he knew were not places to find advice for dealing with the avaricious and unscrupulous - He remained a "babe in the woods" about finances all his life, while nevertheless fretting with publishers about "penny a word" payments.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calonlan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > -- Clark prided himself on his practical
> > skills in primitive living.
>
> Clark must have considered himself as very
> intelligent. Was he never embarrassed by his own
> inablility to use his intelligence to acquire more
> wealth and money? Reading his latter letters, it
> is very obvious that he suffered from his
> economical situation. I wonder that he should not
> have been more challenged, and driven to be shrewd
> in money-matters.

Short answer: yes, he was very frustrated. Independence was CAS's key consideration; money was simply a means to that end, and he never wanted to become a wage slave. He was almost constitutionally adverse to working for anyone on an on-going basis, preferring to work at odd jobs, preferably outdoors and somewhere he wouldn't be around a lot of strangers, until he had saved enough money to live on for several months--and he could squeeze a quarter until the eagle turned blue. He would then use this time to write, paint or carve, and when he ran low on funds he would repeat the process. When he applied for the railroad job, it was more a case of wanting to contribute in some way to the war effort, or at least be seen having a vital war-related job. The work did take its toll on his health, contributing to the series of strokes that finally ended his life in 1961.

Scott

google "fairy rings" or "faerie rings" - they are (or were) abundant in the forests of Europe, the British Isles, and Placer County --

Quote:

The work did take its toll on his health, contributing to the series of strokes that finally ended his life in 1961.

The poem "Tired Gardner" says volumes about this, alas.

I am not a doctor, but to be as slender as CAS was and still to have high blood pressure strongly suggests endogenous factors at work, as well as exogenous ones, in the decline of his health. I doubt that he had regular physical examinations as often as he should have--understandable enough, too, given his circumstances. (I suspect that CAS was suspicious of all professionals, too).

Hi, Dr. Farmer


What was Clark Ashton Smiths views towards beauty and women in general. Reading some of his stories I believe he tried to uphold chivalry in a world that was changing. And because of his high intelligence I bet he would say real beauty is on the inside. I try to uphold chivalry but its hard because I've been having girl problems, lol. And GRRRRR, don't all us guys. "Can't live with 'em, can't live without em"

And having writers block, especially when you know what to say but don't have the words to say it, is hard and aggravating. Did CAS have that problem? And if so what did he do to solve it?

There are not clear and straight paths through Life. It's a complexity of ironies and grim contradictions. The ego's frustrated call for simple answers is never resolved. For every person it's an ongoing involuntary spasmic dance, between the inner sufficiencies and insufficiencies, and although grimly negative sounding, and although it can harbour pleasure and joy along the way, I won't hesitate to call it dance of death. Only deeper insights, opening up the mind to spiritual perspectives, or nonmaterial values, and to the intricate complexity of one's own abilities (which will make the dance appear less spasmic), will find peace of mind in this outer chaos.

Thank you Kyberean, English Assassin, Calonlan, and Scott Connors, for interesting posts on Clark's money problems. From very different perspectives. I found them enriching, and uplifting.

OConnor,CD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi, Dr. Farmer
>
> And having writers block, especially when you know
> what to say but don't have the words to say it, is
> hard and aggravating. Did CAS have that problem?
> And if so what did he do to solve it?

If I may insert a small comment before Dr. Farmer, I would say the clues to all artistic work is practice and patience. And the answer to not being able to find the right words, is to continue the ongoing process searching for knowledge and understanding, because therein are those words hidden.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The work did take its toll on his health,
> contributing to the series of strokes that finally
> ended his life in 1961.
>
> The poem "Tired Gardner" says volumes about this,
> alas.
>
> I am not a doctor, but to be as slender as CAS
> was and still to have high blood pressure strongly
> suggests endogenous factors at work, as well as
> exogenous ones, in the decline of his health. I
> doubt that he had regular physical examinations as
> often as he should have--understandable enough,
> too, given his circumstances. (I suspect that CAS
> was suspicious of all professionals, too).


If you read the chapter about Dr. Abrams in Miriam Allen DeFord's THEY WERE SAN FRANCICANS, and if you know that he saw CAS regarding his tb, you'd have an idea as to why he was suspicious of doctors. This wasn't all that uncommon back then; Lovecraft's suspicion of doctors (after all, his mother died of a botched gall bladder removal) contributed to his death. I don't think that Robert E. Howard was all that suspicious of physicians given his father, but enough people have brought up oedipal complexes over the years that even that isn't certain. (That was a joke, folks; I don't buy the Oedipus Complex without a rather large discount.)
Keep in mind that CAS's father also suffered from hypertension, and it's pretty clear that there was a hereditary element to his health. Also, the scarlet fever he experienced as a boy probably turned into rheumatic fever, which can result in damaged heart valves that can "throw clots". Between this and the blood pressure, it's a miracle he didn't die sooner.
I agree that "Tired Gardner" is a very revealing work. I think that it and "Town Lights" are among the most revealing glimpses we have of CAS's actual mental state.

Scott

Thanks for the interesting information, Scott.

I knew that CAS had a mild case of TB, or, at least, was suspected of having it. I also know that he endured--Satan help him--an adult case of whooping cough, but I did not know about the scarlet fever. I am no epidemiologist, but I am a bit surprised that such a variety of nasty infectious diseases circulated so frequently in small, sparsely populated rural areas such as Auburn. Perhaps CAS was merely unlucky.

In particular, suspecting that he suffered from TB must have been especially frightening to one who, no doubt, was familiar with the life of Keats. There are few more depressing accounts in English literary biography than that of Keats dying in a small room in Rome with agonizing deliberateness, spitting blood monotonously into a cup, and convinced that his name "was writ in water".

It's interesting that Timeus was hypertensive, as well. Given that he lived for around a generation more than his son, his constitution must have been better able to cope with that condition. Was Timeus a smoker? And when did CAS adopt the tobacco habit?

By the way, don't get me wrong, re. doctors: There's good reason to be suspicious of them even today!

> I've been having girl problems, lol. And
> GRRRRR,

Since Dr Farmer has delayed answer (unless by email), I will take the liberty of answering.

Here is my advice: Go into a rage!!! Destroy something! Kick an old stump! Punch a boxing bag. Do some hard manual work, dig a well, lift stones. That works for me. Whatever you do, for God's sake, don't take it out on the girl, or on the rivaling guy. Or even worse perhaps, don't hurt yourself, for feeling sorry for yourself and victimized, because the pain is all one big illusion.

What we need to learn is that romanticism (exploited to its maximum during the 1800s), and the sensation of belonging together exclusively with a specific person, is illusion. It's Nature's way of tricking the brain, to get two people together, for guaranteeing the continuation of the species. Aside from messing around when younger, and going into temporary noncomitted encounters, women have an inbuilt genetic mechanism for selecting (and falling in love with) the man who best can supply protection and secure upbringing for the coming children. It's simple biology. If you can't "deliver", then the woman will leave you (even if there is erotic attraction, and a harmonious stimulating affinity between your personalities). It's as simple as that. It's just something one has to accept. If there is a reasonably good economic situation, and both persons are well balanced and mature individuals, then the relationship/marriage may remain stable. Not otherwise.

I believe Clark was aware of this, and his poverty and inability to get a regular income, was partly the reason he didn't have children, or a longterm stable love relationship (his marriage to Carol is a different matter, because they were both older independent individuals, Carol already having had her children. They could relate in a wiser, friendly-based manner, of mature acceptance; they were not on the level of getting into the family-raising biology-circus of younger people.)

I am posting here far too frequently, I realize, but these are unusually interesting discussions, to me.

Quote:

romanticism (exploited to its maximum during the 1800s)

I respectfully disagree. It's impossible to prove or disprove, of course, but I think that individuals in the West after 1900 have displayed far more unrealistic expectations about romance than their immediate predecessors, the Romantic movement notwithstanding. (Of course, one might blame the Romantics for laying the foundation for this).

As for CAS and his perspective on women and romance: My view, based upon what I know of his life (relatively little), is that he was scarred emotionally by a tragic relationship that he had in his early years. Very little has been made public about this relationship, to my knowledge.

I also do not think that CAS's inability to be a "good provider" had anything to do with his failure to have children and to marry earlier than he did. In part because of a later coarsening of temperament based upon "Experience", in Blake's sense of that term (some call this "maturity"), and in part as a reaction to this past traumatic relationship, CAS developed a rakish and cynical view of romance in real life (as opposed to in poetry), and he specifically chose married women as partners precisely because there was no chance that the relationship would offer long-term entanglements. It's a little sad reading the letters to George Sterling in which the younger CAS seems to make pathetic attempts to impress Sterling by going the latter one better in rakishness. Even relatively late in life, this pattern of forming infatuations only with married women seemed to persist. Personal preference, or sour grapes? Who knows?

Of course, Scott Connors, and perhaps Calonlan, knows far more about this matter than most anyone here, myself included, so their comments and corrections would be pertinent and welcome.

On a personal level, I certainly agree that hormones make fools of us when we are young, albeit some of us more than others. The poet Shelley seems to have understood this (although he handled romance perhaps worst than most) when he wrote (paraphrased from memory), "I think one is always in love with some thing or other. The error consists in seeking in a mortal image the likeness of which is perhaps eternal". Although, being neither a Platonist nor a believer in some Idealistic "eternity", I would quibble with Shelley's language, I basically agree with the poet, and I would add that the energies that go into youthful romantic love would be far better channeled in other directions. If it weren't for the "need" (also grossly overstated) to reproduce, I would say that we should all have our first serious romantic relationship only after the age of forty!


P.S. For O'Connor's benefit, it might be worthwhile to quote CAS's advice on how to handle women from his letter to Donald Wandrei. On the other hand, it would no doubt raise the ire of the few (it seems) women who read and post here! Lol.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 14 Aug 09 | 04:01PM by Kyberean.

Quote:

Aside from messing around when younger, and going into temporary noncomitted encounters, women have an inbuilt genetic mechanism for selecting (and falling in love with) the man who best can supply protection and secure upbringing for the coming children. It's simple biology. If you can't "deliver", then the woman will leave you (even if there is erotic attraction, and a harmonious stimulating affinity between your personalities). It's as simple as that. It's just something one has to accept. If there is a reasonably good economic situation, and both persons are well balanced and mature individuals, then the relationship/marriage may remain stable. Not otherwise.

Forgive me for being off topic. While there are certainly multiple aspects of truth to this statement, some of it is just complete bull. No offense. There are plenty of women out there, at this point, who have no interest in children and have far more complex motivations than just selecting a "suitable" breeding partner!

NightHalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are plenty of women out there, at
> this point, who have no interest in children and
> have far more complex motivations than just
> selecting a "suitable" breeding partner!

"Far more complex motivations"? They like to nurture the illusion of being free and independent. "Freedom" is the exploited ideal today, just as "romanticism" was the ideal in the 1800s. But when it comes down to sex, it's all about biology, and even if part of the woman's consciousness has decided she does not want to have children, the selective behaviour is deepdown the same. Falling in love though, harbours a wide array of possible self-deceiving excuses, illusions for denying the solely biological drive. For who wants to be merely an animal, driven by instinct and without true free will?

I don't deny that women and men can be attracted to each other for other more spiritually elevated reasons, sharing interesting conversations and such, and seeing particular fascinating personality traits in the other they like. But this must be perceived as clearly separated and independent from the pure sexual attraction.


Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> romanticism (exploited to its maximum during the
> 1800s)
>
> I respectfully disagree. It's impossible to prove
> or disprove, of course, but I think that
> individuals in the West after 1900 have displayed
> far more unrealistic expectations about romance
> than their immediate predecessors, the Romantic
> movement notwithstanding. (Of course, one might
> blame the Romantics for laying the foundation for
> this).

With enough cultural research digging of those times, and unearthed documentary file statements, I guess it would be possible to prove.
Personally I believe the level of romantic expectations in individuals was the same in the 1800s as in the 1900s and now. The exploitation of romanticism among poets and in the superficial cultural ideals, of the 1800s, did not make a difference among real people. The sensation of love, expectation, illusionary idealization, disappointment and pain, is part of the biological setup, and has worked in the same way far back in time. It is also an individual thing; because some persons are very sensitive, and others are more thick-skinned practical down to earth and less susceptible to becoming heartbroken.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14 Aug 09 | 05:32PM by Knygatin.

Quote:

The sensation of love, expectation, illusionary idealization, disappointment and pain, is part of the biological setup

According to this article, while the passionate feelings underpinning romantic love do seem to be cross-cultural and universal, the effect of those feelings upon marriage and begetting offspring is far from universal:

Quote:

While finding that romantic love appears to be a human universal, Dr. Jankowiak allows that it is still an alien idea in many cultures that such infatuation has anything to do with the choice of a spouse. "What's new in many cultures is the idea that romantic love should be the reason to marry someone," said Dr. Jankowiak. "Some cultures see being in love as a state to be pitied. One tribe in the mountains of Iran ridicules people who marry for love."

So, the factors of idealization, disillusion, and emotional pain are not biologically decreed inevitabilities in romantic and sexual relationships, and especially not in those that lead to marriage and family.

In any case, my assertion is that the degree and forms that romantic love take vary considerably over history. For that reason, among others, I stand by my statement that Western peoples of the 20th Century and beyond are more naive in their expectations of love, romance, and marriage than their immediate 19th-Century, Romantic-era predecessors. Read Jane Austen, if you don't believe me.

I am not interested in arguing the point, though. I also suspect that we may be differing on the basis of mutual misunderstandings. So, instead, let's give O'Connor a hand, by sharing CAS's recipe for successful dealings with the opposite sex:

Quote:

The Study of Woman is certainly a fearful and wonderful branch of biologic science. However, it is only fair to say--and well to know--that women don't all fall under the same classification. As Lafcadio Hearn says somewhere, they differ amazingly and diabolically. Also--contrary to the common idea--they are often too damned easy to understand. [...] Most [women] are hard-boiled and practical at bottom, as few men, even the most commercial, ever are. Also, they are more prone to petty snobbery, and are swayed to an unbelievable degree by such details as the cut of a man's hair, the way in which he tips the waiter, or helps them out of a car. They are worshippers of success, who fling themselves in regimens and cohorts at the head of the recognized genius but scorn the one who has still to make his way through obloquy and hardship. [...] Avoid, above all things, either the complaining or the supplicative attitudes. [...] A woman's disfavor isn't necessarily final. To become personal, I've had my face slapped, and have been loved to death an hour afterward by the slapper. [...] Hate and love, disgust and desire, belong to the same spectrum and shade into each other through a thousand semitones."

--CAS, letter to Donald Wandrei, June 24, 1935



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 14 Aug 09 | 09:55PM by Kyberean.

Quote:

If you can't "deliver", then the woman will leave you (even if there is erotic attraction, and a harmonious stimulating affinity between your personalities). It's as simple as that. It's just something one has to accept. If there is a reasonably good economic situation, and both persons are well balanced and mature individuals, then the relationship/marriage may remain stable. Not otherwise.

There is no doubt that women, like men, have imbed biological needs; of course sex is about biology and yes of course there is an element of selection to it. Now, in the above post you are giving advice to O'Conner about "women trouble"; you say, above, that women are driven by an innate selective process. At this point I agree. Yes, that is certainly a large underlying factor in male and female relationships.

However, then there is the quoted statement above. If a man cannot "deliver", by which I take you to mean: protective, economically stable, and giving forth children, then he is out regardless of any "affinities between personalities."

Aren't there relationships out there where many, if not all of these factors are not given? What about, say, a disabled man who is impotent, cannot protect, or even provide for his wife? Do all the women just leave? Certainly not. What I am opposed to in the above is the negation of other factors like psychological or emotional needs. Maybe these things are assumed to be motivated by biology in your post, but culture does have an affect as well as one's parents, and one's hopes and dreams for life. Whether a woman stays with a man does not necessarily have to do with his "delivering" role but could break down to something as simple as him not sharing those "illusions" you spoke of.

In that vein, you mention that freedom and independence is an illusion. To a degree that is true. Yet, don't we make decisions based off these same illusions? Isn't that some measure of independence? And if a woman does decide, say, to overcome her urge for children, or if say, she becomes a lesbian, doesn't that also give her some measure of "freedom" from her own biology?

I just don't think there are absolutes as the above quote seems to imply and certainly, despite what they may be, these illusions you speak of do have a place and are as real as the next thing if they cause us, in any way, to have an effect on the world (if they make us banish someone from our lives which has a real effect on that person). But this leads us to what the philosophers have been fighting over for centuries...so I will stop here and abstain from any further comment on this topic so we can get back to CAS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14 Aug 09 | 07:33PM by NightHalo.

NightHalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will stop here
> and abstain from any further comment on this topic
> so we can get back to CAS.


You may abstain from further comment as much as you like to. Or as much as your free will and needs truly will allow. But you did place a number of questions, and I will make a short comment.

I meant that the absence of free will lies specifically in the sexual process. In other areas of life, humans may have the freedom of choice (depending on how far one wishes to stretch the philosophizing), of reaching out to explore, manipulate and transform surroundnings and oneself, and be creative. Also, relationships change as you grow older, more tolerance to weakness may come with age, changing preferences, as I mentioned in my previous post about Clark's late marriage.

You mention "freedom" of lesbians. Homosexuals have either an aberration in their genetic setup. Or are engraved psychologically from early age on, in a way that makes them feel comfortable with, or have a need to explore, homosexuality. There is no true free will in this.

Ok, end of this discussion.




I cannot limit myself from discussing side issues, that might contribute to general understanding in the longer run, by not being allowed to go off topic. From here on I'd be happy to color my texts blue (or otherwise) whenever they go off topic, so that those not interested can skip over it.

I just really read the more recent posts on this subject with considerable amusement - I have not seen the earlier post on Clark's "late marriage" -- However, for what it's worth, as one who spent a great deal of time with Clark and Carol in their tiny house at Pacific Grove, and in deep converse with Carol immediately after Clark's death, I can assure you that the sexual component of their relationship was prominent, and eagerly functional --
Carol, a quite loquacious lady not given to discretion or caution, made it clear that (had they been available in those days) neither "extenz" or "viagra" nor "Cialis" were required by our beloved Poet -- and she, herself, was a lusty and demanding bride with no cause to complain of neglect - neither did Clark seek solace in other realms, being wholly content in his "garden of delights."

Clark was obviously an impressive person in many ways!
But still, back to the essence in my argument, I don't think there was any motivation whatsoever (or risk) of this ending up with new babies.

Speaking entirely in the existential mode, one of the many delights of post-menopausal bliss is the absence of the concern that one might produce offspring - however welcome these creatures may be in one's youth, and however joyful it is to see them mature into responsible and highly educated individual's who no longer inhabit one's home, the freedom of the unihibited life is much to be commended, having paid one's dues,as it were.

I still maintain, that a book entitled, "Suggestons for God", might include a chapter on how to have one's grandchildren first.

calonlan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still maintain, that a book entitled,
> "Suggestons for God", might include a chapter on
> how to have one's grandchildren first.

Yes, if I would only free myself from my earthbound shackles for a time, I guess anything is possible!

Just an added note re the creative processes themselves:
All cultures have a creation mythology - first causes suffuses and ignites the minds of authors, artists et al.
For those of a theological bent, the "big bang" represents the quintessential Orgasm (see Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe for an amusing take on this) --
The male and female principals dominate the earliest attempts to explain the world - Isis and Osiris et al - even old Yahweh has wives whom he divorces in the book of Zacariah in an obscene passage. But, as Lewis points out in "Perelandra" the cosmic principles of "male" and "female" are infinitely beyond mere human coupling, rather, as above, suffuse creation. Suggested reading as to the origins of human attitudes toward Romantic love, suggested reading is Lewis' major scholarly work for the Cambridge History of the english language, "The Allegory of Love" (requires some knowledge of Latin, Greek, Italian, and Anglo-Saxon as there are no (in my copy at least) no footnotes.
Finally the latest tale being spread about the internet is that an Artist, an Engineer and a Politician were debating the nature of the mind behind the Universe: the artist insisted on the Artistic temperament because of the great beauty in the overall design; the engineer insisted on the mathematical perfection of the physics as the only way to bring order out of Chaos; but the Politician had to add, "Ah, but who created the chaos?"

Very interesting Dr. Farmer. The human race loves to believe the illusion that a "perfect mate" is out there for him or her. This is taught in society, religious institutions and felt deep down in the heart of the human animal. I to have felt this. So is it that the human race is headed toward some destructive "climax" or some head where we still see it fitting to harbor the make believe emotion that some good is waiting for us while on earth. Could it be that we are merely a cramp in a bigger role. To say that we are accidents is illogical because then we are saying that "Infinity" or "God" is prone to error or "Human" and we all know that it is mightier than we will ever be.

I see our universe as kept even. Think of a machine. Everything in that machine must be even for it to work right. So is the same for our race. People die, there is crime, good people, bad people, artistic people, good animals, bad animals, tragedy, goodness. By observation I see everything is even. Not one thing overrides the other. There is an even amount of good and bad. One age is more intelligent than the other and with that comes the appropriate amount of struggle. It increases with every age, both the good bad and indifferent. Think of a show; certain things good and bad must be reached for it to continue, getting higher and higher until the grand finale or explosion as I would say it. I think Shakespeare is correct when he says, "All the world is a stage and we are the players". Maybe the belief that some good is awaiting us on this earth provides people with that extra "Push" to continue. For like all shows, good or bad, it must go on until the end.

I sure hope everybody reading this understands the point of this post. Just feeling a bit philosophical today.

As to the "perfect" mate: I am quite sure from personal experience that such a phenomenon exists. How those two find each other (or do not) has a great deal to do with the culture that suffuses your early development. Arranged marriages in the past commonly worked out well (see "Fiddler on the Roof" - "Do you love me? - Do I what?") - I am myself an authentic fossil, having remained a virgin until I married at age 28 a woman aged 20 - we have just recently completed our 43rd year - the first time I ever saw her, I was leading a meeting, and she and some friends came into the back row, 4 lovely girls, but she had a kind of light around her, and, with no great pulsing and exploding of the heart, my mind simply said, that's the girl you will marry - and it was so. I do think it takes us fellows much longer to grow up than our female fellow travelers, and be really qualified to take our roles seriously as "high Priest" of the family - protector, provider, etc, and also to able to unabashedly acknowledge our need for comfort, and the nurture that is the "universal mother" that dwells within the breast of every practitioner of the "eternal feminine" - the ancients were wise to honor the great Triple Goddess, and we still do in her various morphologies - or, bluntly, the old phrase, "the two become one flesh" is, in my experience, a profound truth and a wholly desirable state of existence. In my wife's work as a Hospice RN, week after week we see these instances, where one partner simlply "joins" the other very shortly after the other dies - existence apart loses meaning.

Coming late to this....

Quote:

Everything in that machine must be even for it to work right. So is the same for our race.

There is no "our race," but there does seem to be an inherent weakness in the majority that reflects an addiction to the certainty of over-inclusive pronouns, such as "we" and "us". Chew on that proposition when you're in a mood to be really philosophical. ;-)

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no "our race,"

Really? There is no "human race," then? (I am not saying that "OConnor, CD" necessarily belongs to it, but still.)

Jojo Lapin X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kyberean Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is no "our race,"
>
> Really? There is no "human race," then? (I am not
> saying that "OConnor, CD" necessarily belongs to
> it, but still.)

Alright Jojo Lapin X, I take real offense to that. Why don't you just mind your own business and shut your mouth. It is because of people like you "Joking or Not" that makes others with good hearts look at the bulk of humanity as "Ugly, vile and compassionless jokes" who make the world a far more worse place to live. So why don't you do all of us a favor a and disappear. I can guarantee we will not miss you.

Please find somewhere else to abuse each other, I'm far to busy to properly moderate the forum, so next time I will just ban you both.

Quote:

Really? There is no "human race," then?

In my opinion, no, and the unquestioning assumption that such a unifying classification exists, especially among so-called "humans", is one that is long overdue for scrutiny. Fortunately, many biologists agree, and are critiquing the notion of species (The idea of "the human race" as a unified entity amounts to the same thing).

Even if the notion of a human species corresponds to reality, that fact does not mean that speciation within the so-called "race" cannot and will not occur. In fact, I suspect that it is beginning to occur even now, although, of course, the results will not be apparent for millions of years. I also imagine that a forward-looking thinker such as CAS would welcome this occurrence.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my opinion, no, and the unquestioning
> assumption that such a unifying classification
> exists, especially among so-called "humans", is
> one that is long overdue for scrutiny.
> Fortunately, many biologists agree, and are
> critiquing the notion of species (The idea of "the
> human race" as a unified entity amounts to the
> same thing).

Genetically, humans are practically indistinguishable from pigs. But the crucial difference is that you can explain to a human why he should not kill and eat you, whereas you cannot to a pig.

Quote:

But the crucial difference is that you can explain to a human why he should not kill and eat you, whereas you cannot to a pig.

That's not really an argument for the idea of species. The point is not whether one grouping differs from another, but whether each group is so alike that it should be unitarily classified. After all, some humans won't listen to your argument about why you should not be killed and eaten.

Anyway, I don't intend to argue the point, as it's tangential both to the thread and to the forum. The idea is merely set out for others' consideration. Most, I realize, will find the notion as incomprehensible as, for example, the idea that science does not reveal absolute truth, or that S.T. Joshi isn't Kittredge reincarnated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Sep 09 | 06:50AM by Kyberean.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After all, some humans won't listen to your
> argument about why you should not be killed and
> eaten.

They might not find my argument convincing, but they are nevertheless in principle capable of listening to it and understanding it. The reason I bring up the concept of morality as what distinguishes the human race from other species is that I felt---no doubt unfairly!---that some advocacy of genocide was perhaps implicit in your claim.

Understood, regarding your reference to morality. My rejoinder, in turn, alluded to the nature of morality as an inconsequential fig leaf. Morality exists simply to justify behavior that other forms of life perform instinctively. Again, morality may or may not be a marker for distinguishing humans from other forms of life, but it is certainly not a basis for arguing that what we call humans are a unitary species.

As for genocide, that was the farthest thing from my mind. One of the charming aspects of morality, however, is that one can use it to justify almost anything, from one perspective or another. As Nietzsche counsels, whenever anyone invokes morality, we should always ask, whose morality?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Sep 09 | 11:38AM by Kyberean.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morality
> exists simply to justify behavior that other forms
> of life perform instinctively.

Well, no. Morality is a discussion we have about which rules should govern our interaction. To be able to have such a discussion is unique to our species.

Quote:

Morality is a discussion we have about which rules should govern our interaction. To be able to have such a discussion is unique to our species.

Well, no. Idealistic assertions and wishful thinking aside, morality has historically served as a set of rationalizations to provide socially acceptable reasons for why we find some behaviors proper and not others. "There is no morality, only moralities" (Nietzsche). Sometimes these rationalizations take the form of dialogue, but, as history shows, for practical purposes they more often than not take the form of a monologue.

The very fact that the morality of some peoples allows for cannibalism, whereas others' does not, seems rather more important than the fact that you can plead your case for not being eaten before a cannibal tribunal--who may in fact find your assertions incomprehensible, or, from their perspective, absurd. This fact is also more relevant to the question of whether "species" is an accurate, or even useful, unitary concept.

I call morality a fig leaf because it attempts, pitifully and inadequately, to conceal far more base and basic drives and instincts. Nietzsche has discussed the subject quite thoroughly, and I refer you to his works if you have any more questions.

In sum, to be able to have discussions about morality may be unique on this planet to what you call humans, but, again, that fact has nothing to do whatsoever with my particular point about the concept of species, and whether humans can and should be considered a unitary species.

Anyway, I've made my point, so that's all for me on this subject. Feel free to take the last word, if you like.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes these
> rationalizations take the form of dialogue, but,
> as history shows, for practical purposes they more
> often than not take the form of a monologue.

Well, that is a start, at the very least! If you really believe that you may kill anyone you like, why talk about it at all? It might even alert your enemies to the threat and make them avoid you! Hence any attempt at justification already concedes the fundamental point, as it implies that you are, in effect, asking permission.

I am, in fact, familiar with Nietzsche. He is wonderful as a humorist and provocateur---I just do not think he had anything very interesting to say about the nature of morality.

Did CAS have a disdain for dogs, like Lovecraft did (who referred to dogs as peasants and cats as aristocrats)?

Lovecraft was wrong in his view on dogs as more stupid than cats. The different social behaviours of cats and dogs, and the more overtly dependent nature of dogs, and their goofyness, has no bearing on intelligence.

I love dogs, I grew up with them, and as a child they were centre of security, in a sometimes insecure environment. Dogs are not cruel, and they don't deceive you. Dogs are generous. Actually I feel more sympathy for dogs, than for humans. And I would probably be capable of bashing in the skull of anyone who is cruel to dogs (or to cats for that matter).

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I love dogs

Somehow I get the feeling you are trying to change the topic.

Jojo Lapin X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Somehow I get the feeling you are trying to change
> the topic.

No, not at all. I myself can never be prevented from going off-topic and "be tied to raw new thrads", so I won't stand in your way.

Dogs fit well into the species debate. Dogs and man are so much socially inter-connected, that I actually believe they are beginning to merge into one, or rather, parallell shapings sharing the same qualities, slowly, in a longer time perspective. Here are a few of my friends learning to talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lufZfbquoaQ&feature=related

And while I haven't read anything by Nietzsche, I found this TV-program about him quite sensible and convincing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pilLBcdSMI

Lovecraft's ailurophilia and his denigration of canines are ridiculous, I think, but to each his own preferences.

CAS, by contrast, like most members of the rural poor, did not have the luxury of sentimentalizing domestic animals, but he seemed fond enough of cats, in his way, provided that they could fend for themselves.

As an aside, I am a little surprised that CAS took such a zero-tolerance approach to rattlesnakes in the cabin's vicinity, as they tend to keep to themselves, and are useful to have around for rodent control. You just need to keep track of where they are!

Clark was fond of dogs, but could not afford to keep one, and dogs unfed, like people, tend to become feral.
The California Diamondback rattlesnake tends to be highly aggressive, and on the ridges where Clark lived they seek out shady places (gold mines, and well shafts) and, along with being dangerous (particularly to people with no ready access to medical care - I have his mother's home remedy book), are yummy when filet'd and either pan-fried, or wound on a forked stick and cooked over an open fire.

Kyberean Wrote:
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> Lovecraft's ailurophilia and his denigration of
> canines are ridiculous, I think, but to each his
> own preferences.

People who are mentally cool and anti-dependent when it comes to socializing with others, usually prefer cats. While those who are more emotional, generally like dogs better.

calonlan Wrote:
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> Clark was fond of dogs...

There is a nice photograph of a stylish Clark petting a dog in Selected Letters of CAS.

Calonlan:

Quote:

The California Diamondback rattlesnake tends to be highly aggressive

Interesting. The Florida and Arizona varieties must be less so, as I seldom had trouble with them. The only ones that make me nervous are the babies, as they cannot control the amount of venom they inject (and they are born with a full complement of it), nor, being without developed rattles, can they warn you! Scorpions were always a bigger concern to me in Arizona.

When I was a boy, I tried fried rattler once, which a camper had killed. I didn't care much for the taste, but then, I was always a bit of a finicky eater!

Knygatin:

Quote:

People who are mentally cool and anti-dependent when it comes to socializing with others, usually prefer cats.

That describes me perfectly, and yet I have always been more of a "dog person". There are always exceptions to categories, which is why I find them generally so useless, I suppose.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29 Sep 09 | 03:48PM by Kyberean.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"People who are mentally cool and anti-dependent when it comes to socializing with others, usually prefer cats."

> That describes me perfectly, and yet I have always
> been more of a "dog person". There are always
> exceptions to categories, which is why I find them
> generally so useless, I suppose.


Hmm... I wonder just how well you know thyself.

Quote:

I wonder just how well you know thyself.

Quite well enough, I think. When the "minute particulars", as Blake calls them, clash with a given category or generalization, then I tend to discard the generalization.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29 Sep 09 | 05:14PM by Kyberean.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder just how well you know thyself.
>
> Quite well enough, I think. When the "minute
> particulars", as Blake calls them, clash with a
> given category or generalization, then I tend to
> discard the generalization.

The essential "minute particulars" might just occupy a blind spot.
My impression of you, from having read your posts for some time, is that you are essentially a dog-person rather than a cool cat-personality. With all good compliments! Restless and impatiently eager to be heard immediately... wagging energetic enthusiasm or disdain... gushing disagreements, agreements, or sardonic annihilations. Perhaps disciplined in an intellectually refined package, but in short... quite emotional.

I enjoy both cats and dogs. As was stated Dogs are not stupid. I wonder if Lovecraft developed a disdain for dogs or was it in his upbringing. Although, cats can be like dogs. I've got 2 cats, Ebenezer and Phillips. Ebenezer wines constantly, especially if left alone or when picked up. Though Phillips is a people person but a loner. And dogs are smart as people on this board have stated. My dog reacts differently to individual names and commands. He knows how to speak, rollover, and catch popcorn in his mouth.



Phillips, I believe, would be a major enjoyment for Lovecraft. He is curious and constantly playing, loving and very loyal. Plus he is patient like you wouldn't believe. In the 2 yeas I've had him hes only "meowed" 1 time. Though he can be a problem sometimes because he loves to pounce and then wrap himself around your shoulders like a shawl and lick your hair clean of dirt and oil.

Knygatin,

Interesting perspective! Everything you've written about me also applies to the quintessential ailurophile, Lovecraft.

In addition, I am sure you've heard of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30 Sep 09 | 12:11PM by Kyberean.

re the cooking of Rattlesnake -
snakes from dry or desert areas tend to be tastier than those in damper climes, due, no doubt, to a diet richer in protein, and lacking in the denizens of muddy areas.
Also, they are far better if fileted as mentioned before.
I am starting a minor revolution here in South Texas since they generally cut them by length, leaving in the alimentary canal, and, for my taste, fouling the flavor.
We have two major events here, Rattlesnake Races, and an annual Rattlesnake Roundup - the latter originated in the desert country to make it a little safer, now, of course, it is continued because it is (a)fun,(b) gathering venom for antitoxins, and (c) for the hides for boots, belts et al (indeed, the queen of the event wears a snake mini-skirt). However many they catch they do not seem to have much affect on the overall population. It is, of course, much faster to chop them up lengthwise if you are running a food booth at a fair, nevertheless, if the snake is thick enough to have a fair amount of meat, slice the meat off the bone. One year at the end of summer camp season, my wife cut the meat of a Sierra Rattler into "fish stick" lengths, breaded it and fried it, thus fooling a number of camp cousellors into thinking it was fish and giving it a try - most loved it until the truth was revealed, thus exposing the prejudice that affects taste. After all, anyone who has lived with chickens about the yard, and will still eat one after seeing what they will eat (including each other) should have no trouble eating Rattler - it is a far cleaner creature than the chicken - at any rate, when rations are low, as they usually were at the Smith home, snake is a good alternative, and much better than spam.

Kyberean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin,
>
> Interesting perspective!... I am sure you've heard of the parable
> of the blind men and the elephant. ;-)

Ay, we are "the blind men and the elephant" at the same time, fumbling and thrashing about, enveloped by the Cosmic Sea. But as soon as we quiet down, and silence our minds, we are the Cosmic Sea.