Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I grieve and miss the happy short illusion created
> by those born in the 1940s- early 50s. They
> created the Grand Illusion and most delicious
> Self-deceit, this Temporary Window of pretended
> happiness in history, right after WW2. A brief
> Golden moment. Children in the 40s, growing up in
> the 50s and 60s, they tasted the short Best part
> of the Industrial Age, full of Hope and
> Confidence, and naive humanitarian Ideals. Born
> with Pluto in Leo, being perhaps the best
> musicians and visual artists ever, with incredible
> intuitive artistic force, wholly free of the
> self-consciousness we see in sophisticated
> art/film today. My favorite decade was the 70s,
> since I was a little kid then, and I idealized it
> long after. The "hippie-decade" (don't remember
> much of the 60s, since I was too young then), the
> 70s was really the sunset of this Golden period,
> with the greatest music, art, and movies, created,
> with the greatest intuitive authority; Neil Young,
> Corben, ... This generation were Masters of
> passionate Illusion! In the 80s the decline
> definitely started. The 90s were a free fall of
> cynicism, irony, kitschy back-reflections, and all
> of that brief Golden period was then lost. The
> 2000s and 2010s were a living nightmare of
> intentional Deception. And the next step is
> Totalitarianism.
>
> What perplexes me is how most of that baby boom
> generation don't seem to value or miss the
> privileged time they grew up in, or grieve the
> loss of it (I miss it more than they do, even
> though I only got to taste the last few
> reflections of it); but instead they actually
> welcome the present destructive nightmare anarchy
> changes. They still hold onto those naive hippie
> ideals of World socialism, even though it has
> proven again and again not to work, not for
> society, native culture, nor for Nature or the
> environment.


Less than you think, K. You've hit upon a phenomenon that I characterized, rightly or wrongly, some years back. Here's how it has worked...

In the mid-60s thru the early 80s, you HAD to be aligned with the liberal/progressive movement, and the reason was simple: if you supported the conservative movement, you'd be saying that you were happy with the idea of being drafted and sent to VN.

It was that simple, really.

I was always a sort of middle of the road person, but I actually found myself agreeing with ancillary ideas that were associated with the reistance to VN: redistribution, AA, higher taxes, free love, etc.

So people like myself felt that the Weather Underground and the SLA were probably *good* things--Jane Fonda *must* be cool--because they were against the System, the Man, and the system would send you to Vietnam.

Then the draft and Vietnam went away and we were entering out late 20s/early 30s, and into our careers. We tasted significant money for the first time, many of us, and found it good. And the steadily increasing taxed, year after year after year, like Joe Frazier body shots, were also taking their toll--perhaps taxes were not such a good thing, after all.

But this caused cognitive dissonance, because it was pretty clear that we were becoming the Man...

Now here's where it got as you see it now.

Very man of my peers are egotistical to a degree that previous generations were not (it's common now, and expected among the succeeding generations--it's called "Attitude") and were well aware that not 10 years earlier they had loudly and publicly proclaimed their know-it-all disgust and disdain for the System, and yet here they were, not only a part of it, but advancing it more vigorously than their predecessors. So, basically, they denied connection with the System, while actively deriving the benefits from it.

Much like folks like Soros and Buffett.

It's good to recall that Reagan won two landslide victories and he could not have done this without a whole lot of Boomer votes.

So basically, the successful college Boomers were/are lying, dog-faced pony soldiers, with very little philosophically in common with the emergent Millennials and Zoomers, except that we were saying pretty much the same silly things, with almost, but not quite, the same level of smug self-assurance.

So, K, my question to you, right straight from the classic film, The Warriors, is...

"Can you dig it?"

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Less than you think, K. You've hit upon a
> phenomenon that I characterized, rightly or
> wrongly, some years back. Here's how it has
> worked...
>
> In the mid-60s thru the early 80s, you HAD to be
> aligned with the liberal/progressive movement, and
> the reason was simple: if you supported the
> conservative movement, you'd be saying that you
> were happy with the idea of being drafted and sent
> to VN.
>

I definitely don't sympathize with going to Vietnam. I don't sympathize with any foreign wars (((USA))) goes to. Conservatives were tricked into thinking that was a good thing.

>
> Very man of my peers are egotistical to a degree
> that previous generations were not (it's common
> now, and expected among the succeeding
> generations--it's called "Attitude") and were well
> aware that not 10 years earlier they had loudly
> and publicly proclaimed their know-it-all disgust
> and disdain for the System, and yet here they
> were, not only a part of it, but advancing it more
> vigorously than their predecessors. So, basically,
> they denied connection with the System, while
> actively deriving the benefits from it.
>

That is my observation too. I know a neighbour, born in 1940, a very smug man, who breasted himself when young as a Maoist communist, and at the same time living as a well to do capitalistic materialist, being greedy and ungenerous (while accusing others of being the same). Expert on bragging self-aggrandizement, wearing "goodness" and "humanism" as a thin veneer.
A generation very good at splendid pretension, and the other side of the coin, self-denial; but also, here is one of the keys I think to them being fantastic performance artists, such as musicians. Minds able to absorb and totally engulf sensations in a grand way. (I am groping my way after words here.)

>
> So, K, my question to you, right straight from the
> classic film, The Warriors, is...
>
> "Can you dig it?"

Yeah, I think I can understand it.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Less than you think, K. You've hit upon a
> > phenomenon that I characterized, rightly or
> > wrongly, some years back. Here's how it has
> > worked...
> >
> > In the mid-60s thru the early 80s, you HAD to
> be
> > aligned with the liberal/progressive movement,
> and
> > the reason was simple: if you supported the
> > conservative movement, you'd be saying that you
> > were happy with the idea of being drafted and
> sent
> > to VN.
> >
>
> I definitely don't sympathize with going to
> Vietnam. I don't sympathize with any foreign wars
> (((USA))) goes to. Conservatives were tricked into
> thinking that was a good thing.
>
> >
> > Very man of my peers are egotistical to a
> degree
> > that previous generations were not (it's common
> > now, and expected among the succeeding
> > generations--it's called "Attitude") and were
> well
> > aware that not 10 years earlier they had
> loudly
> > and publicly proclaimed their know-it-all
> disgust
> > and disdain for the System, and yet here they
> > were, not only a part of it, but advancing it
> more
> > vigorously than their predecessors. So,
> basically,
> > they denied connection with the System, while
> > actively deriving the benefits from it.
> >
>
> That is my observation too. I know a neighbour,
> born in 1940, a very smug man, who breasted
> himself when young as a Maoist communist, and at
> the same time living as a well to do capitalistic
> materialist, being greedy and ungenerous (while
> accusing others of being the same). Expert on
> bragging self-aggrandizement, wearing "goodness"
> and "humanism" as a thin veneer.
> A generation very good at splendid pretension, and
> the other side of the coin, self-denial; but also,
> here is one of the keys I think to them being
> fantastic performance artists, such as musicians.
> Minds able to absorb and totally engulf sensations
> in a grand way. (I am groping my way after words
> here.)
>
> >
> > So, K, my question to you, right straight from
> the
> > classic film, The Warriors, is...
> >
> > "Can you dig it?"
>
> Yeah, I think I can understand it.

I think you have it right: self-satisfied hypocrites, many of them.

Regarding the draft: if you want to have some fun, sit in front of a Millennial or Zoomer and explain the way the draft worked. It is so incomprehensible to them, in so many ways, that they'd *like* to say that you're lying, just like when you try to tell them that in all honesty, everyone now identified as oppressed--women, people of color, gays--gave every evidence of being *a lot* happier at that time than now.

They will tell you to your face that this was not the case--that the black friends I had at the time were consistently acting happy, but were not--they were faking out of fear of me. Of course, none of these same self-appointed arbiters morality were there to witness what I was describing, but this matters not at all. They are DEAD CERTAIN. It could not be otherwise.

So back to the draft. Tell them that it was a system based on biological sexual identity, that took people without resorting to identity-based quotas, against their will, very much like a form of limited slavery. And the underlying concept was the sublimation of the individual to the stated needs of the society as a whole. Now, one need not agree with those needs, but never the less, one's individual wishes were expected to take a back seat.

None of these things seem to them familiar in any sense--wholly as inconceivable as same-sex marriage was back then--and the look on their faces is worth a whole lot.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regarding the draft: if you want to have some fun,
> sit in front of a Millennial or Zoomer and explain
> the way the draft worked. It is so
> incomprehensible to them, in so many ways, that
> they'd *like* to say that you're lying, just like
> when you try to tell them that in all honesty,
> everyone now identified as oppressed--women,
> people of color, gays--gave every evidence of
> being *a lot* happier at that time than now.

There is a wonderful film, that has been banned, called The Song of the South. It is not about the slavery, although it is set in that time, it is about the friendship between a very sympathetic black man and a white boy. A film with much living wisdom. But the (((ruling elite))) will not accept that, they prefer to popularize and promote "gangster rap" and hatred, stirring conflict between groups, and particularly hatred against white men. The Millennials and Zoomers have been swayed into supporting that.

>
> They will tell you to your face that this was not
> the case--that the black friends I had at the time
> were consistently acting happy, but were not--they
> were faking out of fear of me. Of course, none of
> these same self-appointed arbiters morality were
> there to witness what I was describing, but this
> matters not at all. They are DEAD CERTAIN. It
> could not be otherwise.
>
> So back to the draft. Tell them that it was a
> system based on biological sexual identity, that
> took people without resorting to identity-based
> quotas, against their will, very much like a form
> of limited slavery. And the underlying concept was
> the sublimation of the individual to the stated
> needs of the society as a whole. Now, one need not
> agree with those needs, but never the less, one's
> individual wishes were expected to take a back
> seat.
>

Yes, I find that the Millennials (not so sure about Zoomers) can be very loud, much like their parent generation was.

I belong to the early Generation X. We can be know-it-alls too, but prefer to deep-dive into the soul rather than the broader society issues. We were a lot more quietly struggling, like the Silent Generation, our parents. And got caught in the bad times of unemployment starting in the 90s, when the Silent Generation and Boomers had already established their positions. I don't know what the particular weakness is of Generation X. Probably that of falling back into brooding self-pity.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Regarding the draft: if you want to have some
> fun,
> > sit in front of a Millennial or Zoomer and
> explain
> > the way the draft worked. It is so
> > incomprehensible to them, in so many ways, that
> > they'd *like* to say that you're lying, just
> like
> > when you try to tell them that in all honesty,
> > everyone now identified as oppressed--women,
> > people of color, gays--gave every evidence of
> > being *a lot* happier at that time than now.
>
> There is a wonderful film, that has been banned,
> called The Song of the South. It is not about the
> slavery, although it is set in that time, it is
> about the friendship between a very sympathetic
> black man and a white boy. A film with much living
> wisdom. But the (((ruling elite))) will not accept
> that, they prefer to popularize and promote
> "gangster rap" and hatred, stirring conflict
> between groups, and particularly hatred against
> white men. The Millennials and Zoomers have been
> swayed into supporting that.
>
> >
> > They will tell you to your face that this was
> not
> > the case--that the black friends I had at the
> time
> > were consistently acting happy, but were
> not--they
> > were faking out of fear of me. Of course, none
> of
> > these same self-appointed arbiters morality
> were
> > there to witness what I was describing, but
> this
> > matters not at all. They are DEAD CERTAIN. It
> > could not be otherwise.
> >
> > So back to the draft. Tell them that it was a
> > system based on biological sexual identity,
> that
> > took people without resorting to identity-based
> > quotas, against their will, very much like a
> form
> > of limited slavery. And the underlying concept
> was
> > the sublimation of the individual to the stated
> > needs of the society as a whole. Now, one need
> not
> > agree with those needs, but never the less,
> one's
> > individual wishes were expected to take a back
> > seat.
> >
>
> Yes, I find that the Millennials (not so sure
> about Zoomers) can be very loud, much like their
> parent generation was.
>
> I belong to the early Generation X. We can be
> know-it-alls too, but prefer to deep-dive into the
> soul rather than the broader society issues. We
> were a lot more quietly struggling, like the
> Silent Generation, our parents. And got caught in
> the bad times of unemployment starting in the 90s,
> when the Silent Generation and Boomers had already
> established their positions. I don't know what the
> particular weakness is of Generation X. Probably
> that of falling back into brooding self-pity.

I've gotten along very well with GenX as they emerged in the 80s/90s. There's a self-deprecating humor.

But I agree with you about a tendency to brood--existentially brood, not over silly stuff like proper proportional representation. This produced grunge, the last significant musical genre to which I felt drawn, by its honesty and raw emotions, if nothing else.

But one effective temporary cure for brooding is heroin, and it struck that gen hard.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've gotten along very well with GenX as they
> emerged in the 80s/90s. There's a self-deprecating
> humor.
>
> But I agree with you about a tendency to
> brood--existentially brood, not over silly stuff
> like proper proportional representation. ...
>
> But one effective temporary cure for brooding is
> heroin, and it struck that gen hard.

I have been lucky in that sense. My drug has been Lovecraft, Clark Aston Smith, and other greats of literature and art. And I have been rather restrained with alcohol and nicotine, concerned to keep my brain and senses intact. So my body remains healthy. But the impracticality of continuous escapism has its disadvantages of course.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I've gotten along very well with GenX as they
> > emerged in the 80s/90s. There's a
> self-deprecating
> > humor.
> >
> > But I agree with you about a tendency to
> > brood--existentially brood, not over silly
> stuff
> > like proper proportional representation. ...
> >
> > But one effective temporary cure for brooding
> is
> > heroin, and it struck that gen hard.
>
> I have been lucky in that sense. My drug has been
> Lovecraft, Clark Aston Smith, and other greats of
> literature and art. And I have been rather
> restrained with alcohol and nicotine, concerned to
> keep my brain and senses intact. So my body
> remains healthy. But the impracticality of
> continuous escapism has its disadvantages of
> course.


Yes, but it's the best thing available.

I finally figured out what Hunter S. Thompson was doing, with his gonzo journalism, besides earn a decent living.

His narrative POV, driven to excessive drug use to the point of the onset of unreality, is what a moral earnest person, finding himself in the last half of the @0th C, in the USA, is driven to by the constant non sequiturs passed along as the normal course of existence.

It is escape to attempt to cope with it, it is that bad.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Great Literature and Art is more truthful and essential to our senses than the confusion of battling with everyday living and mundane communication, and it is especially more truthful than the madness of present society in Europe and USA (and, I am afraid, Japan has been pulled along recently as well, although not as gravely. Hope they will stand their ground.).

So it is a good and healthy "drug"!

I wonder what possible societies may be more sensible and mentally well today? I tend to romanticize South America. And a few small "islands" in Eastern Europe. Australia? Nooo! New Zeeland ...?

My intellectual as well as emotional and imaginative debt to Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Charles Williams, G. K. Chesterton, and Arthur Machen -- to name some authors I have been reading for over 40 years -- is beyond calculation. I can try to articulate it, and could go pretty far, and yet there would be things that would elude my awareness or ability to express them precisely.

What have we learned from our reading? from our favorite authors? What that was new to us, and what that was something we already sensed but had never articulated so well as by them?

Yes, Dale, our appreciation can be enormous, limitless! And when we start thinking creatively, inspired by our favorite writers & artists, we soar yet higher in ecstasy!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I have been rather
> restrained with alcohol and nicotine, concerned to
> keep my brain and senses intact. So my body
> remains healthy.
>

I am afraid I wasn't quite honest there. I have a serious addiction, ... to sweets. I cannot handle it. I really need to cut down on it.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My intellectual as well as emotional and
> imaginative debt to Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Charles
> Williams, G. K. Chesterton, and Arthur Machen

I might have added William Blake, Colin Wilson, E. F. Schumacher, & some others.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Dale, our appreciation can be enormous,
> limitless! And when we start thinking creatively,
> inspired by our favorite writers & artists, we
> soar yet higher in ecstasy!

I'd welcome it if you wanted to elaborate. I guess I feel I have more of a sense of what dismays you than of what delights you.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, Dale, our appreciation can be enormous,
> > limitless! And when we start thinking
> creatively,
> > inspired by our favorite writers & artists, we
> > soar yet higher in ecstasy!
>
> I'd welcome it if you wanted to elaborate. I
> guess I feel I have more of a sense of what
> dismays you than of what delights you.

Hah! That's an amusing idea!

Take various ED members and try to characterize them from what you've read on ED.

Several here, myself among them, are DEEPLY troubled by an erosion of positive cultural norms that we were raised with, perhaps had troubles in accommodating for a while, but came to see the evolved wisdom in many of these norms. They tend to preserve what's best in the western European systems.

[BTW, this backwards slippage is characterized in "Sawfish's One Way Valve hypotheis... :^) ]

Some are deeply concerned with the ephemeral, its perception, and its intrinsic nature.

Some are excellent and well read scholars, whether by profession or avocation, it doesn't matter.

It's a fine place to spend your free time!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, Dale, our appreciation can be enormous,
> > limitless! And when we start thinking
> creatively,
> > inspired by our favorite writers & artists, we
> > soar yet higher in ecstasy!
>
> I'd welcome it if you wanted to elaborate. I
> guess I feel I have more of a sense of what
> dismays you than of what delights you.


I am foremost a truth-seeker. It appalls me that people live in denial, and I find it incomprehensible. But I guess it is the other side of the coin in a society controlled under deceitful rulership. I want to uncover lies, no matter how unpleasant or disturbing. There is one reason why I am attracted to Ingmar Bergman's films, and his digging into the soul and its self-deceit. I find it a pleasure. I want to uncover the "big society lie", those who control behind the screens of our society and their perverse agenda. I haven't told everything here, it would simply not be tolerated, it would make you deeply upset, because it is taboo. Most people simply choose to close their eyes, pretending everything is fine and in correct order, or a few move halfway toward dispute and then stop, and back away - because (((society))) have told them to. I can't accept that. It would delight me if the truth about society can be transformed into Art, into horror and fantastic literature. There is big potential for it. It would mean part victory, and a great step forward.