Ok, I just read my first story by Charles Beaumont, "Fritzchen". Not very good. Chaotic prose, impulsive, shallow, not well grounded. Improbable communication tone between father and son. Beaumont has been compared to Bradbury, but doesn't at all have the clear profound prose of the master. I understand he was womanizer buddies with Harlan Ellison, and I guess most of his brain was occupied with that.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I just read my first story by Charles
> Beaumont, "Fritzchen". Not very good. Chaotic
> prose, impulsive, shallow, not well grounded.
> Improbable communication tone between father and
> son. Beaumont has been compared to Bradbury, but
> doesn't at all have the clear profound prose of
> the master. I understand he was womanizer buddies
> with Harlan Ellison, and I guess most of his brain
> was occupied with that.


Ellison certainly seemed to be a master self-promoter. It seemed to me that he had a sort of "splash" talent--could write overwhelmingly emotional content, so much so that it exceeded my personal boundaries of taste. Sentimentalism, like Hemingway when he was in an alcoholic stupor.

Naturally, I'm overstating for effect...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ellison certainly seemed to be a master
> self-promoter. It seemed to me that he had a sort
> of "splash" talent--could write overwhelmingly
> emotional content, so much so that it exceeded my
> personal boundaries of taste. Sentimentalism,
> like Hemingway when he was in an alcoholic
> stupor.
>
> Naturally, I'm overstating for effect...

I have not read anything by him. Jojo Lapin X (previous ED poster) said Ellison was unreadable (as well as Ligotti). I don't know about Ellison, but I find Ligotti highly readable (at least some of it that isn't too allegorically naval-gazing and self-pitying); I love Ligotti when he uses his humor, and when he is a true extension of Lovecraft's perspective.

I miss Jojo Lapin X.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ellison certainly seemed to be a master
> > self-promoter. It seemed to me that he had a
> sort
> > of "splash" talent--could write overwhelmingly
> > emotional content, so much so that it exceeded
> my
> > personal boundaries of taste. Sentimentalism,
> > like Hemingway when he was in an alcoholic
> > stupor.
> >
> > Naturally, I'm overstating for effect...
>
> I have not read anything by him. Jojo Lapin X
> (previous ED poster) said Ellison was unreadable
> (as well as Ligotti). I don't know about Ellison,
> but I find Ligotti highly readable (at least some
> of it that isn't too allegorically naval-gazing
> and self-pitying); I love Ligotti when he uses his
> humor, and when he is a true extension of
> Lovecraft's perspective.

By your recommendation I read some Ligotti and it was a revelation. Quite effective, I thought.

My only problem with him is purely subjective: I can get to feeling like I do when reading about a horrible and degenerate mass murderer, like Gacy.

I got this same feeling when reading the death parts of James Ellroy's Black Dahlia. That level of blind, senseless, almost *celebratory* cruelty is extremely repellent to me.

Much as I hate group activities, I could almost be convinced to join a good-natured, enthusiastic lynch mob for Gacy, or Jack the Ripper (if he could be found). "Doing the species a favor", as I'd see it.

FWIW, you can overlook Ellison entirely and not miss much. It's not so much that he's unreadable as that he quickly comes across as a ham-fisted narcissist--to me, at least.

It's a problem of literary voice...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By your recommendation I read some Ligotti and it
> was a revelation. Quite effective, I thought.
>
> My only problem with him is purely subjective: I
> can get to feeling like I do when reading about a
> horrible and degenerate mass murderer, like Gacy.
>

I don't recall that sensation from the stories I have read by him, except in "The Frolic". For me they are more like dark fantasy, similar to Lovecraft. But we may have read different stories.

Sawfish Wrote:

> That level
> of blind, senseless, almost *celebratory* cruelty
> is extremely repellent to me.
>
> Much as I hate group activities, I could almost be
> convinced to join a good-natured, enthusiastic
> lynch mob [...].

There is rich irony here. ;)

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > By your recommendation I read some Ligotti and
> it
> > was a revelation. Quite effective, I thought.
> >
> > My only problem with him is purely subjective:
> I
> > can get to feeling like I do when reading about
> a
> > horrible and degenerate mass murderer, like
> Gacy.
> >
>
> I don't recall that sensation from the stories I
> have read by him, except in "The Frolic". For me
> they are more like dark fantasy, similar to
> Lovecraft. But we may have read different stories.


No, The Frolic was TERRIFIC. Scary, though, especially for a parent.

I read a lot more before I got into the really unpleasant stuff.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
>
> > That level
> > of blind, senseless, almost *celebratory*
> cruelty
> > is extremely repellent to me.
> >
> > Much as I hate group activities, I could almost
> be
> > convinced to join a good-natured, enthusiastic
> > lynch mob [...].
>
> There is rich irony here. ;)

Hah!

I hope you like it! :^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I miss Jojo Lapin X.


Well, many left ED at about the same time, when the more famous users either died away or dismissed us. I ascribe this sheepish following partly to a need of being star-struck.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I miss Jojo Lapin X.
>
>
> Well, many left ED at about the same time, when
> the more famous users either died away or
> dismissed us. I ascribe this sheepish following
> partly to a need of being star-struck.


I see where I registered in 2004. I was not a regular until maybe 3 or so years ago.

What sorts of things happened here on ED? I feel certain that there's an oral tradition surrounding the evolution of the group. There's always something like that on most forums. It's like the Aeneid of misfits, often.

I mean, this is a fairly sedate group, much to my liking. In fact, I often worry that I'm a kind of squeaky wheel here.

Let's send this back over to the open topics thread. Me, I don't care if we stay here, but others have made cogent and reasonable arguments why we should stick fairly close to topic, and in principal I agree with them.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The discussion thread about "Xelucha" has piqued my interest for Melmoth the Wanderer, and also for Radcliffe's The Mysteries of Udolpho and Lewis' The Monk. I doubt I would have the patience to plough through these early Gothics, since the subject matter really doesn't attract me much. Still, being much talked about "classics", I remain none the less curious to get at what is so remarkable about them. I wish I could experience their essential cores, without too much effort or time spent.

I read Le Fanu's dusty Gothic tale The Haunted Baronet, and was bored with it. I much prefer his shorter witty tales. I am glad the Gothic tale was replaced by more imaginary writers by the turn of the century, such as Blackwood, Machen, and Hodgson, ... and by the awakening culture of fantasy, horror, and science fiction writers.

Knygatin Wrote:
> I read Le Fanu's dusty Gothic tale The Haunted
> Baronet, and was bored with it. I much prefer his
> shorter witty tales.

One weakness of Le Fanu as a writer of long fiction is a tendency towards abrupt shifts of perspective that shatter a reader's attempt to get invested in a single character. I distinctly remember this happening to me in The Haunted Baronet.

His shorter fiction tends to avoid this flaw, either because the author adopts a distant journalistic perspective throughout, or because the tale stays focused on a single protagonist throughout.

Unfortunately, Le Fanu spent much of his career writing "sensational novels" in the style of Wilkie Collins The Woman In White. I have not yet read The Woman in White, but I understand it successfully juggles multiple points of view. Which Le Fanu cannot do.

Le Fanu's one novel that is remembered today is Uncle Silas. And it is no coincidence, I think, that this novel contains no shifts of perspective. The reader stays with Maud Ruthyn throughout. I hesitate to recommend it though, to one who is looking for excitement, especially supernatural excitement. In this novel you will be settling in with Maud and her petty concerns and sympathizing when her mean French governess twists her finger. The strength of the novel is that it allows you do do that if you feel so inclined, and does not abruptly yank you away. If you are willing to do that for 400 pages, then the denouement is exciting enough. But it certainly is a dusty old Gothic, if that's what you want to avoid.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> One weakness of Le Fanu as a writer of long
> fiction is a tendency towards abrupt shifts of
> perspective that shatter a reader's attempt to get
> invested in a single character. I distinctly
> remember this happening to me in The Haunted
> Baronet.
>

Yes, and I remember a lack of focus. I found nothing, or no one, in it to engage me. I remember only dust, and some old forgotten lake I think.

>
> Unfortunately, Le Fanu spent much of his career
> writing "sensational novels" in the style of
> Wilkie Collins The Woman In White. I have not yet
> read The Woman in White, but I understand it
> successfully juggles multiple points of view.
> Which Le Fanu cannot do.
>

Have you enjoyed Collin's The Moonstone? Eldritch Dark poster Jojo Lapin X thinks very highly of it as literature's original detective novel.

I have not read anything by Collins, but intend to read "Mad Monkton" sometime.


> Le Fanu's one novel that is remembered today is
> Uncle Silas. And it is no coincidence, I think,
> that this novel contains no shifts of perspective.
> The reader stays with Maud Ruthyn throughout. I
> hesitate to recommend it though, to one who is
> looking for excitement, especially supernatural
> excitement. In this novel you will be settling in
> with Maud and her petty concerns and sympathizing
> when her mean French governess twists her finger.
> The strength of the novel is that it allows you do
> do that if you feel so inclined, and does not
> abruptly yank you away. If you are willing to do
> that for 400 pages, then the denouement is
> exciting enough. But it certainly is a dusty old
> Gothic, if that's what you want to avoid.


I believe it is Jojo Lapin X's favorite novel.


If there are some good supernatural elements to cheer things up and lift us above the mundane level, I don't mind so much, but otherwise the dusty Gothic makes me depressed.

Knygatin Wrote:
> Yes, and I remember a lack of focus. I found
> nothing, or no one, in it to engage me. I remember
> only dust, and some old forgotten lake I think.

Yeah, he never really did much with that lake.

> Have you enjoyed Collin's The Moonstone? Eldritch
> Dark poster Jojo Lapin X thinks very highly of it
> as literature's original detective novel.
>
> I have not read anything by Collins, but intend to
> read "Mad Monkton" sometime.

No, I've only read his short story about the Terrible Strange Bed. I was planning to start with The Woman in White.


> I believe it is Jojo Lapin X's favorite novel.
>
> If there are some good supernatural elements to
> cheer things up and lift us above the mundane
> level, I don't mind so much, but otherwise the
> dusty Gothic makes me depressed.

I'm more or less on Jojo Lapin X's side, and don't want to talk anyone out of reading Uncle Silas. But I'd be lying if I promised you supernatural thrills.