Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sympathetic to the idea that Lowland Scots, as
> used in this story, is a sister language of
> English, but I don't know what prospects of
> survival it really has, since languages change,
> and only something over a million people speak it
> as opposed to the enormous number of speakers of
> English -- obviously a Scots speaker will need
> English too.

Well, the radio and the TV are gradually eliminating local dialects, and this has been going on for some time. But I cannot regard Scots as a separate language from standard English. I have tried, with minimal success for much effort, to study real foreign languages -- such as Latin, French, and Spanish -- and I know the difference. Learning enough to manage Scots involves vastly more success, for vastly less effort.

Maybe I'd be overstating it if I said that Scots was merely English with a few non-standard pronunciations and a few non-standard words. There are actually quite alot of non-standard pronunciations and quite alot of non-standard words. But still, the difference between Scots and French is like night and day.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sympathetic to the idea that Lowland Scots,
> as
> > used in this story, is a sister language of
> > English, but I don't know what prospects of
> > survival it really has, since languages change,
> > and only something over a million people speak
> it
> > as opposed to the enormous number of speakers
> of
> > English -- obviously a Scots speaker will need
> > English too.
>
> Well, the radio and the TV are gradually
> eliminating local dialects, and this has been
> going on for some time. But I cannot regard Scots
> as a separate language from standard English. I
> have tried, with minimal success for much effort,
> to study real foreign languages -- such as Latin,
> French, and Spanish -- and I know the difference.
> Learning enough to manage Scots involves vastly
> more success, for vastly less effort.
>
> Maybe I'd be overstating it if I said that Scots
> was merely English with a few non-standard
> pronunciations and a few non-standard words.
> There are actually quite alot of non-standard
> pronunciations and quite alot of non-standard
> words. But still, the difference between Scots
> and French is like night and day.

There's Scots, which I take to be a very heavily modified form of English, but English nonetheless, and there's Garlic Scots, which is not English in any sense.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Garlic Scots isn't available in the small North Dakota town where I live. To get that kind of pizza, with lumps of haggis and sliced neeps added to a rank garlic sauce, you'd have to live in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, or LA. I can only imagine. It must be delicious.

I think Lowland Scots reflects the Norse incursion into northern England and Scotland, but I'm rusty on that linguistic stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Aug 21 | 03:48PM by Dale Nelson.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Garlic Scots isn't available in the small North
> Dakota town where I live. To get that kind of
> pizza, with lumps of haggis and sliced neeps added
> to a rank garlic sauce, you'd have to live in
> Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, or LA. I can
> only imagine. It must be delicious.

HAH!

>
> I think Lowland Scots reflects the Norse incursion
> into northern England and Scotland, but I'm rusty
> on that linguistic stuff.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus -- you've read some of MacDonald's
> realistic novels?

I've read three: Heather and Snow, Warlock o'Glenwarlock, and St. George and St. Michael. I enjoyed all 3. The first 2 are set in Scotland and feature dialogue in Scots English. The third is a historical novel set during the English Civil War.

I also read The Portent, which for whatever reason made no impression upon me.

I'll have to try Sir Gibbie, since you particularly recommend it. Sadly, it is not among the ancient volumes I inherited.

Sawfish Wrote:
> There's Scots, which I take to be a very heavily
> modified form of English, but English nonetheless,
> and there's Garlic Scots, which is not English in
> any sense.

Garlic jokes aside, Dale did use the phrase "Lowland Scots", which I understood to refer to the English dialect; since evidently Scottish Gaelic is more likely to be spoken by Highlanders.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> > There's Scots, which I take to be a very
> heavily
> > modified form of English, but English
> nonetheless,
> > and there's Garlic Scots, which is not English
> in
> > any sense.
>
> Garlic jokes aside, Dale did use the phrase
> "Lowland Scots", which I understood to refer to
> the English dialect;

Yes, understood.

> since evidently Scottish
> Gaelic is more likely to be spoken by Highlanders.

It's really fun to look at a dialect map of Scotland and from it try to intuit cultural/ethnic migrations. Much of the speculation (mine, anyhow) would likely be wrong, but still it's fun, then try to find out definitively what actually happened.

E.g., [vividmaps.com]

Looking at this map leads one to think that Scandinavian coastal incursions, from Norway, probably, account for the Norse areas. One might expect similar incursions into Ireland, as well.

Then look at the Gaelic area. It's like Ireland, but which was the original source for the other?

Then there is the case of the Scots Irish, and off the top of my head, I'm thinking that this group was perhaps an incursion by political policy, to provide a more English friendly foothold in Ireland, apparently becoming the main constituency in Ulster.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Platypus -- you've read some of MacDonald's
> > realistic novels?
>
> I've read three: Heather and Snow, Warlock
> o'Glenwarlock, and St. George and St. Michael. I
> enjoyed all 3. The first 2 are set in Scotland
> and feature dialogue in Scots English. The third
> is a historical novel set during the English Civil
> War.
>
> I also read The Portent, which for whatever reason
> made no impression upon me.
>
> I'll have to try Sir Gibbie, since you
> particularly recommend it. Sadly, it is not among
> the ancient volumes I inherited.

That's great -- inheriting ancient GM volumes! Back in the late 1980s, I bought a number of reading copy-quality old editions of GM novels at affordable prices, & I do like those copies, even though several of them are rather plain.

The GM novels, as opposed to romances/fantasies that I've read, are ("old" copies marked with *):

David Elginbrod*
Robert Falconer*
Malcolm*
Marquis of Lossie*
Alec Forbes of Howglen
Sir Gibbie
A Rough Shaking*
Wilfrid Cumbermede (the first 50 pages or so are wonderful)*
Castle Warlock*
Ranald Bannerman’s Boyhood
Annals of a Quiet Neighbourhood
St. George & St. Michael*

At the Back of the North Wind is a combination of realistic novel and fantasy, which I've read twice and expect to read again. The next MacDonald novel I'll read will likely be either a rereading of Sir Gibbie or a first completed reading of What's Mine's Mine(*).

I had to check my records. It seems it's been over 15 years since I read one of the realistic novels through, but I've read quite a few of them since my first one back in 1975. I'd already become a confirmed admirer of his fantasy by then.

In "Thrawn Janet" I would like to understand the sequence of events of the story, if I'm framing this concern correctly. What I'm after is the apparent cause of Janet's condition, and the nature of any constraints placed up her or the black man (Satan). I had to work pretty hard with the dialect and feel I missed cause/effect pairings.

So as I recall, Janet became the house servant for the pastor, against all advice of the congregation, and this was because it was common knowledge that she had some kind of bargain with the devil. Is this correct?

So then he made her swear aloud that she had nothing to do with the devil, which she did while making gruesome faces.

Later she had a stroke, or as the congregation thought, was clearly possessed.

Later the pastor caught sight of the black man, who made his way to the manse.

Then the pastor performed some kind of exorcism on Janet, and it turned out she was apparently dead for quite some time.

Then the black left for good, and the pastor became the same nervous character as he was described at the beginning of the tale.

Is this more-or-less the basic situation and series of events?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I take it, without referring to the text of the story, that

Janet was a social outcast because of having had an illicit relationship that the village was aware of; but the pastor, perhaps out of compassion, hired her as housekeeper. He required her publicly to renounce the devil and she did so -- completely hypocritically. At that point she was stricken and her neck was twisted or even broken. After this, she was still alive till she hanged herself. But then her body still walked, animated by an evil spirit till it was exorcised.

Mebbe I'll go back to the text!

Sawfish Wrote:
> So as I recall, Janet became the house servant for
> the pastor, against all advice of the
> congregation, and this was because it was common
> knowledge that she had some kind of bargain with
> the devil. Is this correct?

That's the crux of it, yes. Other details (an out of wedlock child; her avoidance of communion; her occasionally-vindictive tongue) are basically trivia, except that they explain, in the mind of the pastor, why her unpopularity has caused her to be wrongly accused of witchcraft.

> So then he made her swear aloud that she had
> nothing to do with the devil, which she did while
> making gruesome faces.

Right. She swore she was innocent of all charges except the out-of-wedlock child.

> Later she had a stroke, or as the congregation
> thought, was clearly possessed.

Specifically, the villagers thought she was dead and her corpse possessed. The pastor thinks their cruelty has caused her to have a stroke. The local storyteller is basically on the side of the villagers.

If we assume that the villagers are correct, and she has died at this point, there are hints in the story that she may have died by hanging.

> Later the pastor caught sight of the black man,
> who made his way to the manse.

Right. And upon seeing Janet after entering the house the pastor feels the same cold grue he felt when seeing the black man. The implication is that the devil is now inside Janet's body.

Despite this, the storyteller clearly believes that Janet's corpse has been dead and possessed ever since her supposed stroke, perhaps by a lesser evil spirit.

> Then the pastor performed some kind of exorcism on
> Janet, and it turned out she was apparently dead
> for quite some time.

After some surreal encounters with the Janet-Thing in the house, the feverish pastor takes a candle and flees outside into the storm. The Janet-Thing follows him. As the Janet-Thing approaches, the wind blows out his candle, leaving the pastor in darkness. The pastor calls on God's aid. A lightning bolt strikes the Janet-Thing, reducing it to ashes. The local storyteller's explanation for this was that Janet had been dead and demon-haunted for so long that her corpse burnt easily.

> Then the black left for good, and the pastor
> became the same nervous character as he was
> described at the beginning of the tale.

The "rational explanation" for all this, is that Janet is an innocent stroke victim, and that the pastor became ill and had some fever-dream visions that night. But, if so, what became of the real Janet?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 7 Aug 21 | 07:01PM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
MUCH SNIPPED...

> The "rational explanation" for all this, is that
> Janet is an innocent stroke victim, and that the
> pastor became ill and had some fever-dream visions
> that night. But, if so, what became of the real
> Janet?


Thanks, Platypus. This was very helpful.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Are we ready for a third story? What about “The Body Snatcher”? It’s available at Project Gutenberg online, in Tales and Fanasies, by RLS.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are we ready for a third story? What about “The
> Body Snatcher”? It’s available at Project
> Gutenberg online, in Tales and Fanasies, by RLS.


Sounds fine to me.

I'm ready for a break from Plato's Laws.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are we ready for a third story? What about “The
> Body Snatcher”? It’s available at Project
> Gutenberg online, in Tales and Fanasies, by RLS.

This is a story where, for me, the horror of the body-snatchers themselves exceeds the horror of the ghostly climax.