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The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:02AM
Ok, here anything goes, and I am starting with a comment I lifted from another thread:


Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you feel that they [The Residents] may well have affected David
> Lynch's visual sensibilities?
>

Their song BLUE ROSEBUDS seems to be close, and it also has the word "velvet" in the lyrics.
I find the section in italics, which comes as a reply to the first section, to be inspired absurd cruelty. I am curious, how well does it pass for poetry (not technically necessarily, but imaginatively)?


BLUE ROSEBUDS

I love you and cause I do
My sky has changed
From grey to blue.
But blue's not just
A color of the rainbow.
It's shade is not a hazy hue
But pure and hard
My blue sky blue
It's like a Roman candle
Coming rosebuds.

"Your words are empty hollow bleatings
Of a mental crutch.
They're open festered indigestion
With a velvet touch.
An ether eating Eskimo
Would gag upon your sight,
Convulsed into oblivion
From laughter or from fright.

A coma with a sweet aroma
Is your only dream,
Malignant with the misconception
That a grunt can gleam.
Your lichen covered corpuscles
Are filthy to my fist.
Infection is your finest flower
Mildewed in the mist."


I love you and cause I do
My sky has changed
From grey to blue.
But blue's not just
A color of the rainbow.
It's shade is not a hazy hue
But pure and hard
My blue sky blue
It's like a Roman candle
Coming rosebuds.
Blue Rosebuds.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:48AM
BU-URRP! Oops, excuse me.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:49AM
HEY! Stick to the topic, will ya!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:50AM
I am.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:50AM
Oh! Right!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 11:51AM
In the context of the song (or poem), who or what is the persona who speaks the italicized reply?

I need to get my head around what *might* be going on, then maybe I can look at it more closely.

I mean, at first glance it seems like a legitimate poetic structure, to my inexpert eye sensibilities.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 12:04PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the context of the song (or poem), who or what
> is the persona who speaks the italicized reply?

The first section is a man speaking romantic nonsense to a woman. The italicized reply is the whining voice of the woman. That is how I interpret the song.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 12:47PM
Well then, it's really *nasty*, isn't it?

Why the repetition of the first stanza as he final stanza, after the nasty commentary, do you think?

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 23 August, 2020 03:20PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well then, it's really *nasty*, isn't it?
>
> Why the repetition of the first stanza as he final
> stanza, after the nasty commentary, do you think?


Because he is a stolid blockhead who doesn't get her message, too stubborn and self-occupied to care or even listen. :/

Anyway, I think the stanzas in italics have a rich and imaginative vocabulary. I find it alluring in a horrid way.

By the way, about the "Eskimo" reference: The Residents made another LP record called ESKIMO, which is an acoustic landscapes/musical audio storytelling of Eskimo culture; including walrus hunt, arctic hysteria psychosis with soul disembodied in the dead of winter darkness, evil spirits, and a shaman Angakok sorcerer conjuring with a spell escaping from his lips a giant sea snake that rises above the billows and wiggle before the assembled crowd on the shore with its head in the clouds. Not so far separated in tone from CAS in Hyperborea actually.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 26 August, 2020 10:59PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well then, it's really *nasty*, isn't it?
> >
> > Why the repetition of the first stanza as he final
> > stanza, after the nasty commentary, do you think?
>
>
>
> Because he is a stolid blockhead who doesn't get
> her message, too stubborn and self-occupied to
> care or even listen. :/
>

But on second thought, after listening to the song again, no, I would say that is not the case at all. He admires her brilliant biting wit so much, compared to his own lame ability, that he becomes even more obsessed and enamored of her, despite her cruelty and rejection. He repeats his fawning words, because he is under her spell.

Not an uncommon situation at all. For example, it can be seen in the first lines of CAS's "The Enchantress of Sylaire".

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 26 August, 2020 11:25PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He repeats his fawning words, because he is under her spell.

BLUE ROSEBUDS

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2020 10:41AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He repeats his fawning words, because he is
> under her spell.
>
> BLUE ROSEBUDS

Thanks for including the link, K; I'd never actually heard anything they did.

I have two responses:

1) The Residents must be what's termed "an acquired taste", right?

2) It'll be a long time before we hear another band's cover of "Blue Rosebuds".

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2020 11:36AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for including the link, K; I'd never
> actually heard anything they did.
>
> I have two responses:
>
> 1) The Residents must be what's termed "an
> acquired taste", right?
>
> 2) It'll be a long time before we hear another
> band's cover of "Blue Rosebuds".

1. Yes, of course. It is not regular rock'n'roll. It is a different mindset and a different approach for the listener. It is avant-garde, it is humor and fun, and it is for a bizarre aesthetic experience. It is not music you dance to. And it is not something you put on the record player when you have invited over a girlfriend. Must all music be pleasant? I might ask the same question of movies, or literature. I had school mates in my late teens who were both horrified and ridiculing me for listening to this, implying that I was sick. Screw them. I think that was simply a mediocre lack of imagination and humor, an overly anxious need to be conformed, only willing to do what is socially approved.

The more you listen to it, the more you will hear that this music really swings in appealing rhythm, with powerful contrasts of sounds. It is primal in its force. Screw social conformity.

2. I don't know about that, other bands have made covers of their songs. But their style is very difficult to imitate. They are unique and genius.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 27 August, 2020 11:56AM
This is a piece of popular music that really appeals to me. Recorded in maybe 1969, I think:


[www.youtube.com]


Let me now if you connected with it, or not, please.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 12:58PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a piece of popular music that really
> appeals to me. Recorded in maybe 1969, I think:
>
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
>
> Let me now if you connected with it, or not,
> please.


That is a video of the female Mexican volleyball team. The background music sounds to me newer than 1969... Sounds like popular feel-good music, smooth, streaming out of cars street-cruising down the boulevard, music that panders to either love seeking, social connection, good times, or personal success, or something else I can't quite grasp. Nothing provocative about it, sounds inoffensive. Spiritually sparse. I don't dislike it. But not swept away by it either, ... perhaps would have, if I had grown up in a different social environment.

I generally prefer more aggressive guitar-driven music, different forms of metal, classic 1950s-70s rock'n'roll, Neil Young, or classical music (Mozart, Bach, ...), experimental (The Residents), mystical like Mike Oldfield, Clannad, Ravi Shankar, 1920s jazz (Bix Beiderbecke) and other historical forms that take me away from modern society.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 01:19PM
Sorry. Bad link.

This one:

[www.youtube.com]

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 02:27PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry. Bad link.
>


WHAT!? :(


Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot more interesting.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - JAPANESE CULTURE
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 03:06PM
From previous thread...


Quote:
Knygatin
Passive-aggressiveness is part of every civilized culture. Otherwise our society would have looked like a battlefield out of R. E. Howard's Conan. In European culture the intellectual debate has evolved to sidestep violence. The more repressed communication in Japanese culture can have some negative neurotic side effects, for sooner or later energy has to go somewhere. Akira Kurosawa's films examine this, and, I am sure, so do also many modern Japanese films that I have not seen.

I think it also goes into some negative areas, like porno, etc.

That there is a lot of apparent pressure is evident, and there are many safety valves.

I am not sure that the tradition Japanese view of the emperor being a literal descendant of the sun (god), and the Japanese people are hence related, but one step removed, to the sun as well--and all this implies--can survive in an increasingly cosmopolitan and interlinked world. This was workable in isolation (and to a degree Japan seems to be drifting toward isolation, relative to the 60s-90s) but the defeat in WWII changed all that.


Quote:
Knygatin
Europeans have much respect for the sophistication of Japanese culture, especially the samurai tradition, and of course technology, have made a great impression. Likewise Japanese are very curious about Western culture. There is a polite but dedicated fanbase in Japan for almost every little obscure underground cult band or artist we have (and most of us don't even know about). The Japanese are very enthusiastic. But this extreme open-mindedness also make them vulnerable and run the risk of threatening Japanese culture, from destructive liberal capitalist influences flooding the country.

Not sure I'd consider the Japanese "open-minded" so much as seeking a solid ideal to use as a template. With the unmasking of the emperor as a privileged common man, the central mystique of Shinto was broken into a million pieces. It was as if the Pope was forced by circumstance to state, publicly, that he had never had any sign, whatsoever, from the deity. A whole lot of Catholics would be devastated, but they had at least their underlying ethnic cultures to bolster them--the Irish cpuld go back to drinking, the Mexicans could go back to worshipping Xiuhpilli, or whoever--but the post war Japanese did not have even this. They had to confront the idea that there was nothing special about them, as their mythology implied, in the bigger picture, and as insular as they tended to be, this came a a shock.

I think that they then emulated the habits/customs of the victors--who, face it, were extremely kind and generous in the context of history and of Japanese experience as victors, themselves--sort of a large scale Stockholm Syndrome. They were already about halfway there, owing to the foreign policy of the Meiji era, which emphasized westernization and modernization.

So traditional Japanese culture can semi-survive in an isolated society that does not need to compare itself to the rest of the world, but outside of this space, those Japanese who are living and have lived in a more open environment, really aren't much like those still imbued with the culture. These "transplants", like my wife, retain the *core* values, like loyalty, industry, honor, collective effort, respect for elders, but balk at the levels of male domination and social stratification of many Japanese nationals.

As always, these are only my opinions and could be wrong.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Aug 20 | 03:08PM by Sawfish.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 28 August, 2020 03:07PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry. Bad link.
> >
>
>
> WHAT!? :(
>
>
> Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot more
> interesting.


I should hope so...! ;^)

What did you think?

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 12:08AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sawfish Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sorry. Bad link.
> > >
> >
> >
> > WHAT!? :(
> >
> >
> > Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot more
> > interesting.
>
>
> I should hope so...! ;^)
>
> What did you think?


I don't know. Sounds jazzy New Yorkish, or east coast big city music. Someone else should be better suited to comment that music. It was better varied than the first link you posted, which I made an effort to analyze.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - JAPANESE CULTURE
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 05:11AM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From previous thread...
>

Thank you for the further clarifications about Japanese society.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 29 August, 2020 10:54AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sawfish Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Sorry. Bad link.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > WHAT!? :(
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, the music on this new link was a lot
> more
> > > interesting.
> >
> >
> > I should hope so...! ;^)
> >
> > What did you think?
>
>
> I don't know. Sounds jazzy New Yorkish, or east
> coast big city music. Someone else should be
> better suited to comment that music. It was better
> varied than the first link you posted, which I
> made an effort to analyze.

First time I heard it, it grabbed--it was so different from anything else on popular radio (yep, was being played on the same stations that would play Janis Joplin, et al).

I've come to view it as an episodic glimpse into a living, self-induced hell, done to a sort of dirge.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 06:55AM
I know that this thread is really intimidating. It looks like a big black hole among the other threads.

But anyway. One thing I don't like with e-books, is that many of them don't respect the author's original grammatical structure. They put an empty space in between every new paragraph, which I find very annoying. Then you don't know where the author actually intended the text to be divided into a new section. Perhaps you guys don't mind so much? Perhaps the spaces are meant to make the reading easier on the eyes?

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 10:25AM
Funnily enough that app I mentioned - Calibre - allows you to reconfigure your ebooks. One option is removing the space between paragraphs (something I've always found really annoying) which in turn means they automatically get indented. I always assumed indented paragraphs (sans a space in between) were a European thing, whereas block paragraphs were an American thing? But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common feature of work emails over here).

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 11:40AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that this thread is really intimidating. It
> looks like a big black hole among the other
> threads.
>
> But anyway. One thing I don't like with e-books,
> is that many of them don't respect the author's
> original grammatical structure. They put an empty
> space in between every new paragraph, which I find
> very annoying. Then you don't know where the
> author actually intended the text to be divided
> into a new section. Perhaps you guys don't mind so
> much? Perhaps the spaces are meant to make the
> reading easier on the eyes?

Definitely there are shortcomings, but I view e-readers like a confirmed drinker would view a small hip flask: not the optimum, nor enough, but can get you by in places where a full bottle would be--AHEM!--inappropriate.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 11:45AM
When there is a space between paragraphs, it means that there is either a change of scene or jump in time. It is a bit like new chapter, but less marked. If I understand correctly.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 11:52AM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funnily enough that app I mentioned - Calibre -
> allows you to reconfigure your ebooks. One option
> is removing the space between paragraphs
> (something I've always found really annoying)
> which in turn means they automatically get
> indented. I always assumed indented paragraphs
> (sans a space in between) were a European thing,
> whereas block paragraphs were an American thing?
> But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common
> feature of work emails over here).

Hi, Cathbad. Calibre sounds interesting. I would like to ask some specific questions about it and to construct a couple of use scenarios for both .mobi and .epub files. While I'm happy enough with e-readers in general, I'm not happy about file management of the content--easy portability, etc.

I don't really care all that much about original spacing, etc. I think it's possible to butcher the spacing, and I see a lot of this, and apparently incorrect lettering from OCR scans of originals in the Project Gutenberg files, but I'm so happy to be able to have the content, gratis, that I'll blow right past it.

Besides, sadly, it appears that final proofing for hardcopy publications is slipping significantly...I see crud in hardback all the time now...

Do you have time to respond to the questions?

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 12:07PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When there is a space between paragraphs, it means
> that there is either a change of scene or jump in
> time. It is a bit like new chapter, but less
> marked. If I understand correctly.

It suggests a discontinuity of some kind, to me, although I've never seen a written explanation for this sort of use of whatespace, or any "rules" for its use.

Do you recognize a difference in intent between a three dot (or asterisk) break and extra space? I hadn't thought about it before, but a three dot break always indicates a hiatus is *always* a passage of time, I would suspect, and in that sense is a more forceful or explicit version of extra whitespace used for the same purpose.

I'm not a big fan of using punctuation to place ambiguity in a reader's mind for artistic effect; to me, punctuation is best as a clarifier. I would prefer to see intended ambiguity introduced thru word choice--as in Seer of the Cycles.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 12:30PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always assumed indented paragraphs
> (sans a space in between) were a European thing,
> whereas block paragraphs were an American thing?
> But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common
> feature of work emails over here).

Every paperback and hardcover I have read, both English and American, every book, have indented paragraphs (except the very first paragraph in a novel or short story). If there wasn't indenture in conversation text, for example, it would be impossible to follow who is saying what.

And an e-book is after all supposed to represent a book, not the structure of email communication.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:08PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do you recognize a difference in intent between a
> three dot (or asterisk) break and extra space? I
> hadn't thought about it before, but a three dot
> break always indicates a hiatus is *always* a
> passage of time, I would suspect, and in that
> sense is a more forceful or explicit version of
> extra whitespace used for the same purpose.
>

This is my understanding:

The three dots in a sentence, marks a brief stall, to let what has been said before in the sentence take root before continuing, or to make an extra mental effort to add a last thought that relates to it, and so complete the sentence. It imitates hesitation halt in real thinking or conversation.

The — sign is similar to the three dots, but marks that you are saying the last thought with strong emphasis. You want to make a strong point with the last words.

The asterisk marks a reminder of a side-thought concerning something that is related to the present text, that you would like to mention in passing, but which may be too long or distractive, so you place it at the bottom of the page instead.

The extra space means end of scene, next paragraph beginning something new in the story. Or a jump in time, for example from bedtime till next morning.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:08PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cathbad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I always assumed indented paragraphs
> > (sans a space in between) were a European
> thing,
> > whereas block paragraphs were an American
> thing?
> > But maybe not? (Block paragraphs are a common
> > feature of work emails over here).
>
> Every paperback and hardcover I have read, both
> English and American, every book, have indented
> paragraphs (except the very first paragraph in a
> novel or short story). If there wasn't indenture
> in conversation text, for example, it would be
> impossible to follow who is saying what.

What are your feelings about unconventional punctuation that some authors seem to insist on?

Me, I've never seen that it *adds* anything, but at the same time, after I got used to it, it didn't actually impair my enjoyment, either.

Seems to me like a non-issue, perhaps a statement of ego as much as aesthetics.

>
> And an e-book is after all supposed to represent a
> book, not the structure of email communication.

It's a compromise; it's not an either/or. A lot like mass-publication softbacks as compared to premium hardbacks.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:28PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> What are your feelings about unconventional
> punctuation that some authors seem to insist on?
>
> Me, I've never seen that it *adds* anything, but
> at the same time, after I got used to it, it
> didn't actually impair my enjoyment, either.
>

Actually, I don't know what that is. It doesn't ring a bell for me. Something connected with modern writers perhaps? I don't read much of modern writers.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 01:47PM
Cormac McCarthy is a good example. He uses no quotation marks.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 02:51PM
A dash (instead of quotation marks) is a very 19th century European thing. Maybe French? The Irish writer James Joyce wrote all his books using a dash instead of quotation marks, with the result that his many imitators do the same. Nowadays, I think it's meant to indicate to the reader that this is a serious 'literary' work. Personally I don't like it, but (as with anything) you get used to it.

Browsing the internet suggests block paragraphs may have become more popular due to how text is formatted by computers/computer applications, ie, most blogs and websites use block paragraphs rather than indentation - this website being a case in point!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2020 03:44PM
McCarthy uses no marks to indicate direct speech; it's all contextual. I don't think he accomplishes anything by this, but it's easier to get used to than I had thought.

Still, to me it comes off as gimmicky.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 03:45PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry that I failed to replay earlier, Knygatin.
> To my idiosyncratic ideas of politeness, that's
> rude, and I don't want to be rude.
>
> If you want used non-backlit, in Kindle format,
> this is a decent choice:
>

Ha ha, nothing rude there, and no obligations to me. ;) Thanks a lot for all the information about e-readers you gave me in the Weird Folklore thread. If I can't make up my mind about which one to settle for from that, I never will. Not a 100% sure though I really want an e-reader. As mentioned before, I enjoy reading digital pdf books (all epub and mobi can be converted too) on my computer screen, which is good size. When travelling, I usually bring a paperback, or light book, along; I can smell the paper too.


>
> ... two things make
> e-readers worth having: you can get many free
> books online, just spontaneously, and I'm a real
> tightwad--as I small kid, I thought Scrooge McDuck
> was cool, far cooler than Superman, Sgt. Rock,
> etc...
>

Then you're not a bibliophile, I guess? Loving books as objects in themselves. From time to time I have payed a lot for certain books I really want to own. Or sacrificed time, searching for them.


For those who are loosing sight, I'd also recommend audio books. Not all are good, but if you find a good narrator it is a real pleasure. In ways, even better than reading.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2020 05:04PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry that I failed to replay earlier,
> Knygatin.
> > To my idiosyncratic ideas of politeness, that's
> > rude, and I don't want to be rude.
> >
> > If you want used non-backlit, in Kindle format,
> > this is a decent choice:
> >
>
> Ha ha, nothing rude there, and no obligations to
> me. ;) Thanks a lot for all the information about
> e-readers you gave me in the Weird Folklore
> thread. If I can't make up my mind about which one
> to settle for from that, I never will. Not a 100%
> sure though I really want an e-reader. As
> mentioned before, I enjoy reading digital pdf
> books (all epub and mobi can be converted too) on
> my computer screen, which is good size. When
> travelling, I usually bring a paperback, or light
> book, along; I can smell the paper too.
>
>
> >
> > ... two things make
> > e-readers worth having: you can get many free
> > books online, just spontaneously, and I'm a
> real
> > tightwad--as I small kid, I thought Scrooge
> McDuck
> > was cool, far cooler than Superman, Sgt. Rock,
> > etc...
> >
>
> Then you're not a bibliophile, I guess? Loving
> books as objects in themselves.

Yes, that's correct, and it occurred to me that for biliophiles, e-readers aenot nearly as attractive.

> From time to time
> I have payed a lot for certain books I really want
> to own. Or sacrificed time, searching for them.
>
>
> For those who are loosing sight, I'd also
> recommend audio books. Not all are good, but if
> you find a good narrator it is a real pleasure. In
> ways, even better than reading.

Thanks!

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - ED HANDLES
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 12:58AM
To past the time, I'd like to ask the derivation of the members' posting names--their "handles".

Mine is simple...

I saw the movie Das Boot in the theater when it came out. I was strangely taken with the image of the laughing, playful sawfish on the conning tower of the U-96, the titular submarine. What got me about it was that it was rollicking, humorous, and in the film there was virtually nothing in the lives of the crew, or the function of the boat, that was in any conceivable way lighthearted or jolly, and the bitter irony was something I liked, so...

[www.themodellingnews.com]

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 02:32AM
Thank you. I thought 'Sawfish' was a humorous affirmation. Like, that you can effectively saw apart other posters' arguments. It is a very energetic image.

Knygatin is a misspelling, it should have been Knygathin, but was too late to correct after I had registered. It is the forename of Knygathin Zhaum, a favorite character, from the story "The Testament of Athammaus". His body is very plastic and formable, even his nose and face twist and stretch. It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind to remain flexible.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 05:08AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind
> to remain flexible.

And invulnerable, like Knygathin Zhaum.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 10:24AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you. I thought 'Sawfish' was a humorous
> affirmation. Like, that you can effectively saw
> apart other posters' arguments. It is a very
> energetic image.
>
> Knygatin is a misspelling, it should have been
> Knygathin, but was too late to correct after I had
> registered. It is the forename of Knygathin Zhaum,
> a favorite character, from the story "The
> Testament of Athammaus". His body is very plastic
> and formable, even his nose and face twist and
> stretch. It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind
> to remain flexible.

Hah! I should have recognized it!

I *really* liked his character, what we saw of it. He was, truly, A Force of Nature(tm) more so than a conventional character. A lot of what happened made me laugh...the futility of the legal system in dealing with him, his apparent passivity while in captivity, his outrageous selection of victims after each "execution", the mass stampede out of Commorium (a sort of urban flight to the Hyperborean suburbs? ;^) ).

Naw, I don't think about "winning arguments": our exchanges are to me pleasant and collegial. That's why I'm here. I also have opinions and usually have spend some time formulating them, so I may diagree, sometimes, but really, I want more to get my *ideas* right (logically sound) and have no silly notion that I have all the answers, because life has taught me that no one does.

To that end, I'd like to think that I'm flexible enough to modify my opinions--after all, I want to "get it right", not *be* right...

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 10:28AM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... It is a metaphor affirmation for my mind
> > to remain flexible.
>
> And invulnerable, like Knygathin Zhaum.

HAH!

...and outrageous!!! ;^)

It was as if he headed up a Pleistocene outlaw motorcycle gang!

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 10:40AM
I knew the source of Knygatin's name, but didn't realize he placed so much meaning to it. Great stuff! And ever since I learned about Sawfish's Hawaiian experience, I merely assumed his name was based on an old Polynesian tradition. Sawfishes were regarded as sacred animals. Wasn't expecting the actual inspiration!

My username is derived from the passive protagonist of a story CAS never finished, which can be seen here: [www.eldritchdark.com]

I'm hardly an old man like the narrator, but in two decades I will be, and I've been mentally preparing myself for it. I like the sound of the name, which reminds me of a fire slowly easing into a smolder after a huge conflagration. Something peaceful but energized, much like the passive yet energetic character who sees and learns some weird things.

I don't try to win arguments much myself, rather just sit on my rocking chair and pass the time whittling away at something!

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 02:26PM
Sometimes I use "Extollager." This is from the label the Kentish villagers applied, around 1820, to Samuel Palmer and his fellow young artists. Palmer is my favorite artist (I don't say he is the world's greatest artist!). You can find examples of his work online. To oversimplify, it falls into three periods:

1.His visionary period
2.His relatively conventional period, in which he painted many landscapes
3.The period of his late etchings after Milton and Vergil

The book to get hold of is Geoffrey Grigson's Samuel Palmer: The Visionary Years. The Yale book Samuel Palmer: Shadows on the Wall is good for color reproductions of his work.

[www.goodreads.com]

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 03:23PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Samuel Palmer is my favorite artist (I don't say he is
> the world's greatest artist!).


I love his painting of a shepherd dozing in the sunset, surrounded by his sheep. It is the cover of my John Keats collection. If there is a heaven on Earth, that way of life is it.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 07:17PM
Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm hardly an old man like the narrator, but in
> two decades I will be

I would have guessed, from your mental style of approach and good penetrativeness, that you are born in the 80s or early 90s, but your experience seems to tell you must be older.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 07:27PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I'm hardly an old man like the narrator, but in
> > two decades I will be
>
> I would have guessed, from your mental style of
> approach and good penetrativeness, that you are
> born in the 80s or early 90s, but your experience
> seems to tell you must be older.


That's because I'm not like most people. I wanted to avoid mentioning this but I spent much of my life as a socially isolated slave of my Asian family. I only learned how to get out of it very late in life. The primary reason my wife became my ex-wife is because my growth was stunted for so long, but I don't want to talk about that here, friendly as you all are.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 09:01PM
Cathbad was a druid from an old Irish Epic - the Tain. The story has a huge cast, which means no head-scratching when you have to decide on a name for your new avatar!

Samuel Palmer's work always looked amazingly modern to me - not unlike the sort of graphic art that was common back in the Sixties and Seventies.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 8 September, 2020 11:16PM
Cathbad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Samuel Palmer's work always looked amazingly
> modern to me - not unlike the sort of graphic art
> that was common back in the Sixties and Seventies.

My mind reels here. Do you mean those posters that sometimes used black velvet for the blacks, and very bright colours in-between? This makes me miss the 70s so much, that I want to go back in a time machine now immediately.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general
Posted by: Cathbad (IP Logged)
Date: 9 September, 2020 05:10AM
LOL. I was actually thinking in terms of his black and white stuff, as it reminds me a lot of certain British illustrators - Charles Keeping, for example

[thekeepinggallery.wordpress.com]

[commons.wikimedia.org]

Sure the subject matter is very different, but the technique is kind of similar - basically, pen-and-ink, with heavy black outlines enclosing a finer network of lines - the suit of mail in the case of the viking, the leaves of the oak in the case of 'Early Morning'.

My guess is I probably saw Keeping's stuff first and when I saw Palmer's work, assumed they were the same generation? I remember being surprised at the similarities (which don't seem so pronounced now, in fairness).

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general = F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 9 September, 2020 10:05PM
I've been thinking today of some of the authors I've read, and it occurred to me that there are guys I'm *supposed* to like (or their work, rather), according to my old profs, but did not, and do not.

Fitzgerald is one of them. Never could get my head around *why* The Great Gatsby is thought to be special.

Any other EDers have similar experiences with well-respected authors/works?

On the other hand, Stephen Crane completely blows me away...

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - photo
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2020 06:58PM
Looking thru the photos of CAS on this site, looking at some of the rural backgrounds, were like a trip back into my youth.

Of particular nostalgic interest is this one:

[www.eldritchdark.com]

On the desk in front of him is something many older people who lived their youth in CA would recognize instantly: an abalone shell.

These were *all over the place* so far as availability. In the 1950 and 60s, these shells were still readily available on the beach, in various stages of being eroded by wave action, and many people were still able to harvest large ones off the rocks of the Central CA coast at low tides. I, myself, in the early 70s, was able to find small ones the size of silver dollars secreted in rock cracks. These were too small to take. I could still find the occasional medium-sized shell on secluded beaches. This was in San Luis Obispo county, just south of Monterey county.

Just outside Santa Barbara, along US 101, was an abalone processing plant, with a pile of these shells the size of a large haystack. These were still being commercially being taken from the Channel Islands, just off the coast, into the 70s.

Now, none are available in the wild. It's less over-harvesting (although that was certainly a factor) than understanding that the abundance in the 19th to mid-20th C was the result of a confluence of unique environmental factors.

Based on the shell and the likely timeframe ascertained by his apparent age, this photo would have been from when he lived in Pacific Grove, which was very near a rocky area that likely would have once had lots and lots of abalone.

Times change; nothing stays the same...

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - photo
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2020 07:37PM
I have one of those shells too, given me perhaps by grandparents from California. The iridescence intrigued me as a youngster.

Re: The Super thread of literature, art, music, life, and the universe in general - photo
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 10 September, 2020 10:29PM
When we first moved up here (OR) in the late 80s, we liked to go from PDX to Manzanita, on the coast.

There was this little side road almost at the coast we could take, and it took us past on old house, the poured cement foundation walls had shells like this embedded in the cement, as a sort of rustic decoration. This shows that there were certainly quite a few up here, too.

The house has been gone for maybe 20 years now.

Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think."



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