Several interesting observations Platypus, and Sawfish.

However, I don't like "Xelucha". It may for its purposes contain many symbolic counterparts and references, but I still don't find it exiting. It is not a story. Is has no fantasy elements. As Lovecraft briefly said of it, it is merely noxious. And the horror in it, is a philosophical slap straight on the face of the reader; dismissing Life as an illusion, and reminding us of missed chances and regrets, that can't be repaired. It is a viciously pessimistic and miserable text. (I can well understand if he was an unsympathetic person, as biographical details hint at.) Even worse so than Poe; he at least brought in beautiful aesthetics to express his personal sorrows.

I find "Huguenin's Wife" and "The House of Sounds" (or possibly its early version "Vaila", which I have not yet read) much more enjoyable. They have memorable fantasy elements, and a gradual structural build up.

Quote:

Platypus
And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a no-no word then.

Actually, that is a different “bloody” from the “bloody” that was so scandalously used in Shaw’s Pygmalion, first performed in 1913.

“Bloody” in the sense of “covered in blood” was never problematic, but “bloody” as a swear word was, because it is a contraction of “by our Lady” -- just like “goodbye” is a contraction of “God be with you” -- and as such was considered blasphemous.

Quote:

Sawfish
Maldoror by the Comte de Lautréamont

Ha! I remember reading this on the train a few years ago and thinking, while in the middle of a particularly violent passage, that I was glad that mind readers don’t exist, because I would surely have gotten some attention from the authorities if someone could have looked into my mind at that moment…

> There are strange hints about the passages of
> time, too.


That is right, the hints about time are really weird. At one point he says: "At my age, with my physique, to walk staggery, like a man stricken! ... Truly, I can no more call myself a young man." Judging by these sentences, one would say he is still a young man but a moment later we come to know the letters of Cosmo “are turning sere!“ Which is really strange because the correspondence seems to be very old but, on the other hand, the young narrator is evidently familiar with the content of the letters which revives his memory so he can remember he was present in person at the bacchanal in the palaces of Cosmo which is mentioned in the letters. So I wonder how old the young man really was when he danced the minuet and waltz …

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I would guess that, it being 1896, he would
> not write "bloody sword", because "bloody" was a
> no-no word then.
>
>
> Actually, that is a different “bloody” from
> the “bloody” that was so scandalously used in
> Shaw’s Pygmalion, first performed in 1913.
>
> “Bloody” in the sense of “covered in
> blood” was never problematic, but “bloody”
> as a swear word was, [....]

I understand the distinction you are drawing, but I think you are being too rational about it. Taboos have a life of their own. And if you have to stop and think about a word before it becomes shocking and scandalous, then it's not going to be that shocking and scandalous. And in this case there was no actual literal blood on the bloody sword, which would add an additional layer of ambiguity to your fine distinction. Maybe he could have gotten away with "bloodstained sword", but I guess "wet sword" was both shorter and safer.

When in 1887 GIlbert & Sullivan released their gothic-themed comic opera "Ruddygore" there was some backlash against it because the name reminded certain hoity-toity people of that no-no word "bloody". Gilbert then changed the name to "Ruddigore" in an attempt to assuage the backlash. Never mind that there had never (previously) been a taboo against the word "ruddy". It had now been tarred by association, with some help from the logic that if "gore" is "ruddy" it is probably "bloody" too (but only in the sense that you just said was not taboo). "Ruddigore" was less successful than many previous Gilbert & Sullivan efforts, and I suspect this had far more to do with its artistic flaws than any taboo associations of its name. But nonetheless, you can bet that publishers and editors sat up and took notice and became maybe just a bit more paranoid.

I did a google book search for uses of the word "bloody" during the period 1891-1900. There were hits of course, mostly in dictionaries, and concordances, and other books of reference. But it seems that if a writer felt he had a choice, he would always use another word, or maybe just avoided the reference. For instance "bloodstained" was then being used in medical texts.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 6 Jun 21 | 09:33AM by Platypus.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > There are strange hints about the passages of
> > time, too.
>
>
> That is right, the hints about time are really
> weird. At one point he says: "At my age, with my
> physique, to walk staggery, like a man stricken!
> ... Truly, I can no more call myself a young man."
> Judging by these sentences, one would say he is
> still a young man but a moment later we come to
> know the letters of Cosmo “are turning sere!“
> Which is really strange because the correspondence
> seems to be very old but, on the other hand, the
> young narrator is evidently familiar with the
> content of the letters which revives his memory so
> he can remember he was present in person at the
> bacchanal in the palaces of Cosmo which is
> mentioned in the letters. So I wonder how old the
> young man really was when he danced the minuet and
> waltz …

For some reason, I really like this kind of induced uncertainty.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks, Platypus!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for the Ruddygore anecdote, Platypus -- most enlightening.

Quote:

Platypus
if you have to stop and think about a word before it becomes shocking and scandalous, then it's not going to be that shocking and scandalous.

That’s a really good point. I will have to think about it. It reminds me of those instances where people got in trouble for using the word “niggardly”.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Several interesting observations Platypus, and
> Sawfish.
>
> However, I don't like "Xelucha". It may for its
> purposes contain many symbolic counterparts and
> references, but I still don't find it exiting. It
> is not a story. Is has no fantasy elements. As
> Lovecraft briefly said of it, it is merely
> noxious. And the horror in it, is a philosophical
> slap straight on the face of the reader;
> dismissing Life as an illusion, and reminding us
> of missed chances and regrets, that can't be
> repaired. It is a viciously pessimistic and
> miserable text. (I can well understand if he was
> an unsympathetic person, as biographical details
> hint at.) Even worse so than Poe; he at least
> brought in beautiful aesthetics to express his
> personal sorrows.
>
> I find "Huguenin's Wife" and "The House of Sounds"
> (or possibly its early version "Vaila", which I
> have not yet read) much more enjoyable. They have
> memorable fantasy elements, and a gradual
> structural build up.


All told, Xelucha "feels" filthy, debased, deranged.

K, this is a lot the same impression ("feel") that I get from Ligotti, after reading a bit too much of him in too short a period.

Now, as if that wasn't bad enough, I also get the unsupported impression that he kinda *likes* it...

Last comment: does anyone sense a similarity in theme and execution between Xelucha and HPL's The Outsider?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> K, this is a lot the same impression ("feel") that
> I get from Ligotti, after reading a bit too much
> of him in too short a period.
>
> Now, as if that wasn't bad enough, I also get the
> unsupported impression that he kinda *likes*
> it...
>

He crossed my mind too. But Ligotti has imagination, aesthetics, and a sense of humor, in the midst of all the darkness.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I find "Huguenin's Wife" and "The House of Sounds"
> (or possibly its early version "Vaila", which I
> have not yet read) much more enjoyable. They have
> memorable fantasy elements, and a gradual
> structural build up.


"The House Of Sounds" (Vaila) is fantastic. I also have a soft spot for "The Place of Pain" with its cosmic horror elements and "The Case of Euphemia Raphash", a bizzare mystery - detective tale with a strange, unexpected twist at the end.

Minicthulhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "The House Of Sounds" (Vaila) is fantastic. I also
> have a soft spot for "The Place of Pain" with its
> cosmic horror elements and "The Case of Euphemia
> Raphash", a bizzare mystery - detective tale with
> a strange, unexpected twist at the end.


Thank you.

Quote: Synopsis [for "The Place of Pain"]: One of "two important tales assembled in" the 1935 collection, "about a natural water lens that shows horrors on the Moon"

Sounds intriguing! Available here.

Knygatin Wrote:
> However, I don't like "Xelucha". It may for its
> purposes contain many symbolic counterparts and
> references, but I still don't find it exiting. It
> is not a story. Is has no fantasy elements. As
> Lovecraft briefly said of it, it is merely
> noxious. And the horror in it, is a philosophical
> slap straight on the face of the reader;
> dismissing Life as an illusion, and reminding us
> of missed chances and regrets, that can't be
> repaired. It is a viciously pessimistic and
> miserable text.

I neither agree nor disagree. Before folks began this thread, I had read it two or three times and had gotten little out of it. I had no real fun with the story until I tried to figure it out for this thread. And since I'm not sure I succeeded in figuring it out, I'm reluctant to pass judgment.

But yeah. It certainly is unpleasant. I'm not sure what message it might have that would justify how intensely unpleasant it is. But then again, I don't exactly mind that he has made debauchery seem completely unappealing.

I had vaguely associated this story in my mind with Theophile Gautier's earlier tale La Morte Amoureuse. That was another morbid story with sexual themes, about a harlot/corpse/demon. And I did not really like that one either, to the extent I understood it. In fact, I think maybe I prefer Xelucha.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I neither agree nor disagree. Before folks began
> this thread, I had read it two or three times and
> had gotten little out of it. I had no real fun
> with the story until I tried to figure it out for
> this thread. And since I'm not sure I succeeded
> in figuring it out, I'm reluctant to pass
> judgment.
>
> But yeah. It certainly is unpleasant. I'm not
> sure what message it might have that would justify
> how intensely unpleasant it is. But then again, I
> don't exactly mind that he has made debauchery
> seem completely unappealing.
>

Perhaps "Xelucha" is a reflection of horrors tearing away at his own soul. I am not familiar with the biographical details, and probably don't want to be either, but I understand that he committed some atrocious debaucheries himself.