Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan
> > throws a knife to kill a female tribe member
> who
> > was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate.
> They
> > are going to burn her to death, and pity takes
> > hold.
>
> I actually don't recall that scene. Generally, I
> recall that, particularly in certain stories where
> Conan is a King of Aquilonia, he is less of an
> alpha male force of nature, and more of a human
> being, with a sense of responsibility to his
> subjects. For instance (IIRC), "The Phoenix on
> the Sword".

I now think that it was Kull, and not Conan. It has always been hard for me to keep Kull, Conan, and Bran Mak Morn straight.

I'll get some out of the library and check it out. Maybe I need to give it another chance. It's been 30 or more years, most likely.

BTW, did you ever read "The Barrow Troll"?

[baencd.freedoors.org]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
> I now think that it was Kull, and not Conan. It
> has always been hard for me to keep Kull, Conan,
> and Bran Mak Morn straight.

To me, Bran Mak Morn stands out from the others, since he is not really a hero, not even in the glorified anti-hero sense that Conan sometimes is. His one story as protagonist is a horror tale about a man who makes a Faustian bargain.

> I'll get some out of the library and check it out.
> Maybe I need to give it another chance.

I think you can still find most of his best work online. For instance, most of the Weird Tales issues can be found at archive.org, and his best known tales are all audiobooks on youtube. Published books will tend to supplement his best work with newly-copyrighted material. But there is no particular need to be a completist when it comes to Robert E. Howard. I do think his best work is worth reading, but the dross is quite skippable.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> > I now think that it was Kull, and not Conan. It
> > has always been hard for me to keep Kull,
> Conan,
> > and Bran Mak Morn straight.
>
> To me, Bran Mak Morn stands out from the others,
> since he is not really a hero, not even in the
> glorified anti-hero sense that Conan sometimes is.
> His one story as protagonist is a horror tale
> about a man who makes a Faustian bargain.
>
> > I'll get some out of the library and check it
> out.
> > Maybe I need to give it another chance.
>
> I think you can still find most of his best work
> online. For instance, most of the Weird Tales
> issues can be found at archive.org, and his best
> known tales are all audiobooks on youtube.
> Published books will tend to supplement his best
> work with newly-copyrighted material. But there
> is no particular need to be a completist when it
> comes to Robert E. Howard. I do think his best
> work is worth reading, but the dross is quite
> skippable.

I, too, worry about finding "the good stuff". Looking briefly at a few forums online, and Wikipedia, it sounds like he produced quite a lot of stuff in varied genres, including western.

Do you have any suggestions for some stories to read that are representative of his better efforts?

In college back in the late 60s, one of my room-mates was a big fan of Conan/Kull and I read some stuff but could not connect, so then we took to sniping at each other about it, in a sort of jocose collegiate way. Maybe this enhanced my negative impression.

Hah! The same room-mate introduced me to Fraser's Flashman series, which I *did* like...still do!

I mean, after reading *about* Howard, and excerpts from letters to HPL, he seems to me *more* interesting than his characters. He seems more of a complex personality than CAS, and at least as complex as HPL. HPL is pretty complex it seems to me.

Of the three, I'd say CAS was the most comfortable in his own skin by a long shot, then HPL, and finally Howard.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I heard someone make the connection between Ballard's Vermilion Sands and Jack Vance's Dying Earth, and that is what drew me to it. The decadence of life on old Earth, ... the same in Smith's Zothique, ... that attracts and fascinates me.

I listened to the first story in the audiobook collection, "Prima Belladonna". I don't think I quite grasped all the details (being unaccustomed to audiobooks), and it seemed surrealistic in approach too which demands a more open reader mind. I liked it in parts, especially the appearance of the exotic woman. (Her insect bug yes, not sure if that was a genetic mutation or a superficial fashion makeup.) The singing arachnid orchids were a little sketchy, but I may have missed some details. I will listen to more of the stories eventually, although the tone, and the character jargon, a little hard-boiled, was too modern and worldly for me to truly connect with. And compared to Vance's artistry I found it rather mediocre. I prefer the Faberge Egg worlds of Vance, in which every detail is sculpted, forming a unique parallel universe, where even the characters cannot be recognized from our world.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard someone make the connection between
> Ballard's Vermilion Sands and Jack Vance's Dying
> Earth, and that is what drew me to it. The
> decadence of life on old Earth, ... the same in
> Smith's Zothique, ... that attracts and fascinates
> me.
>
> I listened to the first story in the audiobook
> collection, "Prima Belladonna". I don't think I
> quite grasped all the details (being unaccustomed
> to audiobooks), and it seemed surrealistic in
> approach too which demands a more open reader
> mind. I liked it in parts, especially the
> appearance of the exotic woman. (Her insect bug
> yes, not sure if that was a genetic mutation or a
> superficial fashion makeup.) The singing arachnid
> orchids were a little sketchy, but I may have
> missed some details. I will listen to more of the
> stories eventually, although the tone, and the
> character jargon, a little hard-boiled, was too
> modern and worldly for me to truly connect with.
> And compared to Vance's artistry I found it rather
> mediocre. I prefer the Faberge Egg worlds of
> Vance, in which every detail is sculpted, forming
> a unique parallel universe, where even the
> characters cannot be recognized from our world.

Hi, K.

Thanks for your feedback. I've read the collection maybe 4-5 times, most recently a year ago.

It comes at the reader from a POV of people who live in a future resort, something like a more exclusive Palm Springs, and everything leads one to think that it *could* earth, except for things like sand rays, etc. So either future Earth or a parallel.

You can get the impression after reading more of them that things like the "insect eyes" may well be a very decadent form of cosmetic surgery that only the very most wealthy can afford and the self-indulgent would have done on themselves.

Or, alternatively, genetic manipulation for cosmetic reasons among the very wealthy and decadent.

The orchids I took to be a sort of expensive genetic manipulation for the amusement of the decadent rich.

These people who tell the stories are people who live off of catering to these wealthy, navel-gazing narcissists. They, too, have been corrupted, but are still near enough to "normal" wants/desires to be able to convey a sense of the separateness of the rich from themselves.

Like Fitzgerald's "Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me...".

It has the feel of a combo of Andy Worhol's social circle of the 70s/80s combined with Fellini's sensibilities in something like Juliette of the Spirits or Satyricon.

Very little is explained, much is suggested.

I hope it is not a waste of your time.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 27 Apr 21 | 06:41PM by Sawfish.

Thank you for the clarification, Sawfish. I think with Ballard, it is also very much a case of whether the reader connects with the tone and vision of the writing. Same with Vance of course, ... and C. A. Smith. And Tolkien. Tone and style is everything, when all comes around.

I have to admit that I too have difficulty connecting with R. E. Howard's writings, the monotony of his violent world view, although I am enormously impressed by his talent and intelligence and wisdom. He lacked a certain content enthusiasm for life (although I have not gone through his letters yet, which may prove me wrong), ... and sadly, I think there is the connection to his suicide. But he was one of the three literary giants of the Weird fiction era, together with Lovecraft and Smith, in the demigod ability to fully create worlds through the pen. Perhaps unequalled before or since.

Sawfish Wrote:
> Do you have any suggestions for some stories to
> read that are representative of his better
> efforts?

Well, for instance, have you read "The Worms of the Earth"? I did not read it until relatively recently, and was rather impressed with it.

But it may be that our tastes just differ. After all, I did enjoy most of Howard's Conan stories too, though that was longer ago.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to admit that I too have difficulty
> connecting with R. E. Howard's writings, the
> monotony of his violent world view, [...]

I agree with this to some extent. Except that I would not say I have trouble connecting. I can connect just fine, but I don't necessarily like the effect that it has on my mood if I take too much at a time. Rather, I would say that for me, Howard in modest doses is fine. But I would not want to binge on him, any more than I would want to binge on the hyper-morbidity of Clark Ashton Smith.

But the brutality of Howard's world view can be exaggerated and has been exaggerated. There is this famous quote associated with Conan: "What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women." This, however, is not from Howard's Conan -- it is not something he ever said, nor IMHO, ever would say.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have to admit that I too have difficulty
> > connecting with R. E. Howard's writings, the
> > monotony of his violent world view, [...]
>
> I agree with this to some extent. Except that I
> would not say I have trouble connecting. I can
> connect just fine, but I don't necessarily like
> the effect that it has on my mood if I take too
> much at a time. Rather, I would say that for me,
> Howard in modest doses is fine.

On reflection, yes I agree. No trouble connecting, and I don't feel bad about the violence either, ... but I find myself longing for other things, more variation, that he doesn't quite bring. The fantasy elements in the Conan stories are very repetitive, for example his monsters are usually - either a snake, a gorilla thing, or an evil demon spirit. I find that pretty dull. It seems he wants the stories to be historically plausible. (Solomon Kane has more variation. "Skulls in the Stars" with its partly Lovecraftian imagery, and "Wings in the Night" with its great monsters, are two favorites.) The focus is always on violence, and meeting a beautiful woman at the start, then proving himself worthy to her through battle, so he can finally embrace her by the end of the story. I wouldn't say that I get bored, because he is such a good writer, ... but often wish for reflective details that are less action and battle-oriented, more immersed in weird fantasy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 Apr 21 | 02:38PM by Knygatin.

Platypus, thanks, I'll try it.

True, it could be all a matter of taste, but it's good to at least try out something that a seasoned reader of Howard's works (and other works) feels is at least sound.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fantasy elements in the Conan stories are very
> repetitive, for example his monsters are usually -
> either a snake, a gorilla thing, or an evil demon
> spirit. I find that pretty dull. It seems he wants
> the stories to be historically plausible. (Solomon
> Kane has more variation. "Skulls in the Stars"
> with its partly Lovecraftian imagery, and "Wings
> in the Night" with its great monsters, are two
> favorites.)

But on the other hand, Howard also had a genuine understanding of magics and ability to create a sense of supernatural forces, on a par with more subtle authors like Machen or Blackwood, but from his own prehistoric perspective. And he could invoke nightmarish quality - I remember "Red Nails" as being very creepy.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Ballard's Vermilion Sands
>
> You can get the impression after reading more of
> them that things like the "insect eyes" may well
> be a very decadent form of cosmetic surgery that
> only the very most wealthy can afford and the
> self-indulgent would have done on themselves.
>
> Or, alternatively, genetic manipulation for
> cosmetic reasons among the very wealthy and
> decadent.
>
>

I like the imaginative futuristic concept of it. Very bizarre. CREEPY. But ..., decadence or progress? The twisted perspectives in the minds of the future will decide that. Nature has always been an inspiration, in its colors and forms, for women's makeup and clothing. Metallic mascara, big flower hats, peacock feathers. In recent years, plastic surgery. Now then, one logical extension of this, to surgically or genetically alter the whole eye into the color and form of a beautiful bug, the angled legs replacing eye-lashes, ... I don't take it for completely improbable, seeing how quick human taste and values have changed (or been manipulated) over the last few decades.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Knygatin Wrote:
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > > Ballard's Vermilion Sands
> >
> > You can get the impression after reading more
> of
> > them that things like the "insect eyes" may
> well
> > be a very decadent form of cosmetic surgery
> that
> > only the very most wealthy can afford and the
> > self-indulgent would have done on themselves.
> >
> > Or, alternatively, genetic manipulation for
> > cosmetic reasons among the very wealthy and
> > decadent.
> >
> >
>
> I like the imaginative futuristic concept of it.
> Very bizarre. CREEPY. But ..., decadence or
> progress? The twisted perspectives in the minds of
> the future will decide that. Nature has always
> been an inspiration, in its colors and forms, for
> women's makeup and clothing. Metallic mascara, big
> flower hats, peacock feathers. In recent years,
> plastic surgery. Now then, one logical extension
> of this, to surgically or genetically alter the
> whole eye into the color and form of a beautiful
> bug, the angled legs replacing eye-lashes, ... I
> don't take it for completely improbable, seeing
> how quick human taste and values have changed (or
> been manipulated) over the last few decades.

See this:

[www.cbc.ca]

I've seen this, and more--much,much more--at the HPL Film Festival in Portland, OR. 5 inch blued steel needles that come thru the cheeks, emulating cat whiskers.

...or something...

In PDX I've seen people with their tongues tattooed, the whies of the eyes, apparently. Wait service people.

Do you suppose it might be hard for these folks to get a job?

Nahhh. How could it be...? Silly of me to even consider this.

I have no problem with accepting an unnamed place and time, in a speculative fiction collection of stories, peopled by individuals with seemingly limitless money and leisure time, to come up with insect eyes.

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> See this:
>
> [www.cbc.ca]
> et-the-b-c-man-who-uses-body-modifying-technology-
> to-enhance-physical-capabilities-1.4825085
>
> I've seen this, and more--much,much more--at the
> HPL Film Festival in Portland, OR. 5 inch blued
> steel needles that come thru the cheeks, emulating
> cat whiskers.
>
> ...or something...
>
> In PDX I've seen people with their tongues
> tattooed, the whites of the eyes, apparently. Wait
> service people.
>

Modern version of punk rock. Rebels who want to chock and are desperate to acquire a unique identity, more than an attempt at beauty. And not really the rich, but investing most of what they've got, and letting the rest deteriorate.
Parallel to this, collective society is being moved in an even more extreme direction, and I wouldn't be surprised if genus manipulations will eventually become mandatory, and calling oneself "normal" will be outlawed.

In Ballard's "Prima Belladonna" the insect eyes is perhaps something that truly means beauty among the rich and privileged, transcended deep into the culture, and enhances social status. It would mean that everything else in the culture is adapted along with it, making it perfectly normal and integrated. I would like to have a looking glass into a future like that.