Sawfish Wrote:
> There are the clues in the text that the narrator
> may be Scottish...

The narrator certainly seems to be Scottish. The doctor refers to him English, but no doubt to a Spaniard, that term applies to anyone from Great Britain who speaks any kind of English.

All I am saying is that an Englishman or Scotsman can fight for a Spanish cause without any official involvement of the British government.

Platypus Wrote:
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> All I am saying is that an Englishman or Scotsman
> can fight for a Spanish cause without any official
> involvement of the British government.


Evidently that wasn't the case in this story, since the narrator was left behind by that "convoy." But RLS doesn't encourage us to try to pin things down about this, does he?

Dale Nelson Wrote:
> Evidently that wasn't the case in this story,
> since the narrator was left behind by that
> "convoy." But RLS doesn't encourage us to try to
> pin things down about this, does he?

Convoys are usually naval, but I have an idea that in this case it might be a supply convoy of pack mules and/or wagons. But if there was a well-known incident involving a lost convoy and English soldiers in Spain, I have not been able to find it. Nor does it say if those who left him for dead were English or Spanish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2 Aug 21 | 06:41PM by Platypus.

In "Olalla", The city in which the Protagonist is convalescing, which he leaves by the Eastern Gate before he ascends to the Sierra, is meant to be Seville, I guess.

The remarks about the protagonist not being a Christian are apparently autobiographic. Stevenson rejected Christianity and became something close to an atheist, much to the dismay of his mum and dad. It is curious how much religious content has crept into this story, apparently by way of a dream.

I'll have to read a Stevenson biography one of these days, perhaps the Furnas that I have, or one of the more recent ones, such as Ian Bell's. Ian Bell was the name of the author of a self-published (I think) small book on William Hope Hodgson, but something gave me the impression that these were not the same person.

[richarddalbyslibrary.com]

That's the Hodgson book I was thinking of. I was glad I bought one!

I just came across Lord Blayney's "Narrative of a Forced Journey through Spain and France as a Prisoner of War in the Years 1810 to 1814" (London, 1814), which describes the Battle of Fuengirola (1810) and its aftermath. At Fuengirola, Anglo-Spanish forces under the command of Blayney were defeated by French-Polish forces, and Blayney and about 200 of his men were taken prisoner. Subsequently, Blayney and other prisoners of war were marched through Spain as part of a French-Polish supply convoy. This convoy was attacked by Spanish forces/bandits, and Blayney mentions that a number of English prisoners-of-war escaped or were otherwise left behind during these attacks.

It is possible that these events inspired whatever Stevenson had in mind in "Olalla".

Intriguing detective work there.

You seem to be on the way to Robert Louis Stevenson’s “Olalla”: An Annotated Edition!

iDale Nelson Wrote:
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> Intriguing detective work there.
>
> You seem to be on the way to Robert Louis
> Stevenson’s “Olalla”: An Annotated Edition!


I have to add my appreciation to Dale's.

This sort of ancillary information always makes the thread more enjoyable, and I know damned well that I'd never be able to make these kinds of substantive contributions--don't even know how I'd go about doing it.

I feel like the fortunate recipient in situations like these.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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"Thrawn Janet"!

Stevenson has a creepy enough story to tell -- something that might have been dramatized as a Quiet, Please radio play. But he's up to more than that. He wants to evoke a bygone time and a place that, for most readers, will be remote, though the location is probably not in the Highlands. The dialect in which the story is told is essential for what Stevenson wants to accomplish. It would be interesting to hear this read by a native speaker with good narrator skills.

There's this:

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Aug 21 | 09:46PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Thrawn Janet"!
>
> Stevenson has a creepy enough story to tell --
> something that might have been dramatized as a
> Quiet, Please radio play. But he's up to more
> than that. He wants to evoke a bygone time and a
> place that, for most readers, will be remote,
> though the location is probably not in the
> Highlands. The dialect in which the story is told
> is essential for what Stevenson wants to
> accomplish. It would be interesting to hear this
> read by a native speaker with good narrator
> skills.
>
> There's this:
>
> [www.youtube.com]

I just completed Thrawn Janet last night.

It can be a fairly slow read due to the dialect, but after a while your internal "ear" gets into the rhythm, and you may find yourself chuckling at the way English-based vocabulary devolved into the anglicized pidgin-like speech used in stories like this.

As a side note, I can recall reading an Englishman's description of spoken Gaelic Scots as "sounding like a man choking on a fishbone."

There were really creepy moments, and I'm thinking that the heavy dialect tends to hint at what's going on, like an impressionistic brush stroke, allowing your own imagination to flesh it out from several distinctly unpleasant possibilities.

A good recommendation, Dale.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sympathetic to the idea that Lowland Scots, as used in this story, is a sister language of English, but I don't know what prospects of survival it really has, since languages change, and only something over a million people speak it as opposed to the enormous number of speakers of English -- obviously a Scots speaker will need English too. A writer might hesitate to write his poems and stories in Scots given the small audience available. But then Isaac Bashevis Singer wrote in Yiddish, now estimated at 600,000 speakers -- and his stories were reworked for English readers. Interesting to think of Yiddish and Scots as being both West Germanic languages!

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sympathetic to the idea that Lowland Scots, as
> used in this story, is a sister language of
> English, but I don't know what prospects of
> survival it really has, since languages change,
> and only something over a million people speak it
> as opposed to the enormous number of speakers of
> English -- obviously a Scots speaker will need
> English too. A writer might hesitate to write his
> poems and stories in Scots given the small
> audience available. But then Isaac Bashevis
> Singer wrote in Yiddish, now estimated at 600,000
> speakers -- and his stories were reworked for
> English readers. Interesting to think of Yiddish
> and Scots as being both West Germanic languages!

The evolution of Scots from middle english interests me because it seems likely that a lot of Scots (lowland Scottish) vocabulary must be influenced by Gaelic Scots, which is a Celtic language.

As a kid, like other kids of my generation, there was still a lot of "Hollywood" stock characters (cartoons, old films) who used accents designed to be recognizable by the entire English speaking audience of the era. I think the roots of these stage dialects were from vaudeville.

And it was used so much that most Americans assumed that they knew how various nationalities would speak, and the characteristic pronunciations they'd use. So it came as a sort of mild surprise to me as I grew older and maybe worked with German engineers, for example, and their accents were nothing like the Germans on Hogan's Heroes, or from the old WWII era cartoons that were still being played regularly on TV, after school. In fact, these German accents were probably closer to Yiddish than German.

Same with French accents. You'd gett he first signal that you were supposed to understand that the character was French, because the first thing they'd say was either "Oooh, la, la!", or "Sacre bleu!".

Of course, there'd be "Mama mia!" for Italian characters, and "Faith and begorra!" for Irishmen.

Same for the walrus on Woody Woodpecker, obviously a Scandinavian (Swede, probably), because he'd say, "Yompin' Yimminy, you dirty voodpecker!".

So all this is supposed to be funny, to cheer readers up this AM--and I for one think it is--but it shows how much our standard default perceptions are shaped by what amounts to constant marketing, whether purposeful and targeted, or otherwise.

I've met very few foreign nationals whose accented English sounds anything like the films stereotypes.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suppose much of the humor of the old "minstrel shows" was derived from the schtick about black Americans mangling standard English -- perhaps a variation on the even older "Mrs. Malaprop" thing.

But of course Stevenson, in "Thrawn Janet," is -- I take it -- not at all aiming for comic effect but for authentic Scots to help make the story convincing.

This reminds me of Lovecraft's famous rural New Englanders. Did Lovecraft's spellings of "now" as "naow" and so on actually reflect what a speaker of English pronounced in a more "standard" way would have thought he was hearing if he ventured into deeply rural areas? For that matter, how much of Massachusetts was deeply rural by Lovecraft's day? A sociological question.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But of course Stevenson, in "Thrawn Janet," is --
> I take it -- not at all aiming for comic effect
> but for authentic Scots to help make the story
> convincing.

Agreed. Stevenson's use of Scots is hard to distinguish from that of George MacDonald in his novels, except that MacDonald tended to reserve his use of Scots to portray local dialogue, and tended to write the rest of his text in standard English. Stevenson tries to capture an entire tale as if it had been told by a local Scots storyteller.

> This reminds me of Lovecraft's famous rural New
> Englanders. Did Lovecraft's spellings of "now" as
> "naow" and so on actually reflect what a speaker
> of English pronounced in a more "standard" way
> would have thought he was hearing if he ventured
> into deeply rural areas?

Use of phonetic spelling to record dialect was an accepted technique during this period. And I think that is all that HPL was consciously attempting.

But I sometimes suspect an element of mockery, or at least carelessness, in HPL's portrait of local dialect. I understand the difference between "naow" and "now", but I sometimes wonder what is the difference in pronunciation between "God" and "Gawd"; and I sometimes wonder if HPL is trying to portray pronunciation, or merely imply that that the speaker does not know how to spell. Certainly HPL is guilty of a level of class snobbery that is largely absent from the novels of George MacDonald.

Platypus -- you've read some of MacDonald's realistic novels? I thought I was the only one! Sir Gibbie is overdue for a rereading. (Btw, I believe Mark Twain was quite an admirer of that one.)

I've read several of the realistic novels, & have a few on hand that I haven't read yet. Annals of a Quiet Neighbourhood is the only one of them that I've reread, unless one counts The Portent among the realistic novels.

As for the romances/fantasy novels -- I esteem Lilith as one of a handful of the greatest masterpieces in the form.