Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Machen imagined the "Little People" in varying
> ways depending on the story he wanted to tell. In
> a couple of stories they are troglodytes who are
> survivals of an evolutionary offshoot of the main
> branch represented by modern humans ("The Black
> Seal," "The Shining Pyramid"). In other stories
> he has gone on to a more elusive concept that
> links them to poltergeists (e.g. The Green Round;
> and see his obscure piece about Mt. Nephin), etc.
> This variant appeals to me more than the atavistic
> survival one even though I have loved the
> atmosphere built up, the evocation of the
> Welsh-English border, in "The Black Seal" for many
> years.
>
> [fanac.org]

The folktales are variable, so I don't see why the fiction should not be variable as well. I prefer to read the stories as consistent - different glimpses of a wider truth - like the six blind men groping about the elephant. I don't say that's the only way to read it, but I find Machen's tales more interesting that way.

In "The Great God Pan", we encounter both an invisible nature spirit or "fairy" (Pan himself) as well as a supernatural monster (Helen) who is also a descendant of humans, in this case of modern humans. Why should this be seen as a contradiction? They are two aspects of the same complicated picture. Why should not a similar confusion or ambiguity apply to descendants of the prehistoric peoples who preceded the Celts? Machen's little people may be atavistic survivals, but they are also devil worshipers, and maybe descendants of devils as well.

In "The Black Seal", the "special" boy has powers that can only be called supernatural. He is a descendant, perhaps, from ancient Turanians, and also perhaps from modern humans. Does that prevent him from having fairy and/or devil heritage as well?

Among the theories presented in "The Terror" are (1) fairies; (2) enemies working underground; and (3) nature turning against man. Do these theories actually contradict each other? Is there no connection drawn, in Machen's work, between fauns, subterranean little people, and nature spirits? The "nature turning against man" theory seems to have the last word, but then, a few years later, he is once again blaming a very similar phenomenon on the little people.

Platypus, would you be comfortable with the approach you describe being characterized as "Machen's Little People Mythos"? Doing so would invite readers to consider the individual stories not only as they stand but as units in a corpus of texts. Whereas I would lean, as I said, towards seeing the stories in a non-Mythos way, with Machen working with whatever materials suited his purposes for that particular one.

Where I'd perhaps transgress my own principle is in looking to see if his stories could be reconciled with each other in terms of ideas that are prevalent in Machen's writing even outside his fiction, e.g. what one might be able to work out as being Machen's "theory" of evil.

But would it be a good idea to move further discussion on these things to a Machen thread?

Is anyone else here, other than Platypus and myself, interested in reading folktales? Stories in the genre of the macabre sometimes refer or allude to the study of folklore, and it seems it would be interesting to get a sense of what it's meant to be a folklorist in the past 200 years. We must be coming up on the bicentennial of classic collections such as the Grimms'.

I'm continuing a reading of Christiansen's Folktales of Norway and finding those elements of humor and terror....

Platypus wrote, "You mention Dasent's translation, reminding me I have not yet read it."

I've read the Norwegian tales in (a print-on-demand edition of) "Popular Tales from the Norse." I got that edition largely because of Tolkien's reference to it in "On Fairy-Stories."

What with Tolkien's interest, I suppose I should get the complete series of "Color" Fairy Books attributed to Andrew Lang. (My understanding is that his wife actually did much of the writing of the versions of the stories.) I have only two of them -- common Dover reprints.

The Internet Archive permits online reading of "Folktales of Norway," although it is still under copyright. I think you have to "renew" the book every hour.

[archive.org]

I have just read one of the stories there, "The Tufte-Folk on Sandflesa." It was delectable -- eerie and exciting, a tale with both wonder and fear. The treacherous brother finds that it's not only the rich and merry tufte-folk who visit this elusive island....

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus wrote, "You mention Dasent's translation,
> reminding me I have not yet read it."
>
> I've read the Norwegian tales in (a
> print-on-demand edition of) "Popular Tales from
> the Norse." I got that edition largely because of
> Tolkien's reference to it in "On Fairy-Stories."
>
> What with Tolkien's interest, I suppose I should
> get the complete series of "Color" Fairy Books
> attributed to Andrew Lang. (My understanding is
> that his wife actually did much of the writing of
> the versions of the stories.) I have only two of
> them -- common Dover reprints.

I have all-but-one, I think. One problem with Lang's fairy books is that they are sometimes censored - not too seriously for the most part - to appease Victorian-era parents.

I was just now reading Dasent's version of "The Master-Maid", and at one point said to myself "Gosh, I don't remember that particular detail"; and then, upon checking with Lang's version in THE BLUE FAIRY BOOK, found that it had indeed been changed.

Also, within the past year, while looking into "little people" stories, I read Kennedy's 1866 version of "The Fairy Nurse"; and, upon comparing Lang's version, I found all references to breastfeeding removed. Which alters, or at least conceals, the entire motive of the fairies for kidnapping the farmer's wife; and also changes the meaning of the title ("nurse" = "breastfeeder")

I have long been aware of the alterations to "The Princess in the Chest", in which a final gruesome paragraph is removed, and replaced with half-joking speculations as to the benign fate of the missing sentries. Not that I really mind Lang's version, since even as a child I understood the final paragraph was a joke, and that in fact the sentries had been horribly done away with.

You know the Lang books better than I; interesting comments. I wonder if the uneasiness you detected about breastfeeding was more a social thing (women of a lower class being hired to nurse the infants of more genteel folk) or was more about the exposure of an intimate part of a woman's body -- although I think some of the women in the drawings in the Lang fairy books are nude or only partially draped, right? Perhaps the matter was partly one, partly the other, and partly something else.

I've just read about the Oskorei in Christiansen's "Folktales of Norway." This is a troop of noisy rushing dreadful spirits (the "wild hunt" idea) -- and somehow I don't think it was till now that I thought to wonder if Tolkien's horse-riding Ringwraiths might owe something to the Oskorei.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
> I have just read one of the stories there, "The
> Tufte-Folk on Sandflesa." It was delectable --
> eerie and exciting, a tale with both wonder and
> fear. The treacherous brother finds that it's not
> only the rich and merry tufte-folk who visit this
> elusive island....


I just read and enjoyed it. Two different kinds of "little people". I guess the first kind are mountain fairies, even though they are currently seafaring. Thanks for the suggestion.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the uneasiness you detected
> about breastfeeding was more a social thing (women
> of a lower class being hired to nurse the infants
> of more genteel folk) or was more about the
> exposure of an intimate part of a woman's body --
> although I think some of the women in the drawings
> in the Lang fairy books are nude or only partially
> draped, right?

The illustrator started with the barest hint of a topless mermaid in the first volume, and got gradually more daring.

But it may be more a squeamishness about bodily functions, than an attempt to deny that women have breasts.

Or maybe just that the translater/adaptor, the editor, and the illustrator, were not entirely on the same page.

Or maybe just a calculated trade-off. If one wants to get away with a few naughty pictures, it might be best to make sure the text is clean.

I wonder if there are any really great libraries for researchers into Victorian publishing, such that valid generalizations about the illustrations in books of fairy tales, etc., could be made. To start with, do we even have a good bibliography of what was published during the 1837-1901 period, in the genre of fairy tales and fantasy -- whether marketed as for children or children and adults or adults? We'd have to limit the inquiry by nationality, too, to keep it manageable, I suppose -- so one could aim at books published in London. I wonder! My guess is that some people (present company excluded) make assumptions on the basis of insufficient information.

That "Victorian period" too covers a long time in the history of publishing. What might be the case in the 1840s might not be so in the 1890s.

Likewise the style with which the stories were presented. I have the impression (!) that a fair bit of folktale material published in the period was "written up" in a more literary style than that of the original tellers. Conversely, some of it might be burdened by being written in a dialect style intended to suggest the original teller, but producing an effect of quaintness not really appropriate for serious use.

My understanding is that the Norwegian collectors of folktales had to make decisions about how to print the stories; there was the "landsmaal" or peasant Norwegian that was different from the Norwegian of the educated and urban Norwegians. I know next to nothing about this. It seems to me I might have read that Sigrid Undset, in writing her famous (and excellent!) Kristin Lavransdatter historical novels, drew upon the landsmaal. By the way, those three books are not "supernatural fiction," and yet early in the first one, Kristin sees one of the Hidden People. See pp. 16ff. here:

[archive.org]

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus, would you be comfortable with the
> approach you describe being characterized as
> "Machen's Little People Mythos"?

Well, my approach isn't confined to little people. I think I agree with it, but I'm a bit unsure what baggage others might attach to the word "Mythos". I would rather say than when I enjoy an author, I would rather suspend disbelief in all of his stories at once, rather than one at a time, unless there is a good reason not to.

At least in his London stories, Machen seems to encourage this approach by having semi-recurring characters. Dyson appears in "The Red Hand", "The Shining Pyramid", "The Inmost Light" and "The Three Impostors". Villiers appears in "A Wonderful Woman" and "The Great God Pan". Phillipps appears in "The Red Hand", "The Three Impostors" and "The Lost Club". Austin appears in "The Lost Club" and "The Great God Pan." Davies, one of the imposters from "The Three Impostors", gets a mention in "The Inmost Light", when Dyson is mistaken for Davies.

Ambrose from "The White People" seems to be the same person as the Recluse from "Hieroglyphics". Not sure what the connection is to Ambrose Meyrick from 2 other short pieces.

I've played with the idea that Helen from "The Three Impostors" is the same as Helen from "The Great God Pan". But I cannot find strong evidence for or against the idea. But of course, both are diabolically evil and involved with cult activities. What her connection is to Helen Lally and Helen Leicester (seeming innocents), from the stories she tells, is unclear.

I like looking for these cross references and connections, though I don't know if in the end they prove anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2 Mar 23 | 11:09PM by Platypus.

I'd been aware of Machen's re-use of some names, but I don't remember seeing a compilation of data like yours before. I suppose Machen's reasons for the repeated use of the names could have been whimsy or, on the other hand, a serious building-up of a layer of meaning not obvious to casual readers, or something in between these extremes. Or just convenience -- why not reuse names he liked? Hmm!

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd been aware of Machen's re-use of some names,
> but I don't remember seeing a compilation of data
> like yours before. I suppose Machen's reasons for
> the repeated use of the names could have been
> whimsy or, on the other hand, a serious
> building-up of a layer of meaning not obvious to
> casual readers, or something in between these
> extremes. Or just convenience -- why not reuse
> names he liked? Hmm!

There might be something to what you say. I cannot discern a connection between Mr. Vaughan from "The Shining Pyramid" and Helen Vaughan from "The Great God Pan". Nor can I discern a relationship between Mr. Vaughan's ancestor Meyrick Vaughan on the one hand, and Helen Vaughan's artist victim Arthur Meyrick on the other hand. I can discern no connection between Arthur Meyrick on the one hand, and Ambrose Meyrick and his father Nicholas Meyrick, on the other hand. Dr. Phillips (from "The Great God Pan") is evidently a different person from Dyson's friend Mr. Phillipps (from "The Three Impostors", "The Red Hand" and, perhaps, "The Lost Club"); note the different spelling.

But I still think, for instance, that Ambrose Meyrick from "The Secret Glory" is the same person as "Ambrose the recluse" from "The White People"; and as "the Hermit" from "Hieroglyphics".

Flipping through "The Secret Glory", I notice that a number of fictional texts are listed, including "The Olive of Athene" by "Davies"; a third "Davies" reference, also linked to pagan interests ("a daring but most brilliant book which promised to upset the whole established theory of mythology").



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 3 Mar 23 | 06:26PM by Platypus.

In any event, a tardy birthday acknowledgment to Machen, born on this day 160 years ago. Yet this evening I will hoist some Dragon's Milk stout to his memory (a drink I also open on Tolkien's birthday).

About halfway through "Folktales of Norway" ed. by Christiansen in the University of Chicago series, I've noted these as ones I particularly liked.

3.The plague as an old hag is ferried across a river
19.The Finn Messenger
21.The midnight Mass of the dead
22a.The human soul out wandering as a mouse
27.The tufte-folk on Sandflesa (mentioned here already)
34.The old troll and the handshake
37.The prospects of the huldre-folk for salvation
38.The origin of the huldre-folk: the huldre minister
40.The changeling betrays his age
47.Escape from the huldre-folk (rather, non-escape) – really intriguing
50.Married to a hulder
53a.The Christmas visitors and the tabby cat

After this book, which I'm not in a hurry to finish -- the next one may be "Folktales of Japan" ed. K. Seki.

I'm not reading through it in order. I'm jumping around, as I usually do with folk tales.

I've read other stories (from Britain/Ireland) about changelings betraying their age. This may bias me to some extent, but I cannot help thinking that someone messed up this version slightly, by improper foreshadowing the age and nature of the changeling. Typically, the protagonist is the mother, who knows that her true child was born only a few years ago. Hence, when the changeling is tricked into admitting that it was is decades or centuries old, it also betrays the fact that it is not her true child, but, in fact, a changeling.

But in this version, it is already taken for granted that the changeling is so old that no-one knows it true origins. Its mother is apparently out of the picture. The problem has less to do with uncertainty that it is a changeling, than that locals are afraid to kill it, and don't know how. The wise woman's trick has as much to do with telling the townspeople how to kill it, as with tricking it to betray its age.

Admittedly, this version is less disturbing than other versions, as it is less closely connected to child abuse or child-murder of those suspected of being changelings, which is a disturbing implication of this kind of legend.