I'm coming back to CAS after years of not reading him. In fact, I've probably read only a dozen of his tales all told. But as Lovecraft has recently pulled me back into his fictions, and my enjoyment of his work is now stronger than ever, I hope that CAS might also prove my original misgivings false. Back then his prose struck me as too flowery, and figuring the meat of CAS was the language, not the plot, I realized it wasn't for me. But I'm trying again, beginning anew.

I'm lucky enough to have held onto the Necronomicon Press restored texts of "The Vaults of Yoh-Vimbis" and "The Dweller in the Gulf" and very much enjoy my rereading of those. Does Steve Behrends post here? If so, great work!

My main reason for this post was to ask:

I recently picked up the Necronomicon Press trade PB's of TALES OF ZOTHIQUE and THE BOOK OF HYPERBOREA... do you guys consider this CAS's better work? A decent place to start? I know the newest Arkham collection is probably the best place to start, but I don't have that, and I fear that there might be enough duplication between that volume and these two that I won't soon be getting it.

Another question: between these two books and the Ballantine Adult Fantasy paperbacks, it seems like the vast majority of CAS's fiction falls into various story cycles. Zothique, Hyperborea, Poseidonis(?), etc. Is this the case? How much of his stuff might not fall into these groups, like the above-mentioned "Vaults of Yoh-Vimbis" and "The Dweller in the Gulf"? I wonder if I might not like these tales more.

Great site, glad to be here. I wish there was a similiar forum for Lovecraft. I know of the yahoo groups, but much prefer an actual forum.

Thanks,
Roger

Hi New Guy. I think you have chosen a fine starting point you should also consider Clark Ashton Smith: Emperor of Dreams while its still in print, even the pathetic bookshops in my grotto of a small town, sell it.

You can check the sites bibliography for full contents listing to reduce duplication though it is always the way with short story writers that you own several copies of some stories.

A little bit on CAS's fiction cycles can be found here
[www.eldritchdark.com]

Glad you enjoyed the site, and pleased to see some activity in here.

B.

If your primary interest is in plot, then I'd recommend that you read a few more of CAS's tales on this site before investing money in a volume of them, in order to be certain that they are to your taste. Although I think that critics have exaggerated CAS's deficiencies in this area, plot is definitely not the reason to read CAS's fiction. Like S. T. Joshi, I consider most of CAS's tales to be an outgrowth of, and a variation on, his poetry (although I have a higher opinion of them than he does), and feel that they are best read as extended prose poems.

Welcome, New guy!,
Regarding "plot" in CAS tales: when one has read a number of his
tales, as time goes bye you may find what you remember are "images"
and "scenes" - ie: the old abbott begging for death in "Black Abbott";
the bloated "mother of toads" hovering over your body; the faces
in the flora of the "Garden of Adompha"; the escape of the lovers
in "The Charnal God"; satan raking his nails across the open diaphragm
of a maid while pondering his next move in "Schizoid Creator"; etc...
This is to say that Kevin is quite right in suggesting that "images",
or poetic vision is the thrust of Clark's work - as in theatre, what is
remembered is some particular moment in the drama or comedy; the plot
is the stage where the drama takes place, it is not itself the drama This is an
advantage of the short story over the novel for many writers - no risk
of leaving some thread untidily hanging. Take the time if you can
to look into the new collection of poetry,"The Lost Oblivion" - while
some of those I consider his best were left out, it is a good and
comprehensive look at CAS' poetry - it may surprise you, but be prepared
to sweat a little - this is not "Jack and Jill."

Dr. Farmer:

Although I'm a bit off-topic here, may I ask what favorite CAS poems of yours don't appear in The Last Oblivion? I can't help being curious.

Roger et al:
Many but not all of Smith's stories fall into story-cycles united by a common setting, of which Zothique and Hyperborea are but two. Since you have both of these volumes plus the two from the Unexpurgated CAS series (and no, Steve Behrends doesn't post here since he has largely gafiated, although I understand he is at work on a revision of his Starmont Reader's Guide), you really have most of the stories from A RENDEZVOUS IN AVEROIGNE. However, some of those that you don't have are really great ones: "The City of the Singing Flame" as it was originally published (all versions from OUT OF SPACE AND TIME on include the sequel, felt by many to be inferior, "Beyond the Singing Flame," with bridging paragraph written by Walter Gillings for the British sf pulp TALES OF WONDER), "The End of the Story," "The Colossus of Ylourgne" (read this and tell me that CAS couldn't do plot), "Genius Loci," "The Uncharted Isle," "Master of the Asteroid," "Planet of the Dead," etc. You might do better picking up the Wildside Press reprint of THE DOUBLE SHADOW, CAS' 1933 self-published chapbook that contained six of his best stories, but beware! as he wrote then, these were "atmosphere not action."
On whether or not CAS could handle plot: funny thing, but the recent availability of so much of CAS' juvenile fiction shows that he was quite capable of writing competently plotted fiction even before he published his first book of poetry. However, as his letters and essays make clear, he was more interested in creating an imaginative escape from mundanity through various poetic techniques than in manipulating stock figures through artificial crisises.
I agree that THE LAST OBLIVION omits some of CAS' best work. For instance, two of his finest, most personal poems, "The Old Water Wheel" (published in POETRY, founded by Harriet Monroe, and so a good poem even by the standards of contemporary American poetry) and "Town Lights," were not included. Likewise "O Golden Tongued Romance" and "Tired Gardner." We'll be including some of these in LOST WORLDS and THE FANTASTIC WORLDS OF CLARK ASHTON SMITH.
Dr. Farmer is dead-on in his observation about Clark being able to create vivid images in his stories. One of my favorites is that of the macrocosmic stallions stampeding towards the royal palace from the end of "The Dark Eidolon" (another more-than-competently plotted story). However, the image that he quotes from "Schizoid Creator" Smith borrowed from George Sterling's "A Wine of Wizardry:"

And Satan, yawning on his brazen seat,
Fondles a screaming thing his fiends have flayed,
Ere Lilith come his indolence to greet...

I have an article on a particularly subtle example of Sterling's influence on CAS, called "Life, Love and the Clemency of Death: 'The Isle of the Torturers' Reexamined," in issue two of WORMWOOD from Tartarus Press in the UK. I think it's pretty good, but then I'm prejudiced. ;-)
Incidentally, Joshi has relented somewhat in his criticism of Smith's stories, admitting that there are many first-rate stories buried among his "appalling prolificity" (CAS' own term, from a letter to HPL). It helps to remember that Joshi first read CAS in TALES OF SCIENCE AND SORCERY and OTHER DIMENSIONS, not CAS' best collections by any means (although each does contain some gems). I started on HYPERBOREA and the Spearman reprint of OUT OF SPACE AND TIME.
Best wishes to you all,
Scott Connors

PS--LOST WORLDS 1 is shipping now. Please let me know what you all think of it.

I want to be clear in my agreement that CAS's frequent lack of complex plotting arises from choice, not from incompetence, although I do suspect that the pace at which he wrote during his "fiction writing campaign" may at times have affected his plotting. It's interesting, Scott, that you should mention "The Colossus of Ylourgne" in this respect. That is by far my favorite Averoigne tale, a collection of stories that, in general, I can take or leave, otherwise. I've heard that Clive Barker borrowed elements from this story in one of his Books of Blood, but I haven't verified this for myself.

Quote:

I agree that THE LAST OBLIVION omits some of CAS' best work. For instance, two of his finest, most personal poems, "The Old Water Wheel" (published in POETRY, founded by Harriet Monroe, and so a good poem even by the standards of contemporary American poetry) and "Town Lights," were not included. Likewise "O Golden Tongued Romance" and "Tired Gardner."

The point, though, was to include only weird or fantastic poetry in The Last Oblivion, no? I'm wondering which of Dr. Farmer's or others' favorites in that realm of poetry failed to make their way into the volume. As for contemporary American poetry, I freely confess that I'm one of those who would put that last word between quotation marks. ;-)

Steve Behrends doesn't post here since he has largely gafiated, although I understand he is at work on a revision of his Starmont Reader's Guide.

I respect tremendously Behrends's efforts and his devotion to keeping alive the memory of CAS's works. However, his notions that CAS was not a cosmicist, but a mere misanthrope, and that he was some sort of effete, non-intellectual "pure poet" or aesthete, utterly untroubled by ideas and philosophical problems, are--and there's really no polite way to put this, so I won't even try--patently ridiculous. Best of luck with Lost Worlds, by the way. I'm sure that it shall be an enormous improvement over Behrends's former CAS journal.

How nice to see some stirrings here!

Kevin: In answer to your query(partial - I don't have the books before
me at the moment - Scott named several in his post; i would add,
"Not altogether sleep" - this is a masterpiece in my opinion. I
approach poetry almost entirely from the perspective of sound, and this
little jewel is one of Clark's best. The analyst who only knows the
poem as a "read" experience and not a "heard" experience is missing the
essence of the raison d'tre of poetry. My old friend John Ciardi wrote
an excellent book entitled, "How does a poem mean?" - that is the essential question in poetic analysis -- how is it done? is it successful in conveying meaning more profoundly than ordinary prose is
capable of achieving: "I walked by myself" or "I wandered lonely as
a cloud", to give a simple example. Reminder that DSF has asked me to
join him in recording some of the poetry - could happen.
I am also especially fond of the poem which begins - "The sunset gonfalons are furled..." (can't recall the title at the moment - senior moment no doubt).
For Scott: The satan image mentioned in the previous which you rightly attribute to Lovecraft in origin, is, nevertheless greatly improved by
CAS don't you think? The sheer indifference to this ultimate act of
sado-masochism upon the victim goes beyond "fondling" - I am familiar
existentially with fondling, and have always found that considerable joy surrounds that term - which makes CAS' image so astounding in its profound ghastliness. Great stuff -
Kevin: afterthought - though it is not in the fantasy realm, the poem,
"Temporality" in SWORD OF ZAGAN, written in 1928, is a fine and moving
love poem - particularly for older lovers like myself -- my wife loves
the sentiment therein - so do I.

Sorry Kevin - forgot to add this note - I don't know Steve Behrend's or his views but if anyone thought Clark was a misanthrope, effete
aesthete, and/or uninterested in philosophical exchange, a single evening with him (particularly in the old "Happy Hour" tavern in
Old Town Auburn) would have cured him of such an absurd notion instantly.
In today's world, a "one-shot" sensation called "the Keats of the
Sierras might easily have been scooped inescapably into the whirl of
notoriety - rock groups would record his stuff, and he could have
been swallowed in the whirl-pool mini-fame, night-time talk shows, etc.
and been eventually a shortterm bon-vivant and raconteur of the jet
set -- before he blew his brains out - Clark came to savour aloneness,while still yearning to have his works read and known - yet never shunned company (only crowds - although where indeed is one more
alone?).
Dr. F

Thanks all for the feedback. Sometimes it takes a "New Guy" to respark a forum.

I'll keep reading these posts with interest.

Roger

Dr. Farmer:

In case you're interested in reading it, here is link to Behrends's "CAS: Cosmicist or Misanthrope?" article: [www.eldritchdark.com] .

I do suspect that, at least during certain periods of his life, CAS was a misanthrope, but of the Swiftian variety: That is, one who despises the human race as a whole, but who may genuinely love and esteem particular individuals within it.

Apropos of Behrends's essay, there's much that one might say about it, but, in brief, he errs in assuming that cosmicism and misanthropy are mutually exclusive. He also errs when he cites Lovecraft--whose splenetic outbursts toward humans in general, and toward foreigners, in particular, exceeds in bile anything that I've ever read from the typewriter of CAS--as an exemplar of detached cosmicism. Since Beherends claims--rather arbitrarily and debatably--that detachment from the human race is an essential component of cosmicism, one that CAS lacked, his argument goes off the rails almost immediately.

The portrayal of CAS as a man who is allergic to ideas appears in the Starmont Guide to CAS to which Scott referred.

Kevin Shelton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Behrends doesn't post here since he has
> largely gafiated, although I understand he is at
> work on a revision of his Starmont Reader's Guide.
>
> I respect tremendously Behrends's efforts and his
> devotion to keeping alive the memory of CAS's
> works. However, his notions that CAS was not a
> cosmicist, but a mere misanthrope, and that he was
> some sort of effete, non-intellectual "pure poet"
> or aesthete, utterly untroubled by ideas and
> philosophical problems, are--and there's really no
> polite way to put this, so I won't even
> try--patently ridiculous.

So is Behrend CAS' de Camp? An unsympathetic, erroneous biographer? Glad to see that CAS 'fandom' has the same type of drama that HPL fandom does!

Quote:

So is Behrend CAS' de Camp?

Oh, no; not at all. Behrends is quite sympathetic to CAS, and his efforts on behalf of CAS and his work are pioneering and admirable. Unlike de Camp* with Lovecraft, Behrends's aim is to support CAS, not to undermine him. I simply disagree with Behrends's interpretation of both the man and his work. For instance, in the Starmont Guide, Behrends also portrays CAS as having lived a miserable, lonely, poverty-ridden life, and implies that his motive for writing was as an escape from such an existence. Behrends seems incapable of imagining (and he's hardly alone in this, especially in our decadent era) that anyone could, via a richer spiritual and imaginative experience of life, actually be content on a deeper level without having much money, and without being surrounded by people. Behrends, however, never approaches the vulgarity of de Camp, whom, as you recall, at periodic intervals chides Lovecraft for not being content to earn a living churning out reams of pulp garbage--in other words, for not taking the path of de Camp!



*De Camp corresponded with CAS late in the latter's life, and wrote an article about him, "Sierran Shaman", that appears on this Web site, as well, I believe. It's been years since I read it, and I remember little about it, but it certainly has nothing in common with the hatchet-job that de Camp does on Lovecraft. Perhaps de Camp was more sympathetic to CAS because, for a while, at least, CAS, unlike Lovecraft, was more willing to play the "game" of pulp fiction.

Thanks Kevin for the clarification and further info. Being new to CAS "studies", I only know Behrends as the guy who wrote the Starmont guide AND the guy who prepared the corrected texts. My guess was that he might be to CAS what Joshi is to HPL. Like Joshi, perhaps his most important contribution to his subject, his legacy so to speak, will be the corrected texts he's published.

Back to the two Necronomicon paperbacks... do you think Behrends worked on all these tales along with Will Murray? And I wonder how much was restored/corrected?

Sick of my questions yet? Well here's another. Does Will Murray still 'work' in the field? I've always enjoyed his articles in back issues of CRYPT OF CTHULHU and elsewhere.

Roger:

I'm afraid that more knowledgeable individuals in the field than I will have to address your latest questions. I'd never even heard of Murray until the Hyperborea and Zothique tomes appeared. From Scott's remarks, I'm inferring, perhaps incorrectly, that there may have been some turf-guarding and toe-stepping involved with those Necronomicon Press volumes, but that's as far as I can speculate.