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The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:02AM
Ok, here anything goes, and I am starting with a comment I lifted from another thread:


Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you feel that they [The Residents] may well have affected David
> Lynch's visual sensibilities?
>

Their song BLUE ROSEBUDS seems to be close, and it also has the word "velvet" in the lyrics.
I find the section in italics, which comes as a reply to the first section, to be inspired absurd cruelty. I am curious, how well does it pass for poetry (not technically necessarily, but imaginatively)?


BLUE ROSEBUDS

I love you and cause I do
My sky has changed
From grey to blue.
But blue's not just
A color of the rainbow.
It's shade is not a hazy hue
But pure and hard
My blue sky blue
It's like a Roman candle
Coming rosebuds.

"Your words are empty hollow bleatings
Of a mental crutch.
They're open festered indigestion
With a velvet touch.
An ether eating Eskimo
Would gag upon your sight,
Convulsed into oblivion
From laughter or from fright.

A coma with a sweet aroma
Is your only dream,
Malignant with the misconception
That a grunt can gleam.
Your lichen covered corpuscles
Are filthy to my fist.
Infection is your finest flower
Mildewed in the mist."


I love you and cause I do
My sky has changed
From grey to blue.
But blue's not just
A color of the rainbow.
It's shade is not a hazy hue
But pure and hard
My blue sky blue
It's like a Roman candle
Coming rosebuds.
Blue Rosebuds.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:48AM
BU-URRP! Oops, excuse me.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:49AM
HEY! Stick to the topic, will ya!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:50AM
I am.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:50AM
Oh! Right!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:51AM
In the context of the song (or poem), who or what is the persona who speaks the italicized reply?

I need to get my head around what *might* be going on, then maybe I can look at it more closely.

I mean, at first glance it seems like a legitimate poetic structure, to my inexpert eye sensibilities.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 12:04PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the context of the song (or poem), who or what
> is the persona who speaks the italicized reply?

The first section is a man speaking romantic nonsense to a woman. The italicized reply is the whining voice of the woman. That is how I interpret the song.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 12:47PM
Well then, it's really *nasty*, isn't it?

Why the repetition of the first stanza as he final stanza, after the nasty commentary, do you think?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 03:20PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well then, it's really *nasty*, isn't it?
>
> Why the repetition of the first stanza as he final
> stanza, after the nasty commentary, do you think?


Because he is a stolid blockhead who doesn't get her message, too stubborn and self-occupied to care or even listen. :/

Anyway, I think the stanzas in italics have a rich and imaginative vocabulary. I find it alluring in a horrid way.

By the way, about the "Eskimo" reference: The Residents made another LP record called ESKIMO, which is an acoustic landscapes/musical audio storytelling of Eskimo culture; including walrus hunt, arctic hysteria psychosis with soul disembodied in the dead of winter darkness, evil spirits, and a shaman Angakok sorcerer conjuring with a spell escaping from his lips a giant sea snake that rises above the billows and wiggle before the assembled crowd on the shore with its head in the clouds. Not so far separated in tone from CAS in Hyperborea actually.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 26 August, 2020 10:59PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well then, it's really *nasty*, isn't it?
> >
> > Why the repetition of the first stanza as he final
> > stanza, after the nasty commentary, do you think?
>
>
>
> Because he is a stolid blockhead who doesn't get
> her message, too stubborn and self-occupied to
> care or even listen. :/
>

But on second thought, after listening to the song again, no, I would say that is not the case at all. He admires her brilliant biting wit so much, compared to his own lame ability, that he becomes even more obsessed and enamored of her, despite her cruelty and rejection. He repeats his fawning words, because he is under her spell.

Not an uncommon situation at all. For example, it can be seen in the first lines of CAS's "The Enchantress of Sylaire".

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 26 August, 2020 11:25PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He repeats his fawning words, because he is under her spell.

BLUE ROSEBUDS

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2020 10:41AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He repeats his fawning words, because he is
> under her spell.
>
> BLUE ROSEBUDS

Thanks for including the link, K; I'd never actually heard anything they did.

I have two responses:

1) The Residents must be what's termed "an acquired taste", right?

2) It'll be a long time before we hear another band's cover of "Blue Rosebuds".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2020 11:36AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for including the link, K; I'd never
> actually heard anything they did.
>
> I have two responses:
>
> 1) The Residents must be what's termed "an
> acquired taste", right?
>
> 2) It'll be a long time before we hear another
> band's cover of "Blue Rosebuds".

1. Yes, of course. It is not regular rock'n'roll. It is a different mindset and a different approach for the listener. It is avant-garde, it is humor and fun, and it is for a bizarre aesthetic experience. It is not music you dance to. And it is not something you put on the record player when you have invited over a girlfriend. Must all music be pleasant? I might ask the same question of movies, or literature. I had school mates in my late teens who were both horrified and ridiculing me for listening to this, implying that I was sick. Screw them. I think that was simply a mediocre lack of imagination and humor, an overly anxious need to be conformed, only willing to do what is socially approved.

The more you listen to it, the more you will hear that this music really swings in appealing rhythm, with powerful contrasts of sounds. It is primal in its force. Screw social conformity.

2. I don't know about that, other bands have made covers of their songs. But their style is very difficult to imitate. They are unique and genius.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2020 11:56AM
This is a piece of popular music that really appeals to me. Recorded in maybe 1969, I think:


[www.youtube.com]


Let me now if you connected with it, or not, please.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 12:58PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a piece of popular music that really
> appeals to me. Recorded in maybe 1969, I think:
>
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
>
> Let me now if you connected with it, or not,
> please.


That is a video of the female Mexican volleyball team. The background music sounds to me newer than 1969... Sounds like popular feel-good music, smooth, streaming out of cars street-cruising down the boulevard, music that panders to either love seeking, social connection, good times, or personal success, or something else I can't quite grasp. Nothing provocative about it, sounds inoffensive. Spiritually sparse. I don't dislike it. But not swept away by it either, ... perhaps would have, if I had grown up in a different social environment.

I generally prefer more aggressive guitar-driven music, different forms of metal, classic 1950s-70s rock'n'roll, Neil Young, or classical music (Mozart, Bach, ...), experimental (The Residents), mystical like Mike Oldfield, Clannad, Ravi Shankar, 1920s jazz (Bix Beiderbecke) and other historical forms that take me away from modern society.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 01:19PM
Sorry. Bad link.

This one:

[www.youtube.com]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 02:27PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry. Bad link.
>


WHAT!? :(


Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot more interesting.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - JAPANESE CULTURE
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 03:06PM
From previous thread...


Quote:
Knygatin
Passive-aggressiveness is part of every civilized culture. Otherwise our society would have looked like a battlefield out of R. E. Howard's Conan. In European culture the intellectual debate has evolved to sidestep violence. The more repressed communication in Japanese culture can have some negative neurotic side effects, for sooner or later energy has to go somewhere. Akira Kurosawa's films examine this, and, I am sure, so do also many modern Japanese films that I have not seen.

I think it also goes into some negative areas, like porno, etc.

That there is a lot of apparent pressure is evident, and there are many safety valves.

I am not sure that the tradition Japanese view of the emperor being a literal descendant of the sun (god), and the Japanese people are hence related, but one step removed, to the sun as well--and all this implies--can survive in an increasingly cosmopolitan and interlinked world. This was workable in isolation (and to a degree Japan seems to be drifting toward isolation, relative to the 60s-90s) but the defeat in WWII changed all that.


Quote:
Knygatin
Europeans have much respect for the sophistication of Japanese culture, especially the samurai tradition, and of course technology, have made a great impression. Likewise Japanese are very curious about Western culture. There is a polite but dedicated fanbase in Japan for almost every little obscure underground cult band or artist we have (and most of us don't even know about). The Japanese are very enthusiastic. But this extreme open-mindedness also make them vulnerable and run the risk of threatening Japanese culture, from destructive liberal capitalist influences flooding the country.

Not sure I'd consider the Japanese "open-minded" so much as seeking a solid ideal to use as a template. With the unmasking of the emperor as a privileged common man, the central mystique of Shinto was broken into a million pieces. It was as if the Pope was forced by circumstance to state, publicly, that he had never had any sign, whatsoever, from the deity. A whole lot of Catholics would be devastated, but they had at least their underlying ethnic cultures to bolster them--the Irish cpuld go back to drinking, the Mexicans could go back to worshipping Xiuhpilli, or whoever--but the post war Japanese did not have even this. They had to confront the idea that there was nothing special about them, as their mythology implied, in the bigger picture, and as insular as they tended to be, this came a a shock.

I think that they then emulated the habits/customs of the victors--who, face it, were extremely kind and generous in the context of history and of Japanese experience as victors, themselves--sort of a large scale Stockholm Syndrome. They were already about halfway there, owing to the foreign policy of the Meiji era, which emphasized westernization and modernization.

So traditional Japanese culture can semi-survive in an isolated society that does not need to compare itself to the rest of the world, but outside of this space, those Japanese who are living and have lived in a more open environment, really aren't much like those still imbued with the culture. These "transplants", like my wife, retain the *core* values, like loyalty, industry, honor, collective effort, respect for elders, but balk at the levels of male domination and social stratification of many Japanese nationals.

As always, these are only my opinions and could be wrong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Aug 20 | 03:08PM by Sawfish.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 03:07PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry. Bad link.
> >
>
>
> WHAT!? :(
>
>
> Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot more
> interesting.


I should hope so...! ;^)

What did you think?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 12:08AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sorry. Bad link.
> > >
> >
> >
> > WHAT!? :(
> >
> >
> > Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot more
> > interesting.
>
>
> I should hope so...! ;^)
>
> What did you think?


I don't know. Sounds jazzy New Yorkish, or east coast big city music. Someone else should be better suited to comment that music. It was better varied than the first link you posted, which I made an effort to analyze.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - JAPANESE CULTURE
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 05:11AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From previous thread...
>

Thank you for the further clarifications about Japanese society.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 10:54AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sawfish Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Sorry. Bad link.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > WHAT!? :(
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot
> more
> > > interesting.
> >
> >
> > I should hope so...! ;^)
> >
> > What did you think?
>
>
> I don't know. Sounds jazzy New Yorkish, or east
> coast big city music. Someone else should be
> better suited to comment that music. It was better
> varied than the first link you posted, which I
> made an effort to analyze.

First time I heard it, it grabbed--it was so different from anything else on popular radio (yep, was being played on the same stations that would play Janis Joplin, et al).

I've come to view it as an episodic glimpse into a living, self-induced hell, done to a sort of dirge.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 06:55AM
I know that this thread is really intimidating. It looks like a big black hole among the other threads.

But anyway. One thing I don't like with e-books, is that many of them don't respect the author's original grammatical structure. They put an empty space in between every new paragraph, which I find very annoying. Then you don't know where the author actually intended the text to be divided into a new section. Perhaps you guys don't mind so much? Perhaps the spaces are meant to make the reading easier on the eyes?

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 10:25AM
Funnily enough that app I mentioned - Calibre - allows you to reconfigure your ebooks. One option is removing the space between paragraphs (something I've always found really annoying) which in turn means they automatically get indented. I always assumed indented paragraphs (sans a space in between) were a European thing, whereas block paragraphs were an American thing? But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common feature of work emails over here).

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 11:40AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that this thread is really intimidating. It
> looks like a big black hole among the other
> threads.
>
> But anyway. One thing I don't like with e-books,
> is that many of them don't respect the author's
> original grammatical structure. They put an empty
> space in between every new paragraph, which I find
> very annoying. Then you don't know where the
> author actually intended the text to be divided
> into a new section. Perhaps you guys don't mind so
> much? Perhaps the spaces are meant to make the
> reading easier on the eyes?

Definitely there are shortcomings, but I view e-readers like a confirmed drinker would view a small hip flask: not the optimum, nor enough, but can get you by in places where a full bottle would be--AHEM!--inappropriate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 11:45AM
When there is a space between paragraphs, it means that there is either a change of scene or jump in time. It is a bit like new chapter, but less marked. If I understand correctly.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 11:52AM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funnily enough that app I mentioned - Calibre -
> allows you to reconfigure your ebooks. One option
> is removing the space between paragraphs
> (something I've always found really annoying)
> which in turn means they automatically get
> indented. I always assumed indented paragraphs
> (sans a space in between) were a European thing,
> whereas block paragraphs were an American thing?
> But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common
> feature of work emails over here).

Hi, Cathbad. Calibre sounds interesting. I would like to ask some specific questions about it and to construct a couple of use scenarios for both .mobi and .epub files. While I'm happy enough with e-readers in general, I'm not happy about file management of the content--easy portability, etc.

I don't really care all that much about original spacing, etc. I think it's possible to butcher the spacing, and I see a lot of this, and apparently incorrect lettering from OCR scans of originals in the Project Gutenberg files, but I'm so happy to be able to have the content, gratis, that I'll blow right past it.

Besides, sadly, it appears that final proofing for hardcopy publications is slipping significantly...I see crud in hardback all the time now...

Do you have time to respond to the questions?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 12:07PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When there is a space between paragraphs, it means
> that there is either a change of scene or jump in
> time. It is a bit like new chapter, but less
> marked. If I understand correctly.

It suggests a discontinuity of some kind, to me, although I've never seen a written explanation for this sort of use of whatespace, or any "rules" for its use.

Do you recognize a difference in intent between a three dot (or asterisk) break and extra space? I hadn't thought about it before, but a three dot break always indicates a hiatus is *always* a passage of time, I would suspect, and in that sense is a more forceful or explicit version of extra whitespace used for the same purpose.

I'm not a big fan of using punctuation to place ambiguity in a reader's mind for artistic effect; to me, punctuation is best as a clarifier. I would prefer to see intended ambiguity introduced thru word choice--as in Seer of the Cycles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 12:30PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always assumed indented paragraphs
> (sans a space in between) were a European thing,
> whereas block paragraphs were an American thing?
> But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common
> feature of work emails over here).

Every paperback and hardcover I have read, both English and American, every book, have indented paragraphs (except the very first paragraph in a novel or short story). If there wasn't indenture in conversation text, for example, it would be impossible to follow who is saying what.

And an e-book is after all supposed to represent a book, not the structure of email communication.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:08PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do you recognize a difference in intent between a
> three dot (or asterisk) break and extra space? I
> hadn't thought about it before, but a three dot
> break always indicates a hiatus is *always* a
> passage of time, I would suspect, and in that
> sense is a more forceful or explicit version of
> extra whitespace used for the same purpose.
>

This is my understanding:

The three dots in a sentence, marks a brief stall, to let what has been said before in the sentence take root before continuing, or to make an extra mental effort to add a last thought that relates to it, and so complete the sentence. It imitates hesitation halt in real thinking or conversation.

The — sign is similar to the three dots, but marks that you are saying the last thought with strong emphasis. You want to make a strong point with the last words.

The asterisk marks a reminder of a side-thought concerning something that is related to the present text, that you would like to mention in passing, but which may be too long or distractive, so you place it at the bottom of the page instead.

The extra space means end of scene, next paragraph beginning something new in the story. Or a jump in time, for example from bedtime till next morning.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:08PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cathbad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I always assumed indented paragraphs
> > (sans a space in between) were a European
> thing,
> > whereas block paragraphs were an American
> thing?
> > But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common
> > feature of work emails over here).
>
> Every paperback and hardcover I have read, both
> English and American, every book, have indented
> paragraphs (except the very first paragraph in a
> novel or short story). If there wasn't indenture
> in conversation text, for example, it would be
> impossible to follow who is saying what.

What are your feelings about unconventional punctuation that some authors seem to insist on?

Me, I've never seen that it *adds* anything, but at the same time, after I got used to it, it didn't actually impair my enjoyment, either.

Seems to me like a non-issue, perhaps a statement of ego as much as aesthetics.

>
> And an e-book is after all supposed to represent a
> book, not the structure of email communication.

It's a compromise; it's not an either/or. A lot like mass-publication softbacks as compared to premium hardbacks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:28PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> What are your feelings about unconventional
> punctuation that some authors seem to insist on?
>
> Me, I've never seen that it *adds* anything, but
> at the same time, after I got used to it, it
> didn't actually impair my enjoyment, either.
>

Actually, I don't know what that is. It doesn't ring a bell for me. Something connected with modern writers perhaps? I don't read much of modern writers.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:47PM
Cormac McCarthy is a good example. He uses no quotation marks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 02:51PM
A dash (instead of quotation marks) is a very 19th century European thing. Maybe French? The Irish writer James Joyce wrote all his books using a dash instead of quotation marks, with the result that his many imitators do the same. Nowadays, I think it's meant to indicate to the reader that this is a serious 'literary' work. Personally I don't like it, but (as with anything) you get used to it.

Browsing the internet suggests block paragraphs may have become more popular due to how text is formatted by computers/computer applications, ie, most blogs and websites use block paragraphs rather than indentation - this website being a case in point!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 03:44PM
McCarthy uses no marks to indicate direct speech; it's all contextual. I don't think he accomplishes anything by this, but it's easier to get used to than I had thought.

Still, to me it comes off as gimmicky.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 03:45PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry that I failed to replay earlier, Knygatin.
> To my idiosyncratic ideas of politeness, that's
> rude, and I don't want to be rude.
>
> If you want used non-backlit, in Kindle format,
> this is a decent choice:
>

Ha ha, nothing rude there, and no obligations to me. ;) Thanks a lot for all the information about e-readers you gave me in the Weird Folklore thread. If I can't make up my mind about which one to settle for from that, I never will. Not a 100% sure though I really want an e-reader. As mentioned before, I enjoy reading digital pdf books (all epub and mobi can be converted too) on my computer screen, which is good size. When travelling, I usually bring a paperback, or light book, along; I can smell the paper too.


>
> ... two things make
> e-readers worth having: you can get many free
> books online, just spontaneously, and I'm a real
> tightwad--as I small kid, I thought Scrooge McDuck
> was cool, far cooler than Superman, Sgt. Rock,
> etc...
>

Then you're not a bibliophile, I guess? Loving books as objects in themselves. From time to time I have payed a lot for certain books I really want to own. Or sacrificed time, searching for them.


For those who are loosing sight, I'd also recommend audio books. Not all are good, but if you find a good narrator it is a real pleasure. In ways, even better than reading.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 05:04PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry that I failed to replay earlier,
> Knygatin.
> > To my idiosyncratic ideas of politeness, that's
> > rude, and I don't want to be rude.
> >
> > If you want used non-backlit, in Kindle format,
> > this is a decent choice:
> >
>
> Ha ha, nothing rude there, and no obligations to
> me. ;) Thanks a lot for all the information about
> e-readers you gave me in the Weird Folklore
> thread. If I can't make up my mind about which one
> to settle for from that, I never will. Not a 100%
> sure though I really want an e-reader. As
> mentioned before, I enjoy reading digital pdf
> books (all epub and mobi can be converted too) on
> my computer screen, which is good size. When
> travelling, I usually bring a paperback, or light
> book, along; I can smell the paper too.
>
>
> >
> > ... two things make
> > e-readers worth having: you can get many free
> > books online, just spontaneously, and I'm a
> real
> > tightwad--as I small kid, I thought Scrooge
> McDuck
> > was cool, far cooler than Superman, Sgt. Rock,
> > etc...
> >
>
> Then you're not a bibliophile, I guess? Loving
> books as objects in themselves.

Yes, that's correct, and it occurred to me that for biliophiles, e-readers aenot nearly as attractive.

> From time to time
> I have payed a lot for certain books I really want
> to own. Or sacrificed time, searching for them.
>
>
> For those who are loosing sight, I'd also
> recommend audio books. Not all are good, but if
> you find a good narrator it is a real pleasure. In
> ways, even better than reading.

Thanks!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - ED HANDLES
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 12:58AM
To past the time, I'd like to ask the derivation of the members' posting names--their "handles".

Mine is simple...

I saw the movie Das Boot in the theater when it came out. I was strangely taken with the image of the laughing, playful sawfish on the conning tower of the U-96, the titular submarine. What got me about it was that it was rollicking, humorous, and in the film there was virtually nothing in the lives of the crew, or the function of the boat, that was in any conceivable way lighthearted or jolly, and the bitter irony was something I liked, so...

[www.themodellingnews.com]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 02:32AM
Thank you. I thought 'Sawfish' was a humorous affirmation. Like, that you can effectively saw apart other posters' arguments. It is a very energetic image.

Knygatin is a misspelling, it should have been Knygathin, but was too late to correct after I had registered. It is the forename of Knygathin Zhaum, a favorite character, from the story "The Testament of Athammaus". His body is very plastic and formable, even his nose and face twist and stretch. It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind to remain flexible.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 05:08AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind
> to remain flexible.

And invulnerable, like Knygathin Zhaum.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 10:24AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you. I thought 'Sawfish' was a humorous
> affirmation. Like, that you can effectively saw
> apart other posters' arguments. It is a very
> energetic image.
>
> Knygatin is a misspelling, it should have been
> Knygathin, but was too late to correct after I had
> registered. It is the forename of Knygathin Zhaum,
> a favorite character, from the story "The
> Testament of Athammaus". His body is very plastic
> and formable, even his nose and face twist and
> stretch. It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind
> to remain flexible.

Hah! I should have recognized it!

I *really* liked his character, what we saw of it. He was, truly, A Force of Nature(tm) more so than a conventional character. A lot of what happened made me laugh...the futility of the legal system in dealing with him, his apparent passivity while in captivity, his outrageous selection of victims after each "execution", the mass stampede out of Commorium (a sort of urban flight to the Hyperborean suburbs? ;^) ).

Naw, I don't think about "winning arguments": our exchanges are to me pleasant and collegial. That's why I'm here. I also have opinions and usually have spend some time formulating them, so I may diagree, sometimes, but really, I want more to get my *ideas* right (logically sound) and have no silly notion that I have all the answers, because life has taught me that no one does.

To that end, I'd like to think that I'm flexible enough to modify my opinions--after all, I want to "get it right", not *be* right...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 10:28AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind
> > to remain flexible.
>
> And invulnerable, like Knygathin Zhaum.

HAH!

...and outrageous!!! ;^)

It was as if he headed up a Pleistocene outlaw motorcycle gang!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 10:40AM
I knew the source of Knygatin's name, but didn't realize he placed so much meaning to it. Great stuff! And ever since I learned about Sawfish's Hawaiian experience, I merely assumed his name was based on an old Polynesian tradition. Sawfishes were regarded as sacred animals. Wasn't expecting the actual inspiration!

My username is derived from the passive protagonist of a story CAS never finished, which can be seen here: [www.eldritchdark.com]

I'm hardly an old man like the narrator, but in two decades I will be, and I've been mentally preparing myself for it. I like the sound of the name, which reminds me of a fire slowly easing into a smolder after a huge conflagration. Something peaceful but energized, much like the passive yet energetic character who sees and learns some weird things.

I don't try to win arguments much myself, rather just sit on my rocking chair and pass the time whittling away at something!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 02:26PM
Sometimes I use "Extollager." This is from the label the Kentish villagers applied, around 1820, to Samuel Palmer and his fellow young artists. Palmer is my favorite artist (I don't say he is the world's greatest artist!). You can find examples of his work online. To oversimplify, it falls into three periods:

1.His visionary period
2.His relatively conventional period, in which he painted many landscapes
3.The period of his late etchings after Milton and Vergil

The book to get hold of is Geoffrey Grigson's Samuel Palmer: The Visionary Years. The Yale book Samuel Palmer: Shadows on the Wall is good for color reproductions of his work.

[www.goodreads.com]

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 03:23PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Samuel Palmer is my favorite artist (I don't say he is
> the world's greatest artist!).


I love his painting of a shepherd dozing in the sunset, surrounded by his sheep. It is the cover of my John Keats collection. If there is a heaven on Earth, that way of life is it.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 07:17PM
Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm hardly an old man like the narrator, but in
> two decades I will be

I would have guessed, from your mental style of approach and good penetrativeness, that you are born in the 80s or early 90s, but your experience seems to tell you must be older.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 07:27PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I'm hardly an old man like the narrator, but in
> > two decades I will be
>
> I would have guessed, from your mental style of
> approach and good penetrativeness, that you are
> born in the 80s or early 90s, but your experience
> seems to tell you must be older.


That's because I'm not like most people. I wanted to avoid mentioning this but I spent much of my life as a socially isolated slave of my Asian family. I only learned how to get out of it very late in life. The primary reason my wife became my ex-wife is because my growth was stunted for so long, but I don't want to talk about that here, friendly as you all are.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 09:01PM
Cathbad was a druid from an old Irish Epic - the Tain. The story has a huge cast, which means no head-scratching when you have to decide on a name for your new avatar!

Samuel Palmer's work always looked amazingly modern to me - not unlike the sort of graphic art that was common back in the Sixties and Seventies.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 11:16PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Samuel Palmer's work always looked amazingly
> modern to me - not unlike the sort of graphic art
> that was common back in the Sixties and Seventies.

My mind reels here. Do you mean those posters that sometimes used black velvet for the blacks, and very bright colours in-between? This makes me miss the 70s so much, that I want to go back in a time machine now immediately.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 9 September, 2020 05:10AM
LOL. I was actually thinking in terms of his black and white stuff, as it reminds me a lot of certain British illustrators - Charles Keeping, for example

[thekeepinggallery.wordpress.com]

[commons.wikimedia.org]

Sure the subject matter is very different, but the technique is kind of similar - basically, pen-and-ink, with heavy black outlines enclosing a finer network of lines - the suit of mail in the case of the viking, the leaves of the oak in the case of 'Early Morning'.

My guess is I probably saw Keeping's stuff first and when I saw Palmer's work, assumed they were the same generation? I remember being surprised at the similarities (which don't seem so pronounced now, in fairness).

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general = F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 9 September, 2020 10:05PM
I've been thinking today of some of the authors I've read, and it occurred to me that there are guys I'm *supposed* to like (or their work, rather), according to my old profs, but did not, and do not.

Fitzgerald is one of them. Never could get my head around *why* The Great Gatsby is thought to be special.

Any other EDers have similar experiences with well-respected authors/works?

On the other hand, Stephen Crane completely blows me away...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - photo
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2020 06:58PM
Looking thru the photos of CAS on this site, looking at some of the rural backgrounds, were like a trip back into my youth.

Of particular nostalgic interest is this one:

[www.eldritchdark.com]

On the desk in front of him is something many older people who lived their youth in CA would recognize instantly: an abalone shell.

These were *all over the place* so far as availability. In the 1950 and 60s, these shells were still readily available on the beach, in various stages of being eroded by wave action, and many people were still able to harvest large ones off the rocks of the Central CA coast at low tides. I, myself, in the early 70s, was able to find small ones the size of silver dollars secreted in rock cracks. These were too small to take. I could still find the occasional medium-sized shell on secluded beaches. This was in San Luis Obispo county, just south of Monterey county.

Just outside Santa Barbara, along US 101, was an abalone processing plant, with a pile of these shells the size of a large haystack. These were still being commercially being taken from the Channel Islands, just off the coast, into the 70s.

Now, none are available in the wild. It's less over-harvesting (although that was certainly a factor) than understanding that the abundance in the 19th to mid-20th C was the result of a confluence of unique environmental factors.

Based on the shell and the likely timeframe ascertained by his apparent age, this photo would have been from when he lived in Pacific Grove, which was very near a rocky area that likely would have once had lots and lots of abalone.

Times change; nothing stays the same...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - photo
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2020 07:37PM
I have one of those shells too, given me perhaps by grandparents from California. The iridescence intrigued me as a youngster.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - photo
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2020 10:29PM
When we first moved up here (OR) in the late 80s, we liked to go from PDX to Manzanita, on the coast.

There was this little side road almost at the coast we could take, and it took us past on old house, the poured cement foundation walls had shells like this embedded in the cement, as a sort of rustic decoration. This shows that there were certainly quite a few up here, too.

The house has been gone for maybe 20 years now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 October, 2020 03:29AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAS feels that the best use of what we *do* have
> intellectually is thru creativity; I differ with
> this since I have little-to-no creativity within
> me. I use my puny intellect to stay out of
> trouble.
>
> That's about it. I am really good at staying out
> of all sorts of "trouble": financial,
> interpersonal, professional, etc.
>

I moved this response here from the big poetry thread.

I meant creativity in a broad sense, not just in art or literature. I believe every living thing is born with a measure of it; it is our right. We are a microcosm reflecting the greater Cosmos.

Surely you have been able to compose a pleasant dinner, furnish your home, or solve a convoluted problem at work, or in some other way rearranged molecules to make reality better. Then, I think, in some sense you have used your intellect creatively.

Staying out of "trouble" could also be a creative activity I guess, like inventing ways or using the body smoothly, to avoid being detected if there has been excess, or else mastering frugality in every path of life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 7 Oct 20 | 03:37AM by Knygatin.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 7 October, 2020 05:19AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I meant creativity in a broad sense, not just in
> art or literature. I believe every living thing is
> born with a measure of it;
>

I think Arthur Machen wrote that even the stones are alive. Then creativity is in all material. It is inherent in the atoms.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 October, 2020 12:25PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> I think Arthur Machen wrote that even the stones
> are alive. Then creativity is in all material. It
> is inherent in the atoms.


Ah, the all abiding silence is music to my ears. Perhaps the enormity of this revelation I have exposed has left everyone speechless. :D

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: The Sojourner of Worlds (IP Logged)
Date: 8 October, 2020 06:21PM
Since we're talking usernames, mine comes from a piece of concept art for the video game Torment: Tides of Numenera.

[www.artstation.com]

Just liked the sound of it, to be honest.

Anyway, I saw in Forum Settings a reference to private messages, but how do you even send a private message here?

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 31 October, 2020 05:58PM
Here is some more ear-candy from The Residents. (Warning, only for those ready to take the plunge into the unconventional and socially outrageous.) This is not music to make you feel good or harmonious. It is weird aural landscapes mixed with humour. There is rhythm in it for sure, it even rocks, but it is done the wrong way. Over time it grows on you. It has been compared to worms crawling in the back of your head, or the irresistible pleasure of picking at a scab that has not healed.

All songs are from the record DUCK STAB.

Constantinople
Possibly The Residents' most famous song. Archetypical of their rebellious sound.

Sinister Exaggerator
Atmospheric and spooky.

Bach Is Dead
Humorous squeaking violin.

Birthday Boy
I am not exactly sure what, but something with this birthday party goes horribly wrong.
Some very fine counterpoint between the song and the traditional Happy Birthday tune.

Laughing Song
Drawling madness.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: DrWho42 (IP Logged)
Date: 31 October, 2020 06:31PM
i love the residents!

🎩
👁️

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2021 05:39PM
Baby boomers. Pluto in Leo. And Neptune in Libra. There is the whole issue in a nutshell. No more need be said.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2021 07:34PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baby boomers. Pluto in Leo. And Neptune in Libra.
> There is the whole issue in a nutshell. No more
> need be said.


Says it all, in *many* ways...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Kipling (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2021 06:34PM
I liked some of the other records from that company better; the first Residents album was unmelodic beyond endurance to this listener, other than one track with characteristic reverb-tinged vocal repetition ("you care for France and we care for You"). Their intentional anonymity was in keeping with the record label's mysterioso image.

jkh

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2021 08:33PM
Veering off, just completed "Berlin Alexanderplatz" and wonder if anyone else here has read it.

It is a very ambitious aesthetic effort that mostly works. It's unusual enough for me to want to discuss it, bit I sure don't know where to try to find someone who has read something as recondite as I think this is. I had been aware that Rainer Werner Fassbinder had done a series of it for German TV in the 80s, I think, but didn't know that it was taken from a serious piece of literature.

This is at least as good as Dreiser, or Crane's Maggie, a Girl of the Streets. Lots more ambitious in structure, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2021 09:19PM
I heard of Berlin Alexanderplatz many years ago, but never read or watched, myself.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2021 10:06PM
That's where I was until about 3 weeks ago when I got the book in part because I was currently reading some translated German stuff and had read Hans Fallada's The Drinker in comparative lit back in college. He was in the Weimar time range, also.

Oh, well...

A lot of this stuff has a unique "feel" to it and I wonder if it's Teutonic cultural sensibilities, just as the French seem to have a sort of distinct cultural outlook, or simply te translations, or what.

Again, feels like Dreiser.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2021 10:26PM
I’ve focused on British and (in translation) Russian literature, and Icelandic sagas, Hawthorne, etc. I’ve read, as far as German originals (in translation) go, Hoffmann, Adalbert Stifter (Biedermeier), Sebald. I’ve read the Divine Comedy and Manzoni’s The Betrothed and that’s about it for Italian....

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2021 10:32PM
Do you see a cultural ethos that seems to have any consistent association with the various cultures represented by these authors?

I'm thinking it's either one of two things: a) a very subtle, but consistent set of signals, or b) I'm fooling myself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 12:39AM
Well, I suppose none of them is simply trying to be all Clever and Ironic. I just don’t have an interest in that kind of thing. (No use, in fantasy fiction, for Cabell.)

They’re all pretty much free of the stuff about equality and gender and diversity that is so boring now. That is mostly a dead end, I’m thinking. It’s all about “transformation,” not transaction, by which I mean politics for grownups, the necessary business of getting along with people in an imperfect world, etc.

The authors I indicated have connection with the Western world.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 08:51AM
I tried out David Foster Wallace. I couldn't stick with any of his stuff, and it was perhaps because he was being all Clever and Ironic.

Pynchon, too, is to me nearly unreadable, but for different reasons I think. I tried really hard on Gravity's Rainbow, but could not make that difficult connection. Conversely, with Berlin Alexanderplatz, there was some level of difficulty in getting into the flow of it, but I somehow stuck it through, and now I keep thinking about it, and this is one telltale sign of both a good book and a good film, for me. It's got sn underlying melodramatic tale--something like characters in Threepenny Opera--but there's an integrity and honesty that does not alter the plot for a characteristic melodramatic outcome--which one kinda expects as the resolution, and yet the actual resolution feels exactly correct and also the most likely. Plus, on consideration, confirms a valuable insight on the nature of life.

You know, it just now dawns on me that it's harder to categorize why it is an author loses you than the reverse, simply because you cannot bear to read enough of it to begin to properly analyze it.

I'm going to try giving the Russians a go. Can you suggest a place to start?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 09:56AM
I read some Tolstoy years ago - ‘War &. Peace’, his stories and half of ‘Anna Karenina’. Maybe start on the stories? I thought they were pretty good. Not just Tolstoy. Pushkin. Gogol. Plus there’s a book by Turgenev called ‘Smoke’ which is well worth checking out.

I think a lot of 19th century literature has a strong narrative thread, which is a big part of its appeal in our post-modern times - e.g. Middlemarch is basically a soap, albeit a good one.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 10:35AM
Thanks, Cathbad!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 11:14AM
Sawfish asked, "I'm going to try giving the Russians a go. Can you suggest a place to start?"

When I taught a course in Russian lit in translation, I assigned a short story and a novella at the start, giving a sense of the land. These were

1.Turgenev's "Bezhin Meadow"
[www.ibiblio.org]

2.Chekhov's "The Steppe"
[www.online-literature.com]

Long works from which I selected assignments included the following (not all of them in one semester!), always in the translations by Pevear and Volokhonsky:

Tolstoy: War and Peace; Anna Karenina
If one is wary of tackling either of those two long novels, I'd recommend the novel The Coassacks and the novellas "Father Sergius," "The Devil," "Master and Man," etc.

Dostoevsky: Demons, The Brothers Karamazov

I might also have chosen Crime and Punishment once.

Gogol: Dead Souls -- I used the translation of Pevear & Volokhonsky, but I understand that the Guerney & Fusso version (Yale) is regarded as superior by at least one authority; that is the one I will almost certainly read next time. Despite the title, this is, in fact, a masterpiece of comic writing. It is one of very few literary works that has had me also weeping and gasping with mirth! When I assigned Gogol, I believe he came before Tolstoy or Dostoevsky.

I typically ended the course with Solovyov's "Tale of the Antichrist," from Three Conversations, which is a particularly good thing to read after the Dostoevsky novel. Solovyov was something of a disciple of Dostoevsky, and his "Tale" is interesting as a sort of companion piece to Dostoevsky's "Grand Inquisitor" in The Brothers Karamazov.
[archive.org]
That's not the translation I used, but it's what I found online.

For a modern Russian work, I would assign Eugene Vodoloazkin's recent fantasy/historical novel Laurus.


Other Russian works I can recommend include Aksakov's A Russian Gentleman and (perhaps even more) Years of Childhood, as translated by Duff; Paustovsky's Story of a Life: Childhood and Schooldays, translated by Harari and Duncan; Skrebitski's In the Forest and on the Marsh; Arseniev's Dersu the Trapper.

I warmly recommend these Russian movies: Solaris; Russian Ark; The Return; The Island (Ostrov).

[en.wikipedia.org])
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org])
[en.wikipedia.org])

There are others I like but these are ones to start with.

I love Serge Schmemann's book Echoes of a Native Land. He is an award-winning American author who went to Russia to seek his roots.

I rarely recommend TV or cinematic adaptations, but I do like the circa 1978 British miniseries of Crime and Punishment with John Hurt as Raskolnikov. Hurt is actually too old for the part but aside from that is pretty great. The adaptation isn't 100% faithful but it's worth watching.

There are several Russian miniseries that are good to watch after you have read the books. The subtitles can be pretty bad.

[www.amazon.com]

[www.amazon.com]

Finally, I loved Ian Frazier's Travels in Siberia.


Dale



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 23 Jan 21 | 11:29AM by Dale Nelson.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 12:02PM
Excellent reading/viewing list, Dale. Thanks!

I'll bet some of this is public domain, and I can likely download it. Otherwise, I'll look for ebook versions at the library.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 12:17PM
It just dawned on me and needs exploration, of course.

When thinking of discernable "cultural influences or characteristics", as I had raised in passing earlier in this thread, I started thinking: how might I characterize German writers, French writers, Jewish writers, British writers, etc?

Now this relies a good deal on broad generalization, and we can certainly find exceptions, but I've read some translations of modern French writers, not a lot of them, but enough to form an impression that they do two things that seem to set them apart, in terms of narrative sensibilities: the central characters, who are often a stand-in for the authors (as it often is for many western cultures) are inordinately self-absorbed, and yet will forgive themselves of anything, it seems.

They are remarkably guilt-free, whereas the few Germans I've read are very far from guilt free--seem to recognize and attempt to adhere to a common standard of community behavior-- even pre-war writers, and I mention this is to separate the influence of post WWII contrition.

Then it hit me: the French seem to be a lot like the Jewish writers in their self-absorption, but are largely free of guilt and angst, for the most part. There almost seems a sort of fatalism,or at least stoicism about events as they occur.

The French writers seem to have a lot in common with the cats I've had.

Thoughts/opinions?

Far too generalized, and disgustingly insensitive? ;^)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 12:46PM
Sawfish wrote, "I'll bet some of this is public domain, and I can likely download it. Otherwise, I'll look for ebook versions at the library."

Yep -- I've indicated sources for some public domain items. However, in my experience, reading the Pevear & Volokhonsky translations has enhanced my experience of Dostoevsky. I'd read Demons before (as The Possessed), and Brothers Karamazov and Crime & Punishment in other translations. I much prefer the P&V. For Tolstoy, if the Aylmer Maude translations are available in the public domain, those might do fine instead of P&V. Indeed, I think their translations of Tolstoy have come in for some criticism from one credible source (as well as getting a lot of praise). You should be able to get used copies of any of these from abebooks.com or the like at decent prices.

By the way, Vodolazkin's The Aviator was really good too, though I'd say start with Laurus.

I liked the Strugatsky brothers' sf Roadside Picnic and mean to read it again one of these days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23 Jan 21 | 12:50PM by Dale Nelson.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 12:48PM
For me, "insufficient data" -- as I often have to admit to the missus -- to say much about French and German literature -- French especially.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 01:20PM
I don't feel I have enough to be definitive, either, and yet...

In a way, it's like the "beauty thread" a few days ago: it is something I definitely feel, but grapple with the attributes.

It's difficult for me to let something go if I intuitively get a sense of a seemingly unmistakable characteristic. For the beauty debate, I could *feel* that your direction and ultimate intent, as far as I got it, had validity, but I become obsessed with characterizing things in detail (a foul materialist, you see), at their constituent parts, and I was really getting nowhere on "beauty"--even though I felt *something* that might be termed "beauty" certainly exists.

Now the same for this "cultural traits" stuff but it's much less slippery because it's possible to grab a handhold on the general topic because I think its constituent parts are clearer.

For example, in modern French fiction, very often there is a sort of searching for the individual's philosophic place in the universe, and this seldom included the idea of a theological framework; it can come off as a sort of moral malaise that is inevitable--and the voice knows this. This quest is fairly consistent in the modern French writers I've read, and so much alike that I want to extrapolate for sake of any initial default position (so as to clearly identify it for testing) that it does indeed exist and is a fairly common concern in modern French cultural thought.

Now compare this to modern Irish fiction. I don't see the quest in the same way, at all, and I believe that much more of Irish writing is informed by a cultural adhesion to their perceived nation/race--their "Irishness" informs their idea of who/what they are, and hence how they think.

I read once where the idea is that the French are symbolic parricides--with regicide being a sort of national parricide--they know it deeply, and it is reflected not as guilt, but as independence from a father figure--but now lacking a central mooring. Recognized authority is missing, and indeed, not even possible.

Really, they come off as a bunch of Hamlets, not that he was a parricide, but in the way they morosely seek their place in the universe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 01:57PM
What you're saying about French and Irish contemporary fiction sounds plausible to me, but my opinion would be worth almost nothing.

You said, Sawfish, "For the beauty debate, I could *feel* that your direction and ultimate intent, as far as I got it, had validity, but I become obsessed with characterizing things in detail (a foul materialist, you see), at their constituent parts" -- I read that and wondered if scrutiny for "constituent parts" is something that doesn't work with the beautiful. Putting it oversimply, is the beautiful something that must be contemplated as a whole -- however imperfect and partial our awareness of it -- before we focus on parts? If I examine the parts first, will I ever attain to an apprehension of the beautiful? Now I think, given the imperfection of one's attention, sensibility, etc. that one will often begin with a partial and imperfect awareness of the whole, but that's not the same thing as trying to build up logically from parts to whole.

That, by the way, might relate to my conviction that, often, a literary work must be reread before one can say one has rightly read it. Conversely, there are works of literary craft that can be fun to read but that have little to offer in a second reading unless enough time has passed that one has forgotten a lot. I'd cite Stephen King's 11/22/63 as an example of this. I like that book, for the most part, but when I read it the second time (after a lapse of several years), I didn't have the sense that there was much there that I hadn't got the first time. The things I liked the first time, I still liked, and things I didn't, ditto. But the first time I read the Dostoevsky novels that I mentioned earlier today, they were less engaging than on subsequent readings.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 02:08PM
I bought the first two Calvin & Hobbes albums, and enjoyed them a lot. I also used to read and collect all of the Fawcett or Coronet pocket books with Peanuts (Charlie Brown, Snoopy and friends). Obviously they are related and closely comparable, both very well drawn. Calvin & Hobbes perhaps more technically conspicuous. But I think I prefer Peanuts. The humour is warmer and has more subtle psychological depth.

But I would not associate either of them with Beauty. Elegance of line, perhaps, extreme skill and sureness of drawing hand, humour and sharp insight. But too stylized, mannered, and flat, to have anything of beauty. I think Beauty requires more complexity, and a certain animated asymmetry inside the harmonious proportions, to make it come alive, like in Nature.

The Far Side by Gary Larson is another great one, suitable for those who appreciate the weird. It always reminds me of Lovecraft. I have only seen a small part, but my single favorite frame shows a couple on the beach, the man sitting down by the sea, and his fat trash wife standing a bit further up, back to him, looking after other people and more mundane things. Meanwhile a fish in a small bowl with wheels rolls up from the sea, circles the man to observe him, and drives back down again, before he can collect his wits to call on his wife. One can imagine her reaction, when he later starts telling, and reassuring her.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 02:14PM
More on the Russian topic -- take a look at Russian Folk Tales, illustrated by Ivan Bilibin, translated by Robert Chandler (Shambhala/ Random House 1980), if you can.

In case I'd be introducing someone to new things --

Borodin's "In the Steppes of Central Asia" is a lovely tone poem/symphonic fantasy
Tchaikovsky's Serenade Melancolique
Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, orchestrated by Ravel
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring

Not be be missed!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 02:20PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What you're saying about French and Irish
> contemporary fiction sounds plausible to me, but
> my opinion would be worth almost nothing.

Well, we differ, but so what? :^)

>
> You said, Sawfish, "For the beauty debate, I could
> *feel* that your direction and ultimate intent, as
> far as I got it, had validity, but I become
> obsessed with characterizing things in detail (a
> foul materialist, you see), at their constituent
> parts" -- I read that and wondered if scrutiny for
> "constituent parts" is something that doesn't work
> with the beautiful. Putting it oversimply, is the
> beautiful something that must be contemplated as a
> whole -- however imperfect and partial our
> awareness of it -- before we focus on parts? If I
> examine the parts first, will I ever attain to an
> apprehension of the beautiful? Now I think, given
> the imperfection of one's attention, sensibility,
> etc. that one will often begin with a partial and
> imperfect awareness of the whole, but that's not
> the same thing as trying to build up logically
> from parts to whole.

Nope, that's backwards from how I'd do it.

I would perceive something as beautiful, then address the attributes that *might* account for why I found it beautiful.

Without something like that, it would be very hard, if not impossible, to discuss objects of beauty unless all parties discussing a "beautiful" object had seen it or otherwise directly experienced it.

Otherwise, if party A says a certain Titian painting is beautiful, but party B has never seen it, to accept it as beautiful, or even that it *might* be beautiful, requires a gigantic leap of faith by party B in favor of party A.

Many, myself included, are not prepared to take that leap.

>
> That, by the way, might relate to my conviction
> that, often, a literary work must be reread before
> one can say one has rightly read it. Conversely,
> there are works of literary craft that can be fun
> to read but that have little to offer in a second
> reading unless enough time has passed that one has
> forgotten a lot.

Agreed.

There are many works I've read in excess of 10 times. The Tin Drum probably 3 times; Journey to the End of the Night 3 times; Catch-22 possibly 15 times. Some earlier Vonnegut; much of Hemingway multiple times, except for when he slid over to being too maudlin.

Etc.

> I'd cite Stephen King's 11/22/63
> as an example of this. I like that book, for the
> most part, but when I read it the second time
> (after a lapse of several years), I didn't have
> the sense that there was much there that I hadn't
> got the first time. The things I liked the first
> time, I still liked, and things I didn't, ditto.
> But the first time I read the Dostoevsky novels
> that I mentioned earlier today, they were less
> engaging than on subsequent readings.

Good point.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 23 Jan 21 | 02:30PM by Sawfish.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 02:27PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I bought the first two Calvin & Hobbes albums, and
> enjoyed them a lot. I also used to read and
> collect all of the Fawcett or Coronet pocket books
> with Peanuts (Charlie Brown, Snoopy and friends).
> Obviously they are related and closely comparable,
> both very well drawn. Calvin & Hobbes perhaps more
> technically conspicuous. But I think I prefer
> Peanuts. The humour is warmer and has more subtle
> psychological depth.

What? You didn't like when Calvin and his little girl neighbor were playing doctor and she complained to him (the doctor) of an injured fingeranil and he replied:

"You need a pre-frontal lobotomy.

"I'll get a saw..."

;^)

>
> But I would not associate either of them with
> Beauty. Elegance of line, perhaps, extreme skill
> and sureness of drawing hand, humour and sharp
> insight. But too stylized, mannered, and flat, to
> have anything of beauty. I think Beauty requires
> more complexity,

Possible, for sure.

Do the Cubists appeal?

> and a certain animated asymmetry
> inside the harmonious proportions, to make it come
> alive, like in Nature.
>
> The Far Side by Gary Larson is another great one,
> suitable for those who appreciate the weird. It
> always reminds me of Lovecraft. I have only seen a
> small part, but my single favorite frame shows a
> couple on the beach, the man sitting down by the
> sea, and his fat trash wife standing a bit further
> up, back to him, looking after other people and
> more mundane things. Meanwhile a fish in a small
> bowl with wheels rolls up from the sea, circles
> the man to observe him, and drives back down
> again, before he can collect his wits to call on
> his wife. One can imagine her reaction, when he
> later starts telling, and reassuring her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 03:06PM
I wonder how much of the French mindset is due to WWII? (Vichy France, etc).

The Irish have an almost unhealthy preoccupation with ‘Irishness’, maybe because they share a common language with two much larger and more dominant cultures (ie, the UK and the US) leading to inevitable - and constant - comparisons.

Stephen King's 11/22/63. I actually think the earlier part of this book - the bit about the local butcher who the mc knew would end up killing his family - was a lot more interesting than the main act. Plus the basic concept would have worked just as well as a short story.

Roadside Picnic is the only work by the Strugatsky brothers that I read! There’s another work by them that’s popular and that I only heard of recently - Hard to be a God.

Has anybody read The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem?

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 03:27PM
Sawfish wrote, "if party A says a certain Titian painting is beautiful, but party B has never seen it, to accept it as beautiful, or even that it *might* be beautiful, requires a gigantic leap of faith by party B in favor of party A."

Not if B already has reason to believe that A possesses knowledge and taste. For example, I've been tracking down and reading things that C. S. Lewis enjoyed (e.g. from mentions in his published letters), and this has led me to many literary works I might not have tried, or tried so soon, or even have ever heard of, and that I have enjoyed a lot. In fact, I write a column about Lewis's reading for the New York C. S. Lewis Society, which has had over 50 entries -- and that column was started after several articles on Lewis's reading that had several works per article. A good example is Margaret Kennedy's comic novel The Feast. I'm confident in saying that, apart from Lewis's praise in a letter, I might never have heard of it otherwise, or ever had reason to try it. Well, I got it from a library and loved it, and then bought a used copy in dustwrapper, knowing I will want to read it again. I realize that I'm straying a bit from the topic of the Beautiful, specifically, here. So I'll take something from the pictorial arts instead. I already loved Samuel Palmer's early and late art. I read that he was an admirer of Claude Lorrain, so I looked into his painting, & liked that much as well. I approached the latter already expecting to appreciate it.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 03:54PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish wrote, "if party A says a certain Titian
> painting is beautiful, but party B has never seen
> it, to accept it as beautiful, or even that it
> *might* be beautiful, requires a gigantic leap of
> faith by party B in favor of party A."
>
> Not if B already has reason to believe that A
> possesses knowledge and taste.

No, to me this surrenders judgement to an external arbiter of taste. I don't by default do that.

At most, if I have had personal experience of an individual and they have impressed me with a combination of valid and understated knowledge and personal integrity, at most I'd think that what they said has a better than even chance of being something I *might* agree with.

Frankly, I would expect everyone I deal with to do the same with me and my stated positions: maybe I've got it right, but best to double check.

> For example, I've
> been tracking down and reading things that C. S.
> Lewis enjoyed (e.g. from mentions in his published
> letters), and this has led me to many literary
> works I might not have tried, or tried so soon, or
> even have ever heard of, and that I have enjoyed a
> lot. In fact, I write a column about Lewis's
> reading for the New York C. S. Lewis Society,
> which has had over 50 entries -- and that column
> was started after several articles on Lewis's
> reading that had several works per article. A
> good example is Margaret Kennedy's comic novel The
> Feast. I'm confident in saying that, apart from
> Lewis's praise in a letter, I might never have
> heard of it otherwise, or ever had reason to try
> it. Well, I got it from a library and loved it,

First, expressing praising a novel is *far* from ascribing beauty to an object.

However, it was important to actually experience the novel before you concurred, right?

That's essentially what I'm saying: no judgement without personal experience of it.

Now, further consideration: did Lewis say "why" he thought highly of it, or was did he just express admiration for it, but with no further qualifications or information? If the former, he gave you concrete reason why it might be worthy; if the latter, you are relying on his judgement, alone.


> and then bought a used copy in dustwrapper,
> knowing I will want to read it again. I realize
> that I'm straying a bit from the topic of the
> Beautiful, specifically, here. So I'll take
> something from the pictorial arts instead. I
> already loved Samuel Palmer's early and late art.
> I read that he was an admirer of Claude Lorrain,
> so I looked into his painting, & liked that much
> as well. I approached the latter already
> expecting to appreciate it.

Your list of referrals on Russian lit are something like this, Dale. You are a qualified student of the same stuff I enjoy, and I expect that these will be worthwhile--much better than selecting someone at random from the Indianapolis phone directory (thanks, David Letterman!) and asking them for recommendations.

But gosh, we're different in so many ways that I doubt that I'll like even 50% of the stuff you recommended.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 03:59PM
I'm not saying much more than this:

1.If I have reason already to think that A possesses knowledge and taste, I am likely to consider the work of art or literature, and
2.if I don't like it, I may figure the problem is likely to be with me; that I am too narrow in my tastes, etc. However,
3.I don't automatically assume that A is infallible.

I owe an enormous debt to people, mostly writers, who have led me to books, music, art that I might not otherwise have known of or that I might somehow have thought was "not for me" for no good reason. At my present age, in my mid-60s, indebtedness to such people is one of the chief facts of my life of which I am aware.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2021 05:23PM
Makes sense, Dale.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 07:26AM
Kipling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I liked some of the other records from that
> company better;

I like Mark of the Mole a lot. God in Three Persons is another masterpiece, but very, very creepy. Later in their career The Residents made some more "normal sounding" records, for example the jazzy, funky Tweedles!, that musically evolve around the subject theme of a would-be clown who ruins his own career because he is so sexually obsessed, being completely controlled by his penis. Great music, but also very creepy.


> the first Residents album was unmelodic beyond endurance to this listener, other
> than one track with characteristic reverb-tinged
> vocal repetition ("you care for France and we care
> for You").

I don't recognize that line. Was it from Meet the Residents?

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 07:34AM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Has anybody read The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem?


I have it on pdf, but have not read it. I have only read his Solaris, one of the best science fiction books ever, tremendously bizarre weird phenomena on display in it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24 Jan 21 | 07:47AM by Knygatin.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 01:03PM
The Cyberiad is very different from Solaris (to the extent that it's hard to believe the same man wrote both books) - ie, a series of humorous, philosophical parables charting the rivalry between two robots, one always trying to be more inventive than the other.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 01:32PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Cyberiad is very different from Solaris (to
> the extent that it's hard to believe the same man
> wrote both books) - ie, a series of humorous,
> philosophical parables charting the rivalry
> between two robots, one always trying to be more
> inventive than the other.

You liked it? I have a few others on pdf: Eden, The Invincible, and The Star Diaries. Perhaps you are enthusiastic about one or more of these?

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 24 January, 2021 02:53PM
I've actually only - I think - around three Lem books. Solaris, The Cyberiad, and a collection of mock reviews (in essence, interesting ideas that Lem decided not to follow through on). I read Solaris a long time ago, but would say that liking Solaris doesn't necessarily mean you'll like The Cyberiad, which is blackly comic. Personally, I loved it.



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