Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Yes, Dale, our appreciation can be enormous,
> > > limitless! And when we start thinking
> > creatively,
> > > inspired by our favorite writers & artists,
> we
> > > soar yet higher in ecstasy!
> >
> > I'd welcome it if you wanted to elaborate. I
> > guess I feel I have more of a sense of what
> > dismays you than of what delights you.
>
>
> I am foremost a truth-seeker. It appalls me that
> people live in denial, and I find it
> incomprehensible. But I guess it is the other side
> of the coin in a society controlled under
> deceitful rulership. I want to uncover lies, no
> matter how unpleasant or disturbing. There is one
> reason why I am attracted to Ingmar Bergman's
> films, and his digging into the soul and its
> self-deceit. I find it a pleasure. I want to
> uncover the "big society lie", those who control
> behind the screens of our society and their
> perverse agenda. I haven't told everything here,
> it would simply not be tolerated, it would make
> you deeply upset, because it is taboo. Most people
> simply choose to close their eyes, pretending
> everything is fine and in correct order, or a few
> move halfway toward dispute and then stop, and
> back away - because (((society))) have told them
> to. I can't accept that. It would delight me if
> the truth about society can be transformed into
> Art, into horror and fantastic literature. There
> is big potential for it. It would mean part
> victory, and a great step forward.

What is the closest approach in art that you are aware of, and that we may be familiar with?

E.g., Catch 22 is comic, but by God, it captures a sort of mindset very well.

Also, I'm currently reading The Communist Manifesto. Your description of these controlling agents is an almost perfect match for what he calls the bourgeoisie. Are you familiar with his thinking on class?

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Knygatin Wrote:

> I am foremost a truth-seeker. It appalls me that
> people live in denial, and I find it
> incomprehensible. But I guess it is the other side
> of the coin in a society controlled under
> deceitful rulership.

Your comment reminded me of something I must have read a few years ago, though I can't say I've really followed up on it. But anyway, "Dr. James Willingham" commented:

----I think it is remarkable that Lewis should focus in on the existence of a conspiracy that runs things (with deleterious effects, of course), but it is even more extraordinary that he should in a list of conspirators include the name of a real conspirator, Cecil Rhodes, one that would be discussed in a book that gave way the secret of a conspiracy that runs things and discusses Rhodes at some lengths. I refer to Carroll Quigley’s Tragedy and Hope published about a quarter of a century after Lewis trilogy. Dr. Quigley was professor at Georgetown University and was Mr. Clinton’s Mentor; he also recommended him for his Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford.-----

Source:

[theimaginativeconservative.org]

You might enjoy That Hideous Strength, one of a handful of my all-time favorite novels. I don't know if Quigley's Tragedy and Hope is relevant as I haven't read it. I wonder if it's something I should get hold of. There are a few copies available used at abebooks.com, but only one at a low enough price that I'd consider it.

Knygatin Wrote:

> I am foremost a truth-seeker. It appalls me that
> people live in denial, and I find it
> incomprehensible. But I guess it is the other side
> of the coin in a society controlled under
> deceitful rulership. I want to uncover lies, no
> matter how unpleasant or disturbing.

I hope you get the chance to read Owen Barfield's novella Night Operation.

[journals.wheaton.edu]

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> What is the closest approach in art that you are
> aware of, and that we may be familiar with?
>
> E.g., Catch 22 is comic, but by God, it captures a
> sort of mindset very well.
>
> Also, I'm currently reading The Communist
> Manifesto. Your description of these controlling
> agents is an almost perfect match for what he
> calls the bourgeoisie. Are you familiar with his
> thinking on class?

The bourgeoisie are just puppets in a market economy, allowed limited freedom. And I think the intention is to remove them in the New World Order. They have no place in World socialism controlled by a small capitalist elite. No operating units that could grow independently stronger have a place in it.

I have not read Marx. Or Catch 22.

The closest approach in literature I am aware of, describing a similarity to the nightmare society that is closing in upon us, is Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, Orwell's 1984, Hartley's Facial Justice, Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron". I am sure there are many others, that approach the subject. The books of Philip K. Dick. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings of course, in more broad fantasy terms, with Sauron and his watchful eye (the watchful eye is on the dollar bills, at the top of the pyramid, i.e. Rothschild). A. E. van Vogt describes similar nightmare structures of the far future, in several of his books; Vogt's father was a travelling lawyer with insights into the deeper power structures behind municipality and government, and told his son about it. In movies Lucas's THX 1138 (take your pills!) and Carpenter's They Live come to mind.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
>
> > I am foremost a truth-seeker. It appalls me
> that
> > people live in denial, and I find it
> > incomprehensible. But I guess it is the other
> side
> > of the coin in a society controlled under
> > deceitful rulership.
>
> Your comment reminded me of something I must have
> read a few years ago, though I can't say I've
> really followed up on it. But anyway, "Dr. James
> Willingham" commented:
>
> ----I think it is remarkable that Lewis should
> focus in on the existence of a conspiracy that
> runs things (with deleterious effects, of course),
> but it is even more extraordinary that he should
> in a list of conspirators include the name of a
> real conspirator, Cecil Rhodes, one that would be
> discussed in a book that gave way the secret of a
> conspiracy that runs things and discusses Rhodes
> at some lengths. I refer to Carroll Quigley’s
> Tragedy and Hope published about a quarter of a
> century after Lewis trilogy. Dr. Quigley was
> professor at Georgetown University and was Mr.
> Clinton’s Mentor; he also recommended him for
> his Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford.-----
>

Interesting. I think Tolkien, Lewis, and the rest of the Inklings, may very well have discussed it in quiet among themselves.

Gandalf knew of the dangers of speaking loudly of such things.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The bourgeoisie are just puppets in a market
> economy, allowed limited freedom. And I think the
> intention is to remove them in the New World
> Order. They have no place in World socialism
> controlled by a small capitalist elite. No
> operating units that could grow independently
> stronger have a place in it.
>

Small private businesses are being replaced more and more by conglomerates. For example, there used to be privately owned local food and hardware stores on the street corners, with friendly personal service; not anymore, they have been replaced by the low cost international chains. The power and market control is becoming more and more centralized.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> In movies Lucas's THX 1138 (take your pills!) and Carpenter's They Live come to mind.
>

Of course, I forgot to mention Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut. Kubrick was healthy at this time, but died shortly after the premier from sudden heart-failure. It has been speculated whether he came closer to the truth than was comfortable for the (((Illuminati))), and therefore was assassinated with poison.

Polanksi's Rosemary's Baby (I have not read the book by Ira Levin) touches the fringes of it, with insight, in fantasy manner.

Uncovered photos from one of Rothschild's secret parties in 1972, with subtle Satanic imagery, such as horned masks, dismembered naked baby dolls with cracked skulls, and masks inspired by Modernism art (deconstructive, intentionally breaking down what is healthy and balanced).

More photos from and thoughts about the Satanic ball.

A Brief History of the Rothschild Family told from a more reserved perspective.

Witness of Hollywood parties with human sacrifice, connection between Eyes Wide Shut and Rothschild, and Kubrick's wife confirms her husband's intentions.

ghKnygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > What is the closest approach in art that you
> are
> > aware of, and that we may be familiar with?
> >
> > E.g., Catch 22 is comic, but by God, it captures
> a
> > sort of mindset very well.
> >
> > Also, I'm currently reading The Communist
> > Manifesto. Your description of these
> controlling
> > agents is an almost perfect match for what he
> > calls the bourgeoisie. Are you familiar with
> his
> > thinking on class?
>
> The bourgeoisie are just puppets in a market
> economy, allowed limited freedom. And I think the
> intention is to remove them in the New World
> Order. They have no place in World socialism
> controlled by a small capitalist elite. No
> operating units that could grow independently
> stronger have a place in it.

WE need to be careful with terminology here, K. I'm using bourgeoisie in the sense that Marx uses it in the Manifesto, and yep, they are the hidden controllers.

It's good to understand that there are petty bourgeoisie (I'm one) who are being eliminated by the bourgeoisie, the ruling class, and the proletariat, which would also include those now in the ranks of the homeless--assuming they had the organizational skills to form ranks, in the first place.

>
> I have not read Marx. Or Catch 22.
>
> The closest approach in literature I am aware of,
> describing a similarity to the nightmare society
> that is closing in upon us, is Bradbury's
> Fahrenheit 451, Orwell's 1984, Hartley's Facial
> Justice, Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron".

Read 451, but it's not a compelling read.

Bergeron is uncannily on the money in many ways, what with Diana Moon Glmapers' ultimagte "cancellation" of Bergeron.

Try giving it to a Millennial or Zoomer to read--not a smile, not a laugh. There's nothing funny, at all, about the fight for equality, you see.


>I am sure
> there are many others, that approach the subject.
> The books of Philip K. Dick. Tolkien's The Lord of
> the Rings of course, in more broad fantasy terms,
> with Sauron and his watchful eye (the watchful eye
> is on the dollar bills, at the top of the pyramid,
> i.e. Rothschild). A. E. van Vogt describes similar
> nightmare structures of the far future, in several
> of his books; Vogt's father was a travelling
> lawyer with insights into the deeper power
> structures behind municipality and government, and
> told his son about it. In movies Lucas's THX 1138
> (take your pills!) and Carpenter's They Live come
> to mind.

Thanks.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin wrote of a 1972 "Surrealist" party, "deconstructive, intentionally breaking down what is healthy and balanced."

What leaps to my mind is a sequence in C. S. Lewis's prescient novel That Hideous Strength in which an already weak modern man (he's a sociologist -- I kid you not!) is initiated into a government-endorsed agency that combines scientific experiment and the occult, and part of his training occurs in the Objectivity Room, in which bizarre art, including Surrealist imagery, is forced upon his attention. For example, there's a painting of the Last Supper as I recall in which, beneath the table, the viewer sees the feet of the people, and the feet are insect-like.

There's a striking passage on the same idea in something Owen Barfield wrote, but I will have to try some more to find it. This blog entry by a Barfield admirer will give some sense of it:

[owenbarfieldblog.blogspot.com]

(Update) I found the Owen Barfield passage that I was trying to recall. He criticizes, as a matter with potentially very serious consequences, the kind of art that gives us "pictures of a dog with six legs emerging from a vegetable marrow or a woman with a motorcycle substituted for her left breast." These encourage people to "see the world in that way, and, ultimately therefore, [to see] that kind of world." Saving the Appearances p. 146

There's some discussion of Barfield on art here:

[www.owenbarfield.org]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 4 Aug 21 | 12:07PM by Dale Nelson.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> WE need to be careful with terminology here, K.
> I'm using bourgeoisie in the sense that Marx uses
> it in the Manifesto, and yep, they are the hidden
> controllers.
>
> It's good to understand that there are petty
> bourgeoisie (I'm one) who are being eliminated by
> the bourgeoisie, the ruling class, and the
> proletariat, which would also include those now in
> the ranks of the homeless--assuming they had the
> organizational skills to form ranks, in the first
> place.
>

I agree that there are different ranks of the bourgeoisie, and that the upper ranks may eat the lower. Although, I see the top financial elite (I don't quite count Soros among them, although he is high and causes great havoc with his riches. He was early on employed by Rothschild, and was initiated and helped along, on condition of doing their bidding, which he gladly did.) as being above the bourgeoisie, they are not part of that community so to speak - they float over it. And they don't vote, but just watch cynically from above, profiteering from both left and right governments.

No, I don't think the proletariat had those skills in the first place. The revolution was instigated by the bank elite (i.e. Rothschild), to get at the riches of the upper classes. Rothschild also financed all the big wars since Napoleon, including WW1 and WW2. It is documented in the links above, and in The Money Masters. They early on realized, that giving loans to countries (rather than merely to individuals) was the most profitable way of increasing their vast fortunes, and establishing World political dominion.

>
> Bergeron is uncannily on the money in many ways, ...
>
> Try giving it to a Millennial or Zoomer to
> read--not a smile, not a laugh. There's nothing
> funny, at all, about the fight for equality, you
> see.
>

Horrible. It is nightmarish.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin wrote of a 1972 "Surrealist" party,
> "deconstructive, intentionally breaking down what
> is healthy and balanced."
>
> What leaps to my mind is a sequence in C. S.
> Lewis's prescient novel That Hideous Strength in
> which an already weak modern man (he's a
> sociologist -- I kid you not!) is initiated into a
> government-endorsed agency that combines
> scientific experiment and the occult, and part of
> his training occurs in the Objectivity Room, in
> which bizarre art, including Surrealist imagery,
> is forced upon his attention. For example,
> there's a painting of the Last Supper as I recall
> in which, beneath the table, the viewer sees the
> feet of the people, and the feet are insect-like.
>
>
> There's a striking passage on the same idea in
> something Owen Barfield wrote, ...:
>
> He criticizes, as a matter
> with potentially very serious consequences, the
> kind of art that gives us "pictures of a dog with
> six legs emerging from a vegetable marrow or a
> woman with a motorcycle substituted for her left
> breast." These encourage people to "see the world
> in that way, and, ultimately therefore, [to see] that kind
> of world."
>
>

Interesting. Both Lewis and Barfield had insights into this matter. Ultimately the celebration of the Surrealist can be seen as the old device of "divide and conquer" as a strategy. That of first breaking down the fundaments of a society, to be able to conquer and rule it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 5 Aug 21 | 01:02AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ultimately the celebration of
> the Surrealist can be seen as the old device of
> "divide and conquer" as a strategy. That of first
> breaking down the fundaments of a society, to be
> able to conquer and rule it.


Mass-immigration, multiculturalism, anti-whiteism, gender confusion, and feminism, are the most powerful "divide and conquer" strategies used today.

I would like to add, that I have nothing against homosexuals as such. I have had friends and work colleagues who were homosexual, and I had no problems with that; we got along very well, and had much fun. I say, leave their homosexuality alone (whatever is the cause of it, either a hormone unbalance, or some early psychological impact in relation to the mother/father), and respect them as individuals. There are a certain kind of persons, aggressively exhibitionistic and loud with their homosexuality, having a need to constantly point it out to everyone, often using vulgar language. Their heads are constantly down between their legs; I find them difficult to get along with.

No, what I oppose is the political agenda that actively promotes to normalize homosexuality, gender confusion, and even surgical changes, among young people. At the bottom of it, there is an anti-white, anti Western Civilization agenda.

And I am against child adoption for homosexual couples. Some 15 years ago there was a debate around this, and many psychologists at Red Cross and elsewhere, strongly advised against it, for the sake and health of the children. But these warnings were ignored by the politicians, and the OK flag was quickly raised, prioritizing the desires of the adults and the indiscriminate "equal rights" movement. There are sadly also child trafficking issues and pedophilia involved in this.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would like to add, that I have nothing against
> homosexuals as such. I have had friends and work
> colleagues who were homosexual, and I had no
> problems with that; we got along very well, and
> had much fun. I say, leave their homosexuality
> alone (whatever is the cause of it, either a
> hormone unbalance, or some early psychological
> impact in relation to the mother/father), and
> respect them as individuals. There are a certain
> kind of persons, aggressively exhibitionistic and
> loud with their homosexuality, having a need to
> constantly point it out to everyone, often using
> vulgar language. Their heads are constantly down
> between their legs; I find them difficult to get
> along with.
>
> No, what I oppose is the political agenda that
> actively promotes to normalize homosexuality,
> gender confusion, and even surgical changes, among
> young people. At the bottom of it, there is an
> anti-white, anti Western Civilization agenda.
>
> And I am against child adoption for homosexual
> couples. Some 15 years ago there was a debate
> around this, and many psychologists at Red Cross
> and elsewhere, strongly advised against it, for
> the sake and health of the children. But these
> warnings were ignored by the politicians, and the
> OK flag was quickly raised, prioritizing the
> desires of the adults and the indiscriminate
> "equal rights" movement. There are sadly also
> child trafficking issues and pedophilia involved
> in this.

For the sake of discussion, K, if all this is accurate, can you see why I counsel simply looking for the niches of opportunity *for one's own advancement, and for one's family's*?

Seriously, I'm not saying you're wrong factually, or wrong in your essentially confrontational approach. What I'm saying is that in my judgement, direct confrontation is bound to fail in at least 8 out of 10 contests with the putatative power structure that you postulate, and yet if you put aside your disgust and look closely, there are little crumbs, *to them*, that to you and me are large joints of meat. And yep, you can get these without too much trouble.

It's a matter of scale.

And yes, I'm still disgusted--but do you by whom? Not so much by the manipulators, but by those who permit themselves to be manipulated, and invite yet more manipulation. And bear in mind: those being manipulated by the hidden structure are your only allies against it. With friends like these, who needs...

This is why I cut myself loose long ago.

About 30-40 years ago I came up with what I thought was a pretty neat conceit: life as encompassed within an afternoon at the Roman colosseum. You have the emperor and his cronies in the choice seats, the bulk of the populace in the stands, viewing, and a smaller, though significant, number in the area, itself.

All you really have to do to live out a satisfying life is to make sure that you're in the stands, and not in the arena. And the most salient advice as to how to accomplish this relatively modest task is to not be overburdened by empathy or conscience. Not abandon them, but ration them accordingly.

It really is as simple as that.

And yep, there *are* a lot of crumbs out there, if we adopt your way of seeing it. Mine says that these are simply opportunities available in a nation of surplus wealth for those with their eyes open.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~